RANDOM THOUGHTS III -- You have to be wearing the watch

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TheMysteryMan
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RANDOM THOUGHTS III -- You have to be wearing the watch

Postby TheMysteryMan » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:40 am

3) Someone commented of the scene in MTTH between the Lost Girl and the Phantom (where he sold her the watch) that it "doesn't represent anything on earth so it is a dream."That sounds more like the scene wouldn't conveniently fit into their theory so they dismissed it, but given the importance of the watch and time in general in the movie, this is a highly arguable point. How can we explain it in the context of the movie? Not very easily, admittedly. It mostly gets in the way of assigning some kind of back story. We could say Sue/Nikki is recreating the Lost Girl's story to understand her and redeem her in something like method acting to lengths even De Niro and Daniel Day Lewis would hesitate to go, but the watch scene means there is more than just that. So as there is Nikki/Sue, Billy/Devon, Husband/Phantom, and Doris Side/Polish Julia Ormand, there is apparently two versions of the Lost Girl as well. Take your pick howparallel universes, fractured sanity, reincarnation, etc. Maybe Lost Girl came to a bad end in Poland and then a new incarnation (I too hesitate to use "reincarnation") with some psychic remnant of the old tragedy hoped to change her luck in buying the watch, but she also knew to distrust the Phantom from that same psychic memory. Now, somewhat like Fred/Pete in LOST HIGHWAY (or maybe exactly like themon the very fringes of theory, we could say Lost Girl killed someone in Poland and had an inexplicable identity shift like Fred to Pete, and then the Phantom became her own Mystery Man), she understands she can't "change her luck"in the dual identity (Fred/Pete's jealousy of Renee/Alice destroys their respective worlds), and she needs Nikki/Sue to act for her, to break what has become her curse.


Ryan
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MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:17 pm

Assuming she is there with those psychic remnants. Do you think that buying a watch would mean here something like a suicide?
applesnoranges
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Re: RANDOM THOUGHTS III -- You have to be wearing the watch

Postby applesnoranges » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:36 pm

TheMysteryMan wrote:We could say Sue/Nikki is recreating the Lost Girl's story to understand her and redeem her in something like method acting to lengths even De Niro and Daniel Day Lewis would hesitate to go, but the watch scene means there is more than just that.

I agree that the scene is coming from Nikki because she is the one who heard about the Gypsy Folk Tale, and the Gruszka character says a couple things that are characteristic of Nikki: "I don't speak it." (from her meeting with Mr. & Mrs. Zydowicz) and "I don't understand." (in that scene and also at the table with Kingsley. But rather than thinking this was a deliberate exercise of Nikki's, I'd say it was more like a dream. She heard and remembered these things, then dreamed about them.
So as there is Nikki/Sue, Billy/Devon, Husband/Phantom, and Doris Side/Polish Julia Ormand, there is apparently two versions of the Lost Girl as well. Take your pick howparallel universes, fractured sanity, reincarnation, etc.

I find Gruszka's characters as hard to keep track of as Dern's. She is playing opposite Majchrzak, but he doesn't seem to be playing the same character who beats her up in the feature. I guess he has the same personality but in the feature they are some kind of couple in the old Polish movie, 4 7, I guess. Another thing that makes it hard to fit with the feature is that after the shooting of OHIBT is completed and she leaves the building, Lost Girl sees her on TV and she seems to become aware of that. It is as if this is the first time Nikki and Lost Girl have become aware of each other. Yet, here is this MTTH scene which seems to have something to do with Nikki.

btw: Do you know of a way to get the MTTH features on region 2? They apparently don't come with the German version that MichaelPW has.
Maybe Lost Girl came to a bad end in Poland and then a new incarnation (I too hesitate to use "reincarnation") with some psychic remnant of the old tragedy hoped to change her luck in buying the watch, but she also knew to distrust the Phantom from that same psychic memory.

Yes, I find myself trying to go two directions at once when she says, "Things have not been going so well." Does that mean that she is Lost Girl for whom things are not going so well and she buys the watch thinking it will help her? Or does it mean that buying the watch is what caused her to be trapped in the hotel room? So, again, if I see it as Nikki's dream, then it can stand outside the rest of the story, but it is still disturbing to imagine Nikki knowing about Lost Girl (unless this scene is put after the shooting of OHIBT).

And ... Visitor #2 seems to be one of the many who bought watches, who also tries to educate Sue about how to use the watch and the silk. So maybe another way of looking at it is that she was trapped in the hotel room (unable to have contact with anyone) and she bought the watch to help escape, but then was captured by the phantom but figured out how to escape by showing the use of the watch to Sue and Sue acted out a redemption for her. These story lines always get tangled somehow so maybe there is no way they can become untangled.
Now, somewhat like Fred/Pete in LOST HIGHWAY (or maybe exactly like themon the very fringes of theory, we could say Lost Girl killed someone in Poland and had an inexplicable identity shift like Fred to Pete, and then the Phantom became her own Mystery Man), she understands she can't "change her luck"in the dual identity (Fred/Pete's jealousy of Renee/Alice destroys their respective worlds), and she needs Nikki/Sue to act for her, to break what has become her curse.

I hadn't read that far when I wrote the above. It seems to be a more clear way of what I was trying to say. But like LH, the story always stays non-linear.


Ryan
http://myspace.com/chaosdomination[/quote]
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:34 pm

applesnoranges wrote:Yet, here is this MTTH scene which seems to have something to do with Nikki.


When I think about the picture-scenes and the zombie-like persons you described I think that the buying a watch scene is something like a "core"-scene. Seeing how the machinery of "hell" is working.

They apparently don't come with the German version that MichaelPW has.


I was surprised that I could watch Queen Kelly as it is in NTSC-format. So I think that I will get MTTH soon.

Yes, I find myself trying to go two directions at once when she says, "Things have not been going so well."


Another direction could be that "Things have not been going so well." is something that made her vulnerable for the soul-collector. Meaning that the phantom especially has chances on people who had problems in the recent past.

Maybe the non-understanding by Nikki with the husband`s parents makes her vulnerable for someone who is seeking sexual adventures. I think we can assume that the non-understanding is not only meant on a speech-understanding-level.
TheMysteryMan
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Suicide?

Postby TheMysteryMan » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:52 am

MichaelPW wrote:Assuming she is there with those psychic remnants. Do you think that buying a watch would mean here something like a suicide?


I didn't think of it that way originally...if it was, it wouldn' seem to be a conscious attempt. As down-trodden as she appears in that scene, though, I think she's really just trying to fix a downward spiral. And seeks the services of the worst guy for the job, to say the least.

Ryan
TheMysteryMan
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Re: RANDOM THOUGHTS III -- You have to be wearing the watch

Postby TheMysteryMan » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:26 am

I agree that the scene is coming from Nikki because she is the one who heard about the Gypsy Folk Tale, and the Gruszka character says a couple things that are characteristic of Nikki: "I don't speak it." (from her meeting with Mr. & Mrs. Zydowicz) and "I don't understand." (in that scene and also at the table with Kingsley.


Good point...I didn't factor the parallels between Nikki and Gruszka's incomprehension when someone speaks to them in Polish. Could be part of an interpretive dream on Nikki's part or another facet of Gruszka's story being recreated. But again, the one question remains--if it's Gruszka, why can't she understand the Phantom? She should know Polish. So it would seem to imply this is another manifestation of the original abused Gruszka and perhaps the Lost Girl is a separate entity as well, so that Gruszka has her own Nikki/Sue fractured identity in "reality" and then the Lost Girl outside of that. Which could be explainable in the sense that this is 47 and there's a real person it is based on and someone interpreting it to recreate the story in a film, and what we're seeing is a glimpse of how this 47 cursed played itself out before. My continued objection to this generalization is that there is no indication at all that anything which happens in Poland is from a movie or that the people involved are actors. So at best, it would just seem to be an incident that perhaps inspired the 47 film.





I find Gruszka's characters as hard to keep track of as Dern's. She is playing opposite Majchrzak, but he doesn't seem to be playing the same character who beats her up in the feature. I guess he has the same personality but in the feature they are some kind of couple in the old Polish movie, 4 7, I guess. Another thing that makes it hard to fit with the feature is that after the shooting of OHIBT is completed and she leaves the building, Lost Girl sees her on TV and she seems to become aware of that. It is as if this is the first time Nikki and Lost Girl have become aware of each other. Yet, here is this MTTH scene which seems to have something to do with Nikki.



I guess this would suggest that there is some process Nikki goes through in dying in the movie that completes her journey and allows her to meet the Lost Girl. Some believe she really dies and the movie set isn't actually there, but the confused reactions from Kingsley and the people on the set when she walks away from them without a word for me implies that it's definitely taking place within a movie. I suppose that demonstrates the tenuous relationship between where reality stops and becomes a film, as everything Sue goes through at Hollywood & Vine appears real. So I could be totally wrong about the Polish scenes not actually happening in 47.


btw: Do you know of a way to get the MTTH features on region 2? They apparently don't come with the German version that MichaelPW has.


Afraid not...I bought an all-region player 6 or 7 years ago so that there wouldn't be any releases I could buy. My copy is just the US version, though I ordered the Japanese box set with Lynch (One) and the script.



Yes, I find myself trying to go two directions at once when she says, "Things have not been going so well." Does that mean that she is Lost Girl for whom things are not going so well and she buys the watch thinking it will help her? Or does it mean that buying the watch is what caused her to be trapped in the hotel room? So, again, if I see it as Nikki's dream, then it can stand outside the rest of the story, but it is still disturbing to imagine Nikki knowing about Lost Girl (unless this scene is put after the shooting of OHIBT).


I would say separate from the Lost Girl, based on what I was saying above about how she might be different from these Nikki/Sue type manifestatios of her character. Perhaps the Lost Girl is some hybrid of both and that's why she's able to see into the events of Poland as well as what happens with OHIBT, and that for Nikki to see and understand them as well, she has to be wearing the watch and looking through the burning silk. Any ideas why she appears to Nikki superimposed over the record?

And ... Visitor #2 seems to be one of the many who bought watches, who also tries to educate Sue about how to use the watch and the silk. So maybe another way of looking at it is that she was trapped in the hotel room (unable to have contact with anyone) and she bought the watch to help escape, but then was captured by the phantom but figured out how to escape by showing the use of the watch to Sue and Sue acted out a redemption for her. These story lines always get tangled somehow so maybe there is no way they can become untangled.


Wish we knew more about Visitor #2...someone suggested Visitor #2 was actually Sue, because Sue seems more like Nikki when she talks to her and this is actually some kind of confrontation between both aspects of her personality. Which is an interesting idea but I won't know how I feel about it until I watch the movie again. Perhaps it's nothing more than a replay of the Dern/Zabriskie scene earlier filtered through the Sue facet, but there really did seem to be a lot more Nikki than Sue in Dern's performance there.


I hadn't read that far when I wrote the above. It seems to be a more clear way of what I was trying to say. But like LH, the story always stays non-linear.


Arguably more so than any other Lynch film. Every possible answer opens up a thousand more questions and every other accompanying theory has to be second, third, and tenth guessed. Why this is a turn-off for some, I'll never understand. I love it.

Ryan
applesnoranges
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Re: Suicide?

Postby applesnoranges » Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:23 pm

TheMysteryMan wrote:I didn't think of it that way originally...if it was, it wouldn' seem to be a conscious attempt. As down-trodden as she appears in that scene, though, I think she's really just trying to fix a downward spiral. And seeks the services of the worst guy for the job, to say the least.

Yeah, that's how it seems to me. But it is because of some weakness to begin with that she does that. She herself says it is crazy but she decides to take the easy way out anyway.
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Re: RANDOM THOUGHTS III -- You have to be wearing the watch

Postby applesnoranges » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:04 pm

TheMysteryMan wrote:Good point...I didn't factor the parallels between Nikki and Gruszka's incomprehension when someone speaks to them in Polish. Could be part of an interpretive dream on Nikki's part or another facet of Gruszka's story being recreated. But again, the one question remains--if it's Gruszka, why can't she understand the Phantom?

That's the reason it seems to me to be coming from Nikki; Nikki would not be able to dream the whole conversation in Polish, though Piotrek said that she understands more than she lets on. So Nikki may know a few words, enough to dream the couple of short greetings at the beginning, but after that her dream of Polish characters would have to continue in English.
She should know Polish. So it would seem to imply this is another manifestation of the original abused Gruszka and perhaps the Lost Girl is a separate entity as well, so that Gruszka has her own Nikki/Sue fractured identity in "reality" and then the Lost Girl outside of that. Which could be explainable in the sense that this is 47 and there's a real person it is based on and someone interpreting it to recreate the story in a film, and what we're seeing is a glimpse of how this 47 cursed played itself out before. My continued objection to this generalization is that there is no indication at all that anything which happens in Poland is from a movie or that the people involved are actors. So at best, it would just seem to be an incident that perhaps inspired the 47 film.

But it is somehow logical that the same thing would have happened in the old Polish film (if that is true and not a lie by Kingsley). So, we have the scene of Maj. beating Gruszka and in that scene there is a scratching sound, as if it is a clip from the old unfinished movie. And it looks filmed in an older style, and the decor of the room is older. But then, we return to this couple a few more times and there is not the old movie scratching sound. Well, again, this is explainable as a dream and Nikki would be the important character who heard the story of this older film. I don't know where this connects though.
It is as if this is the first time Nikki and Lost Girl have become aware of each other. Yet, here is this MTTH scene which seems to have something to do with Nikki.

I guess this would suggest that there is some process Nikki goes through in dying in the movie that completes her journey and allows her to meet the Lost Girl.

That's what is implied. Another point I don't know what to make of is how these scenes relate to the black and white segment of LG telling the Dern character how to use the watch and the silk. I had been thinking that it was only through the movie Nikki is making that LG could try to talk to her, by talking to her character, Sue. Because it is that character who tries to burn the hole in the silk. But if I ask myself which personality Dern is portraying in the black white scene, it seems more like Nikki than Sue. So, summing this up, there are three scenes of contact between a character who seems to be Nikki and Lost Girl: The MTTH scene, the black and white scene, and the view after the death scene. Just to keep track of them for now.
Some believe she really dies and the movie set isn't actually there, but the confused reactions from Kingsley and the people on the set when she walks away from them without a word for me implies that it's definitely taking place within a movie. I suppose that demonstrates the tenuous relationship between where reality stops and becomes a film, as everything Sue goes through at Hollywood & Vine appears real. So I could be totally wrong about the Polish scenes not actually happening in 47.

I've seen it suggested that the death scene is from the life of a real person who after she dies sees her life as having been a movie of the life of Sue Blue performed by Nikki. What seems to contradict that strongly is the scene just before that with the snapping fingers. Nikki seems to be becoming conscious of who she really is within Sue and so Sue is no longer afraid of death because she can control what happens because it is a movie. So she deliberately hands the screwdriver to the Ormand character. But then, getting back to the first point, after Sue dies, Nikki herself also seems to be dead and able to control what happens. (E.g. during the finger snapping scene, the LB, which was upside down from her point of view when talking to Mr. K., is now right up so she can read it, then after the death scene, when she hugs Kingsley, the LB is gone ... then when she reaches into the drawer, there it is back again. Only someone dreaming in some way can control what happens like this. It's as if she wakes from a dream within a dream (or hypnotic trance) for the finger snapping, but ultimately is still dreaming. What both of those have in common is that it is Nikki who becomes conscious.
I would say separate from the Lost Girl, based on what I was saying above about how she might be different from these Nikki/Sue type manifestatios of her character. Perhaps the Lost Girl is some hybrid of both and that's why she's able to see into the events of Poland as well as what happens with OHIBT, and that for Nikki to see and understand them as well, she has to be wearing the watch and looking through the burning silk. Any ideas why she appears to Nikki superimposed over the record?

Only that the record seems to be the first level on which the story is told here (then on the record is is a radio show, then that is a black and white movie, etc.). So it seems that the two are contacting directly soul to soul in the deepest level of the story. How that relates to the rest I don't know.
Wish we knew more about Visitor #2...someone suggested Visitor #2 was actually Sue, because Sue seems more like Nikki when she talks to her and this is actually some kind of confrontation between both aspects of her personality.

That was my first thought the first time, when I couldn't tell one character from another: That V2 was the real Sue Blue talking to the character Sue Blue played by Nikki and giving her some inside information on how to proceed.
Perhaps it's nothing more than a replay of the Dern/Zabriskie scene earlier filtered through the Sue facet, but there really did seem to be a lot more Nikki than Sue in Dern's performance there.

Yes, but both seem to have "southern" accents here, V2's much more pronounced. It is the least "southern" of Dern's accents other than Nikki's.
Arguably more so than any other Lynch film. Every possible answer opens up a thousand more questions and every other accompanying theory has to be second, third, and tenth guessed. Why this is a turn-off for some, I'll never understand. I love it.

Yes, that's what I was hoping to find. But someone I talked to quite a bit about MD eventually trailed off and stopped talking about IE, apparently for this very reason.
TheMysteryMan
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Watch this

Postby TheMysteryMan » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:36 am

That's the reason it seems to me to be coming from Nikki; Nikki would not be able to dream the whole conversation in Polish, though Piotrek said that she understands more than she lets on. So Nikki may know a few words, enough to dream the couple of short greetings at the beginning, but after that her dream of Polish characters would have to continue in English."


On the other hand, though, I don't see why she would have to be subject to rules of reality in a dream. You or I could have a dream where someone was speaking Polish and we would completely understand that it was Polish as well as what those words meant, because in dream logic, you can convince yourself of the order of anything. The person probably wouldn't actually be speaking Polish, but we would believe it as such and if were so inclined, we could understand it. I've heard that you can't truly read anything in a dream but I've seen pages before and known what they said, even if perhaps technically they weren't really words. I know that this paragraph is probably beginning to seem Polish with its abject reasoning, but the condensed version is that anything could happen in a dream and I wouldn't expect someone to be limited by language barriers that would stop them in real life. There's definitely more to be mined from Piotrek's remark about Nikki's grasp of Polish, though, undoubtedly.


But it is somehow logical that the same thing would have happened in the old Polish film (if that is true and not a lie by Kingsley). So, we have the scene of Maj. beating Gruszka and in that scene there is a scratching sound, as if it is a clip from the old unfinished movie. And it looks filmed in an older style, and the decor of the room is older. But then, we return to this couple a few more times and there is not the old movie scratching sound. Well, again, this is explainable as a dream and Nikki would be the important character who heard the story of this older film. I don't know where this connects though.


I forgot about the scratching sound so I don't remember quite how that played out. If it's like you say, that could be an indication of an actual scene from 47. I wonder about the significance of all the various media involved in the film"”AxxonN being the longest running radio show, the spinning record (it seems like the show plays on the record, but why do we end up seeing what happens?), OHIBT as a movie. And Smithy joins the circus. The Rabbits scenes play out as a sitcom with the loud canned laughter and applause. All of these modes of entertainment suggest another era, as even OHIBT doesn't seem very modern (the title itself is rather quaint).


That's what is implied. Another point I don't know what to make of is how these scenes relate to the black and white segment of LG telling the Dern character how to use the watch and the silk. I had been thinking that it was only through the movie Nikki is making that LG could try to talk to her, by talking to her character, Sue. Because it is that character who tries to burn the hole in the silk. But if I ask myself which personality Dern is portraying in the black white scene, it seems more like Nikki than Sue. So, summing this up, there are three scenes of contact between a character who seems to be Nikki and Lost Girl: The MTTH scene, the black and white scene, and the view after the death scene. Just to keep track of them for now.


That's difficult to say, re: Nikki or Sue in the black/white scene. That's the point when Dern plunges off the identity cliff. The first couple times I saw it, I assumed she was actually aware of the identity slide when she first walked through the AxxonN door and saw herself rehearsing, until I realized she was calling Devon "Billy"when he appeared at the window. That implies she is Sue and I wonder if there's a permanence of that character once she goes through AxxonN that isn't challenged until another AxxonN door is entered much later. Although not specifically seen, she is clearly watching herself as a prostitute across the street right before she is stabbed. Maybe, like before, that shifts her from Sue back to Nikki to die in front of the camera and take what she has learned/experienced up to room 47 to confront the Phantom.


I've seen it suggested that the death scene is from the life of a real person who after she dies sees her life as having been a movie of the life of Sue Blue performed by Nikki. What seems to contradict that strongly is the scene just before that with the snapping fingers. Nikki seems to be becoming conscious of who she really is within Sue and so Sue is no longer afraid of death because she can control what happens because it is a movie. So she deliberately hands the screwdriver to the Ormand character.


Did she hand it to her deliberately? I thought it seemed like it just got snatched from her but it does the raise the question about why Ormand as the would-be assassin who knows she is supposed to kill with a screwdriver doesn't actually carry one with herwhat's the significance when she's telling the policeman about the Phantom and she pulls up her shirt to show she has a screwdriver plunged into her side? There would seem to be a way to use one scene to explain the other. It is interesting that when she is stabbed, Penderecki's "Jacob's Dream"is playing on the soundtrack. Maybe because it's such a horrifying piece of music, but maybe there's further significance to the choice (besides Kubrick's use of it in The Shining).

Also interesting that she says something like, "Watch this move" when she starts snapping. Watch this/you have to be wearing the watch.

But then, getting back to the first point, after Sue dies, Nikki herself also seems to be dead and able to control what happens. (E.g. during the finger snapping scene, the LB, which was upside down from her point of view when talking to Mr. K., is now right up so she can read it, then after the death scene, when she hugs Kingsley, the LB is gone ... then when she reaches into the drawer, there it is back again. Only someone dreaming in some way can control what happens like this. It's as if she wakes from a dream within a dream (or hypnotic trance) for the finger snapping, but ultimately is still dreaming. What both of those have in common is that it is Nikki who becomes conscious.


I only really started paying attention to the LB thing on the last viewing. I noticed it wasn't there after her death scene and that it appeared when she reached for the gun, but not that the letters ever changed direction. What's the LB supposed to mean? Some say "Light Bulb"since Crimp has one in his mouth when he emerges from the neighbor's house and Sue grabs the screwdriver. I like that as a metaphor that he is swallowing the light, although it was a random prop selection to hear Lynch tell it. (But conversely, someone COULD have said, "If you put this in your mouth, it will be significant.") So is the LB readable now as a signal to her that she has to kill the man she saw earlier with the Light Bulb, because she won't remember to otherwise?



Only that the record seems to be the first level on which the story is told here (then on the record is is a radio show, then that is a black and white movie, etc.). So it seems that the two are contacting directly soul to soul in the deepest level of the story. How that relates to the rest I don't know.


That crossing over of mediums mentioned aboveradio/record/black and white film/TV/film in color. It seems to suggest stories within stories that are ultimately all connected, since the radio show is AxxonN"”the longest running radio show in the Baltic region--and AxxonN is the gateway for the identity fracture where the story will now play through another medium"”this time, seemingly a different character as Nikki becomes Sue. A show that is still running today and not just in the Baltic, I guess.


Yes, that's what I was hoping to find. But someone I talked to quite a bit about MD eventually trailed off and stopped talking about IE, apparently for this very reason.


MD is more neatly packaged by comparison. Still plenty of abstractions but you can piece together an arc to explain most of it with a little thought. With IE, you need a lot of thought just for an initial arc that can't even begin to explain everything, and subsequent observations constantly undermine your original groundwork. But I think if you're willing to put in the time, you can construct a good part of the puzzle. Years ago I didn't think Fire Walk with Me could really be explained and I've read some good ideas for that. But it's nice that as soon as you're somewhat satisfied with analyzing one work, here's another to challenge you all over again. Like I said before, I can't even begin to imagine what the next one will be like. I can't wait, though of course I don't have a choice. The agony will begin all over againI'll hear that he's definitely doing something, it'll take awhile to finish, then I'll have to figure out where I might be able to actually see it, then I'll see it and the wait will immediately begin for the DVDI'm amazed at how much progress people made on the IE board after one viewing. The movie seemed 5 hours long to me the first time (not in a bad wayso much insanity happened that "the telling of time"was impossible).
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Postby MichaelPW » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:30 pm

TheMysteryMan wrote:There's definitely more to be mined from Piotrek's remark about Nikki's grasp of Polish, though, undoubtedly.


If it is Piotrek. But maybe we have Mr. Zydowic here, because Mr. and Mrs. Zydowic are standing beside him. Maybe Mr. Zydowic is the producer of 4 7.

Did she hand it to her deliberately?


When one looks to it frame by frame. But it also could be that we have this hand move by Nikki, because she is relaxed with it.
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Re: Watch this

Postby applesnoranges » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:43 am

TheMysteryMan wrote:
On the other hand, though, I don't see why she would have to be subject to rules of reality in a dream. You or I could have a dream where someone was speaking Polish and we would completely understand that it was Polish as well as what those words meant, because in dream logic, you can convince yourself of the order of anything.

While that seems true, it would apply more to a scene in which someone did speak Polish, no? I was looking for a meaning to the idea of a Gruszka character not knowing Polish, but speaking English with a Polish accent. So for me Nikki dreaming it would explain that.
I forgot about the scratching sound so I don't remember quite how that played out. If it's like you say, that could be an indication of an actual scene from 47.

It looks that way. I think the first scene is the beating in the apartment and Piotrek leaving the other apartment. But I'm trying to guess why the scratching sound is not in the similar scenes, such as the meeting on the street. I can see that if it means they are scenes from 4 7, that it would seem stupid to have that scratching scene in all of them, as if David Lynch were trying to force a card on us or something. But in DL, everything seems to link to something, so I'm guessing for now that these scenes come from someone's dream. The beating in the apartment repeats with Lucas and Dern, and Nikki knows about OHIBT and has heard about 4 7, so it could be her. If LG spoke to Sue in the b/w record player scene, then Sue knows her face too. I can't straighten out the Nikki/Sue identities so my first guess is I am not supposed to. As in one of the other threads ("Is there a murder in your film?") I suggested that much of the story may concern a struggle between Nikki's version of the movie and that of Visitor #1.
I wonder about the significance of all the various media involved in the film"”AxxonN being the longest running radio show, the spinning record (it seems like the show plays on the record, but why do we end up seeing what happens?), OHIBT as a movie.

Up until now I've only seen that as a way of showing that the story continued through history through various media, often one within another, such as a radio show that is played on a record player or a 1930s color film within a modern digital cinema. I haven't made more connections yet.
And Smithy joins the circus.

I have been becoming more and more convinced that the character of Smithy is played by Karolina Gruszka. She comes home to Smithy's house and to Smithy's son. That's enough for me because I see absolutely no reason to think that Smithy is played by anyone else. Someone said something on imdb which sparked this idea recently. Before that I had thought that "Smithy" was not a particular character but a sort of place holder for any of Lucas' characters. But now I think that is one of David Lynch's tricks to play on men who think anyone named Smithy must be a man ... and I fell for it. :)
The Rabbits scenes play out as a sitcom with the loud canned laughter and applause. All of these modes of entertainment suggest another era, as even OHIBT doesn't seem very modern (the title itself is rather quaint).

Maybe the medium is the message but the medium comes first. David Lynch movies are full of funky old stuff from the 40s and 50s. I'm very close to the same age as him and I remember all that hardware and the first TV shows with the intensity of a child's attention. I think that is where it comes from first; it is stuff which has power for him. What use it serves in the story I'm not sure yet, though the comments Dern makes in the monolog which show impossible misunderstandings of time must have something to do with it. Just before the inlandempirecinema.com board dropped off the edge, matildak laid out a pretty coherent version of all the time periods. I don't care for his interpretation because it is of a hopelessly miserable story of death and doom, but the fact that those things can be strung together indicates that there is some meaning to them.
That's difficult to say, re: Nikki or Sue in the black/white scene. That's the point when Dern plunges off the identity cliff. The first couple times I saw it, I assumed she was actually aware of the identity slide when she first walked through the AxxonN door and saw herself rehearsing, until I realized she was calling Devon "Billy"when he appeared at the window. That implies she is Sue and I wonder if there's a permanence of that character once she goes through AxxonN that isn't challenged until another AxxonN door is entered much later.

OK. Yes, it is more logical that the Gruszka character would be talking to Sue; it was Sue who received Visitor #2, but that's a little hard to see too. V2 has some sort of Southern accent and the Dern character has a barely discernible trace of one. So my first thought the first few times through was that V2 was the real Sue Blue informing Nikki about her character. But I don't know now.
Although not specifically seen, she is clearly watching herself as a prostitute across the street right before she is stabbed. Maybe, like before, that shifts her from Sue back to Nikki to die in front of the camera and take what she has learned/experienced up to room 47 to confront the Phantom.

A mystery that still seems up for grabs is why there are two of her on the street. Right before that happens, Gruszka is seen out on the street asking the same two girls to tell her if they've known her before. That seems related but I don't see it yet. But I'm still considering that there is a struggle between Visitor #1 and Nikki and it is as if we see both versions of Sue there. The frightened one leaves and the one played by the newly aware Nikki who has awakened from the trance V1 put her in takes over.
So she deliberately hands the screwdriver to the Ormand character.

Did she hand it to her deliberately? I thought it seemed like it just got snatched from her but it does the raise the question about why Ormand as the would-be assassin who knows she is supposed to kill with a screwdriver doesn't actually carry one with herwhat's the significance when she's telling the policeman about the Phantom and she pulls up her shirt to show she has a screwdriver plunged into her side?

I don't know about what she does in the Police station but I agree with MichalPW on this one"”that she hands her the screwdriver. MPW leaves room for interpretation there but I think it is just a wonderful thing to happen. It means that they are making a movie.
There would seem to be a way to use one scene to explain the other. It is interesting that when she is stabbed, Penderecki's "Jacob's Dream"is playing on the soundtrack. Maybe because it's such a horrifying piece of music, but maybe there's further significance to the choice (besides Kubrick's use of it in The Shining).

What happened in the Police station is the first blatantly non-sequitur scene in the movie. Before that we are linking one idea to another somehow (e.g. Nikki meeting the parents). Then suddenly there is this scene which seems to have nothing to do with the movie at all, with two new characters. Much later we learn that Ormand plays Billy's wife, and in that encounter scene we see a flashback to that police station scene. And we also see a flash of the phantom hypnotizing which relates to that scene as well. It is as if, as in TP, fear and anger (between the two women) let the phantom in. So the first time we see it, somehow it seems that the phantom put that scene in the movie. Also, Sue's crazy behavior in the Sides' home is completely inexplicable except if she is deliberately trying to cause trouble. Somehow all this seems caused by the phantom. I don't know where else to take it beyond that.
I only really started paying attention to the LB thing on the last viewing. I noticed it wasn't there after her death scene and that it appeared when she reached for the gun, but not that the letters ever changed direction.

The do. When talking to Mr. K. they are upside down from her direction, indicating that they were placed there by someone else for that person's benefit, not hers. When she raises the screwdriver, they are facing her direction. "Watch this move!"
What's the LB supposed to mean?

People have gone over this long enough getting nowhere to convince me that it doesn't mean anything. There is an LB thread on any IE board with dozens of guesses and each one colors it a certain way. Little Boy, Lord Buddha, Light Bulb, etc. I think the essential thing is what it does, not what it stands for.
So is the LB readable now as a signal to her that she has to kill the man she saw earlier with the Light Bulb, because she won't remember to otherwise?

Hmm, a thought. I at first thought that it was a sort of Memento type reminder because Nikki who has no LB in the theater sees Sue reach into the drawer and so it winds up on her hand again to remind her. But equally powerful is Little Boy, just because it is such a strange thing for Billy to say in the veranda scene. And Sue repeats it kind of astonished: Little boy? As if she's wondered why he said such a thing. Normally someone would say, "I've known her almost all my life." or, "I've known her since we were both kids." Little Boy is a very strange thing to say. But if, as you suggested above, this is the phantom's way into the movie, that sort of fits. (It's another thing that ties Billy and the phantom.)
That crossing over of mediums mentioned aboveradio/record/black and white film/TV/film in color. It seems to suggest stories within stories that are ultimately all connected, since the radio show is AxxonN"”the longest running radio show

I guess the phantom has been busy messing up people's stories for a long time.
The movie seemed 5 hours long to me the first time (not in a bad wayso much insanity happened that "the telling of time"was impossible).

Even David Lynch admitted that maybe some people would need a bathroom visit during all that so he broke down and added chapter stops.
:)
applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:49 am

MichaelPW wrote:If it is Piotrek. But maybe we have Mr. Zydowic here, because Mr. and Mrs. Zydowic are standing beside him. Maybe Mr. Zydowic is the producer of 4 7.

I don't follow the connection. Marek Zydowicz is a real person, the producer in Poland and also the actor who plays Gordy. Piotrek in the credits is listed as Piotrek Król. That is who talks to Devon upstairs because Nikki calls him Piotrek. Lucas plays the same character when introducing Nikki to the parents. He is Piotrek Król and they are in the credits as Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz. Where does 4 7 come into the picture here?
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Postby MichaelPW » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:50 am

applesnoranges wrote:Marek Zydowicz is a real person, the producer in Poland and also the actor who plays Gordy.


Yes, I know that. So we could ask who are the Zydowiczs within IE? That Marek Zydowicz is the producer in Poland in reality could give us the hint that the Zydowiczs within IE are the parents of the producer of the European 4 7.

Piotrek in the credits is listed as Piotrek Król.


Yes, that`s true. At least for the first time we see him in IE I guess.

That is who talks to Devon upstairs because Nikki calls him Piotrek.


I don`t know exactly when she calls him so - but I will put my attention to that next time.

Lucas plays the same character when introducing Nikki to the parents. He is Piotrek Król and they are in the credits as Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz.


So we have Piotrek Król, Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz and Nikki Grace here. Ok, we know that nowadays there are a lot of possibilities with names, but I don`t think that David Lynch uses this. So why don`t we have here Piotrek Król, Mr. and Mrs. Król and Nikki Król here, for example? Or Piotrek Zydowicz, Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz and Nikki Zydowicz? Or Piotrek Król, Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz and Nikki Król? Or Piotrek Grace, Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz and Nikki Grace?

Ok, it seems to be some kind of business meeting with private relations between Piotrek Król and Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz.

I really wonder why Piotrek Król thinks that Nikki Grace knows Polish. The "parents" seem to be quite sceptical, especially Mrs. Zydowics who looks like the younger character behind the Gruszka character on the street. Could she already be ninety years old like the niece? Maybe she has something to do with the murders connected to 4 7.

It seems to be a quite short scene with a big meaning. And maybe there is a connection to the following longer police station scene. I like both very much. First one looks like something schematic, but maybe it isn`t schematic. Reminds me on the parents of the one who was in jail in LH. They really didn`t look like parents of him for me. Maybe in IE they shall look like parents, but aren`t the parents of someone other in that scene.
applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:07 pm

MichaelPW wrote:
That is who talks to Devon upstairs because Nikki calls him Piotrek.

I don`t know exactly when she calls him so - but I will put my attention to that next time.

She comes home and calls, "Piotrek?" Then the headwaiter answers her.
So we have Piotrek Król, Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz and Nikki Grace here. Ok, we know that nowadays there are a lot of possibilities with names, but I don`t think that David Lynch uses this. So why don`t we have here Piotrek Król, Mr. and Mrs. Król and Nikki Król here, for example? Or Piotrek Zydowicz, Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz and Nikki Zydowicz? Or Piotrek Król, Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz and Nikki Król? Or Piotrek Grace, Mr. and Mrs. Zydowicz and Nikki Grace?

That would "make sense" but would be disappointing, wouldn't it? Why waste precious screen time on making everyone's names match?
I really wonder why Piotrek Król thinks that Nikki Grace knows Polish.

She is his fiancee. He knows her. One of the parents says, "Half." She may be half Polish from parents who did not speak Polish at home but she learned a little bit. Or he may have taught her a little.
The "parents" seem to be quite sceptical, especially Mrs. Zydowics who looks like the younger character behind the Gruszka character on the street. Could she already be ninety years old like the niece? Maybe she has something to do with the murders connected to 4 7.

You mentioned this similarity before but I didn't notice it when I watched. btw, the French subtitle says the equivalent of "19 year old niece." But I don't trust the French subtitles.
Maybe in IE they shall look like parents, but aren`t the parents of someone other in that scene.

We just aren't told. Could be that Piotrek Lucas is introducing Laura Dern to the parents of Marek Zydowicz, but that doesn't mean anything.
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:13 pm

applesnoranges wrote:She comes home and calls, "Piotrek?"


I will look on it next time. Do you really see hints that she "comes home"? Until now I viewed it as that she wasn`t there for only a short time (maybe in another room for a short while).

That would "make sense" but would be disappointing, wouldn't it?


Ok, nothing "makes" sense. Sense is either there or not. ( :) ) I don`t write "why?", because I would like it so. Like it how it is.

Why waste precious screen time on making everyone's names match?


Perhaps if we should believe that those are parents there would be in the credits Mr. and Mrs. Król. But maybe we shall believe - if we take a look to the credits - that those aren`t parents.

One of the parents says, "Half."


Interesting. I can`t remember this. Will pay attention. The word "half" reminds me now primarily on the word "halfborn".

She may be half Polish from parents who did not speak Polish at home but she learned a little bit. Or he may have taught her a little.


She appears that she doesn`t know a single word in Polish.

btw, the French subtitle says the equivalent of "19 year old niece."


I think that the German subtitles say "neunzigjährige Nichte".

Could be that Piotrek Lucas is introducing Laura Dern to the parents of Marek Zydowicz, but that doesn't mean anything.


:) But I assume that the parents of Marek Zydowicz are named Zydowics and not "Cybulski".

The point of the scene seems to be: Nikki doesn`t understand Polish and the three others doesn`t understand that at all.

Mr. Zydowicz says to Piotrek: "You have to teach her a little bit." Again, schematic reasons lay on hands: "Politics...ego". But I think there`s more. It seems somehow essential that Nikki must know Polish (a little bit).

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