North Carolina accent?

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applesnoranges
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North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:14 pm

TheMysteryMan: If you are from NC or close enough to it to know the regional accents, maybe you can say if there are any characters in IE who have a North Carolina accent. The Phantom and his sister are said to be from N.C. Billy seems to have two accents to me and Sue has two (as his maid and as the confessing woman). But I can't tell one "southern accent" from another. I've asked this before and was told that none of the accents sound very authentic and that they are more or less movie accents, but I thought I'd get a second opinion. Also, if they are fake sounding movie accents, does this play into the meaning of the story? (E.g. does Billy's unreal accent seem to indicate that Devon, who is playing his part, doesn't know the accent well?)
Last edited by applesnoranges on Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
applesnoranges
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Re: North Caroline accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:09 pm

applesnoranges wrote:TheMysteryMan: If you are from NC or close enough to it to know the regional accents, maybe you can say if there are any characters in IE who have a North Carolina accent. The Phantom and his sister are said to be from N.C. Billy seems to have two accents to me and Sue has two (as his maid and as the confessing woman). But I can't tell one "southern accent" from another. I've asked this before and was told that none of the accents sound very authentic and that they are more or less movie accents, but I thought I'd get a second opinion. Also, if they are fake sounding movie accents, does this play into the meaning of the story? (E.g. does Billy's unreal accent seem to indicate that Devon, who is playing his part, doesn't know the accent well?)

I'll bump what I said above because I just noticed something else. After a year and a half I feel pretty dumb not seeing this before.

Dern's accent changes steadily through the story. At the first reading of scene 35, even though Devon is reading Billy with the same accent, I guess, that he uses when they are having a drink, Nikki plays Sue without a trace of "southern" that I can hear. Even though the scene becomes more and more real for her until she seems to us to be really distressed, it's still in what I guess is a California accent.

On the veranda and in the having a drink scene, she acquires more of a drawl but not that much. The first time we hear it dumped on us like a ludicrous cartoon character is in the barbecue scene, asking the girls to look at her etc. This scene is one of the most unreal in the whole movie. It seems like Lost Girl's corny attempt to imitate an accent from American cowboy movies.

Then there is a much more genuine sounding one when she tells her husband she is pregnant. The most veristic scene in the story I think.

And then there is the monologue woman.

btw in the other post you mentioned the humor in her language. She seems to me to be almost straight out of Dumbland. She's like Mr. Dumbland's mother-in-law. It's as if he made Dumbland to be funny but then kept thinking about what the humor was about, the horror in people, and decided to make a serious version of it, but the humor in it was still there in a way.

But can you identify any of these accents or have opinions about how real or unreal they are supposed to be?
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Postby MichaelPW » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:22 am

btw - Somewhere I read that OHIBT is something like an old southern movie - and I think that that somewhere was either on the DVD-case or on Wikipedia.

applesnoranges wrote:At the first reading of scene 35, even though Devon is reading Billy with the same accent, I guess, that he uses when they are having a drink, Nikki plays Sue without a trace of "southern" that I can hear.


I like the order of names Kingsley uses when talking about scene 35. Could be seen as the beginning of the interweaving of reality and fiction.

Even though the scene becomes more and more real for her until she seems to us to be really distressed, it's still in what I guess is a California accent.


To me that means that Nikki is not Sue but Nikki.

On the veranda and in the having a drink scene, she acquires more of a drawl but not that much.


Here Nikki is a little bit Sue (=fiction).

The first time we hear it dumped on us like a ludicrous cartoon character is in the barbecue scene, asking the girls to look at her etc.


Haven`t noticed that before, but with regard to that I am German that`s not so problematic. It`s strange when there is a southern accent. Normally - for my point of view - it should be a California accent. So - as a whole - maybe this means: Within the movie OHIBT there is more and more Nikki and within reality there is more and more Sue (but we have an anchor in reality with Nikki Grace!).

It seems like Lost Girl's corny attempt to imitate an accent from American cowboy movies.


Maybe Nikki remembers her former life (when she was the real-life-character Lost Girl is based on) when she sees/reminds Lost Girl. It is a real hard time here for Nikki. She thinks that people on the street should know her, because she was in that movie OHIBT, but this one was just a remake noone had interest for. And her husband is leaving her! When he informs her about that he seems to be only fascinated by his going away. No thoughts for her. Maybe this is because Piotrek Król just isn`t Mr. Grace.

Then there is a much more genuine sounding one when she tells her husband she is pregnant. The most veristic scene in the story I think.


Means "genuine" here California accent or southern accent? What does the word "veristic" mean?

And then there is the monologue woman.


Somehow schizophrenic. A schizophrenic woman might have the need for living with her sister. And a schizophrenic woman could be a victim for husband number three. Or - otherwise - sexual abuse could be the source for schizophrenia.
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Postby applesnoranges » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:44 pm

MichaelPW wrote:I like the order of names Kingsley uses when talking about scene 35. Could be seen as the beginning of the interweaving of reality and fiction.

Yes, he begins that immediately. Then it happens: Devon goes to look and when the scene is repeated Nikki screams "Billy!" etc. Then he explains that the characters in 4 7 discovered something inside the story.
Even though the scene becomes more and more real for her until she seems to us to be really distressed, it's still in what I guess is a California accent.

To me that means that Nikki is not Sue but Nikki.

Yes, we begin seeing Nikki, then gradually she becomes more Sue. The way of looking at it that says Sue is real and imagining that she was Nikki playing her life as a movie begins to stain at this point. Although, oddly, as she is reading, she becomes more and more involved until we think we are watching the encounter and not the rehearsal of it.
Haven`t noticed that before, but with regard to that I am German that`s not so problematic. It`s strange when there is a southern accent. Normally - for my point of view - it should be a California accent. So - as a whole - maybe this means: Within the movie OHIBT there is more and more Nikki and within reality there is more and more Sue (but we have an anchor in reality with Nikki Grace!).

The difference between accents is the device used to tempt us to try to know if we are watching Nikki or Sue. The movie can't make too much of it because nobody from anywhere would know all the accents. I suspect that there are also different Polish accents which i can't identify. That's why I hope MysteryMan will return and clarify some of this southern business. (MM saw IE in North Carolina.) I've read people's criticism of Justin Theroux's inability to do a convincing "southern" accent, but I don't know if that is Theroux or Berk who is unconvincing.
Maybe Nikki remembers her former life (when she was the real-life-character Lost Girl is based on) when she sees/reminds Lost Girl.

It is so much simpler to simply see this as Lost Girl's scene. LG is the one who would think of Americans this way, the way they are shown on TV and in movies.
It is a real hard time here for Nikki. She thinks that people on the street should know her, because she was in that movie OHIBT, but this one was just a remake noone had interest for. And her husband is leaving her! When he informs her about that he seems to be only fascinated by his going away. No thoughts for her. Maybe this is because Piotrek Król just isn`t Mr. Grace.

I don't see any of that happening for Nikki. I only see Nikki getting the part and having an affair with Devon and Devon being killed. Nikki was once famous for other movies and she never talked like that.
Means "genuine" here California accent or southern accent? What does the word "veristic" mean?

A genuine southern accent. "You don't seem to happy about it." "What's wrong?" When I hear those, it sounds as if I am hearing a real person talking. By verisic I mean realistic. I think veristic is a special word for realistic applied to movie styles. Maybe i'm wrong but that is what I meant.
Somehow schizophrenic. A schizophrenic woman might have the need for living with her sister. And a schizophrenic woman could be a victim for husband number three. Or - otherwise - sexual abuse could be the source for schizophrenia.

The last sequence seems so real to me that it is as if we just overheard some real troubled woman talking to a counselor. I was a social worker in Los Angeles once and I had a client very much like her except that she did not talk about violence. Same confusion about time etc.
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Postby MichaelPW » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:34 am

applesnoranges wrote:Although, oddly, as she is reading, she becomes more and more involved until we think we are watching the encounter and not the rehearsal of it.


Yes! And "look into the other room" could be regarded as within the scene or as a call in reality or as a call to look inside the movie making. This reading scene is like the "rehearsal-kiss"-scene in MD. And, of course, we have a corresponding "coffee-dislike" scene in MD/IE. And we have a significance of getting the main role in MD and IE.

I've read people's criticism of Justin Theroux's inability to do a convincing "southern" accent, but I don't know if that is Theroux or Berk who is unconvincing.


Don`t know that, as well. :)

It is so much simpler to simply see this as Lost Girl's scene. LG is the one who would think of Americans this way, the way they are shown on TV and in movies.


But this way of seeing Americans isn`t a cause for preaching. That would mean to kill a mosquito with a bomb. Well, if we would regard Lost Girl as a "culture-purist", we could see it that way.

I don't see any of that happening for Nikki. I only see Nikki getting the part and having an affair with Devon and Devon being killed. Nikki was once famous for other movies and she never talked like that.


I see Nikki almost everywhere within IE :) . Maybe the German chapter-titles are to blame for that :) .

A genuine southern accent.


I like to see this scene as to see who Nikki really is. So why would we have the language of Sue? Maybe because there is something inside in movies like 4 7 and OHIBT. Maybe a story of real-life-people.

The last sequence seems so real to me that it is as if we just overheard some real troubled woman talking to a counselor.


And the music we hear when she speaks about her lost son (lost boy?, Smithie`s son?), seems to suggest that we hear here a real cause for everything.
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Postby applesnoranges » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:42 pm

MichaelPW wrote:Yes! And "look into the other room" could be regarded as within the scene or as a call in reality or as a call to look inside the movie making. This reading scene is like the "rehearsal-kiss"-scene in MD. And, of course, we have a corresponding "coffee-dislike" scene in MD/IE. And we have a significance of getting the main role in MD and IE.

Yes, all those things. A little different twist here though. In Betty's audition we are similarly confused by not being sure if we are watching Betty or the character in the script (while in reality we are watching Naomi Watts), but in the IE rehearsal, Nikki becomes overtaken by her character and seems to become her character, and yet she retains her Nikki accent. I'm not sure what that means. According to the accent, we see her become more and more Sue each time we see her and yet, this was really moving for Nikki. Maybe at this point it is just the power of the drama. Actors can't remain unaffected by their characters so it's kind of spooky to imagine what Laura Dern felt about all this. Then at one point, when Devon asks her to go to dinner, they both become Sue and Billy. It's as if they are playing a game of pretending that they are their characters who have an affair. Yet, since this whole thing seems to be a dream or hypnotic trance or something, there is no real way to know who they are.
But this way of seeing Americans isn`t a cause for preaching. That would mean to kill a mosquito with a bomb. Well, if we would regard Lost Girl as a "culture-purist", we could see it that way.

I never got that impression, that she was deliberately satirizing. More like her first attempt to imagine America and she based it on TV in an exaggerated way. A little like the end of 2001 a Space Odyssey. The extraterrestrials have created an environment for Bowman that they hope will make him feel at home but they based it on what they saw on Earth TV ... so there were cans of canned food but the writing on them could not be read. (This happens in the movie but we can only learn of this detail from the book.)
I see Nikki almost everywhere within IE :) . Maybe the German chapter-titles are to blame for that :) .

Maybe so! :lol: I don't know what to say about this ubiquitous Nikki. matildak on http://www.inlandempirecinema.com became more and more convinced that only Sue was real. I couldn't agree with him but I could see what he meant because he wrote it all out. You might find that interesting. Go to the board and look for his name somewhere (or I think you can search it) and click his name to find his profile, then look at his posts. He brought up many theories, very interesting thinker, but then he settled on this depressing, end of the world, Sue is real version which I could not follow.
I like to see this scene as to see who Nikki really is. So why would we have the language of Sue? Maybe because there is something inside in movies like 4 7 and OHIBT. Maybe a story of real-life-people.

That seems close to what matildak came to think, only he called her Sue. He saw this as the only real woman and the Hollywood star and the old Polish movie as fantasies.
And the music we hear when she speaks about her lost son (lost boy?, Smithie`s son?), seems to suggest that we hear here a real cause for everything.

Yes, I see it that way, for her. Many people have seen the whole thing as based on guilt over her extra-marital affair. I think neither that nor anything else could even come close to the horror of losing a child.
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Postby MichaelPW » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:12 am

applesnoranges wrote:Actors can't remain unaffected by their characters so it's kind of spooky to imagine what Laura Dern felt about all this.


She will know more than we do. For example, if you hadn`t tell, I probably wouldn`t know ever that the LB changed upside down on her hand. But she knows such things from the very beginning. And she can conclude a lot more than we can from making the movie. Think that she stays cool about all that. Also when this could be called "professional". Also when her husband comes from Inland Empire.

matildak on http://www.inlandempirecinema.com became more and more convinced that only Sue was real. I couldn't agree with him but I could see what he meant because he wrote it all out. You might find that interesting.


I think I have seen his picture-evidence somewhere with the lucky watches. Couldn`t find a mistake within these pictures with regard to the extent I looked to them. Or these pictures were from someone else. I`m quite convinced that only Nikki is real (as a poor woman with the need for saving money, with big dreams in which the rabbits and Piotrek entered which leads to another life for her (to a "Lost Girl", Piotrek and Smithie`s son life and to a dancing in the dancing hall life)). But it seems that there were other things real. In times when production of 4 7 took place.

That seems close to what matildak came to think, only he called her Sue.


At this point maybe it is irrelevant to call her Sue or Nikki.

He saw this as the only real woman and the Hollywood star and the old Polish movie as fantasies.


Wouldn`t say that the Polish movie isn`t a fantasy. But I think that we see nothing from that movie. Only circumstances around that movie.

Yes, I see it that way, for her. Many people have seen the whole thing as based on guilt over her extra-marital affair. I think neither that nor anything else could even come close to the horror of losing a child.


Yes, that`s true. On the other side there are people who take the "Yes" within a marriage as serious - as very serious. And the church claims a connection to God. So doing something against the bonds of marriage could be regarded as doing something against God. God could be the decider if people get to the "endstation" of the "born-again-cycle" (=dancing hall) or "stay in hell" (=Lost Girl with fear). He could decide that depending on the answer to "Were you in fact seeing other men" and depending on balancing the answer with other things God hears. And in Poland there is a very high significance of Catholic church. However, this would combine Catholic philosophy and the philosophy of Buddhism. The consequence of doing something against the bonds of marriage could be losing a child. And the consequence of losing a child could be dying.
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Postby applesnoranges » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:21 pm

MichaelPW wrote:
applesnoranges wrote:That seems close to what matildak came to think, only he called her Sue.

At this point maybe it is irrelevant to call her Sue or Nikki.

Some people on imdb refer to what they call "the WiT". The idea is that there is one woman and we see different things about her. Where that theory loses my interest is in trying to determine something that happened that we don't see. I'm interested in seeing the meanings of the things that we do see.
Wouldn`t say that the Polish movie isn`t a fantasy. But I think that we see nothing from that movie. Only circumstances around that movie.

I think that Nikki is the only one who heard about that movie so the ideas pertaining to it are her fantasies. But again, since there is no "home base" of reality, then who is to say what is real and what is not. Once she thinks of it or dreams of it, then there it is as part of the story.
On the other side there are people who take the "Yes" within a marriage as serious - as very serious. And the church claims a connection to God.

For me, in this movie, it's as the producer said: "Stories are stories." Probably David Lynch doesn't think so, but I'm only watching this movie as a story.
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Postby MichaelPW » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:40 pm

applesnoranges wrote:The idea is that there is one woman and we see different things about her.


I also like the idea that Nikki and Lost Girl are the same person. According to the theory of TM one cannot disappear. So David Lynch says that his holyness died, but is (still) there. But I don`t know what or whether the theory of TM proposes about "being born again". Maybe Lost Girl is in a state of death and her "watching TV" is reminding the past. She would maybe remember that she was a woman in a luxurious house and met Visitor 1 before she died. Maybe she "is" also the phantom. Meaning that there is somewhere a part of her own, but it isn`t easy to get connected to that part again. Maybe being divided in two or more parts means "halfborn". And in the moment Nikki and Lost Girl kiss, the two parts are reunited (="fullborn").

Where that theory loses my interest is in trying to determine something that happened that we don't see. I'm interested in seeing the meanings of the things that we do see.


It`s difficult to say how David Lynch works with regard to that. Do we have all puzzle-pieces with Inland Empire and MTTH or are there more puzzle-pieces within our fantasy?! Probably both works. I really think that the familiar one for Nikki is Lost Girl, because in the scene in which Lost Girl describes how to see Nikki opens her eyes at the beginning. And who is the first familiar one we see when we are dying? Maybe it is ourselves.

I think that Nikki is the only one who heard about that movie so the ideas pertaining to it are her fantasies.


Nikki hears "This is the street" and it is as if it was a confirmation. As if she already knows that there is a street. Obviously this street has something to do with the curse. But Devon sees this street for a short moment, as well. Maybe the street is in the other room. What other information do we have with regard to that street? That there is a "house 40", that there was a murder in the near and that there was meeting between "Lost Girl" and the phantom which almost wasn`t a meeting. Maybe Lost Girl met a part of her own - maybe there almost wasn`t a reunification. Maybe also Smithie`s son could be regarded as a reunification of the parts of Lost Girl. Perhaps the parts of Lost Girl were dispersed through the whole world and through the whole time. Some parts in California, some parts in Hollywood, some parts in Nort Carolina, some parts in the past, some parts in Poland, some parts in the baltic region, ... . How could this happen? Maybe because Lost Girl wanted more, although she already had all what one needs to be happy.

But again, since there is no "home base" of reality, then who is to say what is real and what is not.


Maybe the "home base" of reality is Lost Girl in a state of death. Perhaps on the one side her parts are dispersed through space and time and on the other side there is an important part of her own by Mr. K and that part and Mr. K are "working" on different stations of her former lifes. Maybe she already was a famous movie star in California, a prostitute in North Carolina, a murdered lead in a movie-making in Europe, a prostitute in Poland in her former lifes. Maybe she remembers how she heard about Crimp and then tells Mr. K about that.

Once she thinks of it or dreams of it, then there it is as part of the story.


Maybe we see scenes which happened in former lifes and which are remembered in front of Mr. K.

For me, in this movie, it's as the producer said: "Stories are stories."


A quite veristic scene I think.
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Postby applesnoranges » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:23 am

MichaelPW wrote:I also like the idea that Nikki and Lost Girl are the same person. According to the theory of TM one cannot disappear.

From what I've seen and heard of Lynch's view from videos etc. is that everything comes from what is called the Atma. So that is the one greater Self of which all other selves are made. So in that way all the characters are the same, which is why the subtitle, "A Woman in Trouble". We watch interactions of various versions of her. That is not the same as the idea some people have that there is some other story, here on Earth, about someone we don't see or hear "” and that what we are watching are disguised versions of what happens in her mind after she has gone crazy. These versions always amount to attempts to hide from herself the truth of what she feels guilty about which has driven her crazy. The point of the movie, for people who see it that way, is to try to figure out what happened to the so-called "real" woman in trouble.
Maybe Lost Girl is in a state of death and her "watching TV" is reminding the past. She would maybe remember that she was a woman in a luxurious house and met Visitor 1 before she died.

I hadn't thought of that and can't see what that story would be but it's possible.
Maybe she "is" also the phantom. Meaning that there is somewhere a part of her own, but it isn`t easy to get connected to that part again. Maybe being divided in two or more parts means "halfborn". And in the moment Nikki and Lost Girl kiss, the two parts are reunited (="fullborn").

It's like cinemalover's version in the thread from iec.com: that Nikki is a part of Lost Girl's soul that got cut off from her to pay her debt. The phantom seems to be what makes everything happen. Without the phantom there would be no story. I get the feeling that the phantom was originally an idea of David Lynch's, an idea which he didn't understand but was there so he followed it. The scene of Doris and the policeman seems to have been the phantom's idea; something that had nothing to do with the story up to that point. Then he saw the relationship: the opening scene of the phantom wanting into the story and then the scene of the confrontation in the Sides' home. The phantom got into the story there through the hatred of the two women. The idea that Janek let him in is something we could say I guess because she had a key to the servants' entrance of the home, but I would not say willingly. The security system of lights would be "Janek" and somehow crazy Sue got in, though Billy was warned. She was not invited. Anyway, that is where we see the phantom hypnotizing the women to turn them against each other. (So maybe he did that in Poland too? Just a thought.) That scene is like a little movie of its own, one with a different Billy who does not remember what she remembers. That scene provides the motive for the murder. so, the phantom busted his way into the story and provided the motive for the murder.
Do we have all puzzle-pieces with Inland Empire and MTTH or are there more puzzle-pieces within our fantasy?! Probably both works.

It's different for people who do and do not have MTTH. He must have many more hours. The shooting went on for a couple of years. I think he must have much more about the Nastassja character for example. So, when the feature came out, people started filling in the rest for themselves, then that was disrupted by MTTH.
I really think that the familiar one for Nikki is Lost Girl, because in the scene in which Lost Girl describes how to see Nikki opens her eyes at the beginning.

I didn't notice that but it would seem right. She is familiar because she is the rest of herself. But who told her that? Who are the two women who follow her around?
Nikki hears "This is the street" and it is as if it was a confirmation. As if she already knows that there is a street. Obviously this street has something to do with the curse.

Yes.
But Devon sees this street for a short moment, as well.

It's there but I wonder if he sees it. He doesn't seem to be much of a real character who experiences much, he had not heard of the Polish story at that point, and there is no Theroux charcter in Poland.
Maybe the street is in the other room. What other information do we have with regard to that street? That there is a "house 40", that there was a murder in the near and that there was meeting between "Lost Girl" and the phantom which almost wasn`t a meeting.

It's where Mr. K. resides.
Maybe Lost Girl met a part of her own - maybe there almost wasn`t a reunification. Maybe also Smithie`s son could be regarded as a reunification of the parts of Lost Girl. Perhaps the parts of Lost Girl were dispersed through the whole world and through the whole time. Some parts in California, some parts in Hollywood, some parts in Nort Carolina, some parts in the past, some parts in Poland, some parts in the baltic region, ... . How could this happen? Maybe because Lost Girl wanted more, although she already had all what one needs to be happy.

It feels right but I don't follow the story you are seeing here about the son. You mean when the son "died" he is still there like the Maharishi?
Maybe the "home base" of reality is Lost Girl in a state of death. Perhaps on the one side her parts are dispersed through space and time and on the other side there is an important part of her own by Mr. K and that part and Mr. K are "working" on different stations of her former lifes. Maybe she already was a famous movie star in California, a prostitute in North Carolina, a murdered lead in a movie-making in Europe, a prostitute in Poland in her former lifes. Maybe she remembers how she heard about Crimp and then tells Mr. K about that.

That comes closest but the opening scene doesn't seem to come from her; she seems to be the latest example of this "old story", on the radio and phonograph and in the old folk tale, etc. But then there would be nobody to be seeing the opening scene and the phonograph. I guess Lost Girl comes closest that way because we see the phonograph again when she shows Nikki how to see.
Maybe we see scenes which happened in former lifes and which are remembered in front of Mr. K.

Yes. One way of seeing it is that she was crazy and meaningless fantasies occurred to her, but it also could be that they are not meaningless. In her weakened psychological state, these stories become available to her. Otherwise there is no way to account for the things she knows, such as the existence of the phantom in the circus, what happened to his sister, etc. From the point of view of Lynch and Dern (and also Neff as we have seen), this is the basic woman where the story begins. All the other stories seem to pass through her, but first it is Lost Girl's story, the story of her redemption. Neff said (I think) it was originally a monolog prior to her death, so what may be occurring to her is what "will happen". She may become Nikki Grace, but that may be another way of saying that she already is Nikki and all these other people.

But how can she encounter Mr. K. while she is still alive? Mr. K. seems to get a phone call from Janek. It seems as if our home base just slipped away again!
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Postby MichaelPW » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:50 am

applesnoranges wrote:That scene is like a little movie of its own, one with a different Billy who does not remember what she remembers.


Would say that Billy remembers, but doesn`t admit that. It seems that we see him here as a hypnotizer. He tries to maintain the hypnosis on "Sue". For that he uses words like "Sue!" and "Go away now!". Probably this means "Stay in your role, Nikki!" and "Do something what the "director" tells you!"

That scene provides the motive for the murder.


I don`t know who Devon is. Maybe he is a rabbit - maybe this would explain the rabbit-like-sign on his leather jacket. But I assume that he is someone who doesn`t want to have a relationship with Nikki, after there was an affair with her. So Nikki is searching for reasons. One reason could be that Devon is married. But we know that he isn`t. And Nikki probably knows that. Therefore Nikki thinks: "The reason is no marriage." In the confrontation-scene she says: "I think you were gone." She wants to find out in that house the reason what is wrong. So maybe when she says "I think you were gone" she thinks "I ruled out that reason". Ok, why would Billy start an affair with Sue? Maybe he would like to have more childs than one. Maybe he would like to have two, but this couldn`t be possible with Doris. So we would have the same motive as in Poland.

so, the phantom busted his way into the story and provided the motive for the murder.


btw - I like the lists of movies within imdb. Especially those for Grace Zabriskie, Penny Hintz, Julia Ormond, Krzysztof Majchrzak, Karolina Gruszka, Jan Hencz, Naomi Watts and Laura Harring. "The man who lays the gun on the table" also has an interesting one. And I like the idea to see movies with Krzyszttof Majchrzak, Karolina Gruszka, Jan Hencz for different reasons. For example to see how David Lynch maybe came to thoughts similar to: "Oh, that actor/actress I need for a movie." Or to see more of the beautifulness of Karolina Gruszka. Or to listen more to that nice language Polish, while understanding the content of such movies ( :) ). Or to see where the phantom already was ( :) ). Or the watcher of doors.

It's different for people who do and do not have MTTH.


Now I have MTTH and all the bonus stuff and can`t watch it. Obviously there is a difference between NTSC and NTSC/region 1. But maybe I will find a friend who coincidentally and unintendently has a codefree dvd player for a short time.

He must have many more hours.


But probably not such in which the corpses come to death. ( :) )

I think he must have much more about the Nastassja character for example.


I have seen IE again. This time I saw Nikki saying "Piotrek?" Very nice within this incredible scene!!! I didn`t see Mrs. Zydowicz saying anything. Maybe her "half" is cut out in my version (1). (btw - in my version 2 there is a nice poster inside saying "Inland Empire") And probably I identified Penny Hintz, when she is the one who sits besides the man in "black". And I have to say the more often I watch IE, the more I like Nastassja Kinski sitting there and looking to Laura Dern. Very intense moment and probably full of symbolism!

But who told her that? Who are the two women who follow her around?


They represent her thoughts.

You mean when the son "died" he is still there like the Maharishi?


According to TM philosophy I think that everybody is always there.

Neff said (I think) it was originally a monolog prior to her death, so what may be occurring to her is what "will happen".


I think he said that the monolog is about her death. It seems that Mr. K decides about what will happen next. Obviously this decision also depends on the answer to his question. His higher instance could be Janek. Maybe Janek wants to know, whether the problem is solved in the near future.
applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:22 pm

MichaelPW wrote:Would say that Billy remembers, but doesn`t admit that. It seems that we see him here as a hypnotizer. He tries to maintain the hypnosis on "Sue". For that he uses words like "Sue!" and "Go away now!". Probably this means "Stay in your role, Nikki!" and "Do something what the "director" tells you!"

It's one way of seeing it but Sue seems absolutely convinced that "something's bad wrong" and that he does not remember. He seems to me to be very different from the one who was offering her a drink. What he says to her reminds me of trying to control a dog but he is not good with animals.

I don`t know who Devon is. ... So we would have the same motive as in Poland.

I can see why you want to tie the motives of Devon and Billy to Poland but there isn't enough on screen for me to see that. Piotrek wanted to have children. I don't see Devon as that complicated. He is known to be someone who has affairs with many women in Hollywood so it should come as no surprise that he dumped Nikki after a short time. Billy is the same with Sue. He just was attracted to his housekeeper. He doesn't seem to have a "reason" for it. She tells him in the garden scene that what he's doing is senseless.
btw - I like the lists of movies within imdb.

There is a movie called "The Hidden" with Kyle McLaughlin which I think provided the Dale Cooper character. Sci-fi movie and a good one. I think he plays the same character in that movie.
Now I have MTTH and all the bonus stuff and can`t watch it. Obviously there is a difference between NTSC and NTSC/region 1. But maybe I will find a friend who coincidentally and unintendently has a codefree dvd player for a short time.

I know nothing about it but I think there is software that lets one change all that on a computer. When "DVD Player" on my Mac comes up for the first time, it asks which region to set it for. Maybe that can be changed. But there is other movie playing software for Mac so maybe also for PC. I downloaded a free player for Mac called VLC because it does things the standard Mac one doesn't.
I have seen IE again. This time I saw Nikki saying "Piotrek?" Very nice within this incredible scene!!! I didn`t see Mrs. Zydowicz saying anything. Maybe her "half" is cut out in my version (1).

I don't remember who says it, her or him, but one of them does.

The two who taunt her are Lanni and Lorri. They seem attached to Lost Girl and so also are to Sue. They are a link of some kind.

btw: I like the thoughts of tummu on imdb who takes it in a completely different direction from what we have been discussing. http://imdb.com/title/tt0460829/board/thread/98643026?d=101323874&p=4#101323874 tummu sees them as creations of the phantom; his means of hypnotizing. They ridicule both Dern and Gruszka and they are free at the end. Some discussion followed that when they appear to Dern after the flashing lamp and say their hypnotizing line, they are showing her the curse in Poland, but then Lost Girl intervenes over the record player and shows Dern's character a means of understanding this and becoming more consciously in control. (The hole in the silk etc.)
I think he said that the monolog is about her death. It seems that Mr. K decides about what will happen next. Obviously this decision also depends on the answer to his question. His higher instance could be Janek. Maybe Janek wants to know, whether the problem is solved in the near future.

Again the tummu view is interesting to me. Mr. K. doesn't really care what she says; he just wants to keep her there until Piotrek can bring the gun to the California part of the movie so she can find it and use it. That's why Janek calls him and he says, "Yeah ... still here." Janek is just checking to see if they still have enough time.

So, from her story about the refrigerator shelf, the back room, etc., we see a picture of someone who has nothing to do with the rest of the story. So it is as if they found someone who had not much time left in life so that she could reincarnate as Nikki when she died, Nikki could play Sue, and Sue could become this woman (as this woman's weakened mind was invaded by the story of Sue). She only cares about one part of the Sue story: what is hidden in the drawer. That does not untangle everything, nothing does, but it tells some part of the story.
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:07 am

applesnoranges wrote:It's one way of seeing it but Sue seems absolutely convinced that "something's bad wrong" and that he does not remember.


I don`t know, if "Sue" seems absolutely convinced that he does not remember. To me rather not. She shouts to him "Are you listening to me?!". Perhaps because she takes the possibility into account that he could not.

He seems to me to be very different from the one who was offering her a drink.


Yes, first one is after the affair and last one before it. I often think that the curse already has an effect in the moment they kiss. The music and the black background suggest that.

What he says to her reminds me of trying to control a dog but he is not good with animals.


Yes, but the husband of "Sue" has a way with animals. I always wonder why the monolog woman describes the face of "her husband" and then we see "her" face. Mr. K speaks as much to monolog woman as some people would speak with their animals. Freddy speaks about dogs. The barbecue scene could be the dream or perception of a dog. Could be that the philosophy of buddhism proposes that people were animals in former lifes. Well, humans are animals, too, of course.

Piotrek wanted to have children.


We assume that from "I can`t give you children" I think. I don`t know, if Lost Girl could give children in her former life. I don`t know, if Smithie`s son is the result of breaking the curse. And we don`t know, if Lost Girl and Piotrek are the parents of Smithie`s son, but I think we can assume that.

He just was attracted to his housekeeper.


Probably yes.

There is a movie called "The Hidden" with Kyle McLaughlin which I think provided the Dale Cooper character. Sci-fi movie and a good one. I think he plays the same character in that movie.


Interesting. I like the picture with Lucas and Lynch very much! The man in the background seems to coordinate things. Think that many parts must fit, when one wants to realize a project like Inland Empire.

The two who taunt her are Lanni and Lorri.


Thank you very much for this information. I have to check the movie lists again.

tummu sees them as creations of the phantom; his means of hypnotizing.


Think that the phantom doesn`t want her to see. But it could be. Maybe the phantom wants to be shot. He seems that he really likes to be shot. But I stay by my assumption that the girls always represent her thoughts. When the street girls see her and ask her "Where have you been?", it seems that they think that they know her for a long time. From the street girls` perspective I don`t understand that.

Again the tummu view is interesting to me. Mr. K. doesn't really care what she says; he just wants to keep her there until Piotrek can bring the gun to the California part of the movie so she can find it and use it. That's why Janek calls him and he says, "Yeah ... still here." Janek is just checking to see if they still have enough time.


Interesting thought. But when Mr. K would try to keep her there, he could ask a lot more questions. Ok, he waits during the ringing of the telephone. I think he also says something like: "I think it will not last much longer now." What does he mean? To have her tought that LB is not LB? To have her told anything? To have her crazy enough? Until he is finished with work, so that he come to the city? That "Nikki" occurs in after death state? And what makes her to leave suddenly?

She only cares about one part of the Sue story: what is hidden in the drawer.


Without knowing the content of MTTH (as a movie) so far, I see that Nikki is in the theater and sees what was with Mr. K. Before she refused to wear white. Maybe an angel suggested to wear white. So she gets blue (reminding perhaps on Sue Blue). In the theater she lays this blue apart. Some thing is different in the movie she sees. She sees something that she will do in the future. She doesn`t know that so far - it`s something new. Mr. K shows her where she can do that. And we have some stairs. Before her death she didn`t know what was before and what was after. But after her death she learns in a certain sense what the future is.
applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:03 pm

MichaelPW wrote:Yes, first one is after the affair and last one before it. I often think that the curse already has an effect in the moment they kiss. The music and the black background suggest that.

We've been set up to think that Nikki is sure this won't happen, so yes, it comes as a shock. It's what we wish would not happen. btw in the little shot of Devon dead, he is wearing a black suit like that but it's a little messed up and we see part of his white T shirt underneath, the one he wears with the black jacket. It's as if he left it on when he dressed for the part of Billy in a black suit (a suit to be buried in). It would be tempting to think that Nikki and Devon went to the studio and used the Smithy's House set for their own tryst, but we know that from their point of view, Smithy's House is not finished and is only a front.
Piotrek wanted to have children.


We assume that from "I can`t give you children" I think.

We have another thread where I'll continue this.
Interesting. I like the picture with Lucas and Lynch very much! The man in the background seems to coordinate things. Think that many parts must fit, when one wants to realize a project like Inland Empire.

Peter Lucas or George Lucas? What movie? The one on peterlucas.com?
But I stay by my assumption that the girls always represent her thoughts. When the street girls see her and ask her "Where have you been?", it seems that they think that they know her for a long time. From the street girls` perspective I don`t understand that.

Yes Dern's own view is that they represent the thoughts of the woman in the monolog. For her that is where the story starts.

If we view the encounter with the street girls and they ask where she has been and laugh at her as objective reality, it looks as if she is a crazy woman who hangs out there (and many do!) and they are accustomed to seeing her there as a weird person to laugh at. They are so much younger than she is that it would seem crazy to them to hear this beat up woman saying she is a whore. But according to that tummu story of Mr. K. keeping her there to take up time, they might be asking where she had disappeared to and then come back.

Interesting thought. But when Mr. K would try to keep her there, he could ask a lot more questions. Ok, he waits during the ringing of the telephone. I think he also says something like: "I think it will not last much longer now." What does he mean? To have her tought that LB is not LB? To have her told anything? To have her crazy enough?

I don't know; I see your point: that has not been answered yet.

Until he is finished with work, so that he come to the city?

i can't agree that this is canon. It is the mistake of the French translator. Maybe waiting for the elephant to finish painting the eggs? :roll:
She only cares about one part of the Sue story: what is hidden in the drawer.

Without knowing the content of MTTH (as a movie) so far, I see that Nikki is in the theater and sees what was with Mr. K. Before she refused to wear white. Maybe an angel suggested to wear white. So she gets blue (reminding perhaps on Sue Blue). In the theater she lays this blue apart. Some thing is different in the movie she sees. She sees something that she will do in the future. She doesn`t know that so far - it`s something new. Mr. K shows her where she can do that. And we have some stairs. Before her death she didn`t know what was before and what was after. But after her death she learns in a certain sense what the future is.

Yes, I agree with all of that. But I was talking about the identity of the monolog woman and how selective she is in identifying with Sue. She ran into the club when she was frightened to seeing the Ormond character on the street, but she didn't tell Mr. K. about it. It is as if we are seeing two different people as the monolog woman (and for a while we actually do, across the street from each other). They may be all the same "character" in the sense that they all look and sound the same, but they may be played by different people. (I don't mean different real people; they are all Dern; I mean different in that one is played by Nikki and one is played by herself, for example. The one played by Nikki may be the one who talks about Sue, but there may be another one who is just who she is. Someone tried to rape her when she was 15 and she poked his eyes out, she lives in her sister's back room and eats melted ice cream, etc. This one seems to know nothing abut Sue.)
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:18 am

applesnoranges wrote:btw in the little shot of Devon dead, he is wearing a black suit like that but it's a little messed up and we see part of his white T shirt underneath, the one he wears with the black jacket. It's as if he left it on when he dressed for the part of Billy in a black suit (a suit to be buried in).


I wonder if the rabbit-like symbol on his black leather jacket is a rabbit shape or maybe a marihuana plant. Also wonder in how far the shadow of the camera man on the set is intended. Interesting detail this white T shirt. Maybe I will have the opportunity to see it in about two weeks. Imagine that normally it is strictly forbidden to wear private clothes during a professional shot, of course. So one more evidence for the flowing between reality and fiction.

It would be tempting to think that Nikki and Devon went to the studio and used the Smithy's House set for their own tryst, but we know that from their point of view, Smithy's House is not finished and is only a front.


btw - I read that David Lynch used his own house for shots. But I don`t know if that is true for former rabbit parts or for rabbit parts or more than the rabbit parts in Inland Empire. Very nice from him to have his fans a look into his house!

Interestingly we don`t have a view of Smithie`s house when it turns real - we don`t see what "Sue" sees. At least at that time when it becomes reality. It`s different when "Sue" leaves to visit Billy and his family.

Peter Lucas or George Lucas? What movie?


The first picture of the Peter Lucas site on imdb. It seems that they plan the shooting of the scene in which "Piotrek" gets the gun.

If we view the encounter with the street girls and they ask where she has been and laugh at her as objective reality, it looks as if she is a crazy woman who hangs out there (and many do!) and they are accustomed to seeing her there as a weird person to laugh at. They are so much younger than she is that it would seem crazy to them to hear this beat up woman saying she is a whore.


From their points of view it also could be viewed as if she is one of them since long. Although she really looks like feeling sick, before she says "I`m a freak". Like if she were in a carousel of realities before, then realizing where she is now and then saying "Ok, I accept it (to play this reality role)". This version of the monolog woman seems to be on the marketplace, not realizing another version of herself, but seeing a woman who we could name Doris. But the version of the monolog woman who follows the alley realizes another version of her. The woman following the alley don`t accept the version she sees. Probably she kills that version with a screwdriver. But only as that version which the woman on the marketplace sees. The version who follows the alley wants to have the access to the waiting room which will lead to the palace in the end. And she has the key word. I think we have a parallel to the "deep-level-Nikki-Lost Girl"-scene, when "Carolina" whispers (the secrets how to see?, the secrets how to come to Mr. K?, the secrets showing the exit?) something in her ear.

But according to that tummu story of Mr. K. keeping her there to take up time, they might be asking where she had disappeared to and then come back.


I recently often ask myself, whether there could be a meaning in the opposite of "Watch this move" = "Move this watch".

i can't agree that this is canon. It is the mistake of the French translator.


It could be one cause for her sudden leaving. "I have told him so much...He said not many things...When there is a phone call, he speaks and speaks...Says "Think that it won`t last much longer now...Will come to the city"...Obviously he has better things to do than listen to me." But maybe there is a meaning that we don`t see him speaking, but seeing two A`s.

She ran into the club when she was frightened to seeing the Ormond character on the street, but she didn't tell Mr. K. about it.


It seems to be a quite magically process when she enters the way to the stairs. Transformation of her consciousness could take place here.

It is as if we are seeing two different people as the monolog woman (and for a while we actually do, across the street from each other).


Yes, one following the alley and one being on the marketplace.

They may be all the same "character" in the sense that they all look and sound the same, but they may be played by different people.


I don`t know who the woman on the marketplace is. She seems to be completely insane, "because" she doesn`t recognize another version of herself and experience being murdered by that another version of herself, "although" there is no murder in OHIBT. Maybe she commits suicide. After death she seems to be the same version who recognized another version of herself on the marketplace, who (first one) has a very conscious relationship to Lost Girl. Maybe Lost Girl is lost, because she was forced to sold herself by hypnosis.

Someone tried to rape her when she was 15 and she poked his eyes out, she lives in her sister's back room and eats melted ice cream, etc.


Maybe women who are susceptible to hypnosis which will lead to sex with them have two possible fates: getting lost or getting insane.

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