Where did the gun come from?

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applesnoranges
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Where did the gun come from?

Postby applesnoranges » Fri May 30, 2008 5:05 pm

At the séance, the man on the right who was questioning Piotrek gave him the gun, but where did he get it? Maybe there is no answer but it seems that there should have been one. If this man had been the one who turned into Suzie rather than to Jane, then Suzie, because of her name, her robe, and ironing board, could be associated with Susan Blue and so we could say that the gun came from Susan and through Suzie was given to Piotrek, who took it to Smithy's House in California and put it in the drawer. So where would she have gotten it? Out of the drawer and the whole thing would go over and over and over. But I don't think that's the way it goes so it seems to me that Lynch overlooked an opportunity here, either accidentally or deliberately. But such a big deal is made of how the gun got from one place to another that it seems that there should be an answer to where it came from.
Carl
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Carl » Fri May 30, 2008 10:14 pm

'Now, that's another mystery.'
I have considered this myself and reached no conclusions. I really don't tend to make too much of the Rabbits stuff, as it seems pretty clear they are just gratuitous, albeit interesting, left-overs from an earlier project.
I'm still thinking about whether it's Nikki's husband or Sue's who is the figure that is given the gun. It seemed to me at first that surely it was Nikki's, essentially one of the producers of OHIBT. That has, at least, the virtue of making sense.
Yet, somehow, this man seems more like Smithy, which would make these scenes from OHIBT, rather than IE.
Good idea to start this as a new Thread, imo, as it seems key to any rational plot. As Posted on another Thread, there's a story here, whether DL intended it or not. (I paraphrase.)
applesnoranges
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby applesnoranges » Sat May 31, 2008 10:47 am

Carl wrote:
I'm still thinking about whether it's Nikki's husband or Sue's who is the figure that is given the gun. It seemed to me at first that surely it was Nikki's, essentially one of the producers of OHIBT. That has, at least, the virtue of making sense.

The point I've been trying to make in probably all of these threads is that, as I see it, the man who picks up the gun is the actor, Peter Lucas. Since he plays all of his characters, no matter which one it is, Lucas is the one who brings the gun from the séance to the American story. He enters Smithy's House through the side door in the main hallway, apparently plants the gun in the drawer (as "the man in the green coat"), lies down and turns out the light.

It may be that we can't get anywhere trying to figure where the gun came from, but it's just a question that seems to arise naturally. Lynch seems to have made a point of showing that the gun came from the man who became Jack Rabbit so that disrupts any attempt to equate the rabbits with people in the OHIBT story (as some people do). So if the gun came from Jack, the only thing we know about him is that he moves out of the rabbit room and into various other parts of the story.

One other thought is that the mustached Lucas character seen head down on the stairs seems to have been shot in the head, and his watch is missing, so that makes me suspect the Polish Majchrzak character as his killer, that and the man's jealousy. So maybe the gun came from him somehow, but there is nothing logical that I can see to show how except that he gets shot with the same gun.

There is another matter that is harder to see, and that is the relationship between the actors of the 4-7 movie and their characters. We see a lot about Nikki's relationship to Sue, but not so much about the Polish characters. I've read people's thoughts about Gruszka and Majchrzak playing the actors who played in 4-7 but I've never been able to sort it out. But I've been wondering lately if the mustached man played by Lucas is the 4-7 character but that we don't know much about the actor who plays his part or whether or not he too has a mustache. We also don't know about the actor who plays the Lucas part in OHIBT because Kingsley doesn't seem to have actors who play his part or the part of Doris. So all I can see at this point is that somehow the fact that we don't see these actors (playing the parts in the Polish and American movies) is what relates them. They seem to have entered Kingsley's story in some way Kingsley doesn't seem to know about (perhaps through the dreams of Nikki about the movie she is making etc.) So if the gun came from the Majcherzak character in 4-7 who killed the 4-7 Lucas character, I wonder if it somehow passed from the 4-7 character to the actor we don't see (but logically would also be played by Majchrzak if we could see him), and then where? It must be much simpler than this; I'm just thinking here.
Kiddo
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Kiddo » Sat May 31, 2008 4:41 pm

I've always believed that Lost Girl is responsible for the gun. After all, she is the reason the old men are there.
applesnoranges
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby applesnoranges » Sat May 31, 2008 6:53 pm

That's logical and seems to be the answer that hits home best. I just wonder if there is more to it, like how did she get the gun which killed the man she loves? Maybe it is a different gun or maybe she killed him herself, perhaps accidentally. It just seems that there must be clear answers to these possibilities and perhaps others.
Kiddo
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Kiddo » Sat May 31, 2008 7:18 pm

My feeling is that she may be the one who shot and killed her lover in the first place, and the gun she passed on to the old men and Lucas's character is somehow her way of trying to repent for her crime. She is, in effect, giving the gun back to the man she murdered with it.

Lost Girl appears as a ghost in this scene, and her troubled spirit is unable to move on. Maybe giving Lucas's character the gun serves as a symbolic way of returning his virility. We know that he claims to be sterile, yet at the end of the movie, long after Lost Girl has given him the loaded pistol, we see that he has a son. Maybe she is being Delilah in reverse here.

Following this admittedly strange logic, I also do not believe that the gun is a real gun. It is, for lack of a better term, a phantom gun. After all, we know that the gun shoots light instead of bullets.
applesnoranges
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby applesnoranges » Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:14 pm

Let's move some pieces around and see if they can be tightened up. This is probably not the best way to bring this into focus but, just to see where we end up. Pieces:

We saw Lost Girl heading upstairs with a screwdriver ready to kill someone. Yet mustache-man has been shot in the head and we didn't hear a gunshot after she went upstairs. But what you say is logical, that the effect of the séance would be for her to give him the gun. She probably meant to kill someone else and the person she'd most likely want to kill would be the Majchrzak character. Yet, he confronts her on the street after a murder has taken place. So then he may have shot Lucas' character and then she stabbed him. Or which other murder may have taken place? The woman in white sounds ready to kill and it would be the Gruszka character she means to kill. But all of these people in Poland we seem to see in their roles in the 4-7 movie, except perhaps the corpse played by Lucas; he may be the actor of that character, corresponding to the shot of Devon dead. Devon seems to be bleeding from the stomach and so does the vision of Lucas' character at the barbecue.

It seems that these pieces can't be put together as they are but first must be separated into which are reflections of which. E.g. what happens in the 4-7 movie and what happens to the actors who played in it? Who wanted to kill whom in that movie and who wanted to kill whom among its actors? I don't know if we can know that but we know that relationships between OHIBT characters interact with its actors, so, logically the same thing with 4-7.

Only the phantom gun shoots light; every other weapon seems to be real. But the only scenes in IE which seem to be somewhat real are those which are perhaps part of OHIBT or 4-7. Everything else seems to be a dream; maybe we could also call that a dream gun.
Kiddo
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Kiddo » Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:33 pm

The woman in white sounds ready to kill and it would be the Gruszka character she means to kill.

Only problem here is that the woman in white is Gruszka...

But all of these people in Poland we seem to see in their roles in the 4-7 movie, except perhaps the corpse played by Lucas; he may be the actor of that character

This seems random. We have no reason whatsoever to believe that any of the Polish scenes are from Vier-Sieben (47). I'm not saying that they aren't; I'm saying that we have no reason to believe that they are. There's no way to tell whether we're watching 47, or the lives of 47's actors, or something else altogether. Maybe we're seeing Visitor #1's "old story"...

Devon seems to be bleeding from the stomach

Might be more clear to refer to this character as Devon/Billy, as there is no possible way to say which character it really is

But the only scenes in IE which seem to be somewhat real are those which are perhaps part of OHIBT or 4-7. Everything else seems to be a dream

There's not a single scene in the film that appears to be a dream (unless I missed something), and I'd say that the Nikki scenes are equally as real as the Susan scenes, and possibly even moreso. I tend to think of them as being alternate realities, but the Susan scenes stem from the Nikki scenes, and not the other way around. Remember that Susan started out as a character that Nikki the actress was playing.
Carl
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Carl » Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:52 pm

'...not a single scene that seems to be a dream..'

Except, just maybe, the one after the first time Sue 'sees'. We see her sleeping in bed, under a blue night-light, at the end of this sequence. Then we see her cooking brekkie, getting mornig-sick, ect.
She might have been dreaming.

**
'...Only problem here is that the woman in white is Gruszka...'

Is she? I see her as either Ormond or a stand-in. True, I have no justification for this. 'Who is she?'

***
'...Might be more clear to refer to this character as Devon/Billy, as there is no possible way to say which character it really is...'

He's dressed in the same gauche fashion as Devon, not the ice cream suit of Billy.
To me, he's Devon.
Kiddo
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Kiddo » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:06 pm

Except, just maybe, the one after the first time Sue 'sees'.

Great point. I honestly didn't want to mention that scene because I felt it would open up a whole new can of worms. But you are completely right and kudos to you for being so observant.

Is she? I see her as either Ormond or a stand-in.

If you compare woman in white to Lost Girl in the first scene watching the TV, it is a perfect match.

He's dressed in the same gauche fashion as Devon, not the ice cream suit of Billy.

I'll get even more specific: the dead Theroux character is dressed in the same suit we saw Devon in when he kissed Nikki immediately before the sex scene. The problem is that we don't know for sure whether or not this was a love scene from OHBT, or if it was Devon and Nikki's "real" kiss after the dinner-date. The slow-mo kissing and Nikki's heavy lipstick lead me to believe it is the former, and yet I cannot discount the possibility of the latter.

There is no conclusive evidence to say that this is Devon and not Billy, although you and I are obviously free to think what we want. There simply isn't enough evidence for me to say one way or the other. It might even be possible that both characters me the very same fate...
Carl
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Carl » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:20 am

'...It might even be possible that both characters met the very same fate...'
My wife and I have felt this is the case since we first saw MTTH . We feel that one of the reasons it was not in the theatrical release was that it makes things too pat and obvious. We actually think that is why some other scenes were cut as well. They make things a bit too easy to follow.
Someone in IE seems to have worked very hard to recreate similar situations to the events surrounding the production 4 7. Who? Likewise, why?
Piotreck, to redeem LG, is our fave theory, but we are married only to each other, not to any theory.

**'...If you compare woman in white to Lost Girl in the first scene watching the TV, it is a perfect match. ...'
I do not see this. Her butt seems bigger and her waistline thicker. Of course, my eyes are not the best. :cry:
Someone else might weigh in on this ID.
Kiddo
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Kiddo » Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:07 am

I do not see this. Her butt seems bigger and her waistline thicker.

You don't see it because you didn't compare the two scenes that I suggested you do. In chapter 1 of IE, there is a quick shot of Lost Girl watching TV. The camera is behind her and we see the back of her head and her shoulders. No butt or waist. Just focus on the head, the hair, and the shoulders. Perfect match.

Btw, Ormand is even skinnier than Gruszka, so I don't see why you believe that big-butt Woman In White is Ormand.
Carl
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Carl » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:32 pm

'Ormond is even skinnier...'
True, enough. A stand-in for Ormond ( what a beauty, eh? ), made to look dumpy and unappealing so as to motivate/justify the mustachioed man's infidelity is what I think it might be.
Why the big, pointing, 'Who is she?" is another question. We're supposed to wonder.
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jina
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby jina » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:08 am

Carl wrote:Why the big, pointing, 'Who is she?" is another question. We're supposed to wonder.


that question at this point caught me by surprise, because at first i thought it was Ormond, too.

i just have a very blur idea of who that woman might be and why it is important to the story.
we see clearly she's Piotrek's wife. but Piotrek centuries ago!
Carl
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Re: Where did the gun come from?

Postby Carl » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:42 pm

Or maybe Piotrek's father's wife, about 30 years ago or so.
One maybe clue as to time period: what uniform is the lovely girl wearing, the streetwalker in the snowy Poland scene? Polish, Russian or German? From what decade?
It's always been at the back of my mind,'Why is the title of this old Polish film in German?'

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