Episode 29

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The Dream Man
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Re: Episode 29

Postby The Dream Man » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:25 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:
The Dream Man wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:
He may not care very much about helping Cooper out of the Lodge (or he may) but he certainly seems to care about reigning in Bob. In this case the two goals are coincident.


By sending this message though, he ultimately is helping Cooper out in a sense, right? That is, if the right people get it. What's his reasoning? That Coop is the only one that could possibly stop Bob?


EDIT: My answers are getting convoluted so I'll try to keep it simple...

Yes, this would be helping Cooper out, though I suspect that's a byproduct of the larger goal (reigning in Bob).

But it's not about unleashing Cooper in order to then stop Bob. The act of releasing the good Cooper from the Lodge is in itself a defeat for Bob.


Ahhh. Almost like he's a pawn to them.
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Episode 29

Postby LostInTheMovies » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:46 pm

The Dream Man wrote:Ahhh. Almost like he's a pawn to them.


To a certain extent, but I think it goes both ways. That is, it's hard to say to what extent Mike & Bob are "manipulating" the human world and to what extent they themselves are projections/reflections of what's already going on in the pyschological/emotional plane of the human world. That's one thing I like about Lynch's take on the "supernatural," the ambiguity of (as the Log Lady and the Emerald Tablet put it) "as above, so below."

Mike needs his garmonbozia (pain and sorrow), and Bob - by taking over hosts (using fear/the pleasures) - seems to be withholding his fair share. Cooper, Leland, Laura, and others are the individual examples of this struggle between cosmic forces/energies.

And on the other hand, Cooper's confusion, anxiety, and binary worldview suppresses his good side and unleashes his repressed evil, just as Leland's denial/repression threatened to overtake Laura as well. Mike and Bob are simply visualizations of this idea.

And on the other other hand, there is no one hand and the other - it's all the same thing! The unified field beneath the twin peaks...
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Re: Episode 29

Postby p-air » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:43 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:My post is gone! Maybe Windom Earle stole it...


More thoughts on Windom Earle: the Moriarty angle is definitely there but the character is also an aspiring “black magician” who attempts to harness hidden forces. Such figures also appear in genre fiction (Tolkien’s Saruman comes to mind) if not as often. This concept really isn’t Lynchian either, but it’s more compelling and might have fit more comfortably (perhaps “Frost-ian”ly) into the Twin Peaks world had the writers attempted it solely and in earnest.

In a universe where BOB exists, no character from “earth” would ever be convincing as a thoroughly evil or archetypal villain, so while viewers lament that Windom isn’t frightening enough I think the writers could have succeeded better by actually doing the opposite and allowing him to appear more conflicted, more vulnerable, or at least driven by some sort of vaguely relatable (even if insane) human motivation. We get a glimpse of this in Episode 27, I think, on the “dugpa” tape and when he’s interrogating the Major. At that point he appears so “hungry for knowledge” that for the first time I find myself wondering what exactly makes this character tick.

David Lynch amazingly delivers on this, or something like it, in Episode 29, not through any big backstory or exposition but in the subtle way he reconciles the character with the show’s existing cosmology. Lynch’s final depiction of Windom Earle in the Black Lodge strips away the clumsy “arch-villain” veneer to reveal a hubristic fool who has ventured way over his head into a sphere of reality which neither he nor Cooper nor any of us can actually understand. By annihilating Windom as he does, leaving him to dangle impotently in this incomprehensible state, Lynch is ironically the first to really breathe life into the horse-costumed one and humanize him to some extent.
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Episode 29

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:02 pm

p-air wrote:We get a glimpse of this in Episode 27, I think, on the “dugpa” tape and when he’s interrogating the Major. At that point he appears so “hungry for knowledge” that for the first time I find myself wondering what exactly makes this character tick.


I agree, and I think Windom's interest to me is in direct proportion to the extent he plays this role. I've heard people refer to Bob/Mike/etc as dugpas but it seems to me that clearly Windom Earle is the real parallel. They are spirits but he is (or at least wants to be) a sorcerer linking the spirit and human worlds.

Lynch’s final depiction of Windom Earle in the Black Lodge strips away the clumsy “arch-villain” veneer to reveal a hubristic fool who has ventured way over his head into a sphere of reality which neither he nor Cooper nor any of us can actually understand. By annihilating Windom as he does, leaving him to dangle impotently in this incomprehensible state, Lynch is ironically the first to really breathe life into the horse-costumed one and humanize him to some extent.


Well, to be fair this is present in the original script inasmuch as Windom gets his soul taken by Bob for having the chutzpah to ask for Cooper's himself. But I agree Lynch executes it more effectively, and by minimizing Windom's role inside the Lodge he underscores that the supervillain is way out of his league.
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Re: Episode 29

Postby Audrey Horne » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:35 am

call sheet
peaks 2022.JPG
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God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Episode 29

Postby LostInTheMovies » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:39 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:call sheet
peaks 2022.JPG


Same things with the names. I wonder why. Looking at call-times for actors it seems that shooting was going on simultaneously for the ep. 28 & ep. 29 scenes & actors. Interesting.

Also, there was a CNN special aired after it was announced that the show would be returning to Thursdays. They had footage of Lynch shooting ep. 29 and I was never sure if he shot it after or before the announcement had been made. But on March 4 it was definitely still on hiatus so I guess that means they didn't even know if these episodes would air while they shot them.

Do you know when the hiatus itself was announced? I know Feb. 19 was when they aired the last Saturday episode, but how far ahead of that was the hiatus made public - or hell, how far ahead of that were Lynch/Frost themselves notified, if there's a difference? I seem to recall from the alt.tv discussions that by the time ep. 23 aired, the upcoming hiatus/possible cancellation was already public knowledge.
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Jasper
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Re: Episode 29

Postby Jasper » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:53 pm

This has probably come up before, sometime, somewhere.

Right after Truman rescues Annie and (bad) Coop when they finally appear by the oil pool, we cut to the Great Northern, where the establishing shot is a closeup of the waterfall. It's one big cascade of water, then it splits in to two distinct halves in the frame. I suppose it could be coincidence, but it seems like such a clever and beautiful metaphor for the fracture of Cooper. This is right before the audience sees Cooper in his room, seemingly intact, followed by the infamous mirror headbutt with the BOB reflection.

If this doesn't ring a bell, please refer to these helpful screencaps:

TP_ep.29_waterfall.jpg
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Episode 29

Postby LostInTheMovies » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:55 pm

Jasper wrote:This has probably come up before, sometime, somewhere.

Right after Truman rescues Annie and (bad) Coop when they finally appear by the oil pool, we cut to the Great Northern, where the establishing shot is a closeup of the waterfall. It's one big cascade of water, then it splits in to two distinct halves in the frame. I suppose it could be coincidence, but it seems like such a clever and beautiful metaphor for the fracture of Cooper. This is right before the audience sees Cooper in his room, seemingly intact, followed by the infamous mirror headbutt with the BOB reflection.

If this doesn't ring a bell, please refer to these helpful screencaps:

TP_ep.29_waterfall.jpg


Wow, nice catch.

The whole "split" thing fascinates me especially since the tendency is overwhelmingly to talk about Cooper as having been taken over or possessed. But a split is not only more accurate given what we see and hear in the finale & FWWM, but also much more in line with Lynch's depictions of identity, psyche and physical reality in his later works.
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Jasper
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Re: Episode 29

Postby Jasper » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:08 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:
Jasper wrote:This has probably come up before, sometime, somewhere.

Right after Truman rescues Annie and (bad) Coop when they finally appear by the oil pool, we cut to the Great Northern, where the establishing shot is a closeup of the waterfall. It's one big cascade of water, then it splits in to two distinct halves in the frame. I suppose it could be coincidence, but it seems like such a clever and beautiful metaphor for the fracture of Cooper. This is right before the audience sees Cooper in his room, seemingly intact, followed by the infamous mirror headbutt with the BOB reflection.

If this doesn't ring a bell, please refer to these helpful screencaps:

The attachment TP_ep.29_waterfall.jpg is no longer available


Wow, nice catch.

The whole "split" thing fascinates me especially since the tendency is overwhelmingly to talk about Cooper as having been taken over or possessed. But a split is not only more accurate given what we see and hear in the finale & FWWM, but also much more in line with Lynch's depictions of identity, psyche and physical reality in his later works.


I totally agree. While I suppose it's slightly complicated by the apparent BOB ride-along, it does essentially seem like a kind of psychological split within Cooper.

Incidentally, the waterfall cuts directly to sleeping/unconscious Coop slowly coming to and opening his eyes:

Coop_bed.jpg
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Jasper
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Re: Episode 29

Postby Jasper » Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:00 pm

I just wanted to combine these to better illustrate the transition.

TP_ep.29_waterfall_4.jpg
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Jonah
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Re: Episode 29

Postby Jonah » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:20 am

I've never rewatched episodes on their own or out-of-sync, I've always done full episode-by-episode rewatches, usually with FWWM before or after (as a prologue or epilogue). However, I'm thinking of rewatching 29 and a few other Lynch-helmed episodes on their own. 29 is one of my favourites. I still rate 14 a little higher, mainly for those final sequences cutting between Maddy and the Roadhouse, but 29 is the better of the two I think, for the sheer moments of Lynch madness and delicious surrealism. I think the Red Room scenes here were never better, not even in FWWM. For me, these are the definitive Red Room sequences, and this episode has never lost its power to terrify and disturb me (those scenes with Bob, Leland, and Cooper's doppleganger chasing him) are still very creepy, and never seem to dim even with numerous rewatches. Such a great episode, and I think a testament to Twin Peaks enduring legacy - it left so much lingering in viewers' minds, not only with the use of the standard cliffhangers, but the power and visceral emotion evoked by this episode I think cemented the show's legacy. Talk about going out with a bang.

Jasper wrote:I just wanted to combine these to better illustrate the transition.

TP_ep.29_waterfall_4.jpg


That's amazing! I don't think I noticed that before.
Actually, now that some time has passed, I like "The full blossom of the evening".
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Episode 29

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:23 am

Jonah wrote:I've never rewatched episodes on their own or out-of-sync, I've always done full episode-by-episode rewatches, usually with FWWM before or after (as a prologue or epilogue). However, I'm thinking of rewatching 29 and a few other Lynch-helmed episodes on their own. 29 is one of my favourites. I still rate 14 a little higher, mainly for those final sequences cutting between Maddy and the Roadhouse, but 29 is the better of the two I think, for the sheer moments of Lynch madness and delicious surrealism. I think the Red Room scenes here were never better, not even in FWWM. For me, these are the definitive Red Room sequences, and this episode has never lost its power to terrify and disturb me (those scenes with Bob, Leland, and Cooper's doppleganger chasing him) are still very creepy, and never seem to dim even with numerous rewatches. Such a great episode, and I think a testament to Twin Peaks enduring legacy - it left so much lingering in viewers' minds, not only with the use of the standard cliffhangers, but the power and visceral emotion evoked by this episode I think cemented the show's legacy. Talk about going out with a bang.

Jasper wrote:I just wanted to combine these to better illustrate the transition.

TP_ep.29_waterfall_4.jpg


That's amazing! I don't think I noticed that before.


It's interesting to watch the Lynch episodes in order but on their own because you can really see his style shifting over the course of the show, independently of the show itself changing. The pilot and finale side-by-side almost look like the work of different directors - he was really entering a new phase of his career (even if the style - wide lens, long takes, etc - isn't quite in the subjective, impressionistic territory of his later feature film work).
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Re: Episode 29

Postby Jasper » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:37 pm

Have we discussed the disappearing Venus statue?

There is a Venus statue in the lodge hallway that Coop traverses back and forth a number of times (he travels back and forth between only two openings, though the contents of the rooms change). The last time we see the statue is when Coop runs from screaming Laura, into the hallway and down to the opposite end. We see him entering another empty room, where he realizes that he’s bleeding, and turns to hobble back out, clutching his gut. Upon reentering the hallway, we see that there is now a trail of blood running down it from the end where he’d encountered screaming Laura, and the Venus statue is gone. The hallway statue remains absent for the remainder of the episode. Coop travels the length of the hallway a total of four separate times after he realizes he’s bleeding, and the Venus statue is consistently absent.

entering_and_exiting_s.jpg
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Episode 29

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:52 pm

Hm - I remembered there was a thread a while back and was able to dig this up: http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2720. But I don't think anyone got too heavily into the question of why she disappears...
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Re: Episode 29

Postby Jasper » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:46 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:Hm - I remembered there was a thread a while back and was able to dig this up: http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2720. But I don't think anyone got too heavily into the question of why she disappears...


I vaguely remember that thread. Scanning it very quickly I don't see the disappearance mentioned. I believe that the Venus de' Medici (arms) only appears in the rooms of the lodge, while the Venus de Milo (no arms) only appears in the hallway. The idea about Venus de Milo having held the Apple of Discord is interesting. The last time we see her is the glimpse (seen in the picture I posted) of Coop running from the room of the screaming Laura. The disappearance may be some kind of indicator, like the wound, that this is when Coop was defeated, or at least that this is when things started to go south for him, culminating with his defeat when he runs from his doppelganger.

SickNotes wrote:Venus is the Roman version of the Greek god Aphrodite


I am now going to engage in another mythological free association that comes back around to Twin Peaks (sort of). I'm not in any way claiming that this means anything. In fact, I'm pretty confident that it doesn't mean a thing. Please allow me my fun. :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte

Astarte is the Hellenized form of the Middle Eastern goddess Ishtar, worshiped from the Bronze Age through classical antiquity.

Astarte was worshiped in Syria and Canaan beginning in the first millennium BC and was first mentioned in texts from Ugarit. She came from the same Semitic origins as the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar, and an Ugaritic text specifically equates her with Ishtar. Her worship spread to Cyprus, where she may have been merged with an ancient Cypriot goddess. This merged Cypriot goddess may have been adopted into the Greek pantheon in Mycenaean and Dark Age times to form Aphrodite.

Ashteroth Karnaim (Astarte was called Ashteroth in the Hebrew Bible) was a city in the land of Bashan east of the Jordan River, mentioned in Genesis 14:5 and Joshua 12:4 (where it is rendered solely as Ashteroth). The name translates literally to 'Ashteroth of the Horns', with 'Ashteroth' being a Canaanite fertitility goddess and 'horns' being symbolic of mountain peaks.

Astarte_Phonecian_Statuette__Louvre_sm.jpg
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