Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

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Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:46 pm

Let's talk the giant, the room-service waiter, Leland's white hair, the flashback to Laura's murder and whatever else you want to analyze, discuss, or criticize from this episode.
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby Jonatan Silva » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:54 pm

If I'm not mistaken it's the longest episode of all 30. I think it's also the most Lynchinian. It still keeps the secret of whom killed Laura Palmer but all things begin to make sense and some questions are answered. The symbols are more intense in this episode and Lynch - who directed - puts his hands on it and gives a kind of identity that appears on the series.

The apperance of the Giant reforces the role of Man from another place. Both of them represent the two side: Giant is the god and dwarf is evil. The Giant helps Dale to solve the question of Laura's murder - the dwarf makes a weird confusion. Although the way things happened, the season two could've worked very well if the mystery wasn't solved so quickly. I love Twin Peaks 'til the last scene but it could have survived more on TV.

I've just rewatched it and I've seen it as a movie and it looked as MD and LH for me.
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby LostInTheMovies » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:12 pm

Jonatan Silva wrote:If I'm not mistaken it's the longest episode of all 30. I think it's also the most Lynchinian. It still keeps the secret of whom killed Laura Palmer but all things begin to make sense and some questions are answered. The symbols are more intense in this episode and Lynch - who directed - puts his hands on it and gives a kind of identity that appears on the series.

The apperance of the Giant reforces the role of Man from another place. Both of them represent the two side: Giant is the god and dwarf is evil. The Giant helps Dale to solve the question of Laura's murder - the dwarf makes a weird confusion. Although the way things happened, the season two could've worked very well if the mystery wasn't solved so quickly. I love Twin Peaks 'til the last scene but it could have survived more on TV.

I've just rewatched it and I've seen it as a movie and it looked as MD and LH for me.


I'm not sure about the Little Man. I think the reason people see him as evil is that in FWWM he's laughing with Bob and described as the "arm" of Mike - which Mike has told us he cut off because it was evil. But in the same film he is clearly battling against Bob, and the role he plays for Laura is a positive one. (Also when else is division a GOOD thing in Twin Peaks? This leads me to doubt Mike's bad arm story.) And on the show he is cryptic but still helpful in providing clues for Cooper. As the show hints and the film reveals, he and Laura's spirit are allies. I can see him being a somewhat amoral force, but I don't see him as evil.

As for the giant & the Little Man...I go back & forth on this but I kind of like the idea that when he giant says "one and the same" he isn't ONLY referring to he room-service waiter, he's maybe also referring to the Little Man. They could both be manifestations of Mike. This would also explain why the giant isn't necessary in FWWM (although there's probably a real-world explanation for it too). Again, I'm not really sold on this part myself...but I do think the Little Man generally serves a positive function.
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby Rami Airola » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:08 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:I'm not sure about the Little Man. I think the reason people see him as evil is that in FWWM he's laughing with Bob and described as the "arm" of Mike - which Mike has told us he cut off because it was evil. But in the same film he is clearly battling against Bob, and the role he plays for Laura is a positive one. (Also when else is division a GOOD thing in Twin Peaks? This leads me to doubt Mike's bad arm story.) And on the show he is cryptic but still helpful in providing clues for Cooper. As the show hints and the film reveals, he and Laura's spirit are allies. I can see him being a somewhat amoral force, but I don't see him as evil.


How is the Little Man battling against Bob? All he does is he unites with the One-Armed Man to get the garmonbozia from Bob. I think they unite because as it was said in the series, the only one Bob is afraid of is Mike. Mike and Bob used to kill together, and I think Mike was the one with the bigger authority even back then. Mike wouldn't necessarily have the same authority over Bob without his evil side, so he unites with his evil side to school Bob.

Perhaps it even isn't about Mike or the Little Man getting the Garmonbozia because it belongs to them, but perhaps it is all about just not allowing Bob to have the joy of consuming the pain and suffering he has caused. The only way for Mike to do that is to temporarily unite with his evil side and use his authority over Bob to stop him, and he might even be reluctant to get the Garmonbozia but that is the only way. And in the end it is The Little Man, who consumes it. Only Bob and the Little Man have been seen either harvesting or consuming the Garmonbozia. The One-Armed Man has quite certainly used to harvest and/or consume it in the past. Others seem to have no desire to be part of that. They don't want to taste pain and suffering. And if I recall correctly, there is a behind the scenes photo where it is Bob who uses the spoon to feed the Little Man. Maybe we can see this as the Antichrist feeding Satan, or something like that :D

The Little Man giving "clues" to Cooper doesn't necessarily mean anything. He could very well be something like Hannibal Lecter who gives clues to Clarice even if he still is as evil as he has always been.



By the way, I wonder if, when filming the European ending to the pilot episode, David consciously or subconsciously saw Bob as the arm of Mike. When Mike shot Bob, he felt pain and collapsed to the floor. There was clearly some sort of a thought of an unison between these otherwordly-like characters, and if David didn't exactly yet know what the funciton of Bob and Mike was, but he still had this line about cutting the evil away by cutting the arm of, and showing this clearly evil man, Bob, who Mike is against, he might have the idea of the arm continuing "living" already at that point. But perhaps when the mythology of Bob and the Little Man was more defined, he saw the huge potential for the Little Man being the Arm and he chose to show that in the film.

If what Mike said is true, I wonder if we ever see who God and The Devilish One are. If he wasn't lying, then in the world of Twin Peaks there is God, something that is the ultimate authority, the highest of all that is good. And there is someone Devilish who has been the ultimate influence for Mike when he was still evil. I don't think he meant Bob, as he said "I too have been touched by the devilish one", so I think Bob was also touched by that same being. What if The Little Man actually is the Devilish One? What if Bob also cut his arm off, there would be another Little Man walking around? Oh my, what if the Doppelganger of The Little Man is actually the arm of Bob! :shock:



(darn, I should watch your analysis again as whenever I'm writing things here I'm not sure if that's my own thought or a thought you have already played with, and the thought of me writing things to you you have already said embarasses me :D )
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:45 am

Rami Airola wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:I'm not sure about the Little Man. I think the reason people see him as evil is that in FWWM he's laughing with Bob and described as the "arm" of Mike - which Mike has told us he cut off because it was evil. But in the same film he is clearly battling against Bob, and the role he plays for Laura is a positive one. (Also when else is division a GOOD thing in Twin Peaks? This leads me to doubt Mike's bad arm story.) And on the show he is cryptic but still helpful in providing clues for Cooper. As the show hints and the film reveals, he and Laura's spirit are allies. I can see him being a somewhat amoral force, but I don't see him as evil.


How is the Little Man battling against Bob? All he does is he unites with the One-Armed Man to get the garmonbozia from Bob. I think they unite because as it was said in the series, the only one Bob is afraid of is Mike. Mike and Bob used to kill together, and I think Mike was the one with the bigger authority even back then. Mike wouldn't necessarily have the same authority over Bob without his evil side, so he unites with his evil side to school Bob.

Perhaps it even isn't about Mike or the Little Man getting the Garmonbozia because it belongs to them, but perhaps it is all about just not allowing Bob to have the joy of consuming the pain and suffering he has caused. The only way for Mike to do that is to temporarily unite with his evil side and use his authority over Bob to stop him, and he might even be reluctant to get the Garmonbozia but that is the only way. And in the end it is The Little Man, who consumes it. Only Bob and the Little Man have been seen either harvesting or consuming the Garmonbozia. The One-Armed Man has quite certainly used to harvest and/or consume it in the past. Others seem to have no desire to be part of that. They don't want to taste pain and suffering. And if I recall correctly, there is a behind the scenes photo where it is Bob who uses the spoon to feed the Little Man. Maybe we can see this as the Antichrist feeding Satan, or something like that :D

The Little Man giving "clues" to Cooper doesn't necessarily mean anything. He could very well be something like Hannibal Lecter who gives clues to Clarice even if he still is as evil as he has always been.



By the way, I wonder if, when filming the European ending to the pilot episode, David consciously or subconsciously saw Bob as the arm of Mike. When Mike shot Bob, he felt pain and collapsed to the floor. There was clearly some sort of a thought of an unison between these otherwordly-like characters, and if David didn't exactly yet know what the funciton of Bob and Mike was, but he still had this line about cutting the evil away by cutting the arm of, and showing this clearly evil man, Bob, who Mike is against, he might have the idea of the arm continuing "living" already at that point. But perhaps when the mythology of Bob and the Little Man was more defined, he saw the huge potential for the Little Man being the Arm and he chose to show that in the film.

If what Mike said is true, I wonder if we ever see who God and The Devilish One are. If he wasn't lying, then in the world of Twin Peaks there is God, something that is the ultimate authority, the highest of all that is good. And there is someone Devilish who has been the ultimate influence for Mike when he was still evil. I don't think he meant Bob, as he said "I too have been touched by the devilish one", so I think Bob was also touched by that same being. What if The Little Man actually is the Devilish One? What if Bob also cut his arm off, there would be another Little Man walking around? Oh my, what if the Doppelganger of The Little Man is actually the arm of Bob! :shock:



(darn, I should watch your analysis again as whenever I'm writing things here I'm not sure if that's my own thought or a thought you have already played with, and the thought of me writing things to you you have already said embarasses me :D )


No worries - I have been having similar confusions especially with how busy he boards have been lately! Anyway, my ideas on the LM trend pretty opposite. Certainly we agree that Mike in the form of the one-armed man is a) battling Bob and b) allied with the Little Man. I think it's fair to assume rom that, the Little Man is also battling Bob. The only counter evidence is seeing them laughing together at the table and entering the Red Room but that can be interpreted as sort of the formal preliminaries before a duel if you will. I think the key points are: the LM and Phillip both show Laura the ring - the same ring which leads to Bob not possessing (and killing) Laura in the end, and they demand garmonbozia from Bob in the end which the script suggests is an unwelcome surprise for Bob. Of course I have my theory that Bob is hosting pain & sorrow but doesn't feed in it, but I'll admit its kind of far out. And of course, his clues for Cooper pan out and help him catch Bob (much as I hate those on-the-nose interpretations!).

Is this to say that the LM is good or at least "not evil"? No, not necessarily. Like you say, he could be helpful when it suits/amuses him and he vs. Bob could be like the Twin Peaks equivalent of Stalin vs. Hitler. Plus we have the whole pesky "arm = evil" lore from the show which (along with openly accusing Bob) makes the film's Mike very hard to reconcile. But what in saying is if we can't say definitely that the LM is NOT evil we also can't say definitively that he is.

Perhaps when the 2016 scripts leak we will find out (sorry, that was a downer haha...)
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby Jonatan Silva » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:48 am

Rami Airola wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:I'm not sure about the Little Man. I think the reason people see him as evil is that in FWWM he's laughing with Bob and described as the "arm" of Mike - which Mike has told us he cut off because it was evil. But in the same film he is clearly battling against Bob, and the role he plays for Laura is a positive one. (Also when else is division a GOOD thing in Twin Peaks? This leads me to doubt Mike's bad arm story.) And on the show he is cryptic but still helpful in providing clues for Cooper. As the show hints and the film reveals, he and Laura's spirit are allies. I can see him being a somewhat amoral force, but I don't see him as evil.


How is the Little Man battling against Bob? All he does is he unites with the One-Armed Man to get the garmonbozia from Bob. I think they unite because as it was said in the series, the only one Bob is afraid of is Mike. Mike and Bob used to kill together, and I think Mike was the one with the bigger authority even back then. Mike wouldn't necessarily have the same authority over Bob without his evil side, so he unites with his evil side to school Bob.

Perhaps it even isn't about Mike or the Little Man getting the Garmonbozia because it belongs to them, but perhaps it is all about just not allowing Bob to have the joy of consuming the pain and suffering he has caused. The only way for Mike to do that is to temporarily unite with his evil side and use his authority over Bob to stop him, and he might even be reluctant to get the Garmonbozia but that is the only way. And in the end it is The Little Man, who consumes it. Only Bob and the Little Man have been seen either harvesting or consuming the Garmonbozia. The One-Armed Man has quite certainly used to harvest and/or consume it in the past. Others seem to have no desire to be part of that. They don't want to taste pain and suffering. And if I recall correctly, there is a behind the scenes photo where it is Bob who uses the spoon to feed the Little Man. Maybe we can see this as the Antichrist feeding Satan, or something like that :D

The Little Man giving "clues" to Cooper doesn't necessarily mean anything. He could very well be something like Hannibal Lecter who gives clues to Clarice even if he still is as evil as he has always been.



By the way, I wonder if, when filming the European ending to the pilot episode, David consciously or subconsciously saw Bob as the arm of Mike. When Mike shot Bob, he felt pain and collapsed to the floor. There was clearly some sort of a thought of an unison between these otherwordly-like characters, and if David didn't exactly yet know what the funciton of Bob and Mike was, but he still had this line about cutting the evil away by cutting the arm of, and showing this clearly evil man, Bob, who Mike is against, he might have the idea of the arm continuing "living" already at that point. But perhaps when the mythology of Bob and the Little Man was more defined, he saw the huge potential for the Little Man being the Arm and he chose to show that in the film.

If what Mike said is true, I wonder if we ever see who God and The Devilish One are. If he wasn't lying, then in the world of Twin Peaks there is God, something that is the ultimate authority, the highest of all that is good. And there is someone Devilish who has been the ultimate influence for Mike when he was still evil. I don't think he meant Bob, as he said "I too have been touched by the devilish one", so I think Bob was also touched by that same being. What if The Little Man actually is the Devilish One? What if Bob also cut his arm off, there would be another Little Man walking around? Oh my, what if the Doppelganger of The Little Man is actually the arm of Bob! :shock:



(darn, I should watch your analysis again as whenever I'm writing things here I'm not sure if that's my own thought or a thought you have already played with, and the thought of me writing things to you you have already said embarasses me :D )


This point of view of Bob being Mike's arm is really interesting. When Bob is shot by Mike, Mike himself got down on knees because the pain. I think the duality of Mike and Bob is the key to understanding Laura's murder and where Bon and Mike came from. We know who killed Laura but it's not clear why it happened.
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby kafard » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:51 pm

But... Who is Bon!?
A french little guy named : Dam.
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby Jonatan Silva » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:02 am

kafard wrote:But... Who is Bon!?


Bob
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby Jonah » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:21 pm

Hmmm, I'm surprised I haven't commented on this episode before, as it's very much one of my very favourites. (Was there another thread/topic about this episode? I seem to recall posting about it before and reading posts by others on it.) I love everything about it, and though I would maybe rate the Pilot higher, this is really where Twin Peaks began for me!

As much as I love it, it is interesting to note that this episode is really when a lot of viewers at the time began to turn away from the show - and even Lynch himself. People were disappointed and annoyed that the killer wasn't revealed in Season 1's cliffhanger, but they were downright angry and disgusted that the killer still wasn't revealed in this, the Season 2 premiere. Couple that with the fact that Cooper's shooter also wasn't revealed - AND add in the slow-moving opening scenes, not to mention all the supernatural stuff, and the backlash towards the show really began here, long before the weak episodes later in the season.

It's with this episode that much of the mythology and an overt presence of the supernatural really comes into the show. I love the slow, plodding opening scenes with Cooper on the floor of the Great Northern, Senior Drool Cup first appearing, and then of course The Giant. And I love the mid-episode sequence where the camera slowly moves along the length of the table, over the doughnuts, and we see trees and the light from Sparkwood and 21, as Cooper lays out exactly what happened that night. Just a brilliant episode culminating in a very intense and visceral scene where Ronette remembers the night she and Laura were abducted - and we see BOB killing Laura.

I think this episode, while a little meandering and overlong at times, and certainly frustrating to viewers who are only watching to get answers to Who Killed Laura Palmer?/Who Shot Agent Cooper? etc., is Lynch - and Frost - at their pinnacle of expanding storytelling possibility and weirdness. It makes me wonder how amazing a then-Season 3 premiere episode could have been, how it might have introduced even more seemingly out-of-left-field surreality, and possibly NOT have even resolved some of the Season 2 cliffhangers (at least not right away) much like this one didn't with who shot Coop.
Actually, now that some time has passed, I like "The full blossom of the evening".
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby LostInTheMovies » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:28 pm

Re-watching Twin Peaks from my least favorite to favorite episode...

Previously: Episode 6 (http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=44099#p44099)

No episode has been a greater roller coaster for me than the season two premiere. The first time I watched the series, I'm pretty sure loved it; in fact I think more than any season 1 episode this may have been the one that truly hooked me, demonstrating not only that the show had promise but that it would deliver on this promise. The second time I watched the series, I definitely didn't like it. Everything seemed to endlessly drag and nothing led anywhere (and I'm not even talking about the waiter scene, which I still found amusing and hypnotic even on that rewatch)! The third, fourth, fifth, etc times I had a more nuanced opinion, shifting back and forth between frustration and appreciation. When I made my video series on Twin Peaks, I expressed that uncertainty, devoting an entire chapter to this episode to detail its flaws as well as its many strengths. Episode 8 is the only Lynch entry I considered placing below a non-Lynch entry on this list but ultimately I elevated it by the same criterion I apply to Twin Peaks as a whole: I value the highs of a work more than its consistency. So many classic moments are stuffed inside this double episode: the aforementioned waiter and his equally slow compatriot, the giant; Lynch’s nightmarishly visceral spin on the purely conceptual Ben-walks-into-Audrey's-room cliffhanger from the season finale; Leland popping out from behind a dresser with white hair and show tunes on his brain; the Horne brothers dancing gleefully to their demented lawyer's ditty; Maddy snapping her glasses as a hilarious gesture of Lynchian revolt (or so I assume); Maj. Briggs in that same diner a half-hour later, gracefully extending his vision of a familial palace to his wayward son, in a scene that singlehandedly flips your perception of both characters (especially the formerly one-note father); the vaguely unhinged Hayward supper club, captured with what appears to be a queasy Steadicam (used in several spots during this episode, adding a new texture to Twin Peaks' visual repertoire which will predominate by Fire Walk With Me). And of course the final flashback reminds us of the pitch darkness at the heart of the story, bringing back the forgotten Bob and Ronette in one fell swoop while giving us what feels like the closest look at Laura we've ever gotten. She's all over this episode in a fashion unusual for this rewatch (the only similarly saturated episodes so far might be 16 and - more indirectly - the middle of episodes 3 and 5). Even though she is frequently referred to throughout non-Lynch episodes, somehow she always feels more like a device there, whereas here she feels like a presence. This season premiere emphasizes how important she was to Lynch's conception of Twin Peaks, the most overt manifestation of a dark cloud overhanging the entire melancholy town. Her ghost even seems to haunt scenes in which she isn't explicitly mentioned. Episode 8 is characterized by that distinct feeling Lynch evokes in his work. Impossible to verbalize or codify, it envelops the viewer from the first frame of the show. Tonight that mood capture me completely, like a long-needed massage or a drink of cold water at just the right moment. After twenty-four non-Lynch episodes, many very good, I was more than ready for my slice of Lynch, and so I ended up enjoying 8 as much as I ever have. However, I still see its flaws even if they didn't particularly bother me on this viewing. Practically every other scene contains lengthy descriptions and explanations of events that have already transpired. This emphasis on reiteration rather than plot advancement, combined with Lynch's woozy, glacial pacing, slows the episode to a crawl only occasionally as purposeful as the opening sequences. I can totally see why people would love this, considering it their favorite episode and the turning point toward a much deeper and richer series, and I can totally understand why others would feel very disappointed, assuming the show was not going to live up to the distinctive promise of its pilot. For me, the notorious season two premiere belongs at the bottom of the Lynch episodes and at the top of everything else.

Next: The Pilot (http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=44215#p44215)
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby Jonah » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:43 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:I can totally see why people would love this, considering it their favorite episode and the turning point toward a much deeper and richer series, and I can totally understand why others would feel very disappointed, assuming the show was not going to live up to the distinctive promise of its pilot. For me, the notorious season two premiere belongs at the bottom of the Lynch episodes and at the top of everything else.

(http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=44215#p44215)


Great review. I fall into the considering this one of my favourite episode camps, though I can see its flaws and appreciate that it does indeed drag at times. But I love it, and for me, as I've said before, the "REAL" Twin Peaks - as I think of it - always starts with this episode, and after Episode 2, this is the one I begin eagerly awaiting during a rewatch. There's so much I love about this episode - from that opening scene in the Great Northern to the closing moments with Ronette; but one thing I also appreciate is, even with the recaps in the narrative (obviously designed to bring forgetful or new viewers up to speed), that Lynch manages to introduce these with stylish visual panache, such as the long tracking shot of the doughnuts on the table interspersed with the trees and the red traffic light when Cooper's recounting what happened to Laura that night.

Can't wait to read your review of Episode 9, an episode I've been thinking about a lot lately especially for those two "main" Lynchian scenes - Donna with the Tremonds, and Maddy/Bob after the "Just You & I" song.
Actually, now that some time has passed, I like "The full blossom of the evening".
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby David Locke » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:25 am

It's an interesting episode, that's for sure. I do like how it charts a new, darker and more supernatural course for the show -- and yet it feels a bit too long. There are just so many scenes set in the hospital with endless monologues that don't impress particularly much and endless, endless re-capping of what happened the night before, and it just becomes tedious for a bit. Not enough to sink the episode or anything, but just compared to the ep's high points, its less intriguing material is all the more dry and dreary -- it's an unusual episode because of the way it pivots between the banal, soap-opera realism of Frost's Episode 7 and the uncanny surrealism of Lynch's style. It has the unpleasant task of having to deal with all the baggage of Frost's cliffhanger-crazed finale. In this respect, it's more burdened and less "free" than the other Lynch episodes, so no wonder why its likely the weakest. One more complaint: I don't know why but I just find the Giant's clues silly. It's all worked out in the narrative well enough, and we check each box along the way, but I don't find it that interesting because it's all so left-brained the way these clues translate into Coop's waking reality... and just the way they're worded ("a man in a smiling bag") seems more almost a parody of Lynchian obtuseness than the real thing itself.

And yet there's so much good stuff in this 90 minute episode. Most of it's already been mentioned, but I particularly love everything with Leland. The last few scenes of the ep -- the Hayward-Palmer dinner replete with poetry reading and Leland singing, Audrey's prayer, and Ronette's terrifying vision -- are brilliant and some of the show's finest scenes.

By the way, a word about that vision of Laura's murder that closes the episode. It's incredibly scary -- above all, it's certainly trying to scare us -- but I don't think that makes it inherently superior to the less scary, more operatic, still tremendous FWWM version of same. All in all I prefer FWWM's take on it, not just because it's longer and more detailed and thus more powerful and wrenching, but because it has an emotional poignancy that the version here lacks. This one leaves you feeling terror at the evil of BOB, but it doesn't really evoke any pathos; indeed, the vision of blood-soaked Laura screaming almost makes her into a simple BOB-like scary ghoul instead of a very human victim. It's incredibly effective, but more one-dimensional than FWWM's immensely emotional and Baroque and multi-layered take on the scene.
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:54 am

I can see that, David. But also in context, by the end of the episode Laura is still a cipher we are figuring out... In FWWM it can be defined. Basically, in Sept 1990 this is still an active mystery.

This is a tough episode to review as a whole... What Peaks fan doesn't love it? And it has so many indelible images that will define the series, or reinforce what was established with the pilot of episode two. But I suspect it is because of the first half and last half hours. But what half hours they are!!

I know I seem like the first season cheerleader, but that is only in retrospect of reviewing the construction of each episode as a whole. I too, was at my most fevered high watching the first half of season two. And the premiere might be the most anxious and excited I was for an episode. Which is strange... Mostly because any fevered fan already knew that we weren't getting an answer to Who Killed Laura. Newsweek, TIME and newspapers already gave us the details... A Giant would be there, Cooper had his best one, and BOB reenacts the murder at the end. All revealed before this episode even aired! So why was I still excited? I guess it was because it was more about falling in line with the characters and wanting to see what would happen.

Visually, the episode first and last half hour is a knockout too. The lush reds, dark shadows, deep wood browns evoke a nightmare and fairy tale at the same time. What was also interesting was the framing of the Cooper and Audrey characters. With the return of the series, and the answering of the cliffhangers, these two are answered right away ( well, right away in Lynchian time). And they also close out the show before the Ronnette vision.

But my objective problem with this episode is the middle section, mainly the seemingly redundant hospital scenes. Also, at the time I felt a cringe of someone emulating Lynch. "Hot damn, that pie's good!" I distinctly remember as feeling off and not as organic as the first season. And Donna in the jail felt the same.

I was also taken aback by the father character, I think his name is Leland. The white hair was a shock, along with Donna's appearance... And it already felt like we were watching a new season, not a continuation. And as much as I liked Ray Wise, I was beginning to feel like they might not kniw what to do with the character... And do we really need the Palmers in this show? It's beginning to feel like a downer! (Um, I think they found a way to make it work.)
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby Jonah » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:45 am

I agree some of it dragged - but I was mostly okay with that. I wonder would Episode 8 have been more kindly received had it been shortened to one slightly long episode? Or even broken up into two episodes?

I never had a problem with the Donna scene (though it didn't really work, I always kind of viewed it as Laura's sunglasses having an effect on her and/or her trying too hard to emulate Laura to keep James from falling more deeply for Maddy) - and I liked Leland's white hair! I do, though, agree this episode didn't always feel like it was directed by Lynch, particularly in the middle sections. Still, I loved it, and I think 8 and 9 run together quite well. In fact, I really think right through Episode 14, this first half of Season 2 is really prime viewing. 15 and 16 are okay too, but after that it REALLY feels like a new season -or a new show! (You know, the strangest thing about Season 2 is how long it feels in comparison to seasons of shows today, maybe because there's SO much going on, in so many parts - and how different ALL of it seems in stages to the preceding parts. So the first stretch 8 - 16 different than Season 1 and kind of closes an arc, then we've got almost a defacto third season with Episodes 17 - 23/24, a really bad one at that. Then a fourth season with the home run of 25 - 29. Season 2 really does feel like about three seasons in one!)
Last edited by Jonah on Thu May 11, 2017 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Actually, now that some time has passed, I like "The full blossom of the evening".
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Re: Episode 8 (Season 2 Premiere)

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:16 am

Lots of great comments here.

- I think the whole episode feels like it was directed by Lynch but at times it feels like he's not really into whatever the scene's supposed to be doing so he just exaggerates the hell out of it and riffs on a little detail and it doesn't always work. Maybe this episode is the first really solid example of Lynch and Frost kind of drifting apart in some ways (although I think a lot of it still shows how they were able to complement each other at their best).

- Audrey is right-on about the colors. That One Eyed Jack's scene in particular is just a knockout, and nightmare + fairy tale is definitely the best way to describe it. It's a new set, right? It all feels so much more spacious and open-ended and terrifying than the room we see in the finale where it's like "Oh, Audrey's dad is here! Yikes!" but it's a fun cliffhanger-y thing. Here we really feel the dread of impending incest which is the perfect way, in retrospect, to set up season 2.

- I also agree that the train car scene in this episode serves a very different function from FWWM. This scene is all about Laura's death whereas the other, the closer you look, is more about her redemption. And of course there's the different points of view to consider: Ronette's hazy recollections vs. Laura's direct experience.

- I never quite got the complaints about Donna here. First of all, I think the stuff in the jail is fun and very Lynchian though I can see how others might be turned off by it. But within the narrative her actions make perfect sense. She's a confused teenage girl and always has been, as early as the pilot where she is making out and falling in love with her dead friemd's boyfriend less than 24 hours after she was found dead. To me, Donna's attempts to be a vamp (even if they were inspired by LFB's onscreen jealousy of Fenn and others) feel very logical and they also make a great segue into the Harold storyline.

- On the other hand, much as I prefer Maddy's look in this episode (and find the glasses-breaking thing hilarious) she's the one who feels like a whole new character, particularly as the character wasn't terribly well-defined in season 1. In fact, changing her hair is already enough to make us feel like continuity has been broken. If a character looks exactly the same as another character and you change a few physical things to distinguish them, I'm not sure it makes sense to change those physical things again (yeah, her hair is still black but now it's curly instead of straight, and Maddy is dressing more like Laura too). Especially when the character's personality is really just a broad sketch. It seems like Maddy doesn't get a chance to shine and carve out her own space until episode 13 by the lake with James...and that's a goodbye scene! Episode 8 makes me really feel like Lynch wanted Sheryl Lee on set but wasn't in love with the whole idea of an identical cousin/different character.

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