This Is The Street

[applesnoranges]

Thank you very much for describing this additional material. I will have to get it somehow. Maybe Lynch didn't integrate it to have an unfinished movie like 47 and Queen Kelly.

That's a thought. The process must have been similar for von Stroheim who also had grand, far reaching ideas. His solution, so I read, was to make a seven hour film, but that didn't work out. I think Lynch shot on this movie for something like two years, so I wonder how many more "more things that happened" there are that we have not seen yet. Yes, I hope you can find a way to see it.

btw, just passing this on in case you haven't seen: In a DVD player, in this version anyway, if you hit the "previous chapter" button on the remote, just after you see "Absurda", there is another scene. On a computer this can be seen by going to the "sound setup" menu and mouse over the picture of the gun until you see a rabbit appear, then click on the rabbit.

It makes me understand the movie much more. It`s like an explaining scene for the scene in which Nikki doesn`t understand. It`s like an explanation of what is really going on.

Interesting that you say that because I don't think I mentioned this: When Nikki is hearing Kingsley describe the unfinished movie, she says, "I don't understand". She also says that to Piotrek's father in the "meet the parents" scene. This is exactly what Lost Girl says to the phantom when he says she must let him hold her hand. Another similarity is that Nikki does not speak Polish and in the watch scene neither does Lost Girl; the phantom tries to speak Polish to her and she doesn't understand so he speaks English. When she doesn't understand he questions if she is Polish (I get that much though I don't know exactly what he says, something, I think, like "You are a Polish woman?") Then she says, "I don't speak it." Exactly what Nikki says.

So for me the phantom and crimp are like the "Bob-spirit" ("SaSaSa"), who`s collecting souls himself. "Bob" is inside her for a while. Until she bleeds it out. It was red.

Yes, he seems like that to me too. It seemed to me when watching TP that the Black Lodge people were characters or ideas who wanted to become real people so they were always trying to work themselves into the story and the Bookhouse Boys were there to keep them out. The men at the séance and Janek seem to be doing the same thing.

[MichaelPW]

find a way to see it

Think that I will import it next month. It`s lilke in the 90s, in which we had to wait for the last Twin Peaks episodes here in Germany. I'm eager to see the "temple-scene".

On a computer this can be seen

It seems that I haven`t the necessary equipment, because if I'm trying to watch the movie on my computer it says "The file number 1 has invalid format".

because I don't think I mentioned this

Yes, I had the parents-scene in mind. So the scene you described is like a key-scene for knowing that Nikki has something to do with "a soul-collector".

[MichaelPW]

Obviously there is no plan for releasing MTTH in Germany (or Europe) until know and I can`t play code1-DVDs. Maybe I will try Bergman then...

[applesnoranges]

It seems that I haven`t the necessary equipment, because if I'm trying to watch the movie on my computer it says "The file number 1 has invalid format"..

Of course what I see is on a region 1 disk. Is there a "sound setup" menu (that let's you set the kind of sound, whether you want to see French sutitles, etc.? On that screen is there a close up of the gun being fired with sparks shooting from it? On my disk, if I move the mouse over that gun, a little yellow rabbit appears. Then I click the rabbit. Is that where you are getting the "invalid format" message?

The scene is another little bit of the monolog where she tells more about the Marine's sister.

I don't know how it works but I've heard people say for sure that there is software to override the disk regions. There are 90 minutes of scenes so I can't see why they would not release them there. There are some I can't even describe, there is more of the monolog, etc.

[MichaelPW]

Is that where you are getting the "invalid format" message?

No, I can`t see anything from the DVD, when I put it in my computer-DVD-player. I only can view it with my stand-alone-DVD-player.

The scene is another little bit of the monolog where she tells more about the Marine's sister.

What does she tell about her? If it`s hidden - I can imagine - that the content could be really important.
What I really like about the monolog is the story about the phantom - how it wasn`t suddenly there anymore at the police station.
And this theme about the chemistry factory is really obscure. Reminding on scenes from Eraserhead.

There are 90 minutes of scenes so I can't see why they would not release them there. There are some I can't even describe, there is more of the monolog, etc.

Yes, but I think that this could take years. But to have an idea about the "soul-collector-scene" I think I can try to get to know a little bit more about Ingmar Bergman movies. Thank you for your comparison. Until know I think I only know Fanny and Alexander and in that movie I really liked the scene with this "singing jew" nearly at the end. Persona stands on my wishlist since long - didn`t know that it is from Bergman until know. But there seems to be a nice DVD-box with nine movies from the director.

Is there anywhere something more about the phantom or about her dead son in the monolog in MTTH?

[applesnoranges]

"No, I can`t see anything from the DVD, when I put it in my computer-DVD-player. I only can view it with my stand-alone-DVD-player.

Well back to square one: aren't there inexpensive players that work with batteries, like to take on a trip? One bought from a US source should play region 1 disks.

What does she tell about her? If it`s hidden - I can imagine - that the content could be really important.

I think it was included as a fun surprise, though it's a dreadful kind of fun. It's a continuation of the story in the feature. She says the girl was taken to a children's prison where she forced a guard to help her escape then beat her to death with her own club and threw her into a ditch. A truck driver stopped and picked her up. The monolog, as I remember it, goes:

" "”Where you headed?", he says.
"”Where you're going baby, she says. She was eight years old at the time. She'd be about sixteen now. No one who knew her's seen her since."

The interesting things about it for me are:

1. It tells even more horrifying details about the girl, which adds credence to the theory that the whole thing was dreamed by her. At the end she introduces the party and is quite happy. For all we know, she could be an ordinary girl who had a bad dream.

2. When Dern begins to say this, she says, "And guess what! She killed a woman guard!" and has a big grin on her face and is sort of laughing. Perhaps more evidence that the girl is the dreamer.

3. It adds more time disorientation. The Dern character is present time because the street girls she meets got paid by someone in Euro. (That's also in MTTH). So what she says means that this story happened 8 years ago. So how does she know? Earlier she said that the phantom was a guy they had working in the circus her husband ran off to, so how did she even hear about him? And then, how would she know so much about his family history?

I don't have it all put together yet but it seems to me that the one legged girl dreamed the whole thing and within her dream the other characters dream parts. Different parts of the monolog are dreamed by different characters. Lost girl has to be the dreamer of the last segment because Mr. K. goes to the phone and says, "the horse to the well" and also, I believe, "Czerwone", which I believe I looked up correctly in a Polish-English dictionary as "Red". Lost girl just heard both of those things at the séance, so she seems to be the dreamer of the final monologue sequence. The ones about her husband would have been dreamed by Sue. Etc. It will take a while for this to make complete sense if it is going to.

What I really like about the monolog is the story about the phantom - how it wasn`t suddenly there anymore at the police station.

That is my favorite part of the movie!

Yes, but I think that this could take years. But to have an idea about the "soul-collector-scene" I think I can try to get to know a little bit more about Ingmar Bergman movies. Thank you for your comparison.

I meant just that it was filmed like Bergman, slow and moody but captivating, but I was thinking of earlier Bergman like Through a Glass Darkly, or The Seventh Seal, or The Naked Night. I can't remember anything specifically like this in theme; it's more like something he might have done.

Is there anywhere something more about the phantom or about her dead son in the monolog in MTTH?

Not in the monolog. There is a long monologue sequence where she talks about her current life in the present which has nothing to do with anything else in the movie, nothing to do with Sue, Lost Girl, or anyone else. To me it is as if we are hearing the life of the character herself so maybe somehow in the others her mind is being invaded by the other characters as they use her to tell their story. Hard to say what I mean, but in this part she is just herself. Talks about living with her sister and her sister's husband, her complaints about that, etc.

Another scene late in the movie is of the street girls on Hollywood Blvd. (where one of them got paid in Euro). It is just them, as they are, with no Sue or no other part of the story. Like the one above, it is as if we are seeing them as they are, taken out of the story. It's brutal and sad and horrible, just to watch the pitiful way they act toward each other and how empty their lives are.

The scenes I can't describe are about as mixed up as anything can get. Sue enters house and it is not her house, then wanders through some underground labyrinth. Nikki comes down stairs from her house and leaves the building, then seems to come back, but her outfit is just very subtly different, so maybe it is Sue going into Nikki's house. She goes upstairs and finds Nikki lying on the floor crying and talking on the phone to Devon and the Phantom at the same time. The phantom seems to be claiming that he is completely innocent of any wrongdoing, or maybe it is crimp, hard to say. Then she stops crying and shouts at them to leave her alone. Then we see Sue in the doorway (I guess) laughing at her. It's confusing but that's what makes Lynch films what they are.

[MichaelPW]

Well back to square one: aren't there inexpensive players that work with batteries, like to take on a trip? One bought from a US source should play region 1 disks.

Yes, and there seem to be dvd-players in Germany that can play code 1. But one has also pay attention to the correct TV. I can wait.

1. It tells even more horrifying details about the girl, which adds credence to the theory that the whole thing was dreamed by her.

Why exactly adds it credence to this theory?

Perhaps more evidence that the girl is the dreamer.

Why? I can`t follow this.

I don't have it all put together yet but it seems to me that the one legged girl dreamed the whole thing and within her dream the other characters dream parts. Different parts of the monolog are dreamed by different characters.

I think the one legged girl is someone important, but I don`t know why. Why is she one-legged? And do also the asian-woman talk about her one time? BTW - she talks about a "kiss-hand-throwing-woman". Is this the same as the interviewer? And is the interviewer real? It`s interesting how the two groups thereafter react differently. The Nicki-group has no criticism.

Different parts of the monolog are dreamed by different characters.

Maybe. Or: Nicki wants to know more about the girls Devon ("SaSaSa?") met before. She is asked (maybe by herself): Do you want to see? Maybe she discovers that Devon is someone who goes to street girls. Maybe she has fear in this affair with Devon. And fear is the key to the black lodge. So it`s the key for the phantom, who want to get in very urgently. BTW - to whom does the phantom inform about this? How is he called? We have him again in the "driving-into-the-woods"-scene. (It was red.) Maybe the phantom don`t wants to get in, but wants to get out - that would explain is satisfied behaviour in the "shootin-scene". Having the phantom in could mean: You will really see. Experiencing what the street girls have experienced.

Lost girl has to be the dreamer of the last segment because Mr. K. goes to the phone and says, "the horse to the well" and also, I believe, "Czerwone", which I believe I looked up correctly in a Polish-English dictionary as "Red".

Why would this explain that lost girl dreams the last segment? BTW - What does "the horse to the well" mean? I don`t believe that lost girl dreams. She has fear nearly throughout the whole movie - maybe as a reminder for the theme fear. Nicki has done something right at the end. Also the street girls are in "heaven".

I asked if Sue has a husband and if he perhaps he is Smithy. Now I think that she has a husband, because there is this "it sounds like a diologue from our script"-scene.

That is my favorite part of the movie!

Beside this part I like also very much: visitor 1 - scene, "wanting-in"-scene, "this-is-the-street"-scene, scratching-scenes, "three-o-clock"-scenes, "I`ve been hypnotized"-scene, "Don`t you remember anything"-scene, woman-from-behind-scene, meeting-on-the-street-scene, driving-into-the-woods-scene, "it`s always the way you want"-scene, "9.45"-scenes, rabbit-scenes and "shooting-the-phantom"-scene, if I didn`t forget one.

I can't remember anything specifically like this in theme; it's more like something he might have done.

Yes, I know. Comparison is a wide field.

Another scene late in the movie is of the street girls on Hollywood Blvd. (where one of them got paid in Euro).

Is there any feature by which you can tell me which street girl was paid in Euro? In the snaps-scene I`m fascinated about the look of the one entirely left. She looks differently with her eyes as the others do I think.

It's brutal and sad and horrible, just to watch the pitiful way they act toward each other and how empty their lives are.

Nevertheless I would like to see.

The phantom seems to be claiming that he is completely innocent of any wrongdoing, or maybe it is crimp, hard to say.

Maybe the phantom didn`t want to be in. Maybe it wants only to be in for long times.

[MichaelPW]

Beside this part I like also very much: visitor 1 - scene, "wanting-in"-scene, "this-is-the-street"-scene, scratching-scenes, "three-o-clock"-scenes, "I`ve been hypnotized"-scene, "Don`t you remember anything"-scene, woman-from-behind-scene, meeting-on-the-street-scene, driving-into-the-woods-scene, "it`s always the way you want"-scene, "9.45"-scenes, rabbit-scenes and "shooting-the-phantom"-scene, if I didn`t forget one.

I forgot at least five scenes: "Where is everyone gone?"-scene (unbelievable), warning-scene, Devon runs to Nicki scene, and in the old "at the street"-scene: how one of the girls falls into the picture (great; Sophia`s Fall?) and walk with blue robe scene...

[applesnoranges]

1. It tells even more horrifying details about the girl, which adds credence to the theory that the whole thing was dreamed by her.

Why exactly adds it credence to this theory?

I'm not convinced of the theory, just considering it. What I thought of is the scene from Queen Kelly asking to be delivered from this wicked dream. Then at the end we see the Marine's Sister happily saying, "Sweet!" As if she has finally awakened from the wicked dream. (That is, Lost Girl would be one of the characters in her dream speaking what she herself wishes for, to awaken.) Since she would be placed outside the story in this way, it could provide a way for all the other strange things to happen.

I think the one legged girl is someone important, but I don`t know why. Why is she one-legged? And do also the asian-woman talk about her one time? BTW - she talks about a "kiss-hand-throwing-woman". Is this the same as the interviewer? And is the interviewer real? It`s interesting how the two groups thereafter react differently. The Nicki-group has no criticism.

The story in the Dern monolog of the one legged girl makes her seem very unfortunate and yet able to survive her misfortune through her criminal mentality. If it is about a woman in trouble, she is in more troube than anyone, though she is a girl in the story. At the end she seems to be a young woman though.

I don't follow the rest of what you are saying. The woman who blows kisses and laughs is the friend the Asian woman says lives in Pomona, named Niko. I don't know who you mean by the interviewer; there is one in the police station and one, Mr. K., talking to Sue. I don't see what they have to do with Niko or the one legged girl. "The Nicki-group has no criticism." I don't understand at all. Maybe use a few more words to say it?

Different parts of the monolog are dreamed by different characters.

Maybe. Or: Nicki wants to know more about the girls Devon ("SaSaSa?") met before.

You explained that "SaSaSa" is written on the wall in the death scene, but I still don't know what you are saying that it might mean or how it relates to anything.

She is asked (maybe by herself): Do you want to see? Maybe she discovers that Devon is someone who goes to street girls. Maybe she has fear in this affair with Devon.

That would be a level I haven't looked at. What seems to be shown, right on the surface, is that Sue dreams of Lost Girl telling her how to use the watch and the silk to "see". Then she is shown asleep with her husband; that's why I think that whole previous sequence is Sue dreaming. Then Sue tries burning a hole in the silk herself and in that way she sees things in the Polish story. Kingsley told Nikki that the Polish story was a previous version of his own movie, OHIBT; he didn't say that the Polish story was within his movie. Yet we see that it was here and also when Devon investigates "Smithie's House" and we see "The Street" in back of it. Supposedly Nikki has read the script, so if Kingsley has a whole set for "the street", why wouldn't she know about it?

So whether all this is being motivated by Nikki's fears and doubts about Devon I can't see, but I see what you mean about how she might want "to see" about Devon.

And fear is the key to the black lodge. So it`s the key for the phantom, who want to get in very urgently.

I think that is definitely a parallel. The phantom, as hypnotist, gets into the movie first in the story Dern tells about him, and she is very angry when she tells the story, but he really gets in where we can see him hypnotizing when Sue and Doris are furious with each other.

BTW - to whom does the phantom inform about this? How is he called? We have him again in the "driving-into-the-woods"-scene.

His name is Janek. We are not told much about him but we can see by how he acts that he knows what he is doing and is a very strong, confident man. He is also the man who literally drags Piotrek into the séance.

(It was red.)

That is the English subtitle when the man on the left says, in Polish, something about "Czerwone", which I think means "red" in Polish. It is also the last word Mr. K. says on the phone which causes the woman to leave his office and return to the street.

Maybe the phantom don`t wants to get in, but wants to get out - that would explain is satisfied behaviour in the "shootin-scene". Having the phantom in could mean: You will really see. Experiencing what the street girls have experienced.

Well, OK, but he definitely tells Janek that he very much wants to get in. I don't know how to resolve that.

..."Czerwone" ... "Red".

Why would this explain that lost girl dreams the last segment?

Because right before that was the séance scene where LG heard that and also heard, "the horse to the well".

BTW - What does "the horse to the well" mean?

We had a big, long conversation about that on the inlandempirecinema.com board when it was still active. I don't know that we ever agreed about anything. But:

There is a proverb in English, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." It means that you can help people only so much but at some point they have to do something for themselves. Some people thought that taking the horse to the well was David Lynch's personal version of that proverb. That it meant that the woman had been directed upstairs to see Mr. K. but nobody could make her accept what he had to offer; she had to take that step herself. What he has to offer is acceptance. No matter what horrible thing she says, he accepts her as she is without judgment or rejection.

I can see that, but I thought that it was not the same proverb because it is just never said that way, with the word "well". I think I found four examples of it out of all the billions on Google. So i thought that the horse was the gun and the well was the drawer.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters much; I think it is mostly just a signal that Lost Girl heard that term, then her rabbit went to sit in Dern's place talking to Mr. K. and also heard it, so that sequence seems to me to come from LG in some way.

I don`t believe that lost girl dreams. She has fear nearly throughout the whole movie - maybe as a reminder for the theme fear.

Yes but she is helped by the rabbits who take action. Only she can see the rabbits so they seem to be an attempt on her part to make contact with reality, even if she can't understand their TV show. Then more and more they succeed in working for her, going to places in the story to make things happen. So it is in that sense that she seems to me to be "dreaming". In the sense of perceiving reality little by little.

Nicki has done something right at the end. Also the street girls are in "heaven".

Some people certainly see it that way. Or maybe once the phantom is removed from the story, none of it ever happened.

I asked if Sue has a husband and if he perhaps he is Smithy. Now I think that she has a husband, because there is this "it sounds like a diologue from our script"-scene.

We definitely see husbands for Nikki and Sue and Lost Girl, all played by Peter Lucas. I don't think we can tell who "Smithie" is; maybe Smithie is whoever happens to by occupying Smithie's house.

That is my favorite part of the movie!

Beside this part I like also very much: visitor 1 - scene, "wanting-in"-scene, "this-is-the-street"-scene, scratching-scenes, "three-o-clock"-scenes, "I`ve been hypnotized"-scene, "Don`t you remember anything"-scene, woman-from-behind-scene, meeting-on-the-street-scene, driving-into-the-woods-scene, "it`s always the way you want"-scene, "9.45"-scenes, rabbit-scenes and "shooting-the-phantom"-scene, if I didn`t forget one.

All the weird things. Yes, that's what brings it all alive for me. I like the mystery with which they surround everything.

Another scene late in the movie is of the street girls on Hollywood Blvd. (where one of them got paid in Euro).

Is there any feature by which you can tell me which street girl was paid in Euro? In the snaps-scene I`m fascinated about the look of the one entirely left. She looks differently with her eyes as the others do I think.

I don't know their names but it is in the MTTH scene. She is the one with very curly hair whom we see laughing a lot, also laughing in Poland for a few seconds. I'll pay attention to the left one next time.

It's brutal and sad and horrible, just to watch the pitiful way they act toward each other and how empty their lives are.

Nevertheless I would like to see.

The phantom seems to be claiming that he is completely innocent of any wrongdoing, or maybe it is crimp, hard to say.

Maybe the phantom didn`t want to be in. Maybe it wants only to be in for long times.

What the phantom wants seems to be the big question. That's what I wondered the first time I saw it. Then I thought: garmonbozia. It's interesting that Lost Girl asks him exactly that question in the watch buying scene. She asks, "What do you want from me?" He says: "I want to hold your hand." She should have known that he was lying, that he would not assure her to have good luck in exchange for only holding her hand for two seconds and twenty five dollars.

[MichaelPW]

What I thought of is the scene from Queen Kelly asking to be delivered from this wicked dream.

I think that Lost Girl doesn't really mean a dream as such. Think that it is more meant like a "bad movie" as reality. "Queen Kelly" seems to pray. A bad dream would be seldomly a cause to pray I think. Maybe Lost Girl is a prisoner in the curse since she was working as an actress for 47. Maybe "Do you want to see?" is also meant as "Do you want to know about the facts about 47". Lost Girl knows the means by which to see. The rabbits have a mean by which they assume it is the right one to solve the problem. The horse is led to the well, but it doesn`t drink. The rabbits hadn`t the right mean. Janek knew that (btw - do you have still this polish-english dictionary at hand? could you do me a favor and look, whether there`s a word in Polish that is similar to Janek?). Nikki found the right mean nearly at the phantom. So far my interpretation at this time.

Then at the end we see the Marine's Sister happily saying, "Sweet!"

Is she really the sister of the Marine or is she the sister of the phantom? Maybe she is like Mike in TP (one-armed). Killing in the past, but after seeing the face of god not killing anymore. And is there a connection to the girl who saw the end of the world?

The woman who blows kisses and laughs is the friend the Asian woman says lives in Pomona, named Niko.

Mean the tv - interviewer interviewing Nikki and Devon. I think she blows kisses at the end of the scene. She could have a wig. She interviews them in a very indiscrete way. The scene works unreal. Like here is said what we really think.

"The Nicki-group has no criticism."

After the scene Devon immediately criticizes the interviewer. But the guys around him take the theme of the interviewer and blow in a similar horn. Nikki and the women around her don`t take the theme at all. Not only that. They ask: Did you hear what she said? We don`t know what that newest revealings about Devon were, do we?

What seems to be shown, right on the surface, is that Sue dreams of Lost Girl telling her how to use the watch and the silk to "see". Then she is shown asleep with her husband; that's why I think that whole previous sequence is Sue dreaming.

I don`t know, whether it is in a dream where Lost Girl informs about how to see. Is there a similarity between the watch Nikki uses, the watch the second visitor wears and the lucky watches? There is the singing: "I found a dream I could talk to". From Nikki`s perspective that dream could be "Billy". She wants to call him (It was red). But on the other side there is no "Billy". There is laughter.

Yet we see that it was here and also when Devon investigates "Smithie's House" and we see "The Street" in back of it. Supposedly Nikki has read the script, so if Kingsley has a whole set for "the street", why wouldn't she know about it?

Maybe "the street" is the way to the understanding of the curse. If Devon would look closer he would recognize that something is wrong. But he doesn`t look closer. And when he looks closer he can`t see. "Nikki" is there, but he doesn`t see her. Lost Girl is a prisoner. But Devon doesn`t see.

I think that is definitely a parallel.

Maybe not only a parallel, but the same.

We definitely see husbands for Nikki and Sue and Lost Girl, all played by Peter Lucas.

Yes, and now I saw the "garden-scene" again, in which Sue says that she has a husband.

All the weird things. Yes, that's what brings it all alive for me. I like the mystery with which they surround everything.

From the non-weird things I like most: The flame of the lighter, the dancing woman projected beyond Nikki, blue robe put apart, kiss-scene between Nikki and Lost Girl and the garden, if I didn`t forget one.

In the "three-o-clock"-scene I like the combination with the music very much. It`s a very special scene. I would like have a word for such a scene, but I haven`t one. It reminds me on Uhrwerk Orange.

What the phantom wants seems to be the big question. That's what I wondered the first time I saw it. Then I thought: garmonbozia. It's interesting that Lost Girl asks him exactly that question in the watch buying scene. She asks, "What do you want from me?" He says: "I want to hold your hand." She should have known that he was lying, that he would not assure her to have good luck in exchange for only holding her hand for two seconds and twenty five dollars.

It`s also the question about a "prostitution-deal" I think. Do prostitutes in fact only sell their body for a little time or do they sell their soul for a long time?!

[applesnoranges]

What I thought of is the scene from Queen Kelly asking to be delivered from this wicked dream.

I think that Lost Girl doesn't really mean a dream as such. Think that it is more meant like a "bad movie" as reality. "Queen Kelly" seems to pray. A bad dream would be seldomly a cause to pray I think. Maybe Lost Girl is a prisoner in the curse since she was working as an actress for 47. Maybe "Do you want to see?" is also meant as "Do you want to know about the facts about 47". Lost Girl knows the means by which to see. The rabbits have a mean by which they assume it is the right one to solve the problem. The horse is led to the well, but it doesn`t drink. The rabbits hadn`t the right mean. Janek knew that (btw - do you have still this polish-english dictionary at hand? could you do me a favor and look, whether there`s a word in Polish that is similar to Janek?). Nikki found the right mean nearly at the phantom. So far my interpretation at this time.

I agree with all that; that adds everything together. I was just looking for an overall dream within which all of this could be taking place. Another thought I had was that it might all be the dream of Queen Kelly.

Then at the end we see the Marine's Sister happily saying, "Sweet!"

Is she really the sister of the Marine or is she the sister of the phantom? Maybe she is like Mike in TP (one-armed). Killing in the past, but after seeing the face of god not killing anymore. And is there a connection to the girl who saw the end of the world?

She says, They had this guy working there etc. then she says he was a Marine from North Carolina ... and we see Majchrzek's face. We don't know why or how a Marine from North Carolina wound up working in the circus in Poland, it just seems to be a string of ideas flowing through the mad woman's mind. But once she said it, there it is. That's all I see about it. The little girl who sees the end of the world seems to be someone else to me; she is helpless, not demonic.

Mean the tv - interviewer interviewing Nikki and Devon. I think she blows kisses at the end of the scene. She could have a wig. She interviews them in a very indiscrete way. The scene works unreal. Like here is said what we really think.

Oh, OK, yes I see now. Well, like everything else, it is dreamlike. "Where stars make dreams and dreams make stars!" For a while people were saying that the whole thing was an after life dream of Sue and she made up the story out of things she heard when she was dying. That never quite completely works, but it is one way to view it. Anyway, I see that they are different views of the same idea now that I see it.

"The Nicki-group has no criticism."

After the scene Devon immediately criticizes the interviewer. But the guys around him take the theme of the interviewer and blow in a similar horn. Nikki and the women around her don`t take the theme at all. Not only that. They ask: Did you hear what she said? We don`t know what that newest revealings about Devon were, do we?

Oh, OK, yes. Well this whole sequence is still pretty confusing to me. At this point I think this is all Nikki's point of view"”what she thinks of herself vs what she thinks of Devon.

Another thing that keeps sticking in my mind is how one of Nikki's friends says, "Did you hear what Marilyn said? She said you blow. Do you know what that means?" Well I think what that means when someone says that is that whatever it is sucks, stinks, is a piece of crap, etc. I don't think anyone ever says that as a compliment. Maybe Nikki knows what Marilyn really thinks of her but is trying to pretend that she likes her.

I don`t know, whether it is in a dream where Lost Girl informs about how to see. Is there a similarity between the watch Nikki uses, the watch the second visitor wears and the lucky watches? There is the singing: "I found a dream I could talk to". From Nikki`s perspective that dream could be "Billy". She wants to call him (It was red). But on the other side there is no "Billy". There is laughter.

At this point I don't think Nikki is in the picture. She dived into Sue's character and now we are seeing things about Sue. But the entire thing, from the moment she found herself in the room with the flashlights (after the flashing lamp), on through seeing "the street", being told how to "see", etc. "”"” all of that seems to be a dream because we see her asleep at night. Then we see her burn the hole in the silk herself.

The whole idea I am seeing here is that these street girls first appeared to her in a dream, then little by little, as her mind failed, she saw and heard them in her apartment in waking life, and finally, by the end, they are with her everywhere. They are a delusion she carries with her which talks to her and mocks her and echoes her doubts and fears.[/quote]

Maybe "the street" is the way to the understanding of the curse. If Devon would look closer he would recognize that something is wrong. But he doesn`t look closer. And when he looks closer he can`t see. "Nikki" is there, but he doesn`t see her. Lost Girl is a prisoner. But Devon doesn`t see.

Yeah. That makes sense. Kingsley seems to be laughing about how innocent and dumb Devon is, and it's true.

We definitely see husbands for Nikki and Sue and Lost Girl, all played by Peter Lucas.

Yes, and now I saw the "garden-scene" again, in which Sue says that she has a husband.

It's pieced together through the story. The story we see of Sue is sometimes an illustration of what Dern says in the monologue and she talks about her husband hiding something, going off to Eastern Europe, etc.

What the phantom wants seems to be the big question.

It`s also the question about a "prostitution-deal" I think. Do prostitutes in fact only sell their body for a little time or do they sell their soul for a long time?!

Yes, that is so. She agrees to let him do something to her (hold her hand supposedly) in exchange for what he says he will give her in return (good luck). But when she asks if the watch will bring real good luck, he says,

"Yes! Real good luck! I will look over you!"

So I think it is also a metaphor for a certain kind of marriage as a kind of prostitution. Especially since we see them in the IE feature as having some kind of relationship like that. Some people say they are an unhappy married couple and some say she is a prostitute working for him. We are not told by the story.

[MichaelPW]

Another thought I had was that it might all be the dream of Queen Kelly.

That would be something! Answers are maybe in the published scenes. I plan to search such answers.

Another thing that keeps sticking in my mind is how one of Nikki's friends says, "Did you hear what Marilyn said? She said you blow. Do you know what that means?"

That`s heavy. I don`t know if she says "blow" or glow (like a star). And I don`t know, whether Nicky says "No" to the first question. Somehow I think that she said "No" to that first question. We also have Sue in that "don`t you remember anything?"-scene (6xgreen,1xred) asking "Do you listen to me?" And Billy says "No". Well, primarily he did. Otherwise he probably wouldn`t answer. This could be part of a hypnotization-technique. And we have "Peter Lucas" beating his wife and saying "Do you listen to me?" Nicky doesn`t say "No" here.

At this point I don't think Nikki is in the picture. She dived into Sue's character and now we are seeing things about Sue. But the entire thing, from the moment she found herself in the room with the flashlights (after the flashing lamp), on through seeing "the street", being told how to "see", etc. "”"” all of that seems to be a dream because we see her asleep at night. Then we see her burn the hole in the silk herself.

It`s difficult to differentiate between Sue and Nicky. From my point of view there is in IE as in MD the theme of the fading of borders between an actress as a real life person and an actress as a character in a movie. Billy talks about feelings in the garden-scene. And these feelings seem to have a power comparable to the power of the phantom. For me these (shining) feelings reach not Sue, but Nicki. For me this is why we see this scene in which this garden-scene is projected beyond the red (It was red) flashing lamp. Red could mean love here. Love from Nicki to Devon. Then this red flashing lamp seems to "explode" and we see a single blue (!) bulb. Blue could mean "non-love" here. Non-love from Devon to Nicki. Nicki is just one of many. But it`s strange what love does. Maybe love is stronger than "non-love". Maybe love offers the way to see. Also seeing the true cold blue facts - also seeing the facts about what was going on with this 4 7 movie. Probably only Nicki knows about 4 7 - not Sue. And in that scratching scene where she is informed by Lost Girl how to see - how she looks there - for me it`s Nicky.

There is scene where she comes into the room and the hole is already in the silk. I don`t have an explanation for this.

The whole idea I am seeing here is that these street girls first appeared to her in a dream, then little by little, as her mind failed, she saw and heard them in her apartment in waking life, and finally, by the end, they are with her everywhere.

You wrote that the one with the curly hair is the one paid in Euro. What I haven`t recognized before is: We have her laughing in the old at the street scene. But when the picture is again at that position we have someone else.

[applesnoranges]

All very interesting. It's quite late now so I'll answer sometime tomorrow. I think I'm missing some things and need to look again.

[applesnoranges]

That would be something! Answers are maybe in the published scenes. I plan to search such answers.

It is possible to buy the movie (Queen Kelly) and it might be worth it; I've read that it is a good thing to watch on its own. Also, from what I have read, there are some similarities in the story to that of IE.

That`s heavy. I don`t know if she says "blow" or glow (like a star). And I don`t know, whether Nicky says "No" to the first question. Somehow I think that she said "No" to that first question. We also have Sue in that "don`t you remember anything?"-scene (6xgreen,1xred) asking "Do you listen to me?" And Billy says "No". Well, primarily he did. Otherwise he probably wouldn`t answer. This could be part of a hypnotization-technique. And we have "Peter Lucas" beating his wife and saying "Do you listen to me?" Nicky doesn`t say "No" here.

Yes, something confusing goes by fast there. I also don't know who says "Oh you guys, how did it go?" I need to take time and listen more closely; I may have that wrong what they say Marilyn said. What do you mean by 6xgreen,1xred? Also, I never heard clearly what Sue shouts to Billy. If she says, "Do you listen to me?" (and likewise Piotrek in the beating scene) that would be a strange thing to say. "Are you listening to me?" would be the normal way to say that, but if Piotrek is not a native English speaker he might say it the other way. So then why would Sue say that? (The difference is that "do you listen" means do you listen ever, and "are you listening" means are you listening right now. But maybe I myself have not listened closely enough as Lynch predicted that I would not and that is a Lynch joke.

It`s difficult to differentiate between Sue and Nicky. From my point of view there is in IE as in MD the theme of the fading of borders between an actress as a real life person and an actress as a character in a movie.

A thought came to me about this, not certain I can express it right. But in fact, none of these characters are Sue or Nikki, they are just Laura Dern acting. So there is something absurd about wondering who it is. I am thinking this way: Suppose someone draws a picture of a person. We can't say who that person is because it is not a person, it is a drawing. In other words, technically, there is no such thing as a "picture of" someone so for an actor there is also no such thing as a "portrayal of" anyone. Now in a historical drama (Goya in Boredeaux is one of my favorites) there is no doubt that the actors are portraying Goya, his family, friends, etc. because those were real people, so we know what we as the audience are supposed to think and there is no surprise. But fictional characters are something else. Then when we have actors playing the parts of actors and maybe dreaming of another version of themselves in the past playing other actors ... well we wind up with a real barrel of monkeys.

I am starting to think this: Lynch sees the story as an object. He has an idea the the actors perform the idea. Then other ideas related to it. But that doesn't mean that there is a story behind it somewhere; the ideas are the story. So he must think: "Here is an idea: what if she said ...?" then he thinks, "... well no, we already did that so what if ...?" In other words, the idea creates the form and then the form brings meanings with it. They are not supposed to do anything other than that.

Billy talks about feelings in the garden-scene. And these feelings seem to have a power comparable to the power of the phantom. For me these (shining) feelings reach not Sue, but Nicki.

Yes, I get that sense every time.

For me this is why we see this scene in which this garden-scene is projected beyond the red (It was red) flashing lamp. Red could mean love here. Love from Nicki to Devon. Then this red flashing lamp seems to "explode" and we see a single blue (!) bulb. Blue could mean "non-love" here. Non-love from Devon to Nicki. Nicki is just one of many. But it`s strange what love does. Maybe love is stronger than "non-love". Maybe love offers the way to see. Also seeing the true cold blue facts - also seeing the facts about what was going on with this 4 7 movie. Probably only Nicki knows about 4 7 - not Sue. And in that scratching scene where she is informed by Lost Girl how to see - how she looks there - for me it`s Nicky.

Hmmm ... something to think about. Yes, it is true that Nikki is the one who knows about 4 7; she is the one who heard about it. Nobody ever told Sue about such a movie. But then there follow scenes of Sue burning the hole and wearing the striped top she wore when the girls showed her the street in Poland. How do we follow that narrative about Sue if it is something that comes from Nikki that is not coming from Kingsley's movie? Somehow what happens to Nikki also happens to Sue. So again, I am seeing different "dreamers" here, in the sense that I mentioned them before: characters who view and/or control the scenes ... and we would have two versions of the learning to see, one Nikki's as you point out, and one Sue's. The person in the room with flashlights definitely seems like Sue, so she on the street seems like Sue. The only standard, normal explanation would be that Nikki had a dream about her character Sue. Nikki knows about both Sue and 4 7. So then the scene of Sue and her husband sleeping after all this would be just something to twist it around again, and, like the producer said, "Hollywood's full of these screwball stories and they should not be taken as truth."

There is scene where she comes into the room and the hole is already in the silk. I don`t have an explanation for this.

I don't either except that, as I proposed above, Lynch thought, "Well we should show her with the hole already burnt because it's a scene that happened yesterday but I know it's tomorrow."

You wrote that the one with the curly hair is the one paid in Euro. What I haven`t recognized before is: We have her laughing in the old at the street scene. But when the picture is again at that position we have someone else.

Yes that was like an unexpected turn on a roller coaster each time I saw it for a while. All I can think is generally that as they start to close in on the resolution, Sue and Lost Girl start dreaming the same thing, so Lost Girl dreams of her in Poland too. That is, Lost Girl knows the whole Dern story the same as we do, but at this point she begins to control it by seeing herself outside on her own street with the same character. Then very soon Dern does the same thing with the finger snapping. Are you saying that it looks as if the curly girl brought the 50 Euro back from Poland to Hollywood? She could have if Lynch told her to.

[MichaelPW]

What do you mean by 6xgreen,1xred?

There is this "alarm-facility", when Sue opens the door. 6 green lights and 1 red light blink two times. I don`t know what that means. Maybe: Here`s little love.

Also, I never heard clearly what Sue shouts to Billy.

Yes, one cannot clearly hear it. It seems that this is intended. I don`t know, if she says "Do you listen to me" or "Are you listening to me", but that`s an interesting question. I know it from the subtitles that it is either one or the another. So one cannot clearly understand it. But Billy says "No". Although he listens to her and although one cannot clearly understand it, he says "No".

So there is something absurd about wondering who it is.

But it`s interesting to imagine how one would feel in a position like Nikki or in a position like the actress in MD, when there is this fading between role and real life. One maybe wants to know reasons why one would feel more like Nikki or Sue in several situations and compare it with reality. Certainly there are scenes where we have someone like "Nikki-Sue". I know what you mean (C`est ne une pipe). But one can take the position of Nikki playing Sue. And when Nikki falls in love with Devon as Sue it`s like that something happened that normally shouldn`t happen. Nikki said "It will be professional". So the "un-professional" produces excitement.

But that doesn't mean that there is a story behind it somewhere; the ideas are the story.

Yes, as far as I know David Lynch said that he doesn`t know what exactly IE means. But that doesn`t mean that there isn`t a story behind it somewhere. And human beings like to think in patterns of causality. So someone has something like IE and searches for something to make it more understandable - perhaps.

In other words, the idea creates the form and then the form brings meanings with it.

Yes, this could be so. So we have the form as an abstract level and many interpretations made from this. It`s interesting to see different interpretations and compare them to own interpretations.

In the room with flashlights there is this woman who says: "In the future you will dream. When you open your eyes someone familiar will be there." This could mean: Until now you didn`t dream. Moreover Nikki closes her eyes then and opens it. Who is the familiar one?