RANDOM THOUGHTS V -- Natassja Kinski in MTTH

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TheMysteryMan
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RANDOM THOUGHTS V -- Natassja Kinski in MTTH

Postby TheMysteryMan » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:43 am

The Natassja Kinski scene in MTTH. Some are assuming she is Nikki/Sue's sister but I viewed her as more of a friend than a relative. (Or she could be Nikki's friend and Sue's sister, but in the scene, she seems to be talking to Nikki if I remember correctly.) The consensus is that the man she met at the bar, Billy, was actually the Phantom and he hypnotized her. While I did make the bar/Phantom connection, I didn't actually assign it to Billy/Phantom. Especially since she says he was wearing a wedding ring, and the real Billy (or character Billy, I should say) would have one. What strikes me most about the scene is when she talks about how when they get to the hotel room, she doesn't recognize it, which is why some have taken that to mean she is hypnotized. This could be. But I haven't seen anyone draw the parallel between her description of what happened to her and the very first scene of INLAND EMPIRE, where the Polish prostitute is confused about her surroundings. I don't know what it signifies, but it seems important that something like that would happen twice. If it's Nikki in the scene, we could assume this is before her total immersion/transformation/whatever you call AxxonN and it's a dark hint that a character from her screenplay might actually exist in her own lifeher role is beginning to bleed into her life.


Ryan
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applesnoranges
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Re: RANDOM THOUGHTS V -- Natassja Kinski in MTTH

Postby applesnoranges » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:30 pm

TMM: As you can see, this board has been kind of dead lately and last few weeks it's just been me and MichaelPW, whose region 2 version of IE doesn't include MTTH etc. I wrote out the text of buying a watch; maybe you could write out this one.

I haven't seen much discussion of this but my reaction was that it was Nikki and a friend. They are in some somewhat luxurious location and the friend seems to come from the same social group as Nikki; she is someone like Nikki. She seems nothing like the alcoholic sister that the confessing woman talks about if that is what is meant.

But when she said, "He said his name is Billy", then Nikki becomes very serious and awe stricken as she listens to the story, sort of worried. It's as if she's already heard about the curse on the film she is making and recognizes what the friend is saying as a description of the opening scene in the hotel room "” except that this woman got away and survived OK, only she is left with a strange sense that something really weird has happened.

But in several places there is a relationship shown between Billy and the Phantom. After he sells LG the watch there is a shot of his face which is identical to one of Devon's as Billy on the set in the dark when Nikki is getting confused and frightened. Also, Nikki talking on the phone to Devon and [a Majchrzak character] at the same time.
What strikes me most about the scene is when she talks about how when they get to the hotel room, she doesn't recognize it, which is why some have taken that to mean she is hypnotized. This could be. But I haven't seen anyone draw the parallel between her description of what happened to her and the very first scene of INLAND EMPIRE, where the Polish prostitute is confused about her surroundings. I don't know what it signifies, but it seems important that something like that would happen twice. If it's Nikki in the scene, we could assume this is before her total immersion/transformation/whatever you call AxxonN and it's a dark hint that a character from her screenplay might actually exist in her own lifeher role is beginning to bleed into her life.

I agree that it is certainly a description of the opening scene and also another version of the same story told by the Ormand character about being hypnotized. People don't seem to have been talking about these MTTH scenes much but, as in this one, they are definitely parts of the same story.
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:05 pm

TheMysteryMan wrote:But I haven't seen anyone draw the parallel between her description of what happened to her and the very first scene of INLAND EMPIRE, where the Polish prostitute is confused about her surroundings.


I also thought for a long time that it is a prostitute in the beginning of the movie. But in the more recently time I think about that she could be no prostitute. Maybe the male character hypnotized her in the bar and so can do whatever he wants with her. Telling her that she is a prostitue, for example. We see her sitting naked as Lost Girl in room 205.
applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:59 pm

It could be somewhere between. There is a large business in eastern Europe of kidnapping women and forcing them into prostitution. This could be one of those women, frightened but having no way to escape. There is a documentary about this which is really shocking. If the woman's husband had not been so dedicated to freeing her and taken such risks in doing so, she would never have been found.

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=161
TheMysteryMan
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MTTH

Postby TheMysteryMan » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:31 am

TMM: As you can see, this board has been kind of dead lately and last few weeks it's just been me and MichaelPW, whose region 2 version of IE doesn't include MTTH etc. I wrote out the text of buying a watch; maybe you could write out this one."

Nikki: Where you been?

Nikki's Friend: I had the most incredible experience. It all started at Al'sI was sitting at the bar; you know at the back, where the bathrooms are?

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

NF: And there was this guyhe turned around and looked at me andI just lit up inside, you know? He asked me if I wanted a beer and I saidI said, "˜Yeah, okay, thank you.' And, um, I noticed he washe had a ring. He was married butI didn't care. And thenhe said he was just passing throughand, um, he asked me my name and I told him. And he said his name was Billy. Andhe said, "Nice to meet you,"and I said, "Nice to meet you, Billy."And Pete was in the back serving a beer to Sandra and uhI don't know, it was likehe suddenly, like, he said, um, "I think I've met you before."And I'm like, not falling for that line, you know? But now I said, "I think I've met you before."And I don'tI thought I met him before but I don't even remember where. And then he suddenly he said, likeI wanted him so bad, I don't know, I was justand I felt he felt the same thing, you know? And then he said, "I want you."And II said, "Where do you want to go?"And he said he was staying at the hotel. And I said, "At the Harriston?"and he said yeah. And so we werewe just left. And Pete waslooking at me like[sighs]and Sandra was eyeballing this man I was leaving with. And then we got to the hotel and I was kind of hanging backin the dark while he was getting his key. Everything wasit was differentwe went through the hallway and I didn't know where I was. Think they must have changed the décor or something. Everything was different, I didn't recognize any of it. I didn't know where I was. It was like I was dreaming.

Cut to: The Rabbit walks through a door in a line of hotel room doors and then we see him on the stairs. He walks through another door.

You know, this just shows how amazing Lynch is and the performances are, because Kinski reads like a total Valley Girl above even though she doesn't sound anything like it. And this scene is actually very tense and ominous thanks to the movie's typically great sound design. The growing fear in Nikki's face sells the horror of the scene.


But when she said, "He said his name is Billy", then Nikki becomes very serious and awe stricken as she listens to the story, sort of worried. It's as if she's already heard about the curse on the film she is making and recognizes what the friend is saying as a description of the opening scene in the hotel room "” except that this woman got away and survived OK, only she is left with a strange sense that something really weird has happened."


Yeah, I would say you're right about the placement of that sceneit seems to come after Kingsley admits the colorful history of 47. And given the flow of scenes after that, I guess it doesn't really fit in tonally. Of course, in a movie like this, he could have put it in much later where it did fit because chronological order is the last concern of the film. But by that point, it's Sue's story rather than Nikki's. Didn't notice the other times I watched the scene, but it's interesting how she says, "And then he suddenly said, like"and she never says what it was, but suddenly she wants him. So that does seem to imply the Phantom more than I originally thought.


But in several places there is a relationship shown between Billy and the Phantom. After he sells LG the watch there is a shot of his face which is identical to one of Devon's as Billy on the set in the dark when Nikki is getting confused and frightened. Also, Nikki talking on the phone to Devon and [a Majchrzak character] at the same time.


I didn't notice the parallel of the looks (another thing to look for in my fourth viewing), but I was going to ask what you thought of the scene where she's talking to Devon and the Phantom's voice plays over it (in subtitled Polish). Where would THAT have come in the movie? There doesn't seem like a good place for it either, like the Kinski scene, even though it seems very significant and it's a great moment. I wonder if that scene is some kind of Phantom hypnosis.
TheMysteryMan
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re

Postby TheMysteryMan » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:39 am

I also thought for a long time that it is a prostitute in the beginning of the movie. But in the more recently time I think about that she could be no prostitute. Maybe the male character hypnotized her in the bar and so can do whatever he wants with her. Telling her that she is a prostitue, for example. We see her sitting naked as Lost Girl in room 205.


That's a very good pointI assumed she was a prostitute but you could potentially read it a different way. Now that I think about it, just because he seemed to be feeding her the lines didn't mean she was in the business of saying them.

It could be somewhere between. There is a large business in eastern Europe of kidnapping women and forcing them into prostitution. This could be one of those women, frightened but having no way to escape. There is a documentary about this which is really shocking. If the woman's husband had not been so dedicated to freeing her and taken such risks in doing so, she would never have been found.


According to Wikipedia, someone did mention some kind of woman smuggling operation as a big facet of the plot. I didn't see where they were coming from with that. Maybe they assumed because it seemed like some of the prostitutes were in Poland as well as the USA that they were illegally transported. They don't sound foreign in America although one of them does accept Euros in a MTTH extra scene (where her fellow "employees"chew her out for it).
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:42 pm

TheMysteryMan wrote:Nikki: Where you been?

Nikki's Friend: I had the most incredible experience. It all started at Al'sI was sitting at the bar; you know at the back, where the bathrooms are?

Nikki: Mm-hmm.

NF: And there was this guyhe turned around and looked at me andI just lit up inside, you know? He asked me if I wanted a beer and I saidI said, "˜Yeah, okay, thank you.' And, um, I noticed he washe had a ring. He was married butI didn't care. And thenhe said he was just passing throughand, um, he asked me my name and I told him. And he said his name was Billy. Andhe said, "Nice to meet you,"and I said, "Nice to meet you, Billy."And Pete was in the back serving a beer to Sandra and uhI don't know, it was likehe suddenly, like, he said, um, "I think I've met you before."And I'm like, not falling for that line, you know? But now I said, "I think I've met you before."And I don'tI thought I met him before but I don't even remember where. And then he suddenly he said, likeI wanted him so bad, I don't know, I was justand I felt he felt the same thing, you know? And then he said, "I want you."And II said, "Where do you want to go?"And he said he was staying at the hotel. And I said, "At the Harriston?"and he said yeah. And so we werewe just left. And Pete waslooking at me like[sighs]and Sandra was eyeballing this man I was leaving with. And then we got to the hotel and I was kind of hanging backin the dark while he was getting his key. Everything wasit was differentwe went through the hallway and I didn't know where I was. Think they must have changed the décor or something. Everything was different, I didn't recognize any of it. I didn't know where I was. It was like I was dreaming.

Cut to: The Rabbit walks through a door in a line of hotel room doors and then we see him on the stairs. He walks through another door.


Thank you for writing this down! Very interesting! I have to see it - ordered the American version now.
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:53 pm

TheMysteryMan wrote:That's a very good pointI assumed she was a prostitute but you could potentially read it a different way. Now that I think about it, just because he seemed to be feeding her the lines didn't mean she was in the business of saying them.


Yes, I watched IE again and now I really believe that she is hypnotized. She and LG do not know where they are and have fear. The phantom seem to have hypnotized them (if they aren`t the same person).

On the other side we have prostitutes on the street. And prostitutes in TP. And the business of porn movies in LH. And prostitutes in Queen Kelly.
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:10 am

applesnoranges wrote:http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=161


Thank you for that link. Have watched it now. It seems to be a real global problem.
12rainbow
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Postby 12rainbow » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:23 pm

[Hi, first post here. Is it okay to just jump right in? I don't mean to be rude.]

Probably the most important detail I got out of MTTH, besides the watches of course, is this connection between Billy and The Phantom mentioned by applesnoranges.

It's almost as if Billy (Devon) was his "way in(to)" Nikki/Sue. Her lust-love for him makes her extremely vulnerable to The Phantom. "Strange what love does." Obsessive love can feel like a spell.

Pimp, lover, husband, father, demon; any of these figures can make a woman lost her identity. The Lost Girl's son, and Sue's child, are a positive charges to the sense of self.
applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:23 am

12rainbow: Interesting! That has to be true "” a link for the phantom right in front of me that I didn't notice and which helps complete the picture.

So, in MTTH we have him in 2 segments. One the scene you mention, with Kinsky as Nikki's friend "” that links the phantom to Billy "” and the other the one with Nikki lying on the floor talking to Devon and phantom at the same time.

So, the phantom wanted to get into the movie and David Lynch was aware of it, so he portrayed him wanting to get in. But that phantom also wanted into other movies in the past, and before that, radio shows, spoken word stories, etc. In the case of 4 7 that prevented the movie from being finished. According to Kingsley at the end, it didn't prevent OHIBT from being finished and we know for ourselves that it didn't prevent IE from being finished.

DL said somewhere that he started shooting scenes as they came to him without knowing where they were going, and then at a certain point he saw something and said to himself, Aha! There is something connecting all these things! I'll bet that the connector he saw was that phantom and at that point he wrote him into the script. We can't know unless he says someday, but I just have a hunch about it.
TheMysteryMan
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re

Postby TheMysteryMan » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:44 am

My post "David Lynch Decoded" elaborates on the current theory trading re: Billy/The Phantom. Very good points here and thanks for the input 12Rainbow...

I like that idea of The Phantom as the connection for all the seemingly disparate ideas, particularly the suggestion that it was his influence on the film that leads to the scene with Julia Ormond in the police station...it is a scene that seems very unorthodox even by the standards of all the bizarre moments we've seen to that point.
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:19 am

TheMysteryMan wrote:...it is a scene that seems very unorthodox even by the standards of all the bizarre moments we've seen to that point.


It`s an incredible scene! One can feel the fear of "Doris". And there is something in the "air": "Who do you gonna kill?" "...YOU!" The policeman seem to burn with his eyes.
Carl
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Re: RANDOM THOUGHTS V -- Natassja Kinski in MTTH

Postby Carl » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:01 pm

I think that Doris scene with the cops would likely be near or at the end of OHIBT.
I can make little of it.
**I love the scene between Kinski and Nikki.
I think that the Billy reference unsettles Nikki, who is aware of a persona conflict, due to her immersion in the role of Sue, perhaps before her role has possessed her. Dunno where it would fit chrono-wise in the OHIBT, as I ain't wearing the watch.
I'm surprised, as with 2 or 3 other MTTH that DL cut this scene ( ditto where Nikki lies on the floor with the cross-talk telephone conversation.)They're bright moments for Dern, imo.
applesnoranges
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Re: RANDOM THOUGHTS V -- Natassja Kinski in MTTH

Postby applesnoranges » Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:24 am

Carl wrote:I think that Doris scene with the cops would likely be near or at the end of OHIBT.
I can make little of it.

Mystery to me too, but what you say seems to work because this character fits with the world of OHIBT. So maybe Ormond is not playing Doris here, but some unnamed character. Maybe she is the wife of the man who lived next door. Doris seems to be part of OHIBT too because she is the wife of Billy, but she is different when we see her. I don't know; maybe she is Doris at a different time.
**I love the scene between Kinski and Nikki.
I think that the Billy reference unsettles Nikki, who is aware of a persona conflict, due to her immersion in the role of Sue, perhaps before her role has possessed her. Dunno where it would fit chrono-wise in the OHIBT, as I ain't wearing the watch.

Yeah, great one. It seems to fit for me somewhere toward the beginning as Nikki knows she is playing in a movie with Billy and has heard the story of the curse and the old folk tale, but has not yet become lost in the role of Sue.
I'm surprised, as with 2 or 3 other MTTH that DL cut this scene ( ditto where Nikki lies on the floor with the cross-talk telephone conversation.)They're bright moments for Dern, imo.

Yes, that one is so confusing it is almost impossible to talk about. Better to just let that one roll for now.

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