General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

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N. Needleman
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby N. Needleman » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:46 pm

Jasper wrote:While her comments do seem to support the possibility that there could be more Twin Peaks, her musings really make it seem as though nothing is in the works at this time.


I really don't see it that way based on how she, Lynch and Frost behave in public, which is often very deliberate.

For over 20 years Lynch gave unequivocal 'no's to the question of new Twin Peaks. When his answers became more ambiguous some of us became suspicious. Then came Between Two Worlds, then Season 3.

Today Lynch shuts down any discussion of more TP by simply saying he 'won't talk about it' or variations on 'maybe'. Those answers are ambiguous. Sabrina Sutherland is his right hand. She's saying she wants more. So does Mark Frost. YMMV, but in all of that I see enough.
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Jasper
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jasper » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:15 pm

Well, I definitely don't know anything that anyone else doesn't know. I'm just trying to read the tea leaves (or coffee grinds) while hoping for a happy outcome.
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NormoftheAndes
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby NormoftheAndes » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:18 pm

Jasper wrote:Well, I definitely don't know anything that anyone else doesn't know. I'm just trying to read the tea leaves (or coffee grinds) while hoping for a happy outcome.


We all hope for a happy outcome :D but I think the exec. producer is about the last person you would ask if you wanted to know the truth about what was happening with a secretive production like Twin Peaks. Her answers certainly are linked to Lynch and Frost wanting season 3 to stand on its own and not be merely a spring-board to season 4 or whatever the next volume might be.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby baxter » Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:51 pm

Something else to consider: The monumental secrecy surrounding S3 provided expert training in subterfuge, conspiracy and outright lying for all involved in the production! I don't trust any of them :-D
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jerry Horne » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:13 pm

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Redlodge
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Redlodge » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:33 am

I noticed something new when looking at Hawk’s map yesterday. If you turn the map upside down the crescent moon looks an awful lot like Laura’s smile.

It’s strange how things keep jumping out at me the more I rewatch Season 3.

Some observations and opinions

When the good Laura enters the black lodge 25 years later she is vulnerable and Judy is able to grab her and send her to the Odessa reality far away from the good Cooper.
Laura whispers in Coopers ear “ You must find me and take me home . The bad Laura is in my mother Sarah, Judy is also there.
When you take me home it will destroy Judy, myself and the bad Laura but you must sacrifice yourself too.
This is why he says Huh ? Because she is telling him to kill her, her mother, and himself to set things right.
Sarah has Judy and the bad Laura doppelgänger hiding inside her.
When Cooper takes Laura to Twin Peaks in the Odessa timeline, Judy is still hiding inside Sarah Palmer but not in this timeline. This suggests that Judy can cross timelines. We also see this in part 3 when Judy is knocking on the door in the Naido and American Girl timelines. Alice Tremond May be a vehicle for Judy to travel to the Odessa timeline or she is simply a lodge entity guarding the Palmer house. I even thought Alice could be talking. talking to Judy not her husband. This would also account for the mans voice when Bad Cooper calls Phillip Jeffries.
When Laura comes out of the fog of the other reality she has been in for 25 years she realizes who she really is and what happened her. The memories and the terror of it all rushes back into her and she Screams ! Since two negatives cancel each other out the negative energy from Odessa Laura shorts out her the negative Laura inside Sarah/Judy destroying Laura and Judy (two birds) and Cooper (one stone)
I realized this when Sarah was watching the boxing match on tv. Judy was manipulating time and hibernating inside a few moments In time over and over. In a word she was hiding in those few moments to protect herself from the Fireman’s plan and Cooper. This is why she can’t destroy the photo of Laura because where she is time exists as just a few moments and it keeps resetting.
Major Briggs was probably somewhere in a similar space all those years.
Cooper knows he will have to sacrifice himself in the Odessa timeline I think this may be part of the reason he acts so focused and unlike the Cooper we all know and love. By him entering the Black Lodge 25 years prior he caused the release of his doppelgänger and Bob. Since Bob is out and using Bad Cooper to find Judy, good Cooper must find Judy and destroy her before Bob can get to her. I believe Bob wants to mate with Judy and create more eggs like we saw in episode 8.
By sending Bad Cooper/Bob to the Sheriff’s Station instead of the Palmer house where Judy was the Fireman knew Lucy would kill Bad Cooper and Freddie would kill Bob. Leaving Cooper to deal with Judy.
This was the Fireman’s plan all along. When the Fireman said “Listen to the sounds.” If you listen closely I think the sounds translate to “We live, inside a dream” or they may be coordinates to the spot where Cooper and Diane cross over.

There are several things that occur after they cross over that are worth mentioning.
When they first cross over from day into night there is absolutely no reaction from either one of them. This is very strange and could be caused by something not unlike what happens when someone is near a portal. They know something happened but they are not certain what at first.
I think when Diane sees her doppelgänger outside the motel she remembers what they are doing there. I also believe the reason she sees here double is that she may be trying to place herself in a Dissociative State because she has some idea of what’s about to happen. It could also be that she is trying to keep that part of herself in tact from becoming Linda.
When Cooper/Richard wakes up the next day he is in a different motel in a different location. It could be possible Diane’s double is still at the other Motel.

I had other thought as well, maybe the reason that Cooper and Diane are driving the old Lincoln before they cross over is because they are in that time period. Then when Cooper wakes up the next day the time has reset to a future time period.
It’s interesting that Cooper/Richard is driving the same model Lincoln that Bad Cooper was driving when he has his accident.

Another thing is that when Cooper and Mike go to Jeffries to find Judy, Jeffries show them where to find here and the Owl Cave symbol changes from 7 to 0 to 8 which is the address of the Palmer house.



Ultimately this is all speculation and only Lynch and Frost know the truth of it.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby KyleRickards » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:28 am

Dana Ashbrook is live on TalkRadio now chatting to Jamie East!


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bowisneski
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby bowisneski » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:03 am

I'm not 100% sure this is the place to post this, but this seemed the best thread choice.

During Laura's funeral when Bobby says “All you good people... you wanna know who killed Laura Palmer? You did! We all did.” it, in the light of a question like who is the dreamer, creates a meta context that Mark Frost and David Lynch killed Laura Palmer. Not only did they kill her, but all of us out in the ether who watched the show were accomplices because the murder of Laura Palmer had to occur for our entertainment. We're no better than the townsfolk yet, by the end of the original series, we had all fallen in love with the people of the town and essentially absolved them, and ourselves, of culpability. I think that's why people focus on the pop sensibilities of the show because most audience members don't really want to really think about incest, rape, and murder.

Adding to that idea is Lynch, like Cooper, has become obsessed with Laura and has spent 25 years trying to remind us of her death, while also trying to bring Laura back as an active part of the story. A sort of resurrection like the one pursued by Coop. This starts immediately with the her appearance at the end of the International Pilot, showing her murder in the Season 2 premier, then her appearance during the Season 2 finale, followed by taking us back in time to Fire Walk with Me as well as to an indeterminate time in the Red Room where she might be at peace, and then possible literally resurrecting her in Season 3(which seems negated in the end as nothing him or Frost can do will bring her back). By doing all of that and ending Season 3 the way they did reminds us that the fun and entertainment of the story comes out of the horrible abuse and death of Laura Palmer and there really is no way to remedy that.

I also think it's interesting that every iteration ends with Cooper and Laura. The International Pilot, the Original Series(technically, this one is a little stretch since the show proper ends with Cooper and Laura appears in the coffee), FWwM, and The Return(whether you count the scene at the Palmer house or the credits as the end).
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:27 am

The Cooper/Laura dynamic is fascinating, and his obsession with her has become increasingly a surreal/fantastical extension of the classic film noir Laura, from which her name (as well as Waldo and Dr. Lydecker in S1) came. In the film, the detective falls in love with the dead Laura from reading her diary and talking to her former acquaintances; she ultimately ends up being alive, just as Dale so desperately wants Laura Palmer to be. It’s not clear on TP whether Dale is actually in love with Laura as Dana Tierney’s character was in the film, but he definitely has a strange fixation on her that he didn’t have with, say, Teresa or Maddy or the many other victims he’s encountered throughout his career. Why Laura? Are the two somehow intertwined on a supernatural level?
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby bowisneski » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:39 pm

That's a very good question. I would say it's both Lodge related as well as personal exposure to the case.

On the supernatural side, first we know, despite Albert dismissing the idea, that Coop has some sort of psychic connection to Laura. While Albert says it could be half the high school girls in the US, Coop has the very specific detail that she is preparing a great abundance of food. They also have their shared dream experience that Coop only discovers both of them had when they find her secret diary. I would say that connection comes from the future and past reverberations of them both ending up in the Lodge. Especially since, as stated above, Peaks has always ended with both of them there.

Though there is also a way to explain it not being supernatural(or at least not completely) thanks to the main Deer Meadow investigation going to Chet. With Coop only doing a follow up on Teresa, he doesn't get as involved in the case as he did with the cases of Caroline and Laura. I'd say that Laura also sticks with him more because after Teresa he sense the killer will strike again, so he spends roughly a year with that feeling before jumping in. He is also more able to connect to her through the townspeople and her diary, unlike Teresa who had no friends or family to speak of. And of course with Caroline he actually spent time with her and fell in love with her. I'd say the lack of connection to Maddy is just that she becomes an addition to a body count that springs out of Laura's murder. She was a person he actually knew, but didn't really connect with.

Maybe he's also drawn in to what appears to be a pure and innocent person who was never given a chance to be that. She's an ideal idea to him, just like she is to Lynch. Both of them seem to acknowledge but ignore(not exactly the right word, but I can't think of a better one) the darkness underneath.

Another thing I find interesting is how put off Coop is at Jacoby suggesting that perhaps Laura wanted to die. He can't even consider that even though we see that specifically in FWwM. Coop tries to take that away from her at least twice, first by telling her not to take the ring and second by actually attempting to change history. He doesn't consider how much worse of an option life could be for her or that is her decision.

And man, I've read synopsis's but have never seen Laura. I need to get around to that.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:16 am

bowisneski wrote:Maybe he's also drawn in to what appears to be a pure and innocent person who was never given a chance to be that. She's an ideal idea to him, just like she is to Lynch. Both of them seem to acknowledge but ignore(not exactly the right word, but I can't think of a better one) the darkness underneath.

Another thing I find interesting is how put off Coop is at Jacoby suggesting that perhaps Laura wanted to die. He can't even consider that even though we see that specifically in FWwM. Coop tries to take that away from her at least twice, first by telling her not to take the ring and second by actually attempting to change history. He doesn't consider how much worse of an option life could be for her or that is her decision.


Interesting. I think Dale’s biggest Achilles’s heel is his inability to assimilate his own dark side. In Part 18, we see a mirthless Mr. C-esque Cooper still struggling to play the knight in shining armor, while Laura/Carrie is far too wise to pretend to be the hero of any story (“I tried to keep a clean house. Keep everything organized. It’s a long way. In those days, I was too young to know any better”). I think his discomfort with both Laura’s and his own dark sides makes Dale the weaker character. You can’t fight an enemy you don’t truly recognize. Laura takes the ring and confronts Bob; Dale has some dude in a green glove do the dirty work in some action-movie happy-ending fantasy.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby LateReg » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:42 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
bowisneski wrote:Maybe he's also drawn in to what appears to be a pure and innocent person who was never given a chance to be that. She's an ideal idea to him, just like she is to Lynch. Both of them seem to acknowledge but ignore(not exactly the right word, but I can't think of a better one) the darkness underneath.

Another thing I find interesting is how put off Coop is at Jacoby suggesting that perhaps Laura wanted to die. He can't even consider that even though we see that specifically in FWwM. Coop tries to take that away from her at least twice, first by telling her not to take the ring and second by actually attempting to change history. He doesn't consider how much worse of an option life could be for her or that is her decision.


Interesting. I think Dale’s biggest Achilles’s heel is his inability to assimilate his own dark side. In Part 18, we see a mirthless Mr. C-esque Cooper still struggling to play the knight in shining armor, while Laura/Carrie is far too wise to pretend to be the hero of any story (“I tried to keep a clean house. Keep everything organized. It’s a long way. In those days, I was too young to know any better”). I think his discomfort with both Laura’s and his own dark sides makes Dale the weaker character. You can’t fight an enemy you don’t truly recognize. Laura takes the ring and confronts Bob; Dale has some dude in a green glove do the dirty work in some action-movie happy-ending fantasy.


Great stuff all around, Bowisneski and Reindeer. Very interesting parallel with the green glove there, too.
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bowisneski
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby bowisneski » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:32 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Interesting. I think Dale’s biggest Achilles’s heel is his inability to assimilate his own dark side. In Part 18, we see a mirthless Mr. C-esque Cooper still struggling to play the knight in shining armor, while Laura/Carrie is far too wise to pretend to be the hero of any story (“I tried to keep a clean house. Keep everything organized. It’s a long way. In those days, I was too young to know any better”). I think his discomfort with both Laura’s and his own dark sides makes Dale the weaker character. You can’t fight an enemy you don’t truly recognize. Laura takes the ring and confronts Bob; Dale has some dude in a green glove do the dirty work in some action-movie happy-ending fantasy.

That sounds spot on to me too. And this probably sounds ridiculous, but I'd just never thought about/put together that Laura definitely incorporated her darkside.
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N. Needleman
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby N. Needleman » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:06 pm

I'd agree with all that except what I just addressed in the glove thread - the green glove was the Fireman's idea, and it was specifically deployed against only BOB. Not Judy. The reason being, some problems and issues - like tragedy, incest, death, failing - are bigger than a superpowered boss fight. (A fight I love, BTW)

Cooper couldn't accept that Laura had to die, had chosen to die, and that her story could not be rewritten by his own long-suffering savior complex. He could not accept that you can't both confront the larger evils of the world (Judy) and rework what's come before in any meaningful way. He insisted on doing that part his way because he couldn't accept his own past failings or how the world failed Laura, and so he failed himself again - and in doing so, took away Laura's own victory at the end of FWWM. (Though maybe not for long, assuming Laura remembers at the end of Part 18)
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby LateReg » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:23 am

N. Needleman wrote:I'd agree with all that except what I just addressed in the glove thread - the green glove was the Fireman's idea, and it was specifically deployed against only BOB. Not Judy. The reason being, some problems and issues - like tragedy, incest, death, failing - are bigger than a superpowered boss fight. (A fight I love, BTW)

Cooper couldn't accept that Laura had to die, had chosen to die, and that her story could not be rewritten by his own long-suffering savior complex. He could not accept that you can't both confront the larger evils of the world (Judy) and rework what's come before in any meaningful way. He insisted on doing that part his way because he couldn't accept his own past failings or how the world failed Laura, and so he failed himself again - and in doing so, took away Laura's own victory at the end of FWWM. (Though maybe not for long, assuming Laura remembers at the end of Part 18)


All of that is really good reasoning, and it all makes sense to me. The one thing I will say is that the green glove being the Fireman's idea to rid the world of a secondary evil (Bob compared to Judy) still does not negate the fact that Cooper is mostly standing around during that scene while someone else does the dirty work, which involves destroying the very thing that is partly a representation of Cooper's darkside (Bob in Mr. C, or Mr. C himself at the hands of Lucy before Cooper even arrives). So I think both interpretations can work side by side. On a strictly plot-level, the idea was certainly The Fireman's working with both Cooper and Briggs. But it's hard not to also read the scene on a deeper level, which you've done in one way here while others have in another way earlier in the thread, and it's just interesting that both theories seem to work simultaneously, addressing slightly different aspect of what the whole thing's about.

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