North Carolina accent?

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MichaelPW
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby MichaelPW » Tue May 13, 2008 7:31 am

In my opinion Kingsley and Freddy don`t talk about a self-fullfilling prophecy, but joke about a real curse. And whether one believes in a real curse is one`s own decision. It`s the same with believing in a "person" as Mr. K I guess. But the effect of a real curse (if such a phenomena exist) is indepent of what one believes in the most cases I think.

No, I think the woman in 12 would react in another way if she would think that Betty looks like Diane. She would react in the opposite direction than Ellie Parker reacts when she sees the one in the shop.

Immediately after the garden scene we have an inside scene without the opportunity of enjoying the lovely weather.

Interesting idea with counting the scenes.
applesnoranges
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Wed May 14, 2008 10:19 am

MichaelPW wrote:Immediately after the garden scene we have an inside scene without the opportunity of enjoying the lovely weather.

Then I don't see why the line would be in the movie. If it is as you say, then every time a scene moved from outside to inside in any movie someone would say that. But that doesn't happen because we can see it for ourselves.

I think the line is part of the issue of what is part of OHIBT and what is not. The combination of that and seeing the Polish street on Kingsley's set provides a way of seeing Kingsley as having taken Nikki to Poland to film her scenes there.
Carl
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby Carl » Wed May 14, 2008 1:09 pm

I agree that the point, the 'reality', of a 'curse' is that people believe in it. Likely 'curses' do often originate from a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. That does not mean that no curses are real though. 'If you play with fire, you'll burn your fingers.' :wink:
I have considered that , on some level, Kingsley, by telling them of the curse and earlier production, as well as Nikki's powerful husband, by getting her the role in a production of which he knows the details and then by crudely warning Devon not to be tempted, are setting up such a suggestible situation that belief in the curse might ensue.
That's not a fave view of mine because it seems insufficient, on it's own , to cause such behavior. Still, maybe Nikki was a lot more insecure ( to the extent of denying or even actually surpressing that she spoke Polish?), with her old Persona as a star slipping away, and Devon as well, rising to the challenge like a fish to the bait, ala Don Juan .
**I see the 'leave this lovely weather' as a suggestion that they are indeed going to film in Poland, though what scenes in OHIBT might have been there are open to intersting questions. The Dern walking down the Polish street and 'cross-talk' conversation that follows in MTTH, maybe? Probably the seance and visit to the shed in the woods. Here, I think the Phantom is the one he ( Smithy, I suppose)seeks and works for. These last 2 scenes seem out of sequence to me.
applesnoranges
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Sat May 17, 2008 12:05 pm

Carl wrote:I have considered that , on some level, Kingsley, by telling them of the curse and earlier production, as well as Nikki's powerful husband, by getting her the role in a production of which he knows the details and then by crudely warning Devon not to be tempted, are setting up such a suggestible situation that belief in the curse might ensue.

It is mainly the line, "It was said to be cursed. So it turned out to be." that keeps ringing in my ears. He is saying that it turned out to be cursed because it was said to be cursed.
I see the 'leave this lovely weather' as a suggestion that they are indeed going to film in Poland, though what scenes in OHIBT might have been there are open to intersting questions. The Dern walking down the Polish street and 'cross-talk' conversation that follows in MTTH, maybe? Probably the seance and visit to the shed in the woods.

It doesn't make all the scenes that seem to reflect each other suddenly pop into place as one thing; I still can't see it as a series of nesting boxes because of that. In other words, I don't see the idea that part of Kingsley's film is shot in Poland as something which gives me a sense of solid reality to stand on. But without it, then where to the Poland scenes come from? We seem to be seeing clips of the old movie but we don't see anyone showing them to us.
Here, I think the Phantom is the one he ( Smithy, I suppose)seeks and works for. These last 2 scenes seem out of sequence to me.

The only thing we know about "the phantom" is from the monolog, They had this guy working for them. Everyone called him the phantom. Then we see a shot of a guy in a T shirt. I can't see any way of imagining that anyone worked for him. Lucas' character, both in the barbecue scene and at the shed seems to me clearly to work for Gordy. He had an appointment with Gordy (wearing the captain's hat) at 3:00. At the shed, Gordy doesn't need to answer his questions.

Also, since no one in the story is called "Smithy", and Lucas' character as Sue's husband can't create children, and there is a child called "Smithy's Son", I never understand why people often call this guy Smithy. Since Gruszka's character can have children and seems to treat Smithy's Son as her child, isn't she likely to be Smithy and that house hers? Dern's character has been trapped in that house for most of the movie but really doesn't seem to belong there. She says she is not in her house but in some other place. At the end, she finds her way to Gruszka's character's room and gives her back her house and her son. That all seems to be a story to me. But I don't see any story connected with the idea that Lucas' character is named Smithy. There could be other identifications of Smithy too"”such as that "Smithy" is not someone's name but someone's occupation: "Who is playing Smithy?" But assigning that name to Sue's husband (whom I guess would be Mr. Blue) I just don't get.
MichaelPW
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby MichaelPW » Sun May 18, 2008 6:38 am

applesnoranges wrote:It is mainly the line, "It was said to be cursed. So it turned out to be." that keeps ringing in my ears. He is saying that it turned out to be cursed because it was said to be cursed.


I don`t know if I translate it right, but I don`t translate it with "because". Rather it "sounds" to me like: "People talked about the movie and maybe about the reasons why it wasn't finished. Many people said that it was cursed. Now I - as Kingsley - say that it was really cursed from my point of view. And I say this with a slight sound of "fun", because I, of course, don`t believe in such superstitious things. And I see that Freddy supports such a non-belief."

But without it, then where to the Poland scenes come from? We seem to be seeing clips of the old movie but we don't see anyone showing them to us.


I don`t think that we see scenes from the old movie at all. What we see I think are reality extracts from the leads of 4 7.

I can't see any way of imagining that anyone worked for him.


To understand that people think that people work for the phantom one needs to broaden the concept of working somewhat I think. So done one will find the concept of following within it. And that people follow the phantom or followed the phantom, respectiveley, is quite obvious when you think about the scene in front of the shed(, for example).

At the shed, Gordy doesn't need to answer his questions.


There is no Gordy at the shed. The "Piotrek character" speaks to Uri. btw - The phantom is not named here. But I guess we all assume that he speaks about the phantom.

Also, since no one in the story is called "Smithy", and Lucas' character as Sue's husband can't create children, and there is a child called "Smithy's Son", I never understand why people often call this guy Smithy.


When the Dern characters and the Gruszka characters can be seen as one identity in a certain sense, it is easy to imagine that all the Lucas characters are one identity, too. So first there could be a "reproduction-problem" caused by several reasons and in the end all these reasons are excluded.
Carl
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby Carl » Sun May 18, 2008 2:02 pm

'...so it turned out to be..'
This is mildly ambiguous in English, the use of 'so' to mean either 'and' or 'thus', but I hear it as meaning 'It was said to be cursed. It is cursed.'
That Kingsley, though, I also feel is part of the effort to cause Nikki and Devon to drown in their roles. Of course, I suppose, many directors would not hesitate to do the same just to insure a good performance.
**Dunno the name of the guy at the shed, but nothing in the dialog indicates that he is the one Smithy works for, rather they probably both work for the man who has departed to the IE.
***'...no Smithy in the story...'
There's no Smithy in the end credits. In the story he is Sue's husband, the one who can't father children, who beats her up, who leaves to work in the circus.
It seems to me that the reunion of LG, Smithy and their son is that which might have been if the old film 4 7 was completed and if the principals in that production could have abandoned their spouses ( who, in the backstory that only Kingsley and Freddy give, murderd these actors, instead). Now that OHIBT hs been completed, and whatever happens thereafter has happened, whether in Nikki's mind or on some astral plane ( my wife very annoyingly ascribes each variant character as being from 'another dimension' ), now they are reunited in an apotheosis of completion. Or something.
I do not see much to support that the reunited trio is part of a scene from OHIBT, or that LG is now become Sue. Maybe i'll feel differently after I've seen the ending a couple more times. :?

OFF-TOPIC: Subtitles, in IE, are only in French ( one of my weaker languages to read, one I can not speak at all), but are very laconic, rarely giving any indiction of the verbatum dialog.
This is not limited to IE: on our rental copy of Youth Without Youth, the English subtitles are not even dialog, for the most part, but an odd synopsis of the scene taking place, with much historical background stuff about Romania, Bhudda, whatever the plot is about at that point.
BTW, I enjoyed this film. Lara is very appealing, Roth is okay , as is Ganz. A very Vonnegut-esque tale.
applesnoranges
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Sun May 18, 2008 11:54 pm

Carl wrote:'...so it turned out to be..'
This is mildly ambiguous in English, the use of 'so' to mean either 'and' or 'thus', but I hear it as meaning 'It was said to be cursed. It is cursed.'

Yes, I hear it somewhat like that, but Kingsley seems to be saying something that means more than one thing. When he says, "It was said to be cursed", it is not clear who said it. Maybe someone Freddy heard had said it. But the rest of the statement, "So it turned out to be.", means that when someone said it, it became cursed. "So", means "therefore" here (I think like the similarity of deshalb and also). But there seems to be a second layer of meaning here in that when Kingsley said, "So it turned out to be.", Kingsley himself has just said that it was cursed. Therefore, Kingsley is saying that it was cursed in order to make it cursed. Furthermore, because we have seen scenes in Poland which seem to be from a very old movie (which we know they are not because they are part of IE), we might assume that the unfinished film of which OHIBT is a remake happened a long time ago. But we are not required to think that. It could have been made just a few hours ago, by Kingsley himself. It may be that the whole thing just goes around in a circle.
That Kingsley, though, I also feel is part of the effort to cause Nikki and Devon to drown in their roles. Of course, I suppose, many directors would not hesitate to do the same just to insure a good performance.

That seems to be something to wonder about because the producer warns Devon of exactly the opposite; his belief in the stories possibly jeopardizing Nikki's performance. Devon is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
**Dunno the name of the guy at the shed, but nothing in the dialog indicates that he is the one Smithy works for, rather they probably both work for the man who has departed to the IE.

The name of the man is Gordy because that is what Lucas calls him and that is how Marek Zydowicz' character is credited. There is no "Uri". Gordy seems to me to be the supervisor of the Lucas character because of the way he treats him in both scenes, at the barbecue and at the shed.
There's no Smithy in the end credits. In the story he is Sue's husband, the one who can't father children, who beats her up, who leaves to work in the circus.

No one calls him that and no one in the credits is listed for playing the part. For me, the fact that the question, "Who is playing Smithy?" is never answered is a beautiful part of the construction of the story. "The man who lives here" is never named by Visitor #2.
I do not see much to support that the reunited trio is part of a scene from OHIBT, or that LG is now become Sue. Maybe i'll feel differently after I've seen the ending a couple more times. :?

Well that scene takes place after Kingsley is finished shooting his movie, but then after that we seem to return to something like the beginning of IE. I'm not sure if you were responding to something here, but the movie I see happening over and over and over again is IE and OHIBT is within it. As I see it, the different worlds we have been seeing Nikki and Lost Girl have become opened in the end, so that Nikki can to to the hotel room and Lost Girl can go to Smithy's House. It's as if the goal that started with seeing through the silk has been obtained.
OFF-TOPIC: Subtitles, in IE, are only in French ( one of my weaker languages to read, one I can not speak at all), but are very laconic, rarely giving any indiction of the verbatum dialog.

I'm about the same with French but the impression I got is that things are expressed very differently in French and English so they often had to write something else that would convey a similar meaning.
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jina
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby jina » Mon May 19, 2008 7:25 am

applesnoranges wrote:
Carl wrote:
That Kingsley, though, I also feel is part of the effort to cause Nikki and Devon to drown in their roles. Of course, I suppose, many directors would not hesitate to do the same just to insure a good performance.

That seems to be something to wonder about because the producer warns Devon of exactly the opposite; his belief in the stories possibly jeopardizing Nikki's performance. Devon is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.


what Carl says could be possible. the producer tries to keep Devon in the film because he's freaked out and he fears that there is a curse and he could be murdered like the previous protagonists.

but that doesn't explain why Kingsley, chooses to tell them about this curse.
applesnoranges
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Mon May 19, 2008 8:36 am

Jina: I didn't mean that what the producer said explained what Kingsley said. I just find it curious that he winds up his speech with "... and jeopardize Nikki's performance." Kingsley may have been talking about the curse to build a sense of drama around his project, but the producer seems to take the opposite approach, even though he has the same goal. He doesn't raise a concern about Devon possibly trying to get out of the contract; he's mainly thinking that Devon's fears will interfere with Nikki's performance. Perhaps Kingsley thought Devon's fears would have just the opposite effect. It doesn't seem easy to know whom to trust.
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jina
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby jina » Mon May 19, 2008 10:41 pm

oh, yes...i think i took it a bit too far about Devon leaving the film. :| :mrgreen:

it seems though that both producer and director don't care much about Nikki's problems.
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby Carl » Tue May 20, 2008 3:18 pm

I dunno but what the worry over Devon leaving the production might be part of the motivation for the Producer in that scene, the other motive being to convince Devon to allow Nikki to slide down into Sue, totally, by doing the same himself as Billy.

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