Dune/Spartacus

Discussion of Dune

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Dune/Spartacus

Postby LatelyDavidBass » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:00 pm

While most feel that this film is awful (unfairly), many might even agree that this Lynch's worst film (again, unfair), I feel that this movie is not nearly as bad as all that and I would even argue that Lynch's worst film is better than most.

I like Dune. I dismissed it early, but once I "got it", I was able to enjoy it in all its epic glory. I don't think it's the greatest film ever made, but it's not as horrible as many would have you to believe.

I just look at it as a studio film very similar to Spartacus. I cannot look at Spartacus as a true Stanley Kubrick film. Sure, he directed it and it has some of Stanley's moments in there, but you can tell that the final product is the vision of a big studio that poured tons of money into the thing. I think this is the problem with Dune. Too many hands in the cookie jar. Many times (to me) when lots and lots of money is given to a project, that project becomes a big sloppy mess. Maybe Dino should have let David alone and just make the kind of Dune that he wanted to.

Thoughts?

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Re: Dune/Spartacus

Postby Annie » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:42 pm

Well, I know you're new, but that's what this whole thread is about--we are the ones who still love Dune, despite David's horrible experience with it. Of course, they should have let him alone to do his own thing, but as it's been said, it would have been like 5 hours long. Anyway, the good thing that did come out of it is that David got to have final cut on Blue Velvet and has maintained that ever since.
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Re: Dune/Spartacus

Postby LatelyDavidBass » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:51 pm

Oh, no doubt. I understand that most folks here love or like Dune more than the average person. I guess the topic of discussion I was trying to get at was the similarities if Dune as a "studio film" as opposed to an "auteur's film" to Spartacus (which is the only other one that comes to mind).

I like Dune, for what it is, but it's hard to see it as a completely David's. I don't know if Kubrick felt that way about Spartacus, but it is interesting that after the release of that movie, he went on to become the Stanley Kubrick we know and love.

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Re: Dune/Spartacus

Postby Annie » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:47 am

Hmmmm, I haven't seen Spartacus in years. Had no idea it was a Kubrick film. Maybe it's kind of the same thing; not knowing anything about what Kubrick went through personally, maybe he had to make that first movie to get to his really good ones that he is well-known for. Although, I don't think he's considered as "out-there" as DL. A lot of his movies were based on books.
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Re: Dune/Spartacus

Postby moviemaker » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:03 am

Actually Spartacus was originally supposed to be directed by Anthony Mann but I believe Kirk Douglas or the studio had him fired and called up his friend Stanley (since they had done "Paths Of Glory" together) to take over the reigns. Everything was already in place, so Stanley came in at the last minute and filled the director's shoes.

The reason he left Hollywood after that was two-fold. One, he wanted to make Nabakov's book "Lolita" and no studio would touch it so he had to make it in England and two, he felt America was becoming an increasingly violent country and thought the English countryside was a good place to raise his family. Of course, this is all from memory, so don't quote me.

I think Dune has much more of David Lynch's touch (from Original designs of costumes and set pieces) to the script. Kubrick was never really a writer. But it is true Stanley always had a hand in the casting, producing and overseeing the writing and final cut, except for Spartacus. I would actually go so far as to say Spartacus is a better movie than Dune is, as much as I have a soft spot for Dune.

In any event, the only comparison is that they both did not have final cut. A big thing of course, but to say David's involvement in Dune can be compared to Kubrick involvement in Spartacus is stretching it. Lynch conceived much of Dune from the ground up and unfortunately, despite great intentions (and my personal love for the film) as a movie, it's just plain bad. I actually love the score too but once again I think Toto was something thrust upon David.

If anything, I would say, Elephant Man showed Hollywood that David Lynch could make a very classic Hollywood-type of film. It was the success of that film and his Oscar Nomination for Directing that allowed him a crack at making Dune. A movie that both directors Ridley Scott and Martin Scorcese had flirted with earlier. If anything, it would parallel Kubrick success in making his first real Hollywood film "The Killing" with it's ingenious disjointed use of time (Reservoir Dogs anyone?) that brought him to the attention of MGM and allowed Kubrick to do the Hollywood big budget film "Paths of Glory" with a star Kirk Douglas. Still not a commercial success, it was at least considered a widespread critical success.

With Dune, it was both a commercial and a critical failure and the budget was so big it basically sent Lynch to the equivalent of movie jail for directors, where Hollywood was concerned.
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Re: Dune/Spartacus

Postby SMILLSOID » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:15 pm

I too have noted the Dune/Spartacus comparisons, with regard to how these films fitted in to the directors' overall body of work. It is true that Spartacus is not a true Kubrick film, for the reasons indicated previously - and yet I feel he used the experience as a learning curve, preparing him for subsequent, more personal films. Lynch obviously was much closer to Dune than Kubrick was to Spartacus, and yet for both men, the process taught them a great deal about where the boundaries were, and how to push them. If one looks at the two directors' next films, "Lolita" and "Blue Velvet," it appears as if the process of 'working by the rules' allowed both men to subsequently break them so beautifully for the rest of their careers!
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Re: Dune/Spartacus

Postby Annie » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:26 pm

SMILLSOID wrote: If one looks at the two directors' next films, "Lolita" and "Blue Velvet," it appears as if the process of 'working by the rules' allowed both men to subsequently break them so beautifully for the rest of their careers!



Interesting point, although I'm not so sure we can include "the rest of their careers" with what David is doing now.
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Re: Dune/Spartacus

Postby SMILLSOID » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:01 am

Annie wrote:
SMILLSOID wrote: If one looks at the two directors' next films, "Lolita" and "Blue Velvet," it appears as if the process of 'working by the rules' allowed both men to subsequently break them so beautifully for the rest of their careers!



Interesting point, although I'm not so sure we can include "the rest of their careers" with what David is doing now.


What is David doing now? :?:
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Re: Dune/Spartacus

Postby Annie » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:40 pm

Um, that's the big question. The movie on TM. Singing...not making great movies like he used to...
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Re: Dune/Spartacus

Postby SMILLSOID » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:18 pm

I bet he'll make a huge comeback, using a brand new type of media. He's probably bored of film.
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