This Is The Street

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Carl
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby Carl » Thu May 01, 2008 11:36 pm

Sue sees her reflection across the street. That reflection comes to life 'and Evil is born'. She flees this ( which may be the recognition of the evil in herself, perhaps) by blustering her way into the club.
Evil, as a reflection, is the normal aspect reversed: left for right, good for bad.
Of course, in many varieties of gnosticism ( and it's not really so different in standard judaeo/xian dogma) self-awareness is the Original Sin.
applesnoranges
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby applesnoranges » Fri May 02, 2008 12:09 am

If I saw myself across the street doing anything, I'd be pretty scared. But laughing at me, for any reason, I think would scare me even more.
MichaelPW
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Fri May 02, 2008 4:44 am

Carl wrote:Of course, in many varieties of gnosticism ( and it's not really so different in standard judaeo/xian dogma) self-awareness is the Original Sin.


And do you know reasons for that? Why is self-awareness the Original Sin there?

The Dern character probably sees the marketplace-version of herself. This version seems to have decided a short time ago to resignate and to think that there`s now way out. She laughes to the street girls. What a bad view for the Dern character who sees that - not only that she sees a version of herself being with street girls, but also that she sees that version having a "good time" with those street girls.
Carl
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby Carl » Fri May 02, 2008 12:50 pm

I meant to say, she sees her reflection, at first, literally, in a storefront window glass or some reflective surface. Then it 'comes to life' and laughs. (...and thanx for bringing these particular, two Sues to my attention.)
**The resoning behind the gnostic viewpoints about original sin, as well as the standard xian, briefly, is that self-awareness leads to a distinction between the Creator and the Created and the Creator doesn't like this,( being a jealous Creator).
In many of the gnostic creation myths, the world is evil, the result of Sophia ( knowledge) attempting to emulate her master ( god) by creating something ( our world) and partially failing. This would be the 'origin of evil.' The three monotheistic religions that have fomented such turmoil in our world all have this in common: such 'Dualism' is not allowed.
Kabbala is a late form of gnosticism; as is Tarot, as well as, to varying extents, sundry other 'Hermetic' and 'occult' traditions. ( I know there's more to it than that. Google. )
I dunno if DL intended any of this ancient stuff to relate to anything in IE. I tend to analyze narrative and dramatic art in terms of the stuff, as well as in terms of Jungian 'depth psychology', because I am familiar with these systems.
IMO, they work much better for studying art than for life. :)
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Sun May 04, 2008 6:37 am

applesnoranges wrote:It doesn't sound like that to me because I clearly hear him saying, "I'm going out now."


The more often I watch it the less I hear "I'm going out now." And what does she say before? Does she say "Is something here?"? And would be that fitting to the situation? Yesterday I saw a documentary about Grimm`s fairy tails. Interestingly an expert said about them something like: "It`s like in the Carolina - reflected punishment." Assume that the Carolina was proposed by Karl The Fith.

I didn't realize that we could see that. I'll look next time and also for the fire scene.


Are there two siblings like in Smithy or are there three like in Piotrek? I tend to Smithy.

I don't see what you are noticing here.


The street girls in MTTH don`t seem to really make phone calls. For example, they take the receiver and immediaetly talk or just hold the receiver or have them on their shoulder. They combine different experiences to one phone call. When it comes in fact to a deal it has an extremely effect on them.

When she shows up and they say Helllooooo, and she says, "I'm a whore, I'm afraid!", she just seems happy to know that it is not true.


She seems to have decided to resignate.

She still has her crazy imaginary friends but she seems to be having a good time.


She accepts her misery-marketplace-life, because she sees no way out.

Do you mean that the Ormond character becomes another reflection of her?


Maybe the Ormond character is the born evil one in the moment when it came to the reflection. Maybe then that evil one followed "the girl". Perhaps we have another reflection in front of Deuce 40. The door watcher`s job maybe is to look if there`s a certain similarity to his own appearance - with regard to clothes and behaviour.
MichaelPW
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Sun May 04, 2008 7:26 am

Carl wrote:**The resoning behind the gnostic viewpoints about original sin, as well as the standard xian, briefly, is that self-awareness leads to a distinction between the Creator and the Created and the Creator doesn't like this,( being a jealous Creator).


As far as I know gnostic sources aren`t accepted as "religious" textes. I would like to know why they thought that this would lead to a distinction.

Yes, there`s the bid "You shall have no other gods besides me". But I assume that it is very difficult to decide why it is there. For inventors it could have the function to eliminate other religions. But in the case it comes from god - what is then? What is if god doesn`t have the weakness to be jealous, but sees what is a good way for humans? Maybe following the bid leads to prosperity and richness.

In many of the gnostic creation myths, the world is evil, the result of Sophia ( knowledge) attempting to emulate her master ( god) by creating something ( our world) and partially failing.


Ah, I see - emulation. Trying to create a big fish. I agree with David Lynch that this isn`t possible. But isn`t it impossible for Sophia to see that? Why shouldn`t it be possible to accept the godly ocean?

The three monotheistic religions that have fomented such turmoil in our world all have this in common: such 'Dualism' is not allowed.


So maybe there`s something wrong. I don`t know why "Sophia and god" couldn`t "live" in harmony with each other. Perhaps it is the absence of insight of some people (like some "interested" in genetics). But absence of insight probably isn`t a feature of Sophia. Rahter Sophia probably is a feature of god.

I dunno if DL intended any of this ancient stuff to relate to anything in IE. I tend to analyze narrative and dramatic art in terms of the stuff, as well as in terms of Jungian 'depth psychology', because I am familiar with these systems.
IMO, they work much better for studying art than for life. :)


I guess it depends on how much meaning people see in religious "informations". Probably the more meaning they see the more effects the "content" has on their lives.

What do you think what CG Jung would think if someone would tell him "I stood at the street and asked two women if they had seen me before. They laughed at me and one of the two made a kind of circular pointing movement with her finger".

What do you think what CG Jung would think if he would see the moon in Inland Empire?

What do you think what CG Jung would think as Mr. K and what do you think what he would suggest her if he would suggest something?
applesnoranges
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby applesnoranges » Sun May 04, 2008 7:54 pm

I don't mean to interrupt because this is off topic, but the mention of Jung reminded me of something. Once I went to someone's house and found her extremely high on LSD. So just for fun I told her that I had just read that Jung had said that he once dreamed that he was flying as if he were an airplane and dropping turds like bombs on people below. My friend asked,

"What happened to Jung's turd when it fell through all nine of Beethoven's symphonies?"
MichaelPW
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Mon May 05, 2008 3:42 am

:)

The inventor of LSD died these days at the age of 102.
Carl
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby Carl » Tue May 06, 2008 10:54 pm

Being possessed by, lost in, a Persona, is a typical situation, according to Jung. ( Anyone who knows more about the actual therapy involved, feel free to push me aside and do the explaining, here.) One's own personality gets lost behind the Mask.
Jung, in my opinon, could do nothing to help Sue, because, after all, she is the Persona ( Role) that Nikki is trapped in. Jung might attempt to 'cure' Nikki of such an identification, but that would indeed 'hurt her performance.' :wink:
The more high status a Persona is ( such as a Judge, a Physician, a Movie Star, a Statesman) the more often such an identification ensues, so that one is reluctant to cast off the Persona at any time.
For instance look at the pitiful spectacle of Hugo Chavez, Robert Mugabe, Vladimir Putin; the List is a long one, of creepy politicians reluctant to leave office when their term is done, rather like a soap opera character refusing to be 'killed off' when their role is written out of the script.
One of the things notable about Sue is the way she rejects the Persona of the victim. Alas, when she is a victim, this leads her to deny reality, which leads, as usual, to unhappiness. Although her toughness seems admirable, it is based on a false self image and lies. If there were a Dr. K. in the house, he might try to bring Sue to realize that so much of her story is fabricated, that her veneer of toughness prevents her from coming to terms with both her own victimization and transgressions , i.e., for the latter, her adultery and attempt to pass off the resulting child as Smithy's. ( Men tend to really resent this behavior.)
More than any of the Possessed ( are these in fact the 'half-born' or 'half's that are referred to?) Sue senses that 'something is wrong', that she is not the person that she thinks she is. Others, true, say ' I'm not the person you think I am', e.g. Smithy, but, correctly or not, seem to at least know who they are, themselves.

**The reunion of Smithy, Lost Girl and the kid they could not produce, seems to be that of the fictional characters in
4 7/OHIBT, not the actors who portrayed them, though it could, I suppose, be the metaphysical , transcendental union of the actors and the characters.
'...how to tell the singer from the song...' -Yeats
***Perhaps it's best if I do not continue the Gnostic rap, as it might offend someone's religious sensibilities.
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jina
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby jina » Wed May 07, 2008 10:09 am

Carl wrote:Being possessed by, lost in, a Persona, is a typical situation, according to Jung. ( Anyone who knows more about the actual therapy involved, feel free to push me aside and do the explaining, here.) One's own personality gets lost behind the Mask.


there's this link with quotes of Jung on the persona.

http://psikoloji.fisek.com.tr/jung/persona.htm

One could say, with a little exaggeration, that the persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is.
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Sat May 10, 2008 2:11 pm

MichaelPW wrote:Does she say "Is something here?"?


It really sounds like coming from "Laura Dern". But is that true?
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Sat May 10, 2008 3:25 pm

Carl wrote:Being possessed by, lost in, a Persona, is a typical situation, according to Jung.


I think Jung proposed that another person can`t see someone without the Persona. That always led to the question in me how it would be possible that the Persona is active when someone is observed without knowing it.

Maybe Nikki got lost in the Persona Sue. Maybe that`s the curse. David Lynchs seem to like such a theme. It seems that Norma Desmond got lost in her Persona, too.

Perhaps familiarity in IE means something like "being in a field without Personas". "She"`s in a kind of sleep and opens her eyes and gets informations from Lost Girl.

Maybe ones who are able to see the "face" behind the Persona are, for example, guardian angels. So maybe Nikki asks her guardian angels optimistically if they had seen her before. But perhaps they aren`t interested in Personas and think "As long as you won`t take off your Persona we don`t will give you familiarity".

The clown mask we see maybe represents a quite static Persona which leads to disharmony as inside is a "face" full of despair.

Maybe Nikki`s husband thinks (and draws consequences) that when his wife only displays her Persona to him he will do that in the future, as well (going to the circus).

Jung might attempt to 'cure' Nikki of such an identification, but that would indeed 'hurt her performance.' :wink:


Yes, the environment - at least to some extent - seems to have an interest that Nikki beholds her Persona.

Also Devon obviously wants a "Persona-Nikki". He`s not interested in seeing what is behind the mask. He`s hiding behind his own mask while having sex with her. But what is behind his mask? Someone who feels something like glowing gold?

The more high status a Persona is ( such as a Judge, a Physician, a Movie Star, a Statesman) the more often such an identification ensues, so that one is reluctant to cast off the Persona at any time.


Nikki easily can be seen as a very famous Movie Star. In addition to that she is probably married to the mightiest man in town. "Good" conditions for getting lost in the Persona.

For instance look at the pitiful spectacle of Hugo Chavez, Robert Mugabe, Vladimir Putin; the List is a long one, of creepy politicians reluctant to leave office when their term is done, rather like a soap opera character refusing to be 'killed off' when their role is written out of the script.


Yes, also Chancellor Schröder in Germany obviously didn`t understand that he wasn`t elected again after foredrawn elections.

More than any of the Possessed ( are these in fact the 'half-born' or 'half's that are referred to?) Sue senses that 'something is wrong', that she is not the person that she thinks she is. Others, true, say ' I'm not the person you think I am', e.g. Smithy, but, correctly or not, seem to at least know who they are, themselves.


Probably the Persona has a quite small meaning for inner harmony. The guardian angels have as good as no interest to deal with the Persona. It seems that Nikki fell in love with Devon. She seems to search reasons for his no deeper interest. One such (self-protecting) reason could be that he wants to maintain his mask. Maybe she reacts with "maintaining" her mask. But she feels that something is wrong. She wants to know what behind Devon`s mask is.
I think the primarily thing behind "I'm not the person you think I am" from Smithy is "I`m not the father of your child - I know that - don`t try to establish a cuckoo-child!".
Assume that the halfs refer to Nikki and Lost Girl. It seems that the being trapped in the phantom`s hand led to the splitting. The rabbits know how to put the parts together again and give Nikki the advice to follow the alley.

**The reunion of Smithy, Lost Girl and the kid they could not produce, seems to be that of the fictional characters in
4 7/OHIBT, not the actors who portrayed them, though it could, I suppose, be the metaphysical , transcendental union of the actors and the characters.


We have a demonstrated parting off from something with closing the doors and the song content "Now I have to live my life". So what could be that something? But I start to like the idea of such an union of actors and characters.
Carl
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby Carl » Sat May 10, 2008 4:05 pm

'...Maybe Nikki got lost in the Persona Sue...'
I think so. One of those lovely, perhaps imaginary, friends of hers ( Dory, maybe?) says ' In the future, when you wake from a dream, a kind of sleep, there will be someone familiar there.'
That 'someone' seems to be Kingsley, the director. Although she is still dazed, like a sleepwalker, she is now shaking off the curse of possession, drawing back from her role as Sue and, perhaps as well, from her Persona as Nikki, into ' the real world' , where she has a task to perform ( killing the Phantom.)
It still seems to me that all this should make more sense than it does. :?

EDIT: We watched the end again. It's not Dory, who says it, but one of the other sweeties.
Perhaps it's not Kingsley, that is the 'someone familiar' that she sees, but Lost Girl. ( Finally, someone sees the Lost Girl!)
I really can make no rational sense of Nikki's wanderings from place to place following her awakening. Possibly, none is intended or necessary. This is against my own desires, though, for the deeper meanings of this fine movie.
Last edited by Carl on Mon May 12, 2008 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby jina » Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 am

Michael, great post!!


Maybe ones who are able to see the "face" behind the Persona are, for example, guardian angels. So maybe Nikki asks her guardian angels optimistically if they had seen her before. But perhaps they aren`t interested in Personas and think "As long as you won`t take off your Persona we don`t will give you familiarity".


not like this exactly, but she remembers something and she's not sure about it. she doesn't understand but she's not in a complete ignorance either.
but the girls don't say that exactly. they just can't do something about it so it's only up to her to understand. they can't make her understand or give her familiarity, it's not something someone can give.

Maybe Nikki`s husband thinks (and draws consequences) that when his wife only displays her Persona to him he will do that in the future, as well (going to the circus).


ha! like everybody else does in real life! :lol:

Also Devon obviously wants a "Persona-Nikki". He`s not interested in seeing what is behind the mask. He`s hiding behind his own mask while having sex with her. But what is behind his mask? Someone who feels something like glowing gold?


true. and very well put!
their love is creating an illusion. and they are trapped in it.

Nikki easily can be seen as a very famous Movie Star. In addition to that she is probably married to the mightiest man in town. "Good" conditions for getting lost in the Persona.


yes.

Probably the Persona has a quite small meaning for inner harmony. The guardian angels have as good as no interest to deal with the Persona.


and on the other hand, the Persona makes the one who has it unable to see.
but it seems that Sue's persona, gives Nikki's persona some insight.

It seems that Nikki fell in love with Devon. She seems to search reasons for his no deeper interest. One such (self-protecting) reason could be that he wants to maintain his mask. Maybe she reacts with "maintaining" her mask. But she feels that something is wrong. She wants to know what behind Devon`s mask is.


that's the greater part. she is the only one who has this deeper feeling that there's something wrong.
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Re: This Is The Street

Postby MichaelPW » Mon May 12, 2008 7:18 am

Carl wrote:One of those lovely, perhaps imaginary, friends of hers ( Dory, maybe?) says ' In the future, when you wake from a dream, a kind of sleep, there will be someone familiar there.'


Generally it is probably so that those friends are representations of her thoughts. It seems that she discovered that she is only one of many. Now she imagines all the other ones. While she is doing that we have her corresponding face expressions. The red lamp seems to represent her love to Devon. The blue lamp seems to represent Devon`s non-love to her. Also Laura Dern thinks that those are representations of her character I think. ApplesNoranges and I thought that it would also be a good way to view them as guardian angels. When they are playing in Smithie`s house (doing something else) she gets problems.

That 'someone' seems to be Kingsley, the director. Although she is still dazed, like a sleepwalker, she is now shaking off the curse of possession, drawing back from her role as Sue and, perhaps as well, from her Persona as Nikki, into ' the real world' , where she has a task to perform ( killing the Phantom.)


Never thought that that someone could be Kingsley. It is possible, but I am not very convinced about it. Rather that someone seems to be Lost Girl. She opens her eyes and sees Lost Girl who gives her informations about how to use certain means.

Yes, I think we have some interesting happenings after her death scene. After that she is offered to carry white but refuses it. So she gets blue and carries this burden for a while. Now she has the opportunity "to look straight into the eyes of her other half and to be aware of this".

Then she lays blue apart. Yes, it probably symbolizes that she lays apart her Persona.

Think that the phantom can`t be killed. Rather I think that she makes a discovery here. She uses the means which finally results in seeing a clown face of herself from which comes something. Probably it comes from what is behind that clown face. Probably it represents the bleeding out of her despair.

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