This Is The Street

Discussion of INLAND EMPIRE

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applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:59 pm

Yes, I can see all these things as you lay them out. I'll just have to hold that thought for the moment until some other things come together. There is also to account for the screwdriver with which the Ormand character has been stabbed.

A couple other thoughts: One is that on imdb they were playing with names wile back and came up with the idea that if Sue were dreaming of being married to Billy Side, she would be dreaming of herself as "Sue Side".

But more to the point I think. On the video answers to members on dl.com, Lynch responded to a question from someone who was obviously seriously depressed and was having trouble finding reasons for going on living. DL took it very seriously and said that he was going to tell a story, an old story, I think from Hinduism, something very old anyway. That is the idea that everyone has a certain amount of time to live and that if anyone takes their own life before that time, they will enter a state where they are sort of suspended and unable to do anything or contact anyone; a sort of zone where nothing happens ... and they will stay there until the real time of their death comes about. Sounds a little like Lost Girl? It doesn't fit perfectly because then if she killed herself in the 1930s, how would her son be about 10 in 2006? We would have to imagine a son which is not in the movie. But we may be seeing her having killed herself at the foot of the stairs. None of this fits together but just an idea.
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:20 pm

applesnoranges wrote:One is that on imdb they were playing with names wile back and came up with the idea that if Sue were dreaming of being married to Billy Side, she would be dreaming of herself as "Sue Side".


I wonder why it could be that the woman on the marketplace percepts another version of herself as the wife of Billy Side and why she feels to be followed by that woman. It seems that she only percepts her figuratively - not knowing who this figurative perception could represent.

Saw another movie with Julia Ormond now: Varian`s War - more or less a relative bad movie in some sense. But I like the performance of her and would like to see more movies with her.

Saw also another movie with Krzysztof Majchrzak: Pornografia (primarily nothing to do with pornography) - more or less a relative good movie. Watched it twice - first time without English subtitles and second time with those subtitles: Oh, what a difference!!!

DL took it very seriously and said that he was going to tell a story, an old story, I think from Hinduism, something very old anyway.


I didn`t know that MD was dedicated to Jennifer Syme. Informed me about her and discovered some sad facts. They found a big amount of cocain and trails of antidepressiva in her blood after she (probably) killed herself. And she was the personal assistance of David Lynch.

That is the idea that everyone has a certain amount of time to live and that if anyone takes their own life before that time, they will enter a state where they are sort of suspended and unable to do anything or contact anyone; a sort of zone where nothing happens ... and they will stay there until the real time of their death comes about.


There are certainly circumstances which justify a suicide. But there are certainly also suicides which are senseless and probably will have bad spiritual consequences.

But we may be seeing her having killed herself at the foot of the stairs.


There`s something with hurting/killing oneself with a screwdriver.

Will watch Ted Bundy now - with Emily Stofle.
applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:56 am

MichaelPW wrote: wonder why it could be that the woman on the marketplace percepts another version of herself as the wife of Billy Side and why she feels to be followed by that woman. It seems that she only percepts her figuratively - not knowing who this figurative perception could represent.

I think I see it the same way but it is also unclear to me. In my trying to identify who the two Derns on the street were, at one time I was saying that one is Visitor #1's version and the other was Nikki's version, but now I am leaning toward they idea that one is Nikki's version and the other is the version of the monolog woman. It's hard to say who the Ormand character on the street seems to be to the monolog woman. (btw: in MTTH, near the end, that woman is seen walking down a sidewalk"”I think the same one where Aunt Ruth lived in MD, then walking past the El Nido hotel, where Joe lived in Sunset Boulevard, then walking calmly down toward Hollywood Boulevard, as if she were just going out for a walk. I don't know; jury is still out on the two Derns for me.
Saw another movie with Julia Ormond now: Varian`s War - more or less a relative bad movie in some sense. But I like the performance of her and would like to see more movies with her.

She is an interesting person. In addition to being an actress, she is also a serious activist working for justice and safety for abused girls forced into the sex industry. I don't remember where, but I searched her name once and found a video of her talking about it. Maybe it was an image search.
I didn`t know that MD was dedicated to Jennifer Syme. Informed me about her and discovered some sad facts. They found a big amount of cocain and trails of antidepressiva in her blood after she (probably) killed herself. And she was the personal assistance of David Lynch.

From the nearness of the release date to the time of her death, it seems to me that he added the dedication as a memory of her. (People have suggested that her death had something to do with the story, but I don't think so. People have invented all sorts of things about her death and theories connected to Hollywood gossip.) Interestingly, at the same time MD was being made, She, Naomi Watts, Scott Coffey, and Mark Pellagrino were also making another movie about an actress trying to make it in Hollywood, called "Ellie Parker". It's a comedy but a very surreal and crazy one, well worth watching. It's Scott Coffee's movie. I think it was a short film at the time and then, sometime after Syme's death, he went back and added to it to make it a feature film. Oh, btw, here is another Scott Coffee/Naomi Watts comedy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB2jU5tg66g

There are certainly circumstances which justify a suicide. But there are certainly also suicides which are senseless and probably will have bad spiritual consequences.

It seemed to me that DL stressed that it was a story to be sure the person didn't think he was telling him how to think. But at the same time, the problem the person was having seemed based in how he saw reality and DL wanted him to try to see it another way. I had the same experience once working on the adolescent ward of a mental hospital. A bright young man was talking to me and was unable to see why I didn't see things the same hopeless way he did. He was very smart and very well informed so there was no information I could give him to disprove what he said. I am not an expert"”I was there as an art teacher not a therapist"”so all I could do was assure him that I didn't agree.
But we may be seeing her having killed herself at the foot of the stairs.

There`s something with hurting/killing oneself with a screwdriver.

This is in the movie precisely the way he wants it so it must be possible to see it clearly. I don't yet, but the fact that we see the Polish Lucas character dead on the stairs seems connected. I don't know why she was climbing the stairs with screwdriver, but she may have found him there, then screamed, then run down stairs and stabbed herself. That man had been shot in the head, so, if by the Maj. character, then Sue had to shoot that character in the head to free Lost Girl. The whole Polish movie seems to be something that comes from Nikki to begin with because she is the one who heard about it. So it may be that Nikki needs to correct that story and make it one in which Lucas is still there to join LG. But these are still just pieces for me.
MichaelPW
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:08 pm

Saw Ballerina and it impressed me very much!!! So great, beautiful and fantastic!!! I feared a little bit that it would end too early, but it didn`t. It has exactly the right time.

applesnoranges wrote:In my trying to identify who the two Derns on the street were, at one time I was saying that one is Visitor #1's version and the other was Nikki's version, but now I am leaning toward they idea that one is Nikki's version and the other is the version of the monolog woman.


The one who sees Axxon N. and the one who`s with Mr. K seem to have in common that they follow the alley. First one sees Axxon N., which could mean "the alley for Nikki", and is not on the marketplace. Second one is far more closer to the palace if we regard the "dancing hall" as palace and Mr. K as the one who decides about getting access to the palace.

But somehow I don`t know exactly what all happens between the two time "points", if we regard those two as one identity. And I mean that on two levels: what happens in the movie and what happens in "reality". Maybe I will have the opportunity in the future one day to take notes about what happens in the movie. That would be a solid basis.

Have now another idea about what Axxon N. means, but I will come back on that later.

It's hard to say who the Ormand character on the street seems to be to the monolog woman.


I don`t think that the one on the marketplace is the monolog woman, because I think that the last one is on the alley. The "room of Mr. K" seems to be no place where one can "trade" in the center of something. Rather it seems to be a place behind the marketplace. The way to the palace. MTTH is somewhat different from the feature with regard to the connection between the monolog woman and "reality". In MTTH it is somewhat more intense I think. For example, the monolog woman speaks in one sequence and we see the lips-movements in reality, if I saw it right.

That we clearly see the crossed LB while she speaks about the one selling watches again is for me a clear hint that LB comes from bad luck. And it seems that we have here a double-negation. The monolog woman seems to be convinced that she would never deal with the one who sells watches, but nevertheless had bad luck. Crossed BL could mean good luck, but crossed LB probably means bad luck.

An idea would be that the Xes are variables. Where do we find a "solution"? And who decides? So it could either mean "A bad luck on Nikki" or "A good luck on Nikki". David Lynch sais: "When it is dark, you can turn the light on."

I don`t know but it could mean something when she raises her hand with the screwdriver in combination what she says at that moment...

We have an interesting basis with that that the monolog woman says ("You got to understand this") that she was 41 years old when it was 1960. Besides that she was 47 when it was 1966, it maybe is also interesting that she was 20 when it was 1949. Could it be 1949 when we see Lost Girl on the street?

btw - a few more things about more things that happened:
I like the music at the beginning of the beautiful buying-a-lucky-watch- scene very much.
After that scene we see a seemingly very old woman who I think says something. Does she say "Sieben"?
Later I think we see a face of a seemingly old man with somewhat like a waterfall beyond his face, don`t we?
The "Nikki Grace" who enters her house to see herself on the floor seems to be different from the "Nikki Grace" we see in the feature. It`s her kind of how she walks in MTTH - somewhat arrogant.
Also "Sue Blue" seems to be different, when she says "more pregnant".
What an art scene in which Sue (?) sits in that red easy chair! With the music, the coloures, the lights and the ghosts! David Lynch and Laura Dern catched an emotion: depression!
I like the scene in which the "black rabbit" enters the room "upstairs" in slow motion very much, as well.

btw - Did you get a codefree version of Rabbit by the Easter bunny? Saw the youtube-video with Naomi Watts you suggested today - that`s a funny one. Think that I can have the opportunity to watch Ellie Parker in the future.

She is an interesting person.


Yes, that`s true.

From the nearness of the release date to the time of her death, it seems to me that he added the dedication as a memory of her.


Yes, it seems so. She had a stillborn child. A source for depression.

He was very smart and very well informed so there was no information I could give him to disprove what he said.


In the last consequence I think it`s belief which leads either to a "good, hopeful" interpretation of reality or a "bad, hopeless" one.
applesnoranges
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby applesnoranges » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:22 am

MichaelPW wrote:The one who sees Axxon N. and the one who`s with Mr. K seem to have in common that they follow the alley. First one sees Axxon N., which could mean "the alley for Nikki", and is not on the marketplace. Second one is far more closer to the palace if we regard the "dancing hall" as palace and Mr. K as the one who decides about getting access to the palace.

But somehow I don`t know exactly what all happens between the two time "points", if we regard those two as one identity. And I mean that on two levels: what happens in the movie and what happens in "reality". Maybe I will have the opportunity in the future one day to take notes about what happens in the movie. That would be a solid basis.

I think I will have to do that too. By "marketplace" I think you mean the place in front of "Star Market" where she dies, yes? But she travels across Hollywood and Vine to get there, so: would that mean that is what gave her the idea to dream she was a Hollywood star while dying (becoming Nikki)? I was saying before that Nikki would notice the signs, but in fact, anyone who lives there would notice that they are in a famous place.
I don`t think that the one on the marketplace is the monolog woman, because I think that the last one is on the alley. The "room of Mr. K" seems to be no place where one can "trade" in the center of something. Rather it seems to be a place behind the marketplace. The way to the palace. MTTH is somewhat different from the feature with regard to the connection between the monolog woman and "reality". In MTTH it is somewhat more intense I think. For example, the monolog woman speaks in one sequence and we see the lips-movements in reality, if I saw it right.

Yes (and it is a very unusual effect, done so well). I think that says the same thing in the feature and MTTH"”that an aspect of her story is being illustrated to create the story for Nikki, the aspect that works to make the story happen. That is what David Lynch did"”he saw things in Rabbits and in AxxonN that seemed to be one story so he picked the things that made that happen and added content to tie them together. So I am thinking that the people in the movie, Mr. K. etc., also did that. They become the will of David Lynch and they are in opposition to the phantom, which is another aspect of the will of David Lynch. So, in that scene, she says to Mr. K. that she said, "What the hell is going on?!", and we see that illustrated by Sue with her same voice. In some parts of the monolog, her voice is different from Sue's (the southern accent is heavier), but here they seem the same, so that ties her strongly to Sue.
That we clearly see the crossed LB while she speaks about the one selling watches again is for me a clear hint that LB comes from bad luck. And it seems that we have here a double-negation. The monolog woman seems to be convinced that she would never deal with the one who sells watches, but nevertheless had bad luck. Crossed BL could mean good luck, but crossed LB probably means bad luck.

I'm not sure I follow that but I notice from it that LB backwards = Bad Luck and LG (Lost Girl) backwards = Good Luck. It doesn't make sense but just something I noticed. I think it is more important that the LB is upside down when she talks to Mr. K. and right side up on the street. That seems to indicate two different people, but why? The one on the street laughing would be Nikki?
An idea would be that the Xes are variables. Where do we find a "solution"? And who decides? So it could either mean "A bad luck on Nikki" or "A good luck on Nikki". David Lynch sais: "When it is dark, you can turn the light on."

I don`t know but it could mean something when she raises her hand with the screwdriver in combination what she says at that moment...

One of the things that "Watch this move!" could mean is notice that the LB has turned right side up. She's showing that she is in control. I don't know what happens after that though because she seems to act out the death but then the real woman dies and runs across Hollywood and Vine. Again, I just haven't watched it again taking careful note of each scene.
We have an interesting basis with that that the monolog woman says ("You got to understand this") that she was 41 years old when it was 1960. Besides that she was 47 when it was 1966, it maybe is also interesting that she was 20 when it was 1949. Could it be 1949 when we see Lost Girl on the street?

But we know that this is current time so that would make her 87 in 2006 so all it tells me is that she is confused. If she were 41 in 1960, she would have been born in 1919, so she would have been 20 in 1939. matildak pointed out that this was the German invasion of Poland which could be why she was in a movie with a German title. Then matildak has her 41 in 1960, when we see her (as Dern) in Smithy's House (the barbecue etc.). I don't follow the rest of matildak's theory or agree with it, but I'm just repeating his numbers. At: http://messageboard.inlandempirecinema. ... .php?t=995
btw - a few more things about more things that happened:
I like the music at the beginning of the beautiful buying-a-lucky-watch- scene very much.
After that scene we see a seemingly very old woman who I think says something. Does she say "Sieben"?

I didn't hear anything, but I'll turn the sound up next time. Yes, that sequence reminded me of an Ingmar Bergman movie; I wish he had lived to see it.
Later I think we see a face of a seemingly old man with somewhat like a waterfall beyond his face, don`t we?

You mean when the Dern character is taking a walk? I have never understood what that is supposed to be. I have never seen a face in it.
The "Nikki Grace" who enters her house to see herself on the floor seems to be different from the "Nikki Grace" we see in the feature. It`s her kind of how she walks in MTTH - somewhat arrogant.

There's another mystery. The one who goes downstairs is different from the one who goes upstairs. The one who sees her and laughs at her doesn't seem to have Sue Blue's personality either. Her attitude reminds me of the laughing woman on the street maybe but I don't know. They are both dressed in grey suits, but one is like Nikki at the beginning and the other is a different one.
Also "Sue Blue" seems to be different, when she says "more pregnant".
She doesn't seem different to me from the Sue at the dinner table. I think both of those are just her and her husband in an uncomfortable and dishonest marriage. But she is "more pregnant" when she says "more pregnant" (more uncomfortable).
What an art scene in which Sue (?) sits in that red easy chair! With the music, the coloures, the lights and the ghosts! David Lynch and Laura Dern catched an emotion: depression!
I like the scene in which the "black rabbit" enters the room "upstairs" in slow motion very much, as well.

Yeah, great, just to watch.
btw - Did you get a codefree version by the Easter bunny?

I don't know, but it came from another galaxy and it played OK here so probably not, and I made a copy of it that plays so that also makes me think it has no code. It might not work in Australia because water turns the opposite direction when it goes down a drain there, so maybe DVDs spin the opposite way too, but it might work where you are. (btw We have a lot of Eucalyptus trees in California which were brought from Australia. They have a twisting sort of trunk but they twist the opposite way here from in Australia from what I've been told.)

btw: This tribute video uses the audio from the Rabbits episode I mentioned with a different visual. In the original Jack Rabbit is there alone. You can hear when he enters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2uyg9OV ... re=related

I think Jane has a solo singing the same song in another episode, or one like it. You'd probably like Rabbits, but it is not related to IE. He just took parts of the first episode and wove it into something else.
MichaelPW
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:46 pm

applesnoranges wrote:I think I will have to do that too.


I have done it now and the result is as follows:

- 2.02.10: Street Girls: "Hellooooo"
"Dern 1": "I`m a whore"
"Where am I?"
"I`m a freak"
- 2.02.45: "Dern 1" sees Ormond character
- 2.02.49: "Dern 2" with screwdriver and purse comes
- 2.03.08: "Dern 2" sees Axxon N.
- 2.03.25: "Dern 2" sees "Dern 1"
- 2.03.47: "Dern 2" sees Ormond character

Note: We cannot see whether "Dern 1" has a screwdriver and/or a purse so far.

- 2.04.05: CUT
"Dern" sees Ormond character
"Dern" has contact with street girls
Probably it is "Dern 2", but we cannot
see a screwdriver nor a purse; and we
contact with street girls
- 2.05.14: street girls in Poland
- 2.06.41: "Dern" with purse at Deuce 40
I cannot see a screwdriver, but it could be
there; probably it is "Dern 2"
- 2.07.26: "Dern" in dancing room
- 2.08.08: someone gets "Dern"
- 2.09.05: stairs
- 2.09.14: "Dern" with screwdriver enters room, in
which Mr. K is; probably "Dern 2"; flash-
backs; new things
- 2.12.16: CUT
"...son died ...bad time..."
- 2.14.18: "Dern" leaves
- 2.15.19: "Where have you been"
As if "Dern 2" were "Dern 1"
- 2.15.22: "Dern" sees Ormond character
- 2.15.47: "Dern": "Hey"

By "marketplace" I think you mean the place in front of "Star Market" where she dies, yes?


No, primarily I mean the place in which "Dern 1" is. Assuming it is right what she says: Prostitution can be seen as trade. And trade is something to do on the marketplace. But we have "lost in the marketplace", which can refer to the dying scene I think. It seems that "Dern 2" is the one who follows the alley behind the marketplace as she sees Axxon N., decides about the quality of her life and is with Mr. K.

But she travels across Hollywood and Vine to get there, so: would that mean that is what gave her the idea to dream she was a Hollywood star while dying (becoming Nikki)?


Probably the one who is killed by the Ormond character doesn`t realize that the screwdriver falls on "Dorothy L`amour". I think it`s relative unrealistic that one would draw the screwdriver out of one`s own in such a situation. Hollywood and Vine I think can also be regarded as features of a marketplace. A place where actors sell their performances. In a certain sense these signs are opposite signs to the "Axxon N."-sign. The one who sees those signs gets lost. Lost in the marketplace. Maybe the one who dies hallucinates about possible solutions to get out of the situation. About the way to the palace (=Pomona?). Maybe one part of her soul says "I never heard about such a bus", but another says "You can get there for 3,50". All in all that could mean that it is her own decision. That she can fill in the Xes.

I was saying before that Nikki would notice the signs, but in fact, anyone who lives there would notice that they are in a famous place.


Yes, at least if they got the information (that it is a famous place) some time in their earlier life and remember that. It`s also the place of a dream production. And dreams are appearances - like phantoms. But where is the place behind signs? Where is the palace? Where is "Now I have to live my life"? And where is "Don`t you know that I need you"?

So, in that scene, she says to Mr. K. that she said, "What the hell is going on?!", and we see that illustrated by Sue with her same voice.


Very intense scene. I think the order of the scenes - that Sue discovers her husband (in a seemingly murderous mental state) in the middle of the night, then her depression (suppressed mental activity) scene and then the scene in which Devon is dead suggest that her husband really killed Devon. That puts her husband in a murderous light. Maybe she realizes in the scene above that her husband is planning a murder.

So maybe the cause of the mental problems of the monolog woman comes from the phantom (=an appearance) ("He`s in the near. That`s for sure."), although she didn`t trade with appearances when she was living. But maybe related persons of her dealed with appearances - and that had an effect to her, too.

That seems to indicate two different people, but why?


(I don`t know the position of the LB when Kingsley hugs Nikki.) But in that scene it seems to represent the possibility to change the quality of one`s own life. In a certain sense we have such a change also in the street girls on the street scene, when suddenly the song begins, haven`t we?

I didn't hear anything, but I'll turn the sound up next time.


Her mouth is open for a short while and I think something comes from it. Could be "Sieben", "Smithy" or "yes", maybe.

You mean when the Dern character is taking a walk? I have never understood what that is supposed to be. I have never seen a face in it.


Yes, when she is taking a walk. Probably it isn`t a waterfall, but maybe some stars which glow for short moments. It seems that there`s a "Nosferatu-like" person behind it.

They have a twisting sort of trunk but they twist the opposite way here from in Australia from what I've been told.


The world is an interesting place. :)

More and more I like the dialouge between "Dern" and "Kinski". The way "Kinski" decribes her experience and the way "Dern" reacts to it. Then I assume we have Jack in the hotel. And then we have such a great scene, haven`t we?! And I think we have a "clear" hint about whom David Lynch was able to document a glory glimpse from.
applesnoranges
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby applesnoranges » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:17 pm

MichaelPW wrote:I have done it now and the result is as follows:

- 2.02.10: Street Girls: "Hellooooo"

Thanks for all that! I have DVD software for the computer that works better so I may be able to check this with numbers. I should check this before answering.
applesnoranges
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby applesnoranges » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:14 am

My numbers are a little different but close and I've noted the differences.
MichaelPW wrote:I have done it now and the result is as follows:

- 2.02.10: Street Girls: "Hellooooo"
"Dern 1": "I`m a whore"
"Where am I?"
"I`m a freak"

I think she says "I'm afraid!" (Reflection of what the woman in the hotel room said at the start.)
- 2.02.45: "Dern 1" sees Ormond character
- 2.02.49: "Dern 2" with screwdriver and purse comes
- 2.03.08: "Dern 2" sees Axxon N.
- 2.03.25: "Dern 2" sees "Dern 1"
- 2.03.47: "Dern 2" sees Ormond character

Note: We cannot see whether "Dern 1" has a screwdriver and/or a purse so far.

- 2.04.05: CUT
"Dern" sees Ormond character
"Dern" has contact with street girls
Probably it is "Dern 2", but we cannot
see a screwdriver nor a purse; and we
contact with street girls
- 2.05.14: street girls in Poland
- 2.06.41: "Dern" with purse at Deuce 40
I cannot see a screwdriver, but it could be
there; probably it is "Dern 2"
- 2.07.26: "Dern" in dancing room
- 2.08.08: someone gets "Dern"
- 2.09.05: stairs
- 2.09.14: "Dern" with screwdriver enters room, in
which Mr. K is; probably "Dern 2"; flash-
backs; new things
- 2.12.16: CUT
"...son died ...bad time..."
- 2.14.18: "Dern" leaves
- 2.15.19: "Where have you been"
As if "Dern 2" were "Dern 1"

Probably a key point to notice.
- 2.15.22: "Dern" sees Ormond character
- 2.15.47: "Dern": "Hey"

OK I see all these. Now to see what to make of it.
No, primarily I mean the place in which "Dern 1" is. Assuming it is right what she says: Prostitution can be seen as trade. And trade is something to do on the marketplace. But we have "lost in the marketplace", which can refer to the dying scene I think. It seems that "Dern 2" is the one who follows the alley behind the marketplace as she sees Axxon N., decides about the quality of her life and is with Mr. K.

Yes, OK. But the "Star Market" may be a clue that this is Dern #1. So at what point did we switch from #2 who just left Mr. K.'s office to #1?
Probably the one who is killed by the Ormond character doesn`t realize that the screwdriver falls on "Dorothy L`amour". I think it`s relative unrealistic that one would draw the screwdriver out of one`s own in such a situation.

So you think this is Dern #2? The fact that she hands the screwdriver makes it seem that this is part of Nikki's performance. I'm saying that Dern #2 is performed by Nikki. Does that seem right? Then again, if it is #1 who dies on the street, when does she replace #2?
Hollywood and Vine I think can also be regarded as features of a marketplace. A place where actors sell their performances. In a certain sense these signs are opposite signs to the "Axxon N."-sign. The one who sees those signs gets lost. Lost in the marketplace. Maybe the one who dies hallucinates about possible solutions to get out of the situation. About the way to the palace (=Pomona?). Maybe one part of her soul says "I never heard about such a bus", but another says "You can get there for 3,50". All in all that could mean that it is her own decision. That she can fill in the Xes.

I don't see much in the decision. It seems mostly a way to make the scene seem to be really happening (veristic style). Pomona means several things. It's a line from SB; someone says of a script something like, "It'll play big in Pomona." Apparently in old Hollywood it was an expression for a low grade movie because Pomona was thought to be away from the center of things. That is, Hollywood people thought themselves to be hip and the people "out in the sticks" to be squares. Also, spicytictac on imdb said some things about the Goddess Pomona who seem to relate. I think in my "what trouble" thread. She is associated with green and can turn herself into a man, etc. I don't remember exactly.
Yes, at least if they got the information (that it is a famous place) some time in their earlier life and remember that. It`s also the place of a dream production. And dreams are appearances - like phantoms.

Yes, it would be one of those promo ideas like "Where stars make dreams and dreams make stars." The movie industry moved to southern California in the early days when promoters were trying to get people from the east to move out here. So there were myths generated (like the ones you read about recently). One could become cured of disease here, one could get a job here, one could have good weather all year around. So "Hollywood and Vine" reminds me of all that. There is a great, great book where I read all this called City of Quartz by Mike Davis.
Very intense scene. I think the order of the scenes - that Sue discovers her husband (in a seemingly murderous mental state) in the middle of the night, then her depression (suppressed mental activity) scene and then the scene in which Devon is dead suggest that her husband really killed Devon. That puts her husband in a murderous light. Maybe she realizes in the scene above that her husband is planning a murder.

I can't draw any conclusions about these things yet. There was a way of writing poetry that William Burroughs liked and called the "cut up technique": you take something written and cut the page in pieces and rearrange it and meanings emerge from it, meanings the poet did not guide but which reveal things about what is written. IE seems to be made in a similar way. E.g. the woman in white and Sue's husband saying the same lines (I'm not who you think I am, etc.) So I don't know what to make of seeing Devon dead except that emotionally it supports what you say. If it "really happened" I don't know.
So maybe the cause of the mental problems of the monolog woman comes from the phantom (=an appearance) ("He`s in the near. That`s for sure."), although she didn`t trade with appearances when she was living. But maybe related persons of her dealed with appearances - and that had an effect to her, too.

I don't understand any of what you are saying here.

(I don`t know the position of the LB when Kingsley hugs Nikki.) But in that scene it seems to represent the possibility to change the quality of one`s own life. In a certain sense we have such a change also in the street girls on the street scene, when suddenly the song begins, haven`t we?

I think the LB is gone. Will you check? There is a slight possibility that when the makeup crew cleaned her up that they wiped it off, though I don't think so. But ... when she reaches into the drawer, the LB is brighter and bolder than ever. See if you see that. To me it means that now that she knows that she is dead, and, in a sense, dreaming, that she can control everything. She can walk through the movie sets and find everything from Smithy's House to the rabbit room.
Her mouth is open for a short while and I think something comes from it. Could be "Sieben", "Smithy" or "yes", maybe.

Haven't checked yet.
Yes, when she is taking a walk. Probably it isn`t a waterfall, but maybe some stars which glow for short moments. It seems that there`s a "Nosferatu-like" person behind it.

I know that I can't tell what it is. Lynch wanted it there for some reason but I don't get it. Again I'll check for the person next time.
They have a twisting sort of trunk but they twist the opposite way here from in Australia from what I've been told.

The world is an interesting place. :)

When water swirls down a drain, it swirls the opposite way. Maybe they eat spaghetti backwards down there by turning the fork in the opposite direction.
More and more I like the dialouge between "Dern" and "Kinski". The way "Kinski" decribes her experience and the way "Dern" reacts to it. Then I assume we have Jack in the hotel. And then we have such a great scene, haven`t we?! And I think we have a "clear" hint about whom David Lynch was able to document a glory glimpse from.

Yes, Jack gets around. Seems to know about the hotel scene from the beginning. But then he is seen on the stairway that leads to Mr. K.'s office and to the séance room. I don't know what clear hint you mean.
MichaelPW
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:46 am

applesnoranges wrote:I think she says "I'm afraid!" (Reflection of what the woman in the hotel room said at the start.)


I think German subtitles say "Freak". She doesn`t look like as she would be afraid in that moment. I don`t want to imagine that the German translation was made from listening and translating. Like the idea that the translation was made from a down written English version. But that would also mean "I will go to the city" in another place.

Probably a key point to notice.


They probably think "You`re one of us", "We know you", while "Dern 2" probably thinks "Again those street girls".

I wonder why we have that Polish part in the sequence and why "Dern" is aware of the fact that someone is following her. Maybe she wasn`t aware of that fact in her former life. Lost Girl only looks to the "two street girls", but not behind her, although there is someone (maybe woman in white who will kill her) and although the "two street" girls point to that someone in a certain sense.

Yes, OK. But the "Star Market" may be a clue that this is Dern #1. So at what point did we switch from #2 who just left Mr. K.'s office to #1?


Obviously and probably there isn`t such a switch. But on the other side the woman who dies stands up, solves the problem and will be in the palace.

The fact that she hands the screwdriver makes it seem that this is part of Nikki's performance.


I think the Ormond character comes from behind and takes the screwdriver. So "Dern 2" wouldn`t be aware of that process. She maybe wouldn`t expect it. Therefore she could have her arm relative relaxed. That could lead to what we see.

I'm saying that Dern #2 is performed by Nikki. Does that seem right?


Yes, that seems right.

Then again, if it is #1 who dies on the street, when does she replace #2?


Probably it is #2 who dies on the street and who follows the alley. Obviously we see #1 only as being on the marketplace, cursed, until the curse will be broken.

Also, spicytictac on imdb said some things about the Goddess Pomona who seem to relate. I think in my "what trouble" thread. She is associated with green and can turn herself into a man, etc. I don't remember exactly.


Oh, that`s quite interesting. Will try to find some more information about that Goddess.

There is a great, great book where I read all this called City of Quartz by Mike Davis.


Thank you for that hint!

IE seems to be made in a similar way.


It`s like a dream.

I know that I can't tell what it is. Lynch wanted it there for some reason but I don't get it. Again I'll check for the person next time.


It really seems to be a Nosferatu-like person. Or Nosferatu itself. Maybe we have some "beaming" here. I think that Nosferatu was one of the first movies.

I don't know what clear hint you mean.


I think we have some letters.
applesnoranges
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby applesnoranges » Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:51 am

MichaelPW wrote:I think German subtitles say "Freak". She doesn`t look like as she would be afraid in that moment. I don`t want to imagine that the German translation was made from listening and translating. Like the idea that the translation was made from a down written English version. But that would also mean "I will go to the city" in another place.

It kind of looks like someone listened because it relates to the opening as "afraid" and there probably is no written version; they just got the film and titled it. No, the point is that she is not afraid. She is making fun of the woman at the beginning of the movie who was hypnotized and forced into prostitution. Well now that you mention it, I think I will go to the city myself. They have especially good coffee in San Francisco's North Beach. :twisted:

They probably think "You`re one of us", "We know you", while "Dern 2" probably thinks "Again those street girls".

I don't remember where we were but I have another thought: Maybe the saying, "Hellllooooo...." is the first thing that happens in the movie and also the last thing. The movie is like a carousel and this is a place to get on. It seems to be where we meet the Woman in Trouble, and then she does down the alley, upstairs, etc.
I wonder why we have that Polish part in the sequence and why "Dern" is aware of the fact that someone is following her. Maybe she wasn`t aware of that fact in her former life. Lost Girl only looks to the "two street girls", but not behind her, although there is someone (maybe woman in white who will kill her) and although the "two street" girls point to that someone in a certain sense.

I can't describe all that either but it is a complex scene in that way. It is as if many reflections in the movie come together at that point. I can't relate this scene to the other Polish scenes and we are dragged into this scene by the curly haired prostitute from Hollywood Blvd. So, again, everything seems to be a reflection.

Yes, OK. But the "Star Market" may be a clue that this is Dern #1. So at what point did we switch from #2 who just left Mr. K.'s office to #1?

Obviously and probably there isn`t such a switch. But on the other side the woman who dies stands up, solves the problem and will be in the palace.

I am giving up the idea that there are two women, a real one and one performed by Nikki; I have been convinced that they re the same woman at different times but one of those times is a reflection of the other and so seen at the same time.

This happens in Mulholland Dr. too, in the scene in Diane's apartment where Camilla breaks up with her. We see, at the same time, things that could only be there at different times. (Diane in her white robe and the green vase of flowers; it happens for only one frame, but it is there.)

I think the Ormond character comes from behind and takes the screwdriver. So "Dern 2" wouldn`t be aware of that process. She maybe wouldn`t expect it. Therefore she could have her arm relative relaxed. That could lead to what we see.

Maybe, but what seems unusual is that Nikki's arm rises as Doris passes. That is what looks like passing the screwdriver to me.
I'm saying that Dern #2 is performed by Nikki. Does that seem right?

Yes, that seems right.

But now I think both are performed by Nikki; there is no other Dern character; only the same one at different times.
Probably it is #2 who dies on the street and who follows the alley. Obviously we see #1 only as being on the marketplace, cursed, until the curse will be broken.

I don't know if I remember right but I think we were calling the frightened one Dern #1 and the laughing one #2; anyway, it is easier for me to think of them as the laughing one and the frightened one. Now I don't know what happened to the laughing one, but it seems to be the frightened one who goes down the alley and up the stairs, then downstairs and dies. She then becomes Nikki and goes through the whole movie then shows up as the laughing one because she now knows that nothing happened to her. It just keeps going around and around each time we see the movie.
Also, spicytictac on imdb said some things about the Goddess Pomona who seem to relate. I think in my "what trouble" thread. She is associated with green and can turn herself into a man, etc. I don't remember exactly.

Oh, that`s quite interesting. Will try to find some more information about that Goddess.

spicy said:

something i've been considering regarding visitor 1 is the story of pomona, the goddess of fruit trees, gardens, and orchards, who is tricked into marriage by vertumnus (vert =the color green= the man in the green jacket?) vertumnus, the god of seasons, change and...plant growth... tricks pomona by changing into an old woman,(he can shapeshift into anything) thereby gaining access to her orchard and tells her a manipulative story of woman who upon rejecting a male suitor's marriage proposal is turned to stone. she then marries him out of fear. i can't help but notice the parallels between what piotrek says and what V1 say about actions having consequences, marriage and threats of dark murder~almost as if they are the same person intimidating dern. just a lil' something to consider when exausting all the allegory, myth and madness of IE. is nikki like pomona? could the phantom be a shapeshifter taking the forms of visitors 1 and 2, piotrek, and devon...and dern herself tricking her into relationship? could the phantom holding gruzka's hand be symbolic of taking her hand in marriage?

Lost my train of thought....
Carl
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby Carl » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:11 pm

Goodness, I have a lot above to read before I can put in my 2 cents worth, on this Thread. :)

'...Yes, as far as I know David Lynch said that he doesn`t know what exactly IE means. But that doesn`t mean that there isn`t a story behind it somewhere. And human beings like to think in patterns of causality. So someone has something like IE and searches for something to make it more understandable - perhaps. ...'

My sentiments, exactly. Though, I would not like to descend to the level of the narrator of Nabokov's Pale Fire in so doing, who mistakes an epic, tragic poem by his murdered neighbor as being based on his own fantasy life and annotates the poem, thus producing the novel in which he is a character. Or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
Remember, it's only paranoia if it ain't so, but it's a Statistical Error either way. :lol:
applesnoranges
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby applesnoranges » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:33 pm

Carl wrote:Goodness, I have a lot above to read before I can put in my 2 cents worth, on this Thread. :)

I've just been wondering lately how the thread entries got so long. It seems someone writes a paragraph then someone else splits it in parts to comment on those parts, then they become topics which split etc.
My sentiments, exactly. Though, I would not like to descend to the level of the narrator of Nabokov's Pale Fire in so doing, who mistakes an epic, tragic poem by his murdered neighbor as being based on his own fantasy life and annotates the poem, thus producing the novel in which he is a character. Or something.

I've often thought that discussions of Lynch movies are just like that. Pale Fire is much more complex than that though; that is only the first level of it. It winds up being at least as complex as Lynch because there are suggestions that Kinbot is a fictional character created by Shade, so Kinbot and Shade seem to write each other like an Escher drawing. There It's great fun looking into. Just search the name or Zembla.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

I didn't know that word. Thanks.
MichaelPW
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:36 am

Yes, thank you Carl for that interesting new word. I heard that mathematics is finding structures. Assume that it would be horrible to find structures there that wouldn`t be right.
MichaelPW
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:26 am

applesnoranges wrote:She is making fun of the woman at the beginning of the movie who was hypnotized and forced into prostitution.


Or she is making fun of herself in an ill manner. Also that she laughs to the street girls in that way is quite sick. Probably "Dern2" sees herself in more trouble than she had expected. So what allows her to make her see. And what allows her to see that someone follows her? Maybe she already through-lived a life where - for example - following her led to a bad result for her and maybe she has now the chance to do something against such a possible bad result. Maybe following the alley gives her that chance.

btw - She uses the password C/Karolina. What exactly does "Piotrek" say in MTTH when he is leaving. First times it sounded to me as "I`m going out". But more and more I get the impression that he says a kind of password like "Andorina". Sounds a little bit like "Karolina", doesn`t it?

and btw - I think I`m not so good in reading lip movements. But it would be quite interesting to find out what name "the monolog woman" uses when she says his name. Maybe she says Smithy and maybe she "isn`t" with Mr. K in reality, but in front of a fire.

Well now that you mention it, I think I will go to the city myself. They have especially good coffee in San Francisco's North Beach.


Perhaps I will go to the city on Friday. They have there an excellent marzipan. :)

Maybe the saying, "Hellllooooo...." is the first thing that happens in the movie and also the last thing. The movie is like a carousel and this is a place to get on. It seems to be where we meet the Woman in Trouble, and then she does down the alley, upstairs, etc.


Could be, but that would be a "negative" way of interpreting the movie. And I know that you generally look for a positive one. "Dern1" - who we see "only" relative little seems to represent a bad possible outcome of "her" life. She seems to be on the marketplace selling herself. And "Dern2" seems to follow the alley. On the other side the street girls - as we see them in MTTH - seem to be quite creative. The one who is speaking into the phone seem not really to have a call, but inventing one. Perhaps to give herself some hope for the possibilty to get some food.

I can't relate this scene to the other Polish scenes and we are dragged into this scene by the curly haired prostitute from Hollywood Blvd.


Yes, it seems not to be easy to relate it to the other Polish scenes. But apparently it is a place where prostitutes are. And also the scene in which "the phantom" hits "Gruszka" seem to come from a prostitute-relationship.

So, again, everything seems to be a reflection.


I think that Visitor 1 says some true things about reflections.

I am giving up the idea that there are two women, a real one and one performed by Nikki; I have been convinced that they re the same woman at different times but one of those times is a reflection of the other and so seen at the same time.


Nikki sees a marketplace-version of herself. Obviously she is given the chance to be an alley-version.

We see, at the same time, things that could only be there at different times. (Diane in her white robe and the green vase of flowers; it happens for only one frame, but it is there.)


Are you sure? It`s hard to imagine that such details could have such a constitutional might. But maybe you are right about that. Don`t know the details of MD in that way.

Maybe, but what seems unusual is that Nikki's arm rises as Doris passes. That is what looks like passing the screwdriver to me.


Perhaps her arm rises, because she is relative relaxed. Imagine you`re standing somewhere with something in your hand and one comes from behind and takes that something out of your hand. Could lead to an arm rising, couldn`t it.

But now I think both are performed by Nikki; there is no other Dern character; only the same one at different times.


I see those not as one at different times, but as one in different possibilties. One is the possibility of following the alley and one is the possibilty of being on the marketplace.

anyway, it is easier for me to think of them as the laughing one and the frightened one.


The "laughing" one seem to have more mental problems than the frightened one.

Now I don't know what happened to the laughing one, but it seems to be the frightened one who goes down the alley and up the stairs, then downstairs and dies.


Yes; probably the "laughing" one is cursed to be on the marketplace. Maybe we have a kind of reflection when "Dern2" sees "Dern1". What could this mean? Perhaps that evil was born and followed the "boy". So maybe "Dern1" follows "Dern2" as the Ormond character. But "Dern2" follows the alley what will lead to the palace.
applesnoranges
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby applesnoranges » Thu May 01, 2008 12:41 am

quote="MichaelPW"]
applesnoranges wrote:She is making fun of the woman at the beginning of the movie who was hypnotized and forced into prostitution.

Or she is making fun of herself in an ill manner. Also that she laughs to the street girls in that way is quite sick. Probably "Dern2" sees herself in more trouble than she had expected. So what allows her to make her see. And what allows her to see that someone follows her? Maybe she already through-lived a life where - for example - following her led to a bad result for her and maybe she has now the chance to do something against such a possible bad result. Maybe following the alley gives her that chance.

I guess all those things are parts of the meaning. When she sees Ormond she says, "Someone's there!" She doesn't say who it is or that she recognizes her, but she thinks that person is going to kill her and she is right. Maybe she knows who it is and doesn't want to admit it.
btw - She uses the password C/Karolina. What exactly does "Piotrek" say in MTTH when he is leaving. First times it sounded to me as "I`m going out". But more and more I get the impression that he says a kind of password like "Andorina". Sounds a little bit like "Karolina", doesn`t it?

It doesn't sound like that to me because I clearly hear him saying, "I'm going out now."
and btw - I think I`m not so good in reading lip movements. But it would be quite interesting to find out what name "the monolog woman" uses when she says his name. Maybe she says Smithy and maybe she "isn`t" with Mr. K in reality, but in front of a fire.

I didn't realize that we could see that. I'll look next time and also for the fire scene.
Maybe the saying, "Hellllooooo...." is the first thing that happens in the movie

Could be, but that would be a "negative" way of interpreting the movie. And I know that you generally look for a positive one.

Well if it goes in a circle then there are good parts and bad parts. The good parts, such as her resurrection, the freedom of Lost Girl, the ballerina, etc. are so very powerfully positive that they make the film seem that way for me anyway. Especially since everything is resolved at the end from our point of view watching it.
"Dern1" - who we see "only" relative little seems to represent a bad possible outcome of "her" life. She seems to be on the marketplace selling herself. And "Dern2" seems to follow the alley. On the other side the street girls - as we see them in MTTH - seem to be quite creative. The one who is speaking into the phone seem not really to have a call, but inventing one. Perhaps to give herself some hope for the possibilty to get some food.

I don't see what you are noticing here. When she shows up and they say Helllooooo, and she says, "I'm a whore, I'm afraid!", she just seems happy to know that it is not true. She still has her crazy imaginary friends but she seems to be having a good time. I don't know what you mean about the woman making the phone call. It seems like in MTTH where they are all making deals.
Yes, it seems not to be easy to relate it to the other Polish scenes. But apparently it is a place where prostitutes are. And also the scene in which "the phantom" hits "Gruszka" seem to come from a prostitute-relationship.

Yes, but there is something about the same girls being in Lodz and Hollywood that always makes me think that I am almost understanding something. Maybe it will come to me and I'll understand it. I need to see it again and notice when these things happen relative to each other.
We see, at the same time, things that could only be there at different times. (Diane in her white robe and the green vase of flowers; it happens for only one frame, but it is there.)

Are you sure? It`s hard to imagine that such details could have such a constitutional might.

Yes, there are many impossible anomalies in that sequence in the apartment. When was Camilla there? When was the apartment switch? When was the masturbation scene (the spoon is still in the coffee can in the background). These things cannot be known.
Maybe, but what seems unusual is that Nikki's arm rises as Doris passes. That is what looks like passing the screwdriver to me.

Perhaps her arm rises, because she is relative relaxed. Imagine you`re standing somewhere with something in your hand and one comes from behind and takes that something out of your hand. Could lead to an arm rising, couldn`t it.

Yes, but even that way it seems the same to me. She says to the girls, "Watch this move!", then she goes limp as if she knows the Ormond character will come and take the screwdriver.
But now I think both are performed by Nikki; there is no other Dern character; only the same one at different times.

I see those not as one at different times, but as one in different possibilties. One is the possibility of following the alley and one is the possibilty of being on the marketplace.

Yes, I agree; I mean at different times that we see them, not at different times in one life. Reflections.
The "laughing" one seem to have more mental problems than the frightened one.

I don't know. In any case, she seems under less stress.
Now I don't know what happened to the laughing one, but it seems to be the frightened one who goes down the alley and up the stairs, then downstairs and dies.

So maybe "Dern1" follows "Dern2" as the Ormond character.
[/quote]
Do you mean that the Ormond character becomes another reflection of her? Then why does the Ormond woman who is stabbed end up in the police station and the Dern one end up dying on the street?

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