Episode 16

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the haystack
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Re: Episode 16

Postby the haystack » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:11 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:... and he said "I saw some creamed corn in the cafeteria today and I just had to include it!" But what I wonder is if it was also his idea to have a different, presumably unrelated Tremond woman living in the house a few episodes later - even though he didn't write or direct that episode.
The mystery within the mystery or How this stuff happens!
I can professionally relate to an environment where a creative project spans many months, and throughout the blueprints become more and more altered, sometimes through circumstance or logistics, but chiefly by muse of someone in authority. People involved in the work always bracing--what did he come up with this time? The effects are generally compounded however, and deferred...drop a stone in still water and notice the ripples. Did Tremond lady #2 ripple in Lynch's mind a day later, and he shared it with writers/directors? Or, Tim Hunter wake up from sleep with a Lynchian inspiration? The creamed corn concept evolves into a principal icon and motive involving primary individuals and spawning vastly more secondary characters and places.

It just started out as a magic trick. Did the inception of garmonbozia precede, accompany or follow this.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby the haystack » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:20 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:... and he said "I saw some creamed corn in the cafeteria today and I just had to include it!" But what I wonder is if it was also his idea to have a different, presumably unrelated Tremond woman living in the house a few episodes later - even though he didn't write or direct that episode.
The mystery within the mystery or How this stuff happens!
Professionally, I can relate to an environment where a creative project spans many months, and throughout, the blueprints become more and more altered, sometimes through circumstance or logistics, but chiefly by muse of someone in authority. People involved in the work always bracing--what did he come up with this time? The effects are generally compounded however, and deferred...drop a stone in still water and notice the ripples. Did Tremond lady #2 ripple in Lynch's mind a day later, and he shared it with writers/directors? Or, Tim Hunter wake from sleep with a Lynchian inspiration? The creamed corn concept evolves into a principal icon and motive involving primary individuals and spawns vastly more secondary characters and places.

It just started out as a magic trick. Did the inception/coining of garmonbozia precede, accompany or follow this.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:57 pm

the haystack wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:... and he said "I saw some creamed corn in the cafeteria today and I just had to include it!" But what I wonder is if it was also his idea to have a different, presumably unrelated Tremond woman living in the house a few episodes later - even though he didn't write or direct that episode.
The mystery within the mystery or How this stuff happens!
Professionally, I can relate to an environment where a creative project spans many months, and throughout, the blueprints become more and more altered, sometimes through circumstance or logistics, but chiefly by muse of someone in authority. People involved in the work always bracing--what did he come up with this time? The effects are generally compounded however, and deferred...drop a stone in still water and notice the ripples. Did Tremond lady #2 ripple in Lynch's mind a day later, and he shared it with writers/directors? Or, Tim Hunter wake from sleep with a Lynchian inspiration? The creamed corn concept evolves into a principal icon and motive involving primary individuals and spawns vastly more secondary characters and places.

It just started out as a magic trick. Did the inception/coining of garmonbozia precede, accompany or follow this.


Given the long gap between ep. 9 & FWWM and the impromptu invention of creamed corn, I would definitely err on the side of garmonbozia being coined & conceptualizer only after the series...but I'll also go even further! I suspect that garmonbozia was not pain and sorrow until post-production on FWWM - since in the script it is only supposed to be subtitled "corn." Was it the secret identity of creamed corn a secret he planned to keep, or something he didn't discover himself until the eleventh hour? The mystery continues...

I always think of a story Michael J. Anderson told about walking past Lynch's editing suite and overhearing him say "So THAT'S what I meant by that!"
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Re: Episode 16

Postby the haystack » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:53 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:in the script it is only supposed to be subtitled "corn."...I always think of a story Michael J. Anderson told about walking past Lynch's editing suite and overhearing him say "So THAT'S what I meant by that!"
LOL! Now picture this:
Anderson working out his LMFAP lines: NN--RR--O--K...NNRROK...NROK!
David interrupts him: Oh, by the way, corn's out, let's change it to Garmonbozia.
Anderson: shit.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby David Locke » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:29 pm

I totally forgot about the part with Mrs. Tremond being another person entirely in this episode. I do think there's something Lynchian to that idea, and I like it quite a lot. It's the kind of conceit I have a weakness for when writing short stories/screenplays; an impossibility (totally different woman in the same residence, also named Tremond but with no relation to the previous one) which suggests some kind of eerie supernatural aspect at work without coming right out and telling you anything.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:26 am

David Locke wrote:I totally forgot about the part with Mrs. Tremond being another person entirely in this episode. I do think there's something Lynchian to that idea, and I like it quite a lot. It's the kind of conceit I have a weakness for when writing short stories/screenplays; an impossibility (totally different woman in the same residence, also named Tremond but with no relation to the previous one) which suggests some kind of eerie supernatural aspect at work without coming right out and telling you anything.


That's what I love about Lynch's post-Twin Peaks work. Impossibilites neither rationally explained away nor given some in-world supernatural decoding ("it's all aliens", "it's time travel" etc).
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Re: Episode 16

Postby Panapaok » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:50 pm

I really love this episode but there's always a couple of things that really irk me. Why Cooper calls Big Ed at the Roadhouse? He literally walks in and doesn't do anything at all.

Also, Ben Horne is supposedly arrested for Laura's and Maddy's murder. Why would Leland come with them at the Sheriff's Station as his attorney, since Ben is the supposed killer of his daughter and niece.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby LostInTheMovies » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:35 am

Panapaok wrote:Also, Ben Horne is supposedly arrested for Laura's and Maddy's murder. Why would Leland come with them at the Sheriff's Station as his attorney, since Ben is the supposed killer of his daughter and niece.


I HATE this.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby David Locke » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:12 pm

Watching the episode yet again, my feelings remain mixed. Yet I somehow think it's something of a great episode -- better than 15, and better than possibly anything until the finale. Thankfully, unlike 15, there are only a couple bits of fluff -- Dick/Lucy, Norma's mom -- neither of which are given much time. But, of course, the problem lies elsewhere. The best way to put it is that the execution of the way Cooper finds out simply does not work. It's rushed, overtly literal, and completely contrived. The episode is jam-packed with stuff, as if the writers had no time to waste.

On a level of style, and momentum and importance (plus a handful of outstanding scenes) it's pretty superb. But, we deserved a much, much better conclusion to the great mystery than this overly convenient wrap-up. I really couldn't put it better than Nochimson did, that it's crumbling just as it reaches the crescendo.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:04 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:
Panapaok wrote:Also, Ben Horne is supposedly arrested for Laura's and Maddy's murder. Why would Leland come with them at the Sheriff's Station as his attorney, since Ben is the supposed killer of his daughter and niece.


I HATE this.


Agreed. It seems that at certain key climactic moments in the story, the writers would completely lose sight of where some characters were in their personal storylines. I hate to say it, but it's just bad writing, and someone should have caught it. It happens again in Episode 29 (Norma indulging Ed & Nadine's domestic squabble while her sister is in the clutches of a homicidal psychopath; Truman more concerned about Coop's dental hygiene than the presumably fatal bank explosion in town). However, this is by far most egregious example, and really impacts my opinion of the episode. Other elements that I might otherwise be willing to forgive as misfires/noble efforts are filtered through the lens of this piece of unbelievably sloppy writing, and it's tough for me to believe that the writers had any motivation at this point except to wrap the Laura story up as quickly as possible. (The crappy wake sequence in Episode 17 and Sarah's disappearance from the show thereafter, until Lynch brought her back for an unscripted finale appearance, all but confirm this.) Hunter, Wise and MacLachlan all gave bravado turns in this one, and thanks largely to them, the episode gets by on atmosphere, horror and emotion. On the writing end, though, this is where the wheels completely fall off for me. (Perhaps Frost had a plane to catch to scout locations for Storyville, and this one had to be rushed to draft?)
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Re: Episode 16

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:55 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Agreed. It seems that at certain key climactic moments in the story, the writers would completely lose sight of where some characters were in their personal storylines. I hate to say it, but it's just bad writing, and someone should have caught it. It happens again in Episode 29 (Norma indulging Ed & Nadine's domestic squabble while her sister is in the clutches of a homicidal psychopath; Truman more concerned about Coop's dental hygiene than the presumably fatal bank explosion in town).


And Doc Hayward not being in prison! Funny thing is, though, I didn't notice any of this stuff till others pointed them out. I think that's because ep. 29 feels right *in the moment*. It's character motivations seem odd in the bigger picture but make sense in the context of the particular scenes. Ep. 16, on the other hand, fails that test. Also, the finale is very surreal and eerie, almost as if we're watching a heightened, purified vision of Twin Peaks which follows a dream logic rather than a real-world one. 16 seems to be trying to hard to be clever and can't do either.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:04 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:And Doc Hayward not being in prison!


Heh. Wrong thread, I know, but...it's not too hard for me to imagine a "between scenes" moment where Truman arrives at the Hayward house and finds Will, repentant and scared.

HARRY: How are you, Will? You look tired.
WILL: I didn't get much sleep. How are you, Harry?
HARRY: Well, a little busy at the moment. Had a hell of a night. But I hear you've been busy, too.
WILL: Harry--
HARRY: See, I get back to the station--after taking a kidnap victim to Calhoun, tucking in a wounded FBI agent, and hearing the damn bank exploded--and Ben Horne grabs me before I can get to the door, bandaged and demanding Will Hayward's head on his desk.
WILL: (anguished) Oh, God...
HARRY: Be straight with me, Will. Did you wallop Ben Horne?
WILL: Yes...
HARRY: (knowingly) You know, I should probably take you in. But it just so happens an agent of the federal government is in need of the best doc in town. So it would be mighty irresponsible of me to lock him up, wouldn't it?

(The REALLY funny thing is that, in the final scene, Will is in Ben's hotel, after clobbering him hours before!)

Funny thing is, though, I didn't notice any of this stuff till others pointed them out. I think that's because ep. 29 feels right *in the moment*. It's character motivations seem odd in the bigger picture but make sense in the context of the particular scenes.


Even if you didn't know Lynch was back--didn't know who David Lynch was--Episode 29 immediately feels different. It starts with the weird Lucy & Andy closeup and the strange angles in the conference room, and just builds from there. I'd actually be interested to hear from those who watched Episodes 28 and 29 as one long two-hour finale. I can't think of two episodes of the series that feel less of a piece.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby David Locke » Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:18 pm

Ha, I like your "scene," Reindeer! I could very much see that playing out.

As for your second point, I'd honestly say that the incredible shock of Episode 29, after what's come before it, may be the most thrilling part of the entire series, give or take the ending to Episode 14 (though maybe "moving" would be better than "thrilling" there).
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Re: Episode 16

Postby Dead Dog » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:13 am

I may be in the minority here, but I see this episode as a near disaster. It begins with a corny, pointless slo mo shot off our Merrymen walking through what looks like a city park, a cheap location they'd clearly just settled on. And then a glut of low angle, tilted shots to try and hide the fact they are in a park. Of course Donna is shot walking through the same park, so we have to have more extreme low angles to hide the fact that we are in the same location. And then our boys return to the same location to stand around and talk about what Bob is. Not sure why this couldn't have been done somewhere else.

As others have mentioned, it's pretty ridiculous that Leland would accompany Ben to the jail as his attorney, unless they'd asked Leland to go along with it in order to get Ben back behind bars, off screen of course.

But the worst part to me is Leland committing suicide by ramming his head into a door. It's just dumb and very unrealistic. I get that there seems to be a forehead motif in the series, but why couldn't he have stolen a less than careful Andy's sidearm and shot himself in the forehead that way. He could have maybe hinted that he was remorseful over Laura's murder, and then shot himself. I don't like the drawn out scene with Coop leading him to the light, I don't think Leland deserved that, I don't like that he was basically absolved of guilt and the blame was put on a demonic spirit.

All in all, I think it's a weak entry and very disappointing considering what's at stake.
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Re: Episode 16

Postby djerdap » Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:05 pm

Dead Dog wrote:I may be in the minority here, but I see this episode as a near disaster. It begins with a corny, pointless slo mo shot off our Merrymen walking through what looks like a city park, a cheap location they'd clearly just settled on. And then a glut of low angle, tilted shots to try and hide the fact they are in a park. Of course Donna is shot walking through the same park, so we have to have more extreme low angles to hide the fact that we are in the same location. And then our boys return to the same location to stand around and talk about what Bob is. Not sure why this couldn't have been done somewhere else.

As others have mentioned, it's pretty ridiculous that Leland would accompany Ben to the jail as his attorney, unless they'd asked Leland to go along with it in order to get Ben back behind bars, off screen of course.

But the worst part to me is Leland committing suicide by ramming his head into a door. It's just dumb and very unrealistic. I get that there seems to be a forehead motif in the series, but why couldn't he have stolen a less than careful Andy's sidearm and shot himself in the forehead that way. He could have maybe hinted that he was remorseful over Laura's murder, and then shot himself. I don't like the drawn out scene with Coop leading him to the light, I don't think Leland deserved that, I don't like that he was basically absolved of guilt and the blame was put on a demonic spirit.

All in all, I think it's a weak entry and very disappointing considering what's at stake.


I completely agree with you. I always had problems with this episode, but the last time I saw it I thought it was by far and away the worst of the "golden era" of the show (pilot, episodes 1 - 16, 29) for reasons that you mention. The final act makes little to no sense when it comes to both character motivations and plot resolutions, while the direction is just laughably over-the-top with so many slow motion sequences and canted angles (Tim Hunter is no Terry Gilliam). Cooper conveniently remembering the killer's identity with the help of the old waiter is the definition of an anti-climax and a deus ex machina, along with the silly overt literalism of Lynchian visual storytelling from episode 2, which has been mentioned quite a few times here. The one good point is that Ray Wise truly gives it his all, although I much prefer his performance in both episode 14 and Fire Walk With Me, the latter in particular correcting much of what went wrong with this hour (namely downplaying the incest angle). And I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority here when saying that MacLachlan's "Into the light, Leland!" speech is pretty cringeworthy and undeserved.

Oh how I wish Lynch had directed this. I bet he would have done with this script exactly the same what he did with the script for episode 29 - put it on some table and do his thing. Both scripts have very similar weaknesses in my mind.

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