North Carolina accent?

Discussion of INLAND EMPIRE

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applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:12 pm

MichaelPW wrote:I wonder if the rabbit-like symbol on his black leather jacket is a rabbit shape or maybe a marihuana plant. Also wonder in how far the shadow of the camera man on the set is intended. Interesting detail this white T shirt. Maybe I will have the opportunity to see it in about two weeks. Imagine that normally it is strictly forbidden to wear private clothes during a professional shot, of course. So one more evidence for the flowing between reality and fiction.

I can't see the symbol clearly. Kingsley wears something similar around his neck. I didn't notice the shadow. The idea that he is dressed for the shooting is that maybe this T shirt was underneath the dress shirt of the costume. But now I found something confusing about this theory:

It appears that after Piotrek takes the gun, he is sent back into the movie not only to Smithy's house, as I had said before, but into Nikki's. Some imdb discussions have made me think this. "He's the most powerful guy around, there's not a thing he doesn't know." He seems to have exercised some power in the background to make Nikki get the part. That is why he is seen sneaking around on the stairway when she gets the call.

And according to this, then you are right that the stairways are related. The room of the séance was also upstairs.

So the idea would be that he made the whole thing happen as part of the plan to rescue Lost Girl. He went into the story as Piotrek, Nikki's husband, as the man in the green coat. He scared Nikki on the set and she ran into Smithy's house where she became trapped as Sue. Then he went into Smithy's house and planted the gun (as she is coming home with the bag of groceries).

So therefore, now, if he is not simply a jealous madman but carrying out a strategic plan, why would he have killed Devon? That would have no effect on the story at all.
btw - I read that David Lynch used his own house for shots. But I don`t know if that is true for former rabbit parts or for rabbit parts or more than the rabbit parts in Inland Empire. Very nice from him to have his fans a look into his house!

I would think not. I've read that his own house was used for Lost Highway (a "Frank Lloyd Wright house" on Mulholland Drive); they can't both be true. I think he built that Smithy's House the way he wanted it. He must have found the outside, some real Inland Empire house, then made a set to match it on the inside. There are scenes of him working on it in the bonus material.
Interestingly we don`t have a view of Smithie`s house when it turns real - we don`t see what "Sue" sees. At least at that time when it becomes reality. It`s different when "Sue" leaves to visit Billy and his family.

I don't know what you mean. When she enters, the view she sees is the same from then on, isn't it? I'm not sure the hallway remains the same but other people say that it does. What do you see changing?
The first picture of the Peter Lucas site on imdb. It seems that they plan the shooting of the scene in which "Piotrek" gets the gun.

I don't know what they are doing there but he said on the bonus material that he told someone in Poland what he wanted to do in the morning and that evening it was all together; actors, set, everything. I think he meant the séance scene.
From their points of view it also could be viewed as if she is one of them since long. Although she really looks like feeling sick, before she says "I`m a freak". Like if she were in a carousel of realities before, then realizing where she is now and then saying "Ok, I accept it (to play this reality role)".

Yes, it looks something like that here; they may be thinking that she was in the past what they are now and now is crazy. But these same girls were with her in the house when she was younger, looking just the same. So it seems that they are only visions of hers. This is why she can control them snapping their fingers.
This version of the monolog woman seems to be on the marketplace, not realizing another version of herself, but seeing a woman who we could name Doris. But the version of the monolog woman who follows the alley realizes another version of her. The woman following the alley don`t accept the version she sees. Probably she kills that version with a screwdriver. But only as that version which the woman on the marketplace sees. The version who follows the alley wants to have the access to the waiting room which will lead to the palace in the end. And she has the key word. I think we have a parallel to the "deep-level-Nikki-Lost Girl"-scene, when "Carolina" whispers (the secrets how to see?, the secrets how to come to Mr. K?, the secrets showing the exit?) something in her ear.

Aha! I had not noticed that the club was in the alley way. (Also, she dies in front of a store called "Star Market".) That follows. I'm not sure who you think kills the other version, the Dern or Ormond character, but if it is the Ormond character then everything fits. I wonder if there are clues to tell us which is which. The scenes must change quickly; maybe the backgrounds. But the one who snaps fingers and raises her hand with the screwdriver reveals the "LB" which has now changed orientation from upside down to right side up (from her view). So I would think that this is the version which follows the advice of Gruszka, Nikki. What confuses me then is that this same version appears to hand to the screwdriver to Ormond and then to be killed. I wonder if something can show us which is which; some thing to show where they are.

I recently often ask myself, whether there could be a meaning in the opposite of "Watch this move" = "Move this watch".

To me it sounds as if she just means that she is going to perform a magic trick. I don't know how this seems to the French but I like the expression in the translation, "Regardez moi faire!" (Literally in English this would be "Watch me do!"

i can't agree that this is canon. It is the mistake of the French translator.

It could be one cause for her sudden leaving. "I have told him so much...He said not many things...When there is a phone call, he speaks and speaks...Says "Think that it won`t last much longer now...Will come to the city"...Obviously he has better things to do than listen to me."

:roll:
It could be taken to "mean" all sorts of things, but that meaning was put there not by Lynch but by whoever made the translation mistake. The French translator heard a word in Polish and thought it was English, and so translated what it was thought to be in English, which it was not. I don't know what David Lynch thinks about this but Eugene Ionesco liked to have his works translated wrong; he thought it added something by making them even more strange.
It seems to be a quite magically process when she enters the way to the stairs. Transformation of her consciousness could take place here.

Yes but I think there is a way to describe just how it works that we haven't noticed yet. If "it had to do with the telling of time" and they (Mr. K., the rabbits, Janek) needed time to make it happen, then word may have been sent to the guard when to let her in. As if ... they needed to find a crazy woman who was about to die anyway so that a story could be made out of the crazy things she says and build Nikki's story from it. But then there is the question of whether that fits with her being Nikki after her death. Maybe we don't know what happened after her death; we saw the crazy woman die and then the scene cut to Nikki playing the part. But much of Nikki's story comes from what the woman heard before dying, "those who have a way with animals" etc. Kind of mixed up and somehow, it always seems to stay that way.
I don`t know who the woman on the marketplace is. She seems to be completely insane, "because" she doesn`t recognize another version of herself and experience being murdered by that another version of herself, "although" there is no murder in OHIBT. Maybe she commits suicide. After death she seems to be the same version who recognized another version of herself on the marketplace, who (first one) has a very conscious relationship to Lost Girl. Maybe Lost Girl is lost, because she was forced to sold herself by hypnosis.

That's what I'm trying to follow. Except that I don't see how one version of Dern's character can be thought to kill the other as a suicide because that is not what we see. We clearly see the two parts played by Dern and Ormond.
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:34 am

applesnoranges wrote:What do you see changing?


Suddenly the outside isn`t the same anymore. Suddenly it turns to a natural environment. It seems that Nikki thinks: "I have to examine that. So I will go out. One thing I will do there is to look at the house I`m in." And who would not be interested in whether the house changed. But we don`t see what Nikki sees when she goes out and looks to the house.
MichaelPW
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Postby MichaelPW » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:28 pm

applesnoranges wrote:I wonder if there are clues to tell us which is which. The scenes must change quickly; maybe the backgrounds.


I really don`t know why the version who follows the alley - who is probably Nikki - feels that someone follows her. The woman who enters the club and the woman with the screwdriver (Dern) seem to be in a different state, although I assume that they are the same. Probably the woman on the marketplace is Sue.

When we have the death scene the music and cameras thereafter suggest that the viewer should be surprised that it is a movie and not reality. The first time I watched IE I hadn`t expected that she`s in the making of OHIBT. She comes from Mr. K. Who would expect that Mr. K is in OHIBT?!

To me it sounds as if she just means that she is going to perform a magic trick.


As you wrote before snapping can be related to hypnosis. And I think it is more related to hypnosis than it is to magic.

The French translator heard a word in Polish and thought it was English, and so translated what it was thought to be in English, which it was not.


But what I wrote works without that last quote. Normally I would assume that the basis should be written. But the Japanese script suggest that it is not so. It seems that David Lynch has some things not under control. For example, if poisson is the French word for poison, then there are people who seem to understand nothing at all.

I don't know what David Lynch thinks about this but Eugene Ionesco liked to have his works translated wrong; he thought it added something by making them even more strange.


Oh, who`s Eugene Ionesco? :)

As if ... they needed to find a crazy woman who was about to die anyway so that a story could be made out of the crazy things she says and build Nikki's story from it.


I don`t know why the woman who enters the club and probably is Nikki is so frightened. Somehow the fear changed the "landlord". It seems that the fear went from Sue to Nikki. So maybe Nikki carries the fear from Sue to Mr. K. Also, later we have Nikki wearing blue.

But much of Nikki's story comes from what the woman heard before dying, "those who have a way with animals" etc.


Or: Much from what the woman hears before dying comes from Nikki`s story. We know from near-death-experiences that the brain probably displays important things that happened during life. I wonder what features comes from Vine. Hollywood could be viewed as a marketplace. So maybe Vine is behind the marketplace. Interstingly we have different races in the death scene: Afro-American, European-American and Asian. I wonder, if there`s a deep symbolic meaning in "She has a place there."

Today I watched the youtube-video you suggested. I already knowed it, but forgot that there are the M.M. things at the beginning. Somehow a strange behaviour from the moderator.

Recently I got the information that in Lodz is a very famous film academy.
applesnoranges
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Postby applesnoranges » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:54 am

MichaelPW wrote:When we have the death scene the music and cameras thereafter suggest that the viewer should be surprised that it is a movie and not reality. The first time I watched IE I hadn`t expected that she`s in the making of OHIBT. She comes from Mr. K. Who would expect that Mr. K is in OHIBT?!

It is all still spinning around when I think of it: somehow Mr. K. and his friends extracted something from what the woman said and used it to create the story of Sue for Nikki to perform, so that created a reflection. For example, maybe when the frightened one saw the Ormond character, she was stabbed and killed by her for some unknown reason. Then she went through the marketplace and died and after her death she saw her life as having been a movie performed by Nikki, whom she is now, and Nikki gets the part and goes through the whole thing and winds up there beside her on the street. I think it will continue to be confusing unless we know which Dern character is which.
As you wrote before snapping can be related to hypnosis. And I think it is more related to hypnosis than it is to magic.

I just meant something like that: she's happy with her discovery and is showing off a little.
But what I wrote works without that last quote.

OK, but I couldn't help thinking of the quote.
Normally I would assume that the basis should be written. But the Japanese script suggest that it is not so. It seems that David Lynch has some things not under control. For example, if poisson is the French word for poison, then there are people who seem to understand nothing at all.

Anyway, I think the whole point was that Mr. K. repeated something that had been said at the séance and that it doesn't matter what it was. That he says something in Polish stands out and draws attention to itself. So I think that the French translator didn't realize that. People talk on and on about what "it was red" means. I think it doesn't mean anything except that it was something that a rabbit said. The full movie Rabbits has more of that. As I remember, it came from a long, frightening song or poem by Suzie Rabbit. The meaning can't be deciphered in English because it is Rabbit-English, but I had the impression that a rabbit had been chased by a dog and bled to death trying to escape under a barbed wire fence. But that's just what I thought and anyone could think anything. And that's not in IE, just the words "red" and "czerwone". I don't think it means anything.
Oh, who`s Eugene Ionesco? :)

A surrealist playwright. I have not read or seen any of his plays but I read an interview with him once. The wiki url doesn't work in this forum for some reason, but just search the word, Ionesco and you'll see it.
I don`t know why the woman who enters the club and probably is Nikki is so frightened. Somehow the fear changed the "landlord". It seems that the fear went from Sue to Nikki. So maybe Nikki carries the fear from Sue to Mr. K. Also, later we have Nikki wearing blue.

Maybe she is just frightened of everything because she does not have the protection of a fully functioning mind. And then, yes, actors probably become infected by their characters to some degree and then have to recover. But it may not be Nikki's version of that woman who talks to Mr. K. but that woman herself. Or maybe both? The reason I suggested that she may have been killed on the street is that ... Mr. K. does not seem to come from the living world. Only someone who is already dead could see and talk to him. So he would be an avatar like the Blue Haired Lady from MD. He seems to be the only one other than Lost Girl who can see Jack Rabbit.
Or: Much from what the woman hears before dying comes from Nikki`s story. We know from near-death-experiences that the brain probably displays important things that happened during life.

I'm not too convinced about this idea because of how realistically it is filmed. But it does seem odd that the woman caring for her comes up with that stylized, poetic line, "No more blue tomorrows." When we as viewers hear that, something snaps and we remember, Oh! So at what point did it become a movie?
I wonder what features comes from Vine. Hollywood could be viewed as a marketplace. So maybe Vine is behind the marketplace.

I think the idea of "Hollywood and Vine" is meant that way. It is an old idea that got started somehow, it's kind of an expression invented to promote Hollywood and the film industry. I guess it is supposed to be the center of Hollywood. I remember seeing a TV show in the 50s where someone would interview people on the street at Hollywood and Vine. People there were supposed to be some special spectacle for everyone else to watch. So ... back to IE ... I guess it would be Nikki who would notice those street signs during a death scene, as well as the star of Dorothy Lamour.
Interstingly we have different races in the death scene: Afro-American, European-American and Asian. I wonder, if there`s a deep symbolic meaning in "She has a place there."

Something like that I guess. It seems to convey that this is the real world distinguished from the fake, all white world of the idea of "Hollywood".
Recently I got the information that in Lodz is a very famous film academy.

Maybe the idea of filming in Poland came from David Lynch knowing people there.
MichaelPW
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby MichaelPW » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:18 am

applesnoranges wrote:somehow Mr. K. and his friends extracted something from what the woman said and used it to create the story of Sue for Nikki to perform, so that created a reflection.


I don`t know what you exactly mean with reflection here. And it`s a question whether we know if we see friends of Mr. K within Inland Empire. It`s also a question if Mr. K exctracted something from her. It could be that he gives her something. Or it could be a combination of giving and extracting. Maybe Sue and Nikki haven`t anything to do with Mr. K. I assume that the monolog woman is dead and that we see the idea of a deeper level of consciousness. A level on which the dead soul knows things from reality as someone selling lucky watches, for example. And a level on which the dead soul still knows how "she" reacted to such offers in the former life.

For example, maybe when the frightened one saw the Ormond character, she was stabbed and killed by her for some unknown reason.


It`s really hard to differentiate who is frightened and who is not. It changes over time for different individuals. At least it seems so. As the wife of Billy it could be jealousy as a reason. But I assume it is probably more the consequence of the curse. The Ormond character seems to be cursed, doesn`t she? So that could mean that she cannot do otherwise. Another possibilty would be that there isn`t a murder at all. Nikki has everything. There is no need for an affair. So there would be no "need" for a murder. The murder we see could be "just" some thoughts or a dream by Sue (a fictional character). Imagining bad consequences by Nikki would be another possibility.

I just meant something like that: she's happy with her discovery and is showing off a little.


I have seen MTTH now. It was very interesting to see all the scenes you and TMM already described realized into a movie. Interestingly there was a LB on "her" hand already while talking to Mr. K. So that seems not to be an end-result of her conversation with him. btw - the only scene I didn`t know was that with the flying UFO. And I don`t know what the reason is, but somehow this I experienced that scene as a quite sick one. Maybe it was a high alcohol level in my veins (from wine) or maybe it shall be like that. Maybe it was both. I asked myself what should that mean. And after a while I thought: Again they are representations of her thoughts. She thinks about children she would like to have, but hasn`t. Probably she would like to have children. But there isn`t a suitable environment and a fertile husband. Also two other children I experienced as quite sick: The scene with the street girls doing something with cigarettes ("playing" with them somehow like childs) and the way one is happy about the fifty Euro. I wonder how realistic these scenes are. And the scene with "her" on the phone wearing sun glasses. Two more reasons of experiencing it so could be the somehow darker colours and the non-possibilty for subtitles. I misunderstood you about the end. Thought that "Dern" takes a walk. But it is "Ormond". It`s a nice end.

I think it doesn't mean anything except that it was something that a rabbit said.


Saw Lynch 2 now and liked it very much. It seems that it has a meaning for David Lynch that "she" wears a blue robe and lays it down on a red chair. More and more I believe in inert meanings. I don`t know if I understood it right, but I think David Lynch made a quite good joke when talking to "Marylin" in the end. Think that he says: "And our daughter, Laura Dern, ..." :lol: Also liked it very much how he sat there listening to music and how he filmed the "Nikki on the street-scene". And how he talks to Laura Dern. And how the other people look when he "makes her ready" with "blood". And how he`s satisified with the two rooms and how he plans things about the movie. This documentary seems to be also a big publicity for Lynch 1 as we have primarily have the making of of the first and last 10 minutes. That suggests: In Lynch 1 there are all the minutes in between. btw - Are you sure that you have Lynch 2 and not Lynch 1?. Because I didn`t see the scene in front of Deuce 40. Maybe I missed it.

The full movie Rabbits has more of that.


I wonder whether the movie is available within Germany. Will check that.

Only someone who is already dead could see and talk to him. So he would be an avatar like the Blue Haired Lady from MD. He seems to be the only one other than Lost Girl who can see Jack Rabbit.


Yes, I assume that content of the first sentence, as well. Don`t know exactly what an avatar is and I don`t know why you see a parallel to the Blue Haired Lady. We don`t know if he can see him. Yes, as "Laura Dern" yes. But we don`t know whether Mr. K sees what we see - when Jack Rabbit sits down.

But it does seem odd that the woman caring for her comes up with that stylized, poetic line, "No more blue tomorrows."


Yes, there`s a clear connection to the garden scene.

When we as viewers hear that, something snaps and we remember, Oh! So at what point did it become a movie?


Yes, maybe at that point.

So ... back to IE ... I guess it would be Nikki who would notice those street signs during a death scene, as well as the star of Dorothy Lamour.


Thank you for those informations about Vine. I didn`t know that. Yes, Nikki would notice it - at least in combination with such thoughts.

Maybe the idea of filming in Poland came from David Lynch knowing people there.


Maybe yes. I saw the Mysteries of Love documentary now. He says that he was in Salzburg for a short time and feared there that that would be no good place for inspiration. After a short while he went to Philadelphia what was a quite better place for him as he said. Interestingly there is a real place called Lumberton in North Carolina.
applesnoranges
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:51 pm

MichaelPW wrote:
applesnoranges wrote:somehow Mr. K. and his friends extracted something from what the woman said and used it to create the story of Sue for Nikki to perform, so that created a reflection.

I don`t know what you exactly mean with reflection here. And it`s a question whether we know if we see friends of Mr. K within Inland Empire. It`s also a question if Mr. K exctracted something from her. It could be that he gives her something. Or it could be a combination of giving and extracting. Maybe Sue and Nikki haven`t anything to do with Mr. K. I assume that the monolog woman is dead and that we see the idea of a deeper level of consciousness. A level on which the dead soul knows things from reality as someone selling lucky watches, for example. And a level on which the dead soul still knows how "she" reacted to such offers in the former life.

I was thinking of it as: Suppose the woman in the monolog is some other person separate from Sue, Nikki, and Lost Girl. She has her own life on his sister's back porch etc. Then this person goes to talk to Mr. K. about her life. I can't distinguish if she is alive or dead because, the woman pointing to go through the red curtains indicates that she is either dead or dreaming or in some way this is not real life. But on the other hand, he seems to be waiting until it is time for her to die (in his phone conversation). So she goes back onto the street and is killed but then finds herself still conscious and to have the identity of Nikki Grace who has just played the story of herself as someone else, Sue Blue. This is who we saw at the beginning becoming mixed up in Sue's life and tragedy, then becoming an older version of Sue talking to Mr. K. and dying. This is the person who meets the real person whose life she is playing on the street. That's what I was calling a reflection. It doesn't seem to match really with the mention of the little boy who caused a reflection though; I just thought it was a good expression.

So when I mentioned Mr. K.'s friends, I meant the rabbits and Janek. All of them seem to be trying to free Lost Girl and are arranging all this for this purpose. When I said that they "extracted" something from what she said, I meant that they made their story out of what she said, but only out of certain things that she said, all about her husband planning something, the drawer, etc. This woman didn't say or know anything about Billy and Doris or any of the OHIBT stuff; Mr. K. etc. made all that up as a story for Nikki to play. So there are two versions of the monolog woman, the woman Nikki plays according to their script and another one who is someone else"”the one who gouged a man's eye out etc.

So maybe ". A level on which the dead soul knows things from reality as someone selling lucky watches, for example. And a level on which the dead soul still knows how "she" reacted to such offers in the former life." pertains to the version portrayed by Nikki because Nikki is the one contacted by Lost Girl through the watch and silk etc.
It`s really hard to differentiate who is frightened and who is not. It changes over time for different individuals. At least it seems so. As the wife of Billy it could be jealousy as a reason. But I assume it is probably more the consequence of the curse. The Ormond character seems to be cursed, doesn`t she? So that could mean that she cannot do otherwise.

She said that she'd been hypnotized and that she didn't know who she would kill. The screwdriver stuck into herself, though, makes this seem to be a dream. In any case, the woman on the street seems to be the same woman in the station and not necessarily Billy's wife.[/quote]
Another possibilty would be that there isn`t a murder at all. Nikki has everything. There is no need for an affair. So there would be no "need" for a murder. The murder we see could be "just" some thoughts or a dream by Sue (a fictional character). Imagining bad consequences by Nikki would be another possibility.

Yes and maybe that is what we see at the end as she continues turning her head: she sees herself happy and contented. The thing that has always seemed odd about this is that she is said to be a woman in trouble and who owes on an unpaid debt, and when she winds up as the emotionally distraught Sue in the room with girls with flashlights, there seem to be no reason for it! The "reason" seems to be applied to her in the course of the story because it is really Lost Girl who is in trouble and who owes on the debt. Again, we see this in Lynch: Jeffery gets an idea to hide in Dorothy's apartment. Why? We would say in English, "something just got into him" to make him do that. Same with Betty climbing in the window. In both cases the other person tells them no, but Lynch wants his characters to do that. That wanting on the part of David Lynch is what I think is the real phantom. It's just there altering the happy story; it's his realism that can't stand a false story. So that must have been the origin of the idea of the phantom; someone in the story to account for that compulsive drive to do something that will lead to bad results. The same could be said of Bob in Twin Peaks. Here is this happy town full of good people but "something just gets into them."

I've been meaning to mention too, that though people talk a lot about "the curse" in IE, there is no curse mentioned.
I have seen MTTH now. It was very interesting to see all the scenes you and TMM already described realized into a movie. Interestingly there was a LB on "her" hand already while talking to Mr. K. So that seems not to be an end-result of her conversation with him.

I'm pretty sure that is in the feature too; she only has the LB when talking to Mr. K.
btw - the only scene I didn`t know was that with the flying UFO. And I don`t know what the reason is, but somehow this I experienced that scene as a quite sick one. Maybe it was a high alcohol level in my veins (from wine) or maybe it shall be like that. Maybe it was both. I asked myself what should that mean. And after a while I thought: Again they are representations of her thoughts. She thinks about children she would like to have, but hasn`t. Probably she would like to have children. But there isn`t a suitable environment and a fertile husband.

I saw that as her thoughts, yes, but their materialization means that she is becoming mentally ill herself. She seems to experience them first in dreams, then they seem to be there in waking life (she hears something, then imagines what she hears). I didn't notice the connection to their childlike nature, but what you say seems right. They are like impulsive, misbehaving children who can only think of playing.
Also two other children I experienced as quite sick: The scene with the street girls doing something with cigarettes ("playing" with them somehow like childs) and the way one is happy about the fifty Euro. I wonder how realistic these scenes are.

It's certainly horrifying to see them there. It is filmed as if a scene out of the real lives of someone. It's like the worst kind of failure that can happen in someone's life. I notice in MTTH a number of scenes of people from from the feature taken out of context. Somehow characters come into being and then become real, and in MTTH we see them as completely real. Dern talking about her sister and Kiddo, these street girls, Sue and her husband at home arguing....
Are you sure that you have Lynch 2 and not Lynch 1?. Because I didn`t see the scene in front of Deuce 40. Maybe I missed it.

I don't remember that scene. But in a feature called "stories" which is just him talking to the camera, he mentions going to a club for Dennis Hopper's birthday party and liking the show very much. He tells a number of stories, about making Rabbits, about Bucky J., etc. It's a different feature from the one with scenes of him making the movie.
The full movie Rabbits has more of that.

I wonder whether the movie is available within Germany. Will check that.

I have read that it is unavailable everywhere. I got a copy from the Easter Bunny though. It came in the mail.

Yes, I assume that content of the first sentence, as well. Don`t know exactly what an avatar is and I don`t know why you see a parallel to the Blue Haired Lady. We don`t know if he can see him. Yes, as "Laura Dern" yes. But we don`t know whether Mr. K sees what we see - when Jack Rabbit sits down.

Why I say that about the blue haired lady is something I could only explain by going through all of how I see MD which is another whole topic. Most people don't agree. But I think she intervenes in the story of MD as Mr. K. intervenes in this story. I don't know what an avatar is either except from definitions I've read on the web; some part of something Divine which becomes physical and human. Well, we don't know that Mr. K. is even there when Jack Rabbit sits down, but logically he would be there and not in the bathroom or something. Jack is there for some reason.

But it does seem odd that the woman caring for her comes up with that stylized, poetic line, "No more blue tomorrows."

Yes, there`s a clear connection to the garden scene.

It would be easier to "understand" if the street woman were seen as fantasy and unreal, but she isn't; she seems very real. So it looks as if she hears that being said and in her dying moments has a dream of having been Nikki playing Sue in OHIBT, the woman with a hole torn in her, the one who was good with animals, etc. But it's not that simple.
When we as viewers hear that, something snaps and we remember, Oh! So at what point did it become a movie?

Yes, maybe at that point.

Yes maybe so but ... it doesn't seem so. Everything seems the same clear up until she dies and then we see Kingsley and the world of OHIBT etc. The only way I can see it as one thing to describe is that this is the real and separate woman's death and that the street woman just really does have a holy and poetic nature. Yet, we just saw the Dern character noticing Hollywood and Vine. We could say that is because Nikki notices that and Nikki notices the star of Dorothy Lamour, but maybe we have to say that these things are part of what the story of Nikki was made from; they were really there. And Nikki only appears after her death. But then, who snapped her fingers magically? It's hard to untangle or maybe impossible.
Maybe yes. I saw the Mysteries of Love documentary now. He says that he was in Salzburg for a short time and feared there that that would be no good place for inspiration. After a short while he went to Philadelphia what was a quite better place for him as he said. Interestingly there is a real place called Lumberton in North Carolina.
[/quote]
Hmmm ... Carolina seems to be one of his favorite names too. Agent Cooper's girlfriend was named Caroline.
MichaelPW
Posts: 215
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:48 am
Location: Germany

Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby MichaelPW » Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:58 pm

applesnoranges wrote:So she goes back onto the street and is killed but then finds herself still conscious and to have the identity of Nikki Grace who has just played the story of herself as someone else, Sue Blue.


Can we consider Smithie`s house as brickhouse? I`m not sure. But I like those intense probably meaningful sentences by "her" in MTTH: "I crossed the line...and did not recognize this street... ." Also how Dern walks in front of that other house is very impressive. However, it seems that to Nikki Grace happens what happens to Sue Blue. With the exception that Nikki Grace starts an affair with someone who seems to be on a lower social level than she is and Sue Blue starts an affair with someone who seems to be on a higher social level than she is. The one who could fall deeper could be Nikki Grace. But on the reality level everyone could fall till death.

This is who we saw at the beginning becoming mixed up in Sue's life and tragedy, then becoming an older version of Sue talking to Mr. K. and dying. This is the person who meets the real person whose life she is playing on the street. That's what I was calling a reflection.


I don`t know what you mean.

So when I mentioned Mr. K.'s friends, I meant the rabbits and Janek. All of them seem to be trying to free Lost Girl and are arranging all this for this purpose.


Yes, I thought that you meant that. But we can`t be sure about who is on the other side of the phone. I`m not sure whether they all try to free Lost Girl. The men seem to be interested in spiritism. It seems that they discovered a spirit who wanted to see someone. They might have thought that it would be a good idea to have the spirit its will to learn more about that spirit. Janek is clearly against the solution the man with the pistol suggests.

When I said that they "extracted" something from what she said, I meant that they made their story out of what she said, but only out of certain things that she said, all about her husband planning something, the drawer, etc.


And that story...would be that something that is real or more just ideas of them?

This woman didn't say or know anything about Billy and Doris or any of the OHIBT stuff; Mr. K. etc. made all that up as a story for Nikki to play.


And how did they get that story into reality? We would have to assume that it came about several detours to Nikki, wouldn`t we? Baltic region, gypsy folk tale, two deaths in a production of a movie. Why wouldn`t they have just planted the ideas into the director called Kingsley without those former real happenings?

So there are two versions of the monolog woman, the woman Nikki plays according to their script and another one who is someone else"”the one who gouged a man's eye out etc.


It`s an interesting idea, but besides the "problem" with that I wrote above there`s also the possibilty that beings like Mr. K are creative enough to create such a story without the help of the content of the monolog`s life.

So maybe ". A level on which the dead soul knows things from reality as someone selling lucky watches, for example. And a level on which the dead soul still knows how "she" reacted to such offers in the former life." pertains to the version portrayed by Nikki because Nikki is the one contacted by Lost Girl through the watch and silk etc.


I described features of the monolog woman. But when they took features of her, they could also be features of Sue. However, what the phantom says about decisions is probably right. It`s everyones own decision to live with good or bad luck ("at least" in a certain philosophy). A phantom (something that is hardly there) could be a good scapegoat to attribute the reasons of the quality of one`s own life to something/someone other. Maybe someone who does not attribute in that way will have the chance to get access to the "dancing hall" (palace).

In any case, the woman on the street seems to be the same woman in the station and not necessarily Billy's wife.


Nevertheless there`s a connection between the woman in the station and Billy`s wife as there`s something like a flashback of Billy`s wife to that station.

The "reason" seems to be applied to her in the course of the story because it is really Lost Girl who is in trouble and who owes on the debt.


There are now some reasons that "Dern" and "Gruszka" are one identity: Who`s the first familiar one to one`s own? Probably oneself. So when "Dern" opens her eyes in that deep level of consciousness and sees "Gruszka" it is probably herself. When "Dern" was 47 in 1966, then she could be "Gruszka" in 1939. The way "they look in each other eyes" after the death scene suggests one identity as well. That "Dern" disappears when she kisses "Gruszka" suggests one identity, too.

Again, we see this in Lynch: Jeffery gets an idea to hide in Dorothy's apartment. Why? We would say in English, "something just got into him" to make him do that. Same with Betty climbing in the window. In both cases the other person tells them no, but Lynch wants his characters to do that. That wanting on the part of David Lynch is what I think is the real phantom. It's just there altering the happy story; it's his realism that can't stand a false story. So that must have been the origin of the idea of the phantom; someone in the story to account for that compulsive drive to do something that will lead to bad results. The same could be said of Bob in Twin Peaks. Here is this happy town full of good people but "something just gets into them."


Yes, it`s a pattern. And probably it`s a pattern that reflects reality in a good way.

I watched Blue Velvet the first time in English and that was good in my view for the voices of Jeffery and "Dern". In German I really like and liked the word "Tour" instead of ride and the way Ben talks. But I asked myself if we hear David Lynch one time when "Dern" has a call with the police. Jeffery seems to feel bad about what he has done with "the singer". And reality seems to be unreal with that artificial bird in the end.

Betty seems constantly to do something against the will of "Rita". Do you think that the magician in Silencio takes the soul of Betty? It seems so. I discovered that only during the last time I watched it. The ten hints didn`t help me much: I don`t know what those two hints in the beginning could be. Ok, now I know that that certain movie is "Silvia North Story", that the aunt of Betty isn`t probably in Canada, but that Diane came from Canada, that Coco calls someone "Winkies", that there`s a blue key on the table that is probably the hint that Camilla is dead and that someone calls Diane in the near of the beginning of the movie, but, for example, I don`t have an idea what David Lynch means with "Observe exactly the happenings in the surroundings of the man who`s behind Winkies".

Not everyone in TP seems to be "good". There are the profit-greeding, whore-house owners and visitors Horne, the daughter who finds a murder in the town as something exciting and Leo who beats his wife, for example. But I know what you mean. The later wife of David Lynch says in the Mysteries of Love that David Lynch and his brother saw a naked woman one day who indicated that something very bad happened. There`s a connection to the naked singer in the end of Blue Velvet and the one who comes over the bridge in Twin Peaks.

It`s an old story. The "fight" between "good" and "evil".

I've been meaning to mention too, that though people talk a lot about "the curse" in IE, there is no curse mentioned.


Kingsley says: "It was said to be cursed."

I'm pretty sure that is in the feature too; she only has the LB when talking to Mr. K.


Never in such a clearness when she talks about the one selling watches again. That probably is no coincidence. And "LB" and "bad luck" are in the same mode, while for example "the existence of a light bulb" and "LB" aren`t in the same mode.

It's certainly horrifying to see them there. It is filmed as if a scene out of the real lives of someone. It's like the worst kind of failure that can happen in someone's life.


Nevertheless I`m now fascinated by the fact that David Lynch could catch some emotions very clearly. The way the one in pink can`t stand the situation anymore and shouts to the others, for example. Or how she shows the others that the curly one was taken by someone. Or her dependence to the curly one, after she destroyed her drink. And - in general - how the scene begins. I mean how something falls down in that industrial environment (before the scene begins). Or the way one says that "we take dollars" there.

btw - after the scene in which Julia Ormond walks in the middle of the night through California (great!!!), there`s an end scene with Laura Dern at the left and the picture changes in a certain way. Somewhere from I now such an end, but I don`t now where from.

I have read that it is unavailable everywhere. I got a copy from the Easter Bunny though. It came in the mail.


Would you send me a copy, too? I could lend you one of my movies with IE actors I mentioned in return for that (I`m not able to copy movies).

Thank you for that link with the "audio-content". Will look that on Monday.

Well, we don't know that Mr. K. is even there when Jack Rabbit sits down, but logically he would be there and not in the bathroom or something. Jack is there for some reason.


I think now that the colour "of" Jack suggests that he`s Mr. K.

So it looks as if she hears that being said and in her dying moments has a dream of having been Nikki playing Sue in OHIBT, the woman with a hole torn in her, the one who was good with animals, etc.


The human brain probably isn`t able to dream while it is dying I guess.
applesnoranges
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:18 am

MichaelPW wrote:Can we consider Smithie`s house as brickhouse? I`m not sure.

I don't remember if it is brick when we see it in the dark on the set but I don't think so and it wouldn't mean anything to me for Visitor #1 to be in Smithy's House. But I wonder if it could be related to "book house" as in Twin Peaks "The Book House Boys". I don't remember the story but someone analyzed that at the time as a pun on a word for some ancient secret society of warriors or something. Something like "Bukaus" (I've forgotten the spelling). I wish I could remember it, because the three men who become rabbits always reminded me of The Book House Boys, a vigilante society which has always been there in Twin Peaks guarding against the evil in the woods.
But I like those intense probably meaningful sentences by "her" in MTTH: "I crossed the line...and did not recognize this street... ." Also how Dern walks in front of that other house is very impressive.

Yes it's like a trip to a carnival maze every time.
However, it seems that to Nikki Grace happens what happens to Sue Blue. With the exception that Nikki Grace starts an affair with someone who seems to be on a lower social level than she is and Sue Blue starts an affair with someone who seems to be on a higher social level than she is. The one who could fall deeper could be Nikki Grace. But on the reality level everyone could fall till death.

I don't see it that way. What we actually see is that Nikki has an affair with Billy but she thinks he is Devon and Billy thinks she is Sue. Nikki does not get pregnant or any of the rest of it. She may be residing inside Sue, but all that happens to Sue.
This is who we saw at the beginning becoming mixed up in Sue's life and tragedy, then becoming an older version of Sue talking to Mr. K. and dying. This is the person who meets the real person whose life she is playing on the street. That's what I was calling a reflection.

I don`t know what you mean.

The theory with which I am experimenting here is: Suppose that Mr. K. etc. are looking for someone who is going to die soon because they need for someone to reincarnate as Nikki Grace so that she can play the part of Sue Blue. This story of Sue Blue's helps Lost Girl get out of the trouble she is in because it pays her unpaid bill. This is seeing Nikki as a Bodhissatva; assigned that role from birth by Visitor #1. So, what I am trying out here is the idea that this Nikki Grace whom we see after the filming of OHIBT is the same one who is the reincarnation of the woman who died in front of the Star Market. So, after she goes through the whole story we just saw since Visitor #1 pointed to the couch ends up on the street because that is how the story goes. However, when she gets there, the real woman whose part she is playing is there also. That one goes to the marketplace and Nikki's version goes to Mr. K. It may not work and I may change my mind about it, but that is what I am trying to look at.

So when I mentioned Mr. K.'s friends, I meant the rabbits and Janek. All of them seem to be trying to free Lost Girl and are arranging all this for this purpose.

Yes, I thought that you meant that. But we can`t be sure about who is on the other side of the phone. I`m not sure whether they all try to free Lost Girl. The men seem to be interested in spiritism. It seems that they discovered a spirit who wanted to see someone. They might have thought that it would be a good idea to have the spirit its will to learn more about that spirit. Janek is clearly against the solution the man with the pistol suggests.

Well as you know, I don't agree about Janek. This all comes from your assumption that when he says, "Let's go." before the gun is picked up that he means they should go without the gun. But it equally could mean, "You've been given the gun now, so let's go." And this interpretation seems to me to lead to the explanation of how the gun got into the drawer etc. As for who is on the other side of the phone, that's true, we don't know. But whoever it is seems to be part of Mr. K.'s plan. Maybe he is talking to Jack Rabbit because Jack is the one who told him that "Czerewone" was said at the séance. But who the men are, yes, it seems that they are old wise men who are experienced in occult matters and that they heard a voice from beyond and decided to try to help her.
When I said that they "extracted" something from what she said, I meant that they made their story out of what she said, but only out of certain things that she said, all about her husband planning something, the drawer, etc.

And that story...would be that something that is real or more just ideas of them?
It would be like anyone making a story out of something they heard. That's what David Lynch did. He wrote the monolog and Laura Dern performed it, then he started to see how it would relate to the IE story, but only parts of it relate. So that's what Mr. K. did, because Mr. K. could be Mr. Kubrick working with David Lynch on the other side. http://miamiherald.typepad.com/photos/u ... rick_1.jpg
This woman didn't say or know anything about Billy and Doris or any of the OHIBT stuff; Mr. K. etc. made all that up as a story for Nikki to play.

And how did they get that story into reality? We would have to assume that it came about several detours to Nikki, wouldn`t we? Baltic region, gypsy folk tale, two deaths in a production of a movie. Why wouldn`t they have just planted the ideas into the director called Kingsley without those former real happenings?

Kingsley could have invented all the stuff about the gypsy folk tale and Billy and Doris are in the OHIBT script. This is all in the story laid out by Visitor #1 (who may be Jack Rabbit), and Kingsley (who may be one of the other rabbits and Freddy the third) just repeats the story of the gypsy folk tale.
So there are two versions of the monolog woman, the woman Nikki plays according to their script and another one who is someone else"”the one who gouged a man's eye out etc.

It`s an interesting idea, but besides the "problem" with that I wrote above there`s also the possibilty that beings like Mr. K are creative enough to create such a story without the help of the content of the monolog`s life.

But he needs a Bodhissatva. He needs someone to help Lost Girl. So, as this woman is dying, she crosses Hollywood and Vine, which reminds her of movie making, hears the stories people around her are telling, and has some of her own stories in her mind also. So she becomes something made of all these things.
I described features of the monolog woman. But when they took features of her, they could also be features of Sue. However, what the phantom says about decisions is probably right. It`s everyones own decision to live with good or bad luck ("at least" in a certain philosophy). A phantom (something that is hardly there) could be a good scapegoat to attribute the reasons of the quality of one`s own life to something/someone other. Maybe someone who does not attribute in that way will have the chance to get access to the "dancing hall" (palace).

Yes. I showed IE to someone who had never seen David Lynch, because she is a TM person. When the phantom said, "Nothing can happen unless you will it.", my friend said, "Yes, that's right!" It seems to me that the phantom in that scene very much resembles a guru in an ashram. So much of what he says is true, but he is a fake with a bad heart. But yes, from her point of view, it could e a way of saying to herself that her mistakes were not her fault. That in itself leads to failure.
In any case, the woman on the street seems to be the same woman in the station and not necessarily Billy's wife.

Nevertheless there`s a connection between the woman in the station and Billy`s wife as there`s something like a flashback of Billy`s wife to that station.

Yes, of course. But a way of seeing that is that Nikki went over there as Sue to cause trouble deliberately, to tempt the phantom into the American story. So Sue acts crazy and provokes Doris and then we see the scene in the station, not because either of them is remembering something from their own lives but because Nikki remembers that it was part of the same movie that we just saw. In other words, she becomes aware of the movie she is in and manipulates it in that way because she has just had a conference with Lost Girl through the silk. So she brings the phantom into the American story by the inappropriate behavior of Sue. The phantom chases her into the American story because he knows she is trying to free Lost Girl. What he doesn't know is that the gun has been put in the drawer, but anyway, by the time he gets to Smithy's House, Nikki already has the gun. Bang!
There are now some reasons that "Dern" and "Gruszka" are one identity: Who`s the first familiar one to one`s own? Probably oneself. So when "Dern" opens her eyes in that deep level of consciousness and sees "Gruszka" it is probably herself. When "Dern" was 47 in 1966, then she could be "Gruszka" in 1939. The way "they look in each other eyes" after the death scene suggests one identity as well. That "Dern" disappears when she kisses "Gruszka" suggests one identity, too.

Yes, it is, after all, the story of "a woman in trouble", but I'm not sure yet how to describe that. It seems that they are parts of the same person somehow but Nikki helps the part that needs help. I don't know yet how to say it.
I watched Blue Velvet the first time in English and that was good in my view for the voices of Jeffery and "Dern". In German I really like and liked the word "Tour" instead of ride and the way Ben talks. But I asked myself if we hear David Lynch one time when "Dern" has a call with the police. Jeffery seems to feel bad about what he has done with "the singer". And reality seems to be unreal with that artificial bird in the end.

I haven't seen it for a while. "Ride" is sort of a biker word (e.g. the movie, "Easy Rider"). Also it is an expression in English. To take someone for a ride is to mislead them or swindle them. So the word has all those evil things associated with it.
Betty seems constantly to do something against the will of "Rita". Do you think that the magician in Silencio takes the soul of Betty? It seems so. I discovered that only during the last time I watched it. The ten hints didn`t help me much: I don`t know what those two hints in the beginning could be. Ok, now I know that that certain movie is "Silvia North Story", that the aunt of Betty isn`t probably in Canada, but that Diane came from Canada, that Coco calls someone "Winkies", that there`s a blue key on the table that is probably the hint that Camilla is dead and that someone calls Diane in the near of the beginning of the movie, but, for example, I don`t have an idea what David Lynch means with "Observe exactly the happenings in the surroundings of the man who`s behind Winkies".

This all belongs in a forum for MD. My view of it is different from most people's. The last clue seems to mean that death is associated with those appearances. Dan thinks that there is a man behind Winkies but we can see for ourselves that there is a woman there. He thinks that this "man" is "the one who's doing it". Doing what? Aunt Ruth looks in after the blue box falls and is dressed exactly the same as when we saw her take her keys from the table, so, from her point of view, no three days has passed, nobody was ever in her house, there was no robe on the bed with a note on it, etc. None of it ever happened except in the experience of Betty and Rita. I never thought of the magician taking Betty's soul but in a way you could say so. He becomes a devil as she sees what is in store for Diane. It seems to me more to show what she is realizing about herself, that she is Diane and that she tried to have the woman beside her killed. They both realize that they are dead and they are sorry for how they treated each other. At the beginning, and again not many agree with me, before the credits end, we are introduced to the three characters who dream the first part of the movie: Betty from the dance contest, Rita from the accident, and the person sinking into the pink pillow: the blonde Camilla.
Not everyone in TP seems to be "good". There are the profit-greeding, whore-house owners and visitors Horne, the daughter who finds a murder in the town as something exciting and Leo who beats his wife, for example. But I know what you mean. The later wife of David Lynch says in the Mysteries of Love that David Lynch and his brother saw a naked woman one day who indicated that something very bad happened. There`s a connection to the naked singer in the end of Blue Velvet and the one who comes over the bridge in Twin Peaks.

Right, I didn't mean everyone was good. It is just that we see the forces of love working against evil in TP. btw: I think Audrey is more complex than that: She is supposed to be an immature rich child, so she expresses her tensions in that way, and then as the series moves on, she becomes more mature and responsible. I think much of this didn't come across because Sherilyn Fenn ( http://cvc.iespana.es/fennx.htm ) didn't seem very childlike and seemed to grow up very quickly in a few weeks. But anyway, she doesn't strike me as an evil character.
Kingsley says: "It was said to be cursed."

I never understood that! It sounded like, "It was set to be cast." and I never understood why he said that. Now I see. He has an accent which is ... a little like a British accent but I think it is maybe a special accent that actors acquire for themselves after a while. But it's mostly a British sound. Something like, "It was said to be caersed."
Nevertheless I`m now fascinated by the fact that David Lynch could catch some emotions very clearly. The way the one in pink can`t stand the situation anymore and shouts to the others, for example. Or how she shows the others that the curly one was taken by someone. Or her dependence to the curly one, after she destroyed her drink. And - in general - how the scene begins. I mean how something falls down in that industrial environment (before the scene begins). Or the way one says that "we take dollars" there.

It's as if he had the characters and had an idea who they were supposed to be and then decided to let them explore the full depth of what it would be like to see someone like that. They are like Les Enfants Terribles. Animal children with no orientation to humanity.
btw - after the scene in which Julia Ormond walks in the middle of the night through California (great!!!), there`s an end scene with Laura Dern at the left and the picture changes in a certain way. Somewhere from I now such an end, but I don`t now where from.

I don't know what to make of that scene except that it shows those girls are always with her, not matter what her age.
Would you send me a copy, too? I could lend you one of my movies with IE actors I mentioned in return for that (I`m not able to copy movies).

OK send me a PM with an address. I also have another interesting one.
I think now that the colour "of" Jack suggests that he`s Mr. K.

Well let's see. He sits on the client's side of the table. He told Mr. K. that they found Lost Girl who needed help and is sorry for whatever mistakes she made and how the word, Czerwone, was repeated at the séance, and Mr. K. lays out the plan to have someone reincarnate as Nikki Grace to save her. That's my argument. Yours is the color of his suit. The phantom and Piotrek have darks suits too. Hmmm. I wonder what a judge would rule if we presented our arguments in court. :lol:
The human brain probably isn`t able to dream while it is dying I guess.

Well it's an old story that it is, that it is able to experience eternity. That's how it is in the movies anyway. And studies of "after life experiences" seem to bear that out. People see the white light etc.
MichaelPW
Posts: 215
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Location: Germany

Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby MichaelPW » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:59 am

applesnoranges wrote:I don't remember if it is brick when we see it in the dark on the set but I don't think so and it wouldn't mean anything to me for Visitor #1 to be in Smithy's House.


Can one see from the outside if a house is made of brick? Brick is something different from Clinker brick I think. Probably most houses are made of brick, or? So when Nikki says "I crossed the line and I didn`t recognize this street" that could mean that she left her house and went to the brick house. Visitor 1 probably comes from the rabbit room and not from the brick house.

Suppose that Mr. K. etc. are looking for someone who is going to die soon because they need for someone to reincarnate as Nikki Grace so that she can play the part of Sue Blue.


I don`t think that there is someone like Mr. K within reincarnation philosophies. It seems that Mr. K is looking for the phantom and that he can conclude its presence by the things the monolog woman says.

This story of Sue Blue's helps Lost Girl get out of the trouble she is in because it pays her unpaid bill.


That would mean that something from a fictional world would have an effect on reality, wouldn`t it? How do you come to the idea that Lost Girl has an unpaid bill? Because Lost Girl and "Dern" are one identity?

This is seeing Nikki as a Bodhissatva; assigned that role from birth by Visitor #1.


I think such a role can`t be assigned to someone from birth. Probably there`s a certain potential to become a Bodhissatva for everyone, but one has to do things during live to become it. And the cause for doing such things would have come from within the corresponding person.

Well as you know, I don't agree about Janek. This all comes from your assumption that when he says, "Let's go." before the gun is picked up that he means they should go without the gun.


It`s out of question for me that Janek is against that gun-solution. It`s also the way he is saying that and his mimic and gesture. I wonder why you don`t see that. Maybe the meaning of a pistol is somewhat different in America than in Europe. I think in America you can go to a weapon shop and buy a gun, while in Europe it is not meant to have a pistol.

And this interpretation seems to me to lead to the explanation of how the gun got into the drawer etc.


It is probably there because southern husband Smithy put it inside. He shot already Billy in the middle of the night. And I don`t know if he shot Sue, too.

So that's what Mr. K. did, because Mr. K. could be Mr. Kubrick working with David Lynch on the other side.


It`s interesting that there was a real radio broadcast with Mr. K. Maybe David Lynch heard it and thought "What a godly broadcast!"

Kingsley could have invented all the stuff about the gypsy folk tale and Billy and Doris are in the OHIBT script.


Why would he invented all that? And why would we probably have flashbacks to old European "stories". There`s the danger that the two leads say: "If it is so, we won`t do OHIBT."

But he needs a Bodhissatva. He needs someone to help Lost Girl.


It seems that Mr. K doesn`t need something or someone, but he`s obviously interested in the presence of the phantom.

When the phantom said, "Nothing can happen unless you will it.", my friend said, "Yes, that's right!"


Why did she say that? Did she see parallels to TM there?

It seems to me that the phantom in that scene very much resembles a guru in an ashram.


I know a band which is called Ashram, but I don`t know what an ashram is. Probably a guru wouldn`t want to hold the hand of a young woman and wouldn`t say "What about them?!" in that way.

But a way of seeing that is that Nikki went over there as Sue to cause trouble deliberately, to tempt the phantom into the American story.


The phantom probably is there, because Kingsley uses a cursed story.

What he doesn't know is that the gun has been put in the drawer, but anyway, by the time he gets to Smithy's House, Nikki already has the gun.


I wonder what that gun really could be. A means to do something against a phantom. A means that leads to a vision with blood.

It seems that they are parts of the same person somehow but Nikki helps the part that needs help.


And how can it be that a woman who is 20 in 1939 can be 20 in 2006?! Maybe by the help of magic.

Dan thinks that there is a man behind Winkies but we can see for ourselves that there is a woman there.


Never had the idea that the man behind Winkies is a woman. How do you come to that idea?

Aunt Ruth looks in after the blue box falls and is dressed exactly the same as when we saw her take her keys from the table, so, from her point of view, no three days has passed, nobody was ever in her house, there was no robe on the bed with a note on it, etc.


So what could all that mean what we saw?! Maybe and probably all dreamed by Diane. On the other side we again have magic. And the magician really looks like taking and then having something.

They both realize that they are dead and they are sorry for how they treated each other.


Oh, that`s a great dramatic interpretation!

At the beginning, and again not many agree with me, before the credits end, we are introduced to the three characters who dream the first part of the movie:


The two important hints at the beginning shall be before the opening title. I don`t know exactly what David Lynch means with opening title. Does that mean the street sign we see ("Mulholland Drive")?

I think Audrey is more complex than that:


Yes, that`s true. But when we see her face expression in that classroom in the pilot that tells volumes. Nice pictures, especially the first one.

It's as if he had the characters and had an idea who they were supposed to be and then decided to let them explore the full depth of what it would be like to see someone like that. They are like Les Enfants Terribles. Animal children with no orientation to humanity.


Yes, probably yes. Thank you for that hint. I also thought that David Lynch could have shown them a movie in which similar characters are to get an idea how they should play.

I don't know what to make of that scene except that it shows those girls are always with her, not matter what her age.


I wonder if there were a series somewhere in which such an end was always the same.

There are high probabilities therefore that Jack Rabbit is either Jack Rabbit, Mr. K or the monolog woman.
applesnoranges
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:19 am

MichaelPW: I'll answer this in a bit. I think my version of what happens on the street, with Mr. K., etc., will change somewhat. I see you sent a PM and then deleted it. I can't figure out how to send them. If you can tell me how it is done, I can send a PM with my email address and you can contact me that way if you want.
MichaelPW
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby MichaelPW » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:56 am

Oh, that`s interesting. I thought when I delete it, it will be away only for me. So I will send you a PM again. Just click on the user name you want write a PM to and then on "PM".
Carl
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby Carl » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:21 pm

Briefly On-Topic: No one speaks with anything like a N.C. accent in the movie. That accent can best be heard by listening to the winning NASCAR driver explain what a fine car and crew he has ( if you can stand the sound of it.)

** I'd say that marine and his sis stuff is a delusion on the part of a disturbed Sue , who is clearly the victim of a severe personality disorder and a character in OHIBT or a 'half', perhaps, who she is 'seeing' more than she wants to.
The 'depth psychology' interpretation of IE would have many of the other main women characters --LG, Nikki-- merely unresolved personas of this sad , confused, abused woman. To me, that ain't the most interesting GUT. I prefer to entertain multiple interpretations. It adds such a richness to the work of art, imo.

***'...It would be tempting to think that Nikki and Devon went to the studio and used the Smithy's House set for their own tryst, but we know that from their point of view, Smithy's House is not finished and is only a front...'

I just assume this is so. When you're sneaking and cheating, you gotta use what's available. This is a few days later, after filming at least one scene of OHIBT. Maybe they had completed this set.

****When the hookers ask ' Where did you go ?', it's because Sue freaked when she saw Doris Side ( that incarnation of the Ormond character)and demanded entrance to the strip club, where she was conducted to her interview. When she returns, is when she is asked.
*****Yeah, there's actors, roles and 'halfs'.
What a nifty movie!
applesnoranges
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:58 pm

MichaelPW wrote:Can one see from the outside if a house is made of brick? Brick is something different from Clinker brick I think. Probably most houses are made of brick, or? So when Nikki says "I crossed the line and I didn`t recognize this street" that could mean that she left her house and went to the brick house. Visitor 1 probably comes from the rabbit room and not from the brick house.

Anyway, I don't see any similarities at all. She says the brick house tucked back in the small woods. Makes her sound like the old witch from Hanzel and Gretel. And she's from somewhere near where Nikki lives.
I don`t think that there is someone like Mr. K within reincarnation philosophies. It seems that Mr. K is looking for the phantom and that he can conclude its presence by the things the monolog woman says.

Yes, probably. I am going to try to look at the resurrection of Nikki differently now anyway.

This story of Sue Blue's helps Lost Girl get out of the trouble she is in because it pays her unpaid bill.

That would mean that something from a fictional world would have an effect on reality, wouldn`t it? How do you come to the idea that Lost Girl has an unpaid bill? Because Lost Girl and "Dern" are one identity?

Yes, that seems to be the point of her playing the role, doesn't it? If someone died in Poland and that left LG stuck in the hotel room, then Sue dying pays the unpaid bill; it doesn't require a real person to die. I can't explain why but that is what I see happenng.
I think such a role can`t be assigned to someone from birth. Probably there`s a certain potential to become a Bodhissatva for everyone, but one has to do things during live to become it. And the cause for doing such things would have come from within the corresponding person.

OK, I don't know enough about it. I should not have used the word.

Well as you know, I don't agree about Janek. This all comes from your assumption that when he says, "Let's go." before the gun is picked up that he means they should go without the gun.

It`s out of question for me that Janek is against that gun-solution. It`s also the way he is saying that and his mimic and gesture. I wonder why you don`t see that. Maybe the meaning of a pistol is somewhat different in America than in Europe. I think in America you can go to a weapon shop and buy a gun, while in Europe it is not meant to have a pistol.

No I have never known anyone who had a gun. I posted this on imdb without saying why to see if anyone had an opinion and only two people answered, one each way. If Janek did not agree it doesn't matter because the plan is to take the gun to the American story so that Nikki as Sue can get rid of Lost Girl's phantom. Is that so, or do you see something else happening? I see that happening on screen so I don't know why you care what Janek thought unless you see a different story.
And this interpretation seems to me to lead to the explanation of how the gun got into the drawer etc.

It is probably there because southern husband Smithy put it inside. He shot already Billy in the middle of the night. And I don`t know if he shot Sue, too.

Maybe so but anyway he had the gun so he got it from the Polish story. The same actor put it there.

When Sue comes home with the groceries at night and goes to the kitchen, we see the Lucas character quietly sneaking around. He comes from the hallway leading to the bedroom and turns to the right and down the main hall, but only a little way. There he finds a door inside a recessed part of the wall and goes through it. This is the doorway which at the end Lost Girl enters Smithy's House. This is one of two doorways that lead to the rabbit warren of the Inland Empire (the other one is at the end of the hall, the one through which Nikki enters to get the gun). So Lucas has come from the séance room and into Smithy's house through that doorway. (Though as I said before, I thinks he stops first at the mansion of Nikki and Piotrek where he is the most powerful guy around.)
It`s interesting that there was a real radio broadcast with Mr. K. Maybe David Lynch heard it and thought "What a godly broadcast!"

I've seen something about that. Could be. One can get an idea from anything.

Kingsley could have invented all the stuff about the gypsy folk tale and Billy and Doris are in the OHIBT script.

Why would he invented all that? And why would we probably have flashbacks to old European "stories". There`s the danger that the two leads say: "If it is so, we won`t do OHIBT."

Just trying to describe what I see happening. Do you see something different? The theory would be that he is trying to scare Devon and Nikki so that their performance will be more intense. Or that he and Freddy know what will happen. It's as if they are making the story happen.
When the phantom said, "Nothing can happen unless you will it.", my friend said, "Yes, that's right!"

Why did she say that? Did she see parallels to TM there?

I didn't ask her but I assume she did see that. Once I told her the story of the Maharishi coming to the US and Allen Ginsberg getting into an argument with him because he told Americans that they should follow their leaders and do what they say. So my friend said that he also said that Americans voted for them so they are responsible for what happens. This was last year that she said that and she added that he is not saying that anymore. So I guessed that all the "actions have consequences" stuff comes from TM or something like it (Hinduism etc.).
I know a band which is called Ashram, but I don`t know what an ashram is. Probably a guru wouldn`t want to hold the hand of a young woman and wouldn`t say "What about them?!" in that way.

An ashram is a sort of temple or church centered around a guru. Baba Muktananda had them set up all over the world. People live in them as a community. I knew someone who went to a meeting and as they were all passing by, he singled her out and touched her third eye and she had migraine headaches after that which could not be cured. Here are some things they found out about him after he died: http://www.leavingsiddhayoga.net/secret.htm
The phantom probably is there, because Kingsley uses a cursed story.

OK, true enough, so then how would you interpret the scene at Doris' house?
I wonder what that gun really could be. A means to do something against a phantom. A means that leads to a vision with blood.

I don't think that is specifically stated, but in a monster movie, the monster always gets killed at the end, and in this movie the phantom is the monster. But it's more complicated because what is a phantom? An idea? So he doesn't have to die. David Lynch said that asking what evil is is like asking what darkness is; they are the absence of something. So the monster doesn't have to die here. But as a story that's how it seems to work.
And how can it be that a woman who is 20 in 1939 can be 20 in 2006?! Maybe by the help of magic.

Or, another way of putting it, because she is dead and has been trapped in that room all that time just as she was when she died. She can't change and that is why she is lost. The door must have been open the whole time but she could not go through it because she did not notice it. It took someone showing her what could happen.
Never had the idea that the man behind Winkies is a woman. How do you come to that idea?

For one thing she is played by a woman actress and for another thing she looks like a woman.
So what could all that mean what we saw?! Maybe and probably all dreamed by Diane. On the other side we again have magic. And the magician really looks like taking and then having something.

The idea that Diane dreamed it came to people in 2002 and I have never liked it. I see something completely different happening: a story told by multiple dreamers dreaming the same things. Notice that when Betty comes to Ruth's house there is bowl of red peppers on the table that we didn't see when Rita was hiding under it.
The two important hints at the beginning shall be before the opening title. I don`t know exactly what David Lynch means with opening title. Does that mean the street sign we see ("Mulholland Drive")?

The clue that comes with my copy says: "1) Pay particular attention to the beginning of the film: at least two
clues are revealed before the credits." The credits begin immediately so I think he meant before the end of the credits, which are sometime just before the accident.
There are high probabilities therefore that Jack Rabbit is either Jack Rabbit, Mr. K or the monolog woman.

Those are the only three people we see in that room so that excludes everyone else out. But Jack Rabbit was the man at the séance and the séance is mentioned, so that leads to him.
applesnoranges
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby applesnoranges » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:15 pm

Carl wrote:Briefly On-Topic: No one speaks with anything like a N.C. accent in the movie. That accent can best be heard by listening to the winning NASCAR driver explain what a fine car and crew he has ( if you can stand the sound of it.)

Carl, thanks for that. I started the thread because TheMysteryMan said he had driven to North Carolina to see the movie so I thought maybe he would know but he seems to have drifted off. At the time I was trying to see if the characters could be distinguished from each other by accent, but now I don't think so anyway because Nikki and Devon can also be thought to be imitating their characters when they talk to each other. Anyway, Nikki's accent seems to become "thicker" or more pronounced from the beginning of the film to the end. Since she talks about the Marine being from North Carolina in the monolog I wondered if she herself were speaking with that accent, but I guess not.
** I'd say that marine and his sis stuff is a delusion on the part of a disturbed Sue , who is clearly the victim of a severe personality disorder and a character in OHIBT or a 'half', perhaps, who she is 'seeing' more than she wants to.
The 'depth psychology' interpretation of IE would have many of the other main women characters --LG, Nikki-- merely unresolved personas of this sad , confused, abused woman. To me, that ain't the most interesting GUT. I prefer to entertain multiple interpretations. It adds such a richness to the work of art, imo.

Yes, that focus on Sue was popular early after the movie came out, but more and more interesting things continue to be noticed. I like the idea that the Marine's Sister is the only real character and that she just had a bad dream for no particular reason. But at the end, the credits party starts right after we see her and, like her brother, she done disappears. So I take it that she is still dreaming. I like the idea that an independent character not really connected with the story dreamed it; that gives the story an environment in which anything can happen so it can take place as it does.
I just assume this is so. When you're sneaking and cheating, you gotta use what's available. This is a few days later, after filming at least one scene of OHIBT. Maybe they had completed this set.

That works, and the scene of Devon dead in MTTH indicates that the man in the green coat killed him there on the set (or in some industrial setting). But what we see on the screen is someone who claims to be Nikki thinking that she is with Devon and someone who seems to be Billy thinking that he is with Sue. It seems here that the actors have sunk into their characters.
****When the hookers ask ' Where did you go ?', it's because Sue freaked when she saw Doris Side ( that incarnation of the Ormond character)and demanded entrance to the strip club, where she was conducted to her interview. When she returns, is when she is asked.

Yes, but who is she? There are two versions of her on the street, one laughing at the other. So who went up the stairs and who came back?
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Re: North Carolina accent?

Postby Carl » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:48 pm

I still wonder about the ' Who is she?' girl, herself, the one that question is asked about in old Poland. :)

'There are two versions of her on the street, one laughing at the other.'
Not sure I catch that.
**
'...And how can it be that a woman who is 20 in 1939 can be 20 in 2006?! Maybe by the help of magic.'
Maybe by being possessed ( same thing, really.)
Sue notices this age-discrepancy in herself and comments on it (in what surely looks like a therapy session with a harried case worker.)

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