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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:46 am
by MichaelPW
No, I haven`t. Thank you for that interesting link, applesnoranges.

Our Woman in Trouble is Lost Girl.

Nikki Grace is a Woman in Trouble, too, I think.

She is the written character and created story of a tale semi-based on real-life events that took place in Poland.

I agree with that.

She figuratively sits in a hotel room where the real-life person she is based on may have been murdered as a prostitute, watching television, which may have been invented after her death but which may have come along by the time '47' was being made, as a kind of ghost of love... possibly even frozen at the very place where the making of '47' broke down.

Don`t know what the author means with ghost of love, maybe it has something to do with movies DL did before IE, but I don`t know it consciously. Ok, maybe the real-life person Lost Girl is based on have been murdered in that hotel room. But why as a prostitute? Why not as the actor of 4 7? We have to explain the TV and her being frozen. Maybe she was murdered as the actor of 4 7 and maybe this murder had something to do with the making of 4 7. Perhaps there were people who didn`t want that the story is seen on TV. So Lost Girl could see the cause of death of the person she is based on while being locked in 205. Of course, she didn`t want to die. What she did was just her work as an actor. She wanted to live with her family. But some people maybe thought that she was too much involved. And who involved her? Something inside the story I guess. Someone who hypnotized her, which led to abuse, seeing herself as a prostitute and death. Who killed her? Probably the wife who couldn`t give children to Piotrek.

The hotel is somewhere in the Baltic region, but this is not necessarily only a geographical location: it also stands in for a place that has undergone many changes and facelifts (political, industrial, national, ideological, religious), resulting in it both having a strong history and a murky, undefined quality. Ruins of former versions of itself lay everywhere (Prussia, Solidarity, Communism, atheism, Catholicism, factories, Roma, fascism, agrarian/bucolic pastorialism), like the grooves in records - find the right groove and you can hear the walls speak.


The client who may have killed the woman that LG's character is based on is similarly trapped by the terrible deed he has done.

Assume that "Lost Girl"was killed by the wife of Piotrek. But where did "Lost Girl"and Piotrek got to know each other? Maybe in the making of 4 7. Maybe Piotrek was the male lead. So who was the hypnotizer in 4 7? Maybe the director of that movie. Could be Mr. Zydowicz. But maybe Mr. Zydowicz was "just"a vehicle. Maybe he was posessed by a Bob-like spirit for a time. So that would be the final cause. And a Bob-like-spirit probably can`t be trapped ("He wasn`t there anymore in the police station.").

Whatever his reasoning, he is able to request and is granted access to re-entry from Janek.

The reasoning of the phantom to get access is probably his nature. He has to hypnotize and collect vulnerable souls. And it is the job of the two-faced god Janek to do something for the "good"side and something for the "evil"side.

He may have been murdered for his deed of killing LG's real-life character by her once-girlfriend-lover and possible neighbor.

Believe that the phantom/Crimp can`t be killed. These are Bob-like spirits.

I think that Nikki Grace is a real-life character as was "Lost Girl"a few decades before. Perhaps Nikki Grace is halfborn (maybe the other half is "Lost Girl"), because she has a husband who can`t father children, nor does she found a "full"father in the making of OHIBT ("It is happening again."). She`s pregnant from Devon, but Billy says "Go away Sue".

She is NOT Lost Boy.

That`s true. But what can this mean? It can mean that she is Lost Girl! She walked behind the marketplace, she followed the alley, she followed the way to the pallace. She entered death and the keeper (Mr. K?, 2K?, Janek?, K?, Freddy?, Bucky J?) asked her for the password. She says a word similar to Karolina and gets access (although we wouldn`t expect). Marylin mirrors Devon and evil was born. The phantom entered the soul of Devon.

I don`t agree with that the rabbits are "prisoned". They are very mighty beings being able to use magic. They help when people in certain worlds use the means by which they can make contact to them. They monitor Janek, accommodate secrets and identify things that will lead to solutions. We aren`t allowed to forget the audience. What does the audience mean? Why does the audience give applause or laugh at certain points?

When enough of these pieces come together, a cursed character might be able to break out of the repetitive, life-death-rebirth curse cycle.

Didn`t dare to think that IE is about leaving the life-death-rebirth curse cycle so far. But maybe the author is right. Maybe the rabbits help Lost Girl to escape from that cycle by giving halfborn Nikki the role in OHIBT. They give "Lost Girl"a second chance, because they have mercy.

Ultimately, 'bad' comes from trying to possess or maintain the status of a given relationship or set of circumstances across time, space and through the senses. 'Good' comes from recognizing that all things, in their original and final forms, are unified, and that splintering off and then trying to maintain these splinters is 'evil', because it both corrupts the essence of the whole, is ultimately impossible due to the transitory nature of all 'fallen' circumstances, and is reductive to the universe in its perfect holism.

Well, "Lost Girl"certainly wants to maintain the status of a given relationship at the end. And this is an advantage for Smithie`s son. We hear the singing like "And now I have to live my life"(=not being catched in the making of 4 7 anymore?). They close the doors. They separate from the rest of the world.

Think that there is no lesbian relationship somewhere in IE. Nevertheless, there is a deep contact on a deep level of consciousness (probably within the unified field) between Lost Girl and Nikki where Nikki gets the information which will lead to a fullborn Nikki.

So who is Smithy?

Either Piotrek or Lost Girl.

How about the 9 whores?

They represent thoughts of Nikki. But aren`t there 8?

Bucky J?

The one who says to us that it isn`t so easy to put the right light on the thing. On the other side he appears like a phantom (as Smithy does).

(red = quotes from nosnojsirhc)

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:40 pm
by applesnoranges
I think nosnojsirhc is one of the most creative and insightful people on the imdb board. I find that there are some things I want to post about there and some things here. Why not answer nosnojsirhc? Some of the things nosno talks about refer to other current imdb issues (e.g. like every IE board, that one has it's "LB" thread and someone suggested Lost Boy, so nosno is commenting on that theory.)

So why not post there and answer?

I don't agree with everything in the post but I admire nosno's grand vision of it, which is why I had nothing really to say about it. (I'm Berny Elms there.)

Uh ... this business of Mr. Zydowicz being the director of 4 7 seems to me, so far, something rather unfounded. We could say that Mr. Zydowicz is the horse that got led to the well as easily and then find meanings for that. Is there any reason for this idea or is it as arbitrary as it seems? I think there is plenty of reason behind my explanation of that character name, that it is the same as the name of Marek Zydowicz, but I don't see a reason for his involvement in 4 7, the invention of the record player, Billy Wilder, or anything else other than what he appears to be: the prospective new father-in-law of Nikki Grace.

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:18 am
by MichaelPW
Yes, why not post there?! I changed it a little bit and posted it now. It seems that I`m einendurchgang there.

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:15 pm
by applesnoranges
"A passageway?" I saw you and answered briefly.

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:16 am
by MichaelPW
applesnoranges wrote:"A passageway?"

That`s from: "Suchst Du etwas? - Suchst Du einen Zugang?" "Durchgang" is similar to "Zugang". Maybe Nikki makes a "Durchgang" through "Deuce 40". :)

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:59 pm
by applesnoranges
MichaelPW wrote:That`s from: "Suchst Du etwas? - Suchst Du einen Zugang?" "Durchgang" is similar to "Zugang". Maybe Nikki makes a "Durchgang" through "Deuce 40". :)

Aha! :idea: I look these things up on Beolingus so that's all I know. Well, 2 new words.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:12 am
by MichaelPW
And "Suchst Du etwas? - Suchst Du einen Zugang?" is from Janek.

Re: Queen Kelly

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:08 am
by MichaelPW
applesnoranges wrote:

Thank you for that useful one! I`m not at home and had to look what Armband is in English.

Re: Queen Kelly

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:25 am
by jina
MichaelPW wrote:Red was also the cetchup on the white shirt. And (I think) Sue sees something inside. It`s similar to a scene Norma Desmond watches in Sunset Boulevard. This scene is from a movie called "Queen Kelly" which wasn`t finished as far as I know (as 4 7). And we have a crucial scene here :-). While the husband of Sue doesn`t know where the paper is (although it is behind him), he exactly knows where the paper is in the toilet.

she does see something in the ketchup stamp, maybe it reminds her of blood, murder etc...but what does this has to do exactly with QK??
i'm a bit confused. :oops:

"There's no such thing as a bad coincidence." (LH)

could you remind me when and who says that in the film?

Re: Queen Kelly

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:05 am
by applesnoranges
jina wrote:she does see something in the ketchup stamp, maybe it reminds her of blood, murder etc...but what does this has to do exactly with QK??

I'll tell you what I think. The QK character is asking to be delivered from this wicked dream and so is whoever is dreaming this scene. Otherwise I don't think it has to do with the story of Queen Kelly. Also, there has been some discussion of the line and I think MichaelPW was one of the people who confirmed this"”the words are not from Queen Kelly but from the clip of it shown in Sunset Boulevard. In SB they appear not as subtitles but as intertitles (between the shots). So it seems to me from that that Erich von Strohneim, who made Queen Kelly with Gloria Swanson and also worked with Billy Wilder on Sunset Boulevard by playing the part of Max, allowed the QK footage to be altered in that way (by adding the titles). So that would mean that the footage we see in SB from QK is not QK itself but a fictionalized version of it, just as Norma Desmond is not supposed to be Gloria Swanson herself. So when David Lynch embeds both of these layers into IE as a third layer, he casts Karolina Gruszka in the part, it is a "remake", one of the IE themes, and she looks different from every other Gruszka character. I think these structural things are beautiful and amazing in themselves and so I don't ask much more from them. However, in the very next scene we see Karolina Gruszka going up the same stairs Dern went up but with a screwdriver in her hand and a murderous attitude. This and all the rest seems to be the wicked dream from which she wants to be delivered"”the cursed story the dreamer is dreaming, or dreaming that she is dreaming, etc.
"There's no such thing as a bad coincidence." (LH)

could you remind me when and who says that in the film?

I think it's the last line of LH; one of the detectives.

Re: Queen Kelly

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:39 am
by jina
it's all very interesting the way it connects to the whole thing.
i haven't clear it up in my mind yet, but you just put it down very well in your post.

i feel that there's a connection to the way the leads of OHIBT are absorbed in their characters like Norma Desmond is in SB.
now, i have seen SB only once and some time ago, so i' m not sure.

i wrote something similar about it on the IMDB - IE mb.

Re: Queen Kelly

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:12 pm
by Carl
I think perhaps the 'Cast out this wicked dream' scene of LG praying is the one scene from 47 that is shown in IE, the same as the corresponding one from QK was shown in SB.

Re: Queen Kelly

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:52 pm
by jina
yes Carl, i think you got it. the scene of LG praying is from 4 7.
same with SB and QK.
a film in a film.

Re: Queen Kelly

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:29 am
by MichaelPW
Carl wrote:I think perhaps the 'Cast out this wicked dream' scene of LG praying is the one scene from 47 that is shown in IE, the same as the corresponding one from QK was shown in SB.

Never thought about that possibility, but maybe it is true. Interestingly the lead in QK was proposed to pray and ask for forgiveness for her sins. But what she really did is that she prayed and asked for a further opportunity for sins. Anyway, that "Dern" is reminded here on "Gruszka" is a further hint that "Dern" was "Gruszka".

Re: Queen Kelly

Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:33 am
by applesnoranges
And when we see Gruszka going up the same stairs with a screwdriver she also wears her hair in a pony tale. Not in any other scene. Otherwise only Dern's character wears a pony tail.