Episode 17

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Audrey Horne
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:58 am

Wow, on this board I'm starting to feel like an old fogie who can't keep up. You guys are laser sharp, and I can barely put a coherent sentence together.

It's funny, for years of having these episodes in my archaic videotapes, I never thought I'd find a resource for people actually discussing the little seen episodes of this part of the second season... Now it's all here in enormous detail.

I always found the origin of this episode fascinating. And Brock getting assigned this episode too. I can't remember now what made it into Reflections, and what was edited out. But I'm pretty sure she watched this episode right before being interviewed, and it was fresh in her mind. And it was really the outline and keeping on track before any of the backstage politics threw a wrench in the story lines. So it really is what Frost, Peyton, Engels wanted to do without interference. But you have to remember how fast and furious they were with getting these scripts into production. They didn't have the luxury of a Vince Gilligan, David Chase, or a Matthew Weiner in mapping out a whole season.

Looking back now in prepping questions for the Brock interview, and her memory is probably very fuzzy on this, it should have been asked if the wake was written the way it was because most of the actors were still in the dark about who the murderer was.
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Audrey Horne
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:10 am

Whoops, Nevermind. I'm confusing the Brock interview with the Tina Rathbourne ones.
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Agent Sam Stanley
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Agent Sam Stanley » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:24 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:Could be that the actors didn't know what the event was since the murder hadn't aired yet on tv. And they were still in the dark.


This is interesting. I don't know a lot about the filming schedules and how Lynch and Frost kept the secret before Ep. 14 aired.
Ep 17 (or the wake scene) was shot before eps 15 and 16? It's impossible the actors didn't know if they had already shot the two previous eps.
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Audrey Horne
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:08 pm

No, not shot before 15 and 16. Shot before 14 aired.

For instance, in 15 it is Big Ed swerving in the car in the shooting script. The actors were only receiving their scenes for their scripts... Although there are some stories from actors that said they got full scripts. But they may be thinking of episodes post Laura solved.
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Agent Sam Stanley
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Agent Sam Stanley » Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:35 pm

Nice. Thanks for sharing all the trivia. First time I'm reading this :)
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Re: Episode 17

Postby LostInTheMovies » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:41 am

Yeah, this is really fascinating, thanks Audrey!
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Re: Episode 17

Postby TwinPeaksFanatic » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:55 pm

When we think of the Palmer family it's often Laura's pain and Leland's demise that is the focus. However Sarah was a victim too. She was the only one left standing and was mostly in the dark about the true nature of her household. Thinking of her loss and ultimate loneliness makes her first scene in this episode particularly heartbreaking to me. I wrote a recap for the episode here ---- >

http://twinpeaksfanatic.blogspot.com/20 ... de-17.html

:D
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Gabriel
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Gabriel » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:48 pm

I can't do as good a job as Mr Locke or LITM at breaking down this episode and its myriad flaws, but this was, arguably the most important episode in the entire series. Why? Because this was make-or-break. If they'd got Lynch in as director and Mark Frost overseeing the script with him, they could have laid the foundations for the future of the show. If they'd have got this episode right, the show could have run for another three seasons. That Lynch and Frost (perhaps understandably) threw up their hands in frustration an went away for a few episodes' 'breath of fresh air' meant that the show returned with no sense of direction.

What would I have want wanted as a 'tag line' for this episode? Something along the lines of: 'If Leland didn't kill Laura Palmer, someone else would have.'

I'd have wanted a new antagonist introduced as a significant member of the community. I'd have killed off another significant character at the behest of the antagonist. I'd have loved to have seen corruption in the sheriff's station. More than anything, especially having read the diary, I thought the corruption in the town with which Laura was mixed up would have provided more than enough material for the show to continue.

Handled properly, it shouldn't have mattered that we found out who killed Laura. Laura's legacy should have been laying bare layer after layer of darkness in the town, both human and demon. Why was there no more investigation into Laura's secret life? Her abuse at the hands of Bob/Leland was just part of what she was involved with. With the secret diary reconstructed by Cooper and co, along with other diaries formerly in Harold Smith's possession, Cooper and co could have started on a journey into the real depths of corruption in Twin Peaks.

Episode 17 is an episode so bad that I feel it was the episode that killed the series. It threw out the Laura Palmer storyline, which was in no way finished and still really the pivot of the show, it introduced a friendship between Major Briggs and Cooper that we'd not really seen any evidence of before. I mean, I can understand Cooper going camping with Donna's dad, but Bobby's dad? Really? The mayor, returning for the first time since the pilot, by which time most viewers had forgotten he'd been in the pilot... his silly brother and the 'siren' fiancée whose seductive qualities are played for laughs when something genuinely sinister could have come from it. Audrey and Bobby have zero chemistry – had they ever even shared a scene before? – Audrey and Cooper's flirtation is simply dropped (or 'Bobbed' to use the ER analogy) and the show seems to give up.

No, the series didn't jump the shark in episode 17. It slashed its wrists and lay in the water waiting to be eaten by one.
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Audrey Horne » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:08 pm

I will say at the time I loved the Audrey Bobby scene. Because in the context she had just had the Cooper scene, and I think we were supposed to be disappointed, and then worried about what is she doing with Bobby. And then their follow up two episodes later when she dodges his kiss and ultimately you find out she was just playing him to help save Cooper. I thought it was a great fake out. When it was airing. (Of course they then follow it up with her partnering with him made zero sense. Ugh.)
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Gabriel » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:51 am

Audrey Horne wrote:I will say at the time I loved the Audrey Bobby scene. Because in the context she had just had the Cooper scene, and I think we were supposed to be disappointed, and then worried about what is she doing with Bobby. And then their follow up two episodes later when she dodges his kiss and ultimately you find out she was just playing him to help save Cooper. I thought it was a great fake out. When it was airing. (Of course they then follow it up with her partnering with him made zero sense. Ugh.)


Yes, Audrey unexpectedly suffered the worst from the closure of the Laura storyline. Effectively Audrey's second half of season two adventures could be called 'In search of something to do!'

The whole 'junior detective' storyline originally involving Donna, Audrey, James and Maddie sputtered out and really left these characters adrift. It's a shame. Nothing really interesting happens to any of them after this episode (Maddie was dead, obviously!)

Indeed, the biggest criticism I have is that Donna's best friend was brutally murdered less than three weeks earlier, yet all Donna does is behave like a jealous shrew over James and seems to forget Laura, even though she came within moments of Leland/Bob killing her as well. Audrey had been heavily dosed with heroin, yet shows no signs of withdrawal.

Everyone seems to get over everything too quickly. One of my best friends died last summer and I left town for two and a half months after the funeral. Deaths due to long term illnesses take families and friends a long time to get over; the murder of a young woman would scar everyone deeply for a long time to come. James ultimately did the most realistic thing and leave town (ignoring the Evelyn travesty!)
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Re: Episode 17

Postby laughingpinecone » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:53 am

Gabriel wrote:
Indeed, the biggest criticism I have is that Donna's best friend was brutally murdered less than three weeks earlier, yet all Donna does is behave like a jealous shrew over James and seems to forget Laura, even though she came within moments of Leland/Bob killing her as well. Audrey had been heavily dosed with heroin, yet shows no signs of withdrawal.

Everyone seems to get over everything too quickly. One of my best friends died last summer and I left town for two and a half months after the funeral. Deaths due to long term illnesses take families and friends a long time to get over; the murder of a young woman would scar everyone deeply for a long time to come. James ultimately did the most realistic thing and leave town (ignoring the Evelyn travesty!)

Indeed indeed. And that is, imho, a betrayal of one of the pillars the pilot was built on, ie the consequences of grief. I love all your ideas in your previous post for possible continuations, providing meaningful hooks for meaningful investigations.
My ideas were never as dynamic as yours, but I've always thought that if they wanted to keep to low-stakes, slice-of-life plots for a while like they did, they should've focused them on a common sense of mourning. Up to that point, the common denominator was characters wrecking their lives and making bad decisions under the shadow of Laura's mysterious death. So maybe from that point onwards they could've explored how that grief finally started to settle, or still didn't, or how the killer's identity stirred disruption and unease.
Heck it was the perfect setup to bring the Audrey vs Ben storyline to a climax, after the incest parallel at OEJ...
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Re: Episode 17

Postby laughingpinecone » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:55 am

Gabriel wrote:
Indeed, the biggest criticism I have is that Donna's best friend was brutally murdered less than three weeks earlier, yet all Donna does is behave like a jealous shrew over James and seems to forget Laura, even though she came within moments of Leland/Bob killing her as well. Audrey had been heavily dosed with heroin, yet shows no signs of withdrawal.

Everyone seems to get over everything too quickly. One of my best friends died last summer and I left town for two and a half months after the funeral. Deaths due to long term illnesses take families and friends a long time to get over; the murder of a young woman would scar everyone deeply for a long time to come. James ultimately did the most realistic thing and leave town (ignoring the Evelyn travesty!)

Indeed indeed. And that is, imho, a betrayal of one of the pillars the pilot was built on, ie the consequences of grief. I love all your ideas in your previous post for possible continuations, providing meaningful hooks for meaningful investigations.
My ideas were never as dynamic as yours, but I've always thought that if they wanted to keep to low-stakes, slice-of-life plots for a while like they did, they should've focused them on a common sense of mourning. Up to that point, the common denominator was characters wrecking their lives and making bad decisions under the shadow of Laura's mysterious death. So maybe from that point onwards they could've explored how that grief finally started to settle, or still didn't, or how the killer's identity stirred disruption and unease.
Heck it was the perfect setup to bring the Audrey vs Ben storyline to a climax, after the incest parallel at OEJ...
] The gathered are known by their faces of stone.
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Audrey Horne » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:35 am

I don't know - i guess there could be a way of making the characters contemplate and be burdened by the recent events that are technically happening in their timeline - but as a television show it also has to move forward at the same time. Two weeks after Laura's death is also half a year for viewers. So it's a trick of moving plot and keeping things fresh while also retaining its initial hook.
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Gabriel
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Gabriel » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:16 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:I don't know - i guess there could be a way of making the characters contemplate and be burdened by the recent events that are technically happening in their timeline - but as a television show it also has to move forward at the same time. Two weeks after Laura's death is also half a year for viewers. So it's a trick of moving plot and keeping things fresh while also retaining its initial hook.


Yeah, soaps did tend to move at breakneck speed back then. At least Little Nicky didn't age to a 20-something across season two! ;)
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Gabriel
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Re: Episode 17

Postby Gabriel » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:29 pm

laughingpinecone wrote:Indeed indeed. And that is, imho, a betrayal of one of the pillars the pilot was built on, ie the consequences of grief. I love all your ideas in your previous post for possible continuations, providing meaningful hooks for meaningful investigations.
My ideas were never as dynamic as yours, but I've always thought that if they wanted to keep to low-stakes, slice-of-life plots for a while like they did, they should've focused them on a common sense of mourning. Up to that point, the common denominator was characters wrecking their lives and making bad decisions under the shadow of Laura's mysterious death. So maybe from that point onwards they could've explored how that grief finally started to settle, or still didn't, or how the killer's identity stirred disruption and unease.
Heck it was the perfect setup to bring the Audrey vs Ben storyline to a climax, after the incest parallel at OEJ...


Thanks! :)

Yeah, like I say, the show post-episode 16 should have been 'The Legacy of Laura Palmer.' Interesting you should mention Ben and Audrey. Ben admitted he loved Laura in the show and, if we go by the Secret Diary, they had had sex (she'd probably had sex with Jerry Horne at one of the blindfolded orgies too.) And wasn't there a scene ultimately not shot in FWWM where Ben supplies Laura with drugs? Laura was a kind of surrogate 'daughter' to Ben as well, so the incest aspect is certainly mirrored.

Actually the other missed plot element was Josie Packard. I remember how intriguing it was, having only watched season one, to read the quite shocking portrayal of Josie in the Secret Diary. We knew Josie wasn't all she appeared to be, but, blimey...! Again, I'll probably be shot down for this, but they should have done an actress swap-er-oo when Josie ran away in the middle of season two – it's not like recasting never happened on US TV. The new Josie actress could have come back, killed Eckhardt and become a full-blown villainess.

Oh well. Nothing's perfect. I still loved the show, but Episode 17 definitely began a misfire.

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