Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[Venus]

Watched Part 7. Predictably it was my favourite so far. i say predictably because I'm clearly one of those fans who, shock horror, wants to see some kind of continuation of the original and much more of the original characters.

It still doesn't have the magic of the original for me. It's kind of weird to see them actively investigating Laura's murder again. I mean don't get me wrong, that is the storyline that I've always loved the most but it's still a solved murder. Not complaining here, just stating the obvious which is that it was always going to be very difficult to create the same palpable excitement of the original.

Diane wasn't anything like I pictured her. I didn't like the character (Venus, we've finally found something to disagree on!) but again, can't really complain about that!

Thought actually Richard Beymer was looking good. I'd scene a couple of screen captures of him before The Return aired and he looked much worse.

Am hanging in there anyway. Still don't fine myself actively excited about the next episode but maybe that's because I'm old and jaded.

I'm also predictably one of those fans who want to see some kind of continuation or the original. Diane doesn't seem to be like anyone pictured her from what I've read. I never said I liked her so we don't necessarily disagree on that one! I just liked the line. She seems rather hyper and over the top but I'm guessing we don't yet know why she's like that. Maybe it is only when it involves Cooper and whatever happened between them.

Yep, we're hanging on in there like the proverbial bats in a cave (maybe owl cave) and we'll see where it goes. Let's hope it is both strange but also wonderful (and eps 1 to 6 were just a bad dream).

[LateReg]

Well, not true. I loved every part (the 6th part most of them all!), but was a little underwhelmed by the new one exactly because of how procedural, obvious and, I guess, markfrostian it sometimes felt. It was still a very nice part, but it lacked some of that artsy fartsy magic.

I'm sorry but "Not true" does not apply simply based on your own experience. I am talking about the general consensus which is extremely evident.
I never said "all".

I respect that you have a different opinion than most, but that doesn't disprove my point.

Well, for my part, I must say that the reason Part 7 hit the spot wasn't simply because it felt more like Twin Peaks, but because it felt like a natural progression from the previous 6 parts. I liked it so much because it was a payoff in which the plot accelerated. I think a lot of people who were already on board and loved Part 7 and its return to Twin Peaks also feel that the piling effect of the previous parts led to their exhilaration.

[mlsstwrt]

I think being off key is a huge part of what's going on here. It doesn't feel quite like anything else, and so some of us don't know what to do with it. I sometimes don't know what to do with it. But I see it as being something fresh and new, Lynch realizing the fullest, broadest potential of himself, or as Nevins said, he's evolved to a more extreme version of himself. That's what it seems like to me. But as for the interviews, I thought those were perfectly off key. A news parody, intentionally.

Yes, I think it's turning all the fans into more extreme versions of themselves too. Next time there's a Twin Peaks convention, all the attendees will have turned into peculiar-looking trees!

That's pretty good.

Whatever criticisms I have of The Return I do have to say it's utterly unique and I have to admire Lynch and Showtime for that alone. There's nothing worse than artists pandering to mass audiences and I fully believe that the likes of Lynch should have creative freedom, whatever the outcome of that is. There's so much garbage, formulaic TV and The Return certainly isn't that. I'd much rather see a bold failure than a tepid success. And I'm not saying that The Return is a bold failure. Yet.

By the way, is nostalgia really such an ugly word? It seems to be used pejoratively by many. I don't see anything that wrong with nostalgia, it can be kind of beautiful.

Edit: Venus, apologies for misrepresenting what you said. We'll find something to disagree on one of these days

[IcedOver]

I watched Part 7 this morning, and as the day has gone on, I'm finding myself feeling more negative towards it (when I initially thought it was okay/average) and more positive towards Part 6, which I initially hated but re-watched last night. The whole continuity error with the diary pages, and another comment I read about Cole and the whole fingers and words thing (I didn't pay too much attention to that on first viewing) makes me realize that this show is pretty slipshod. Apparently Lynch and Frost didn't re-watch the original show aside from the finale, but they have to know that they should get details right, as fans will surely call them on it (Frost's many inconsistencies in his book are being called out too).

[mlsstwrt]

I watched Part 7 this morning, and as the day has gone on, I'm finding myself feeling more negative towards it (when I initially thought it was okay/average) and more positive towards Part 6, which I initially hated but re-watched last night. The whole continuity error with the diary pages, and another comment I read about Cole and the whole fingers and words thing (I didn't pay too much attention to that on first viewing) makes me realize that this show is pretty slipshod. Apparently Lynch and Frost didn't re-watch the original show aside from the finale, but they have to know that they should get details right, as fans will surely call them on it (Frost's many inconsistencies in his book are being called out too).

Yeah some people have commented on how meticulous Lynch is with details. I don't see that at all. There were so many inconsistencies in the original even. Also things like The Secret Diary of Laura Palmer. Unless Bobby has killed two people, it goes down a totally different way. And I know Lynch didn't write it but his daughter did. Stuff like that grates.

[alreadygoneplaces]

By the way, is nostalgia really such an ugly word? It seems to be used pejoratively by many. I don't see anything that wrong with nostalgia, it can be kind of beautiful.

I'm one of the ones who wanted a 'new' show which built on or expanded the old TP world and mysteries- I loved the old Peaks as much as anyone, but saw it as so rooted in a particular time and place, and I just couldn't see how it could work in 2017 unless it was reimagined or adapted in some way. I'm very happy for many of the old characters to be let go, even some treasured ones- they had their moments- but they needed to make room for new characters, new stories, and even new places. So, in that sense I'm delighted with how the show has gone so far. As for nostalgia as a dirty word... I know what you mean- nostalgia itself is not inherently a bad thing, but if nostalgia had been allowed to take over and become a driving force in the project, I think it would have been awful. I think they've struck the right balance between the old and the new, using nostalgia sparingly- allowing it to be beautiful, you could say...

I still have some issues with show, but on the whole I'm loving it. In the spirit of this thread though, here's my token negative contribution... the palpably 'digital' look. I really don't like it. I think it undermines a lot of the atmospheres Lynch is so adept at creating. I had this problem with Inland Empire too, despite the conceptual significance of how it was shot.

[mlsstwrt]

By the way, is nostalgia really such an ugly word? It seems to be used pejoratively by many. I don't see anything that wrong with nostalgia, it can be kind of beautiful.

I'm one of the ones who wanted a 'new' show which built on or expanded the old TP world and mysteries- I loved the old Peaks as much as anyone, but saw it as so rooted in a particular time and place, and I just couldn't see how it could work in 2017 unless it was reimagined or adapted in some way. I'm very happy for many of the old characters to be let go, even some treasured ones- they had their moments- but they needed to make room for new characters, new stories, and even new places. So, in that sense I'm delighted with how the show has gone so far. As for nostalgia as a dirty word... I know what you mean- nostalgia itself is not inherently a bad thing, but if nostalgia had been allowed to take over and become a driving force in the project, I think it would have been awful. I think they've struck the right balance between the old and the new, using nostalgia sparingly- allowing it to be beautiful, you could say...

I still have some issues with show, but on the whole I'm loving it. In the spirit of this thread though, here's my token negative contribution... the palpably 'digital' look. I really don't like it. I think it undermines a lot of the atmospheres Lynch is so adept and creating. I had this problem with Inland Empire too, despite the conceptual significance of how it was shot.

Good point, well made!

I feel exactly the same about the look. I find it difficult to 'argue' with people about this because I have no technical knowledge. But I can say that the effect for me is that it looks like a documentary or something. I really, really don't like it and I don't understand why Lynch is so anti-film and so pro-digital. Is it just because it's easier to work with? This is something I'm never going to understand.

[Gabriel]

Good point, well made!

I feel exactly the same about the look. I find it difficult to 'argue' with people about this because I have no technical knowledge. But I can say that the effect for me is that it looks like a documentary or something. I really, really don't like it and I don't understand why Lynch is so anti-film and so pro-digital. Is it just because it's easier to work with? This is something I'm never going to understand.

It's cheaper than film, basically, and more stable when it comes to effects work. What type of camera you use and what type of lenses affects the ultimate look. Most 'filmed' TV shows look filmed because of the above choices and post production grading. Little material on TV uses film these days, even though it's shot in order to look filmic. On the other hand, if you're shooting a daytime soap opera or documentary, you might use a different camera or lenses. Lynch and Deming seem to have specifically chosen cameras and lenses that give an overtly electronic look; the sort you associate with as live studio dramas. It doesn't work aesthetically for me because the actors seem to be playing for filmed drama while the look is daytime soap opera. Effects look fake, performances seem forced or emphasised wrongly, stunts such as car crashes look staged...

They've made a bold artistic choice, but it just doesn't work for me.

[Metamorphia]

By the way, is nostalgia really such an ugly word? It seems to be used pejoratively by many. I don't see anything that wrong with nostalgia, it can be kind of beautiful.

I'm one of the ones who wanted a 'new' show which built on or expanded the old TP world and mysteries- I loved the old Peaks as much as anyone, but saw it as so rooted in a particular time and place, and I just couldn't see how it could work in 2017 unless it was reimagined or adapted in some way. I'm very happy for many of the old characters to be let go, even some treasured ones- they had their moments- but they needed to make room for new characters, new stories, and even new places. So, in that sense I'm delighted with how the show has gone so far. As for nostalgia as a dirty word... I know what you mean- nostalgia itself is not inherently a bad thing, but if nostalgia had been allowed to take over and become a driving force in the project, I think it would have been awful. I think they've struck the right balance between the old and the new, using nostalgia sparingly- allowing it to be beautiful, you could say...

I still have some issues with show, but on the whole I'm loving it. In the spirit of this thread though, here's my token negative contribution... the palpably 'digital' look. I really don't like it. I think it undermines a lot of the atmospheres Lynch is so adept and creating. I had this problem with Inland Empire too, despite the conceptual significance of how it was shot.

Good point, well made!

I feel exactly the same about the look. I find it difficult to 'argue' with people about this because I have no technical knowledge. But I can say that the effect for me is that it looks like a documentary or something. I really, really don't like it and I don't understand why Lynch is so anti-film and so pro-digital. Is it just because it's easier to work with? This is something I'm never going to understand.

Film is expensive and unwieldy.

Digital is not the vastly inferior medium it used to be 15 years ago though when it started changing over. I'd say the slightly porno look you get from The Return at times comes about in part because of the trademark Lynch stilted performances and the fact lots of it is natural light. The last episode looked a lot more cinematic.

[Metamorphia]

Good point, well made!

I feel exactly the same about the look. I find it difficult to 'argue' with people about this because I have no technical knowledge. But I can say that the effect for me is that it looks like a documentary or something. I really, really don't like it and I don't understand why Lynch is so anti-film and so pro-digital. Is it just because it's easier to work with? This is something I'm never going to understand.

It's cheaper than film, basically, and more stable when it comes to effects work. What type of camera you use and what type of lenses affects the ultimate look. Most 'filmed' TV shows look filmed because of the above choices and post production grading. Little material on TV uses film these days, even though it's shot in order to look filmic. On the other hand, if you're shooting a daytime soap opera or documentary, you might use a different camera or lenses. Lynch and Deming seem to have specifically chosen cameras and lenses that give an overtly electronic look; the sort you associate with as live studio dramas. It doesn't work aesthetically for me because the actors seem to be playing for filmed drama while the look is daytime soap opera. Effects look fake, performances seem forced or emphasised wrongly, stunts such as car crashes look staged...

They've made a bold artistic choice, but it just doesn't work for me.

Not strictly true. The Arri Amira is the baby brother of the Arri Alexa, which is a top tier camera yielding very cinematic results - see films like Skyfall, Sicario, Birdman, the new Blade Runner (cinematographer Roger Deakins said he switched over to digital in 2011 because he couldn't tell the Alexa apart from film anymore). The differences between the Amira and Alexa are pretty minute.

The thing you're getting at with lenses is I imagine the deep depth of field, which I guess is true for some of The Return, although E7 bucked the trend in that regard.

[BOB1]

Count me in on the anti-digital support group ! As much as I got fascinated by Inland Empire (and as much as - like Gabriel - I found it messy and undisciplined), I never ever liked the look of it, and here we have the same. It's a minor issue for me and probably I wouldn't bring it up myself, but definitely feel this way!

Besides... yeah, I liked Part 7 for sure. But man, this god-awful potato head again?!?!? What f'ing for?!

Out of interest - anybody NOT won over by Part 7? I know a couple of people have expressed dissenting views already.

Now I liked it but for sure not the most. Part 5 was definitely better for me. Kind of funny but this one lacked mystery? Funny because I'd rather complain about the previous parts that goodness knows what was going on there and why and here I come moaning for 'more mystery'! Well I think it's this:

"This story is eventually going to have to quit expanding horizontally and start moving forward." (...) Epsiode 7 was, for me personally, just what the doctor ordered.

Sure things. And it was needed and wanted. It really kicked off forward. But still, there was a lot of interesting things in this horizontal expansion. In Part 7 they were basically tying the loose ends together.

So OK, I don't have any complaints about this episode but I also don't remember any particularly good scenes. And yes, I did like the floor sweeping!


p.s.

The big difference for me was that MD absolutely gripped me even BEFORE the 'reveal'. (...)

It's the same with The Usual Suspects. The twist was brilliant but I'd thoroughly enjoyed the movie UP TO the twist. The twist just turned a massively entertaining movie into a genius one. I'm not sure if something that bores you can be made retroactively good by virtue of threads being pulled together beautifully later on. And I'm not convinced that even if everything eventually comes together wonderfully in The Return it's going to make the first few episodes more watchable.

I totally get what you're saying nd these are two great examples. That's what I meant before by supporting the opinion that "study is an option" and so is rewatching.


p.p.s.

I've remarked elsewhere that giving an artist total control and a whopping budget doesn't guarantee the artist's best work. As a rule, limitations and structure are good way of focusing a talent. We can all see from Lynch's past work – especially the likes of The Elephant Man and The Straight Story – that he's an artist who's mastered the craft of filmmaking and made it his own. Here, it feels like the artist is in control, but everything feels unfocused; kind of all over the place. It's like a bon vivante who likes a glass or two of wine drinking twelve glasses and and going for a thirteenth and not knowing when to stop.

That's how I feel from the beginning, too, even when I like some of the things Lynch's been doing in The Return. Artistic freedom is a good thing and all but if you want optimal results, the artist needs to fight for something. When the artist has everything he desires, he gets unfocused.

[Agent327]

Can anyone explain the appeal of Diane, that has people on this forum going crazy?

When we saw 10 seconds of her in the previous episode, people were already declaring their love for the character, which makes me think that it's once again a case of a lot of people being very easy to please.

In this episode, we actually get some insight into the character.

She is sleeping with someone 30 years younger than her, which.....had she been a guy, would automatically qualify her as "a pig" and people would condemn it.
She is constantly swearing, and not in a very original way. Constantly smoking and drinking, again hardly appealing or original.
She tells Tammy to go f herself, completely without justification, when Tammy is just being is nice and professional. I realize that some people here aren't big fans of Bell's acting chops, but that should be completely irrelevant in that situation.

Can someone explain the appeal?

[mlsstwrt]

Can anyone explain the appeal of Diane, that has people on this forum going crazy?

When we saw 10 seconds of her in the previous episode, people were already declaring their love for the character, which makes me think that it's once again a case of a lot of people being very easy to please.

In this episode, we actually get some insight into the character.

She is sleeping with someone 30 years younger than her, which.....had she been a guy, would automatically qualify her as "a pig" and people would condemn it.
She is constantly swearing, and not in a very original way. Constantly smoking and drinking, again hardly appealing or original.
She tells Tammy to go f herself, completely without justification, when Tammy is just being is nice and professional. I realize that some people here aren't big fans of Bell's acting chops, but that should be completely irrelevant in that situation.

Can someone explain the appeal?

I can't! Fully agree with you. Just another thing I find off about The Return, and not in a good way.

I'm actually struggling to find any likeable characters though or even characters you love to hate (like Leo in the original). Not saying you can't have a good show without likeable characters. You can argue that The Sopranos didn't have any. But there aren't any characters I'm fascinated by so far. Or if there are, I'm fascinated by them becauase they were in The Original.

[IcedOver]

As far as the look, this digital and the digital of "Inland" are nothing alike. "Inland" was shot with a camcorder, and he liked it because of the portability. I really wish this show had been shot with a similar camcorder and had the same or similar look. Clarity and surrealism don't go together.

[mlsstwrt]

As far as the look, this digital and the digital of "Inland" are nothing alike. "Inland" was shot with a camcorder, and he liked it because of the portability. I really wish this show had been shot with a similar camcorder and had the same or similar look. Clarity and surrealism don't go together.

That's interesting. I hate the look. I don't understand how people can prefer it. I couldn't agree more with your last statement. I loved the sometimes ethereal quality of the original. The feel is so off for me now. I'm not saying people are wrong to prefer it, I just don't get it.

Also, and again not complaining just observing, it feels so wrong to be watching TP in the summer. Well, maybe not so wrong with The Return, but I always watched the original during autumn/winter.