Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[RedRum]

If you kind of like it or kind of not like it then you are simply not addressing the heart of the issue.

Which is what?

The complete and utter disconnect from the original series and offshoot material including but not limited to 'Laura Palmer’s Secret Diary', Dale Cooper's Dianne Tapes, and not forgetting The Secret History...

You may like Season three for all the Lynianisms, but whatever your opinion may be about the season or the series in it entirety, no one can deny the severe and obtuse direction Season three has taken, to the point of being absolutely a separate entity to the original.

[mlsstwrt]

If people are offended by criticism toward Lynch & Frost in a thread named "The profoundly disappointed support group", then why
read and comment in it? It almost like "I am ok that you are disappointed in how season 3 turned out but you have to be disappointed in a way
that is ok with me and people who like the show". A bit arrogant one could claim.

I actually think that is sort of what he's saying, but not quite. More along the lines of: since you liked Lynch, Frost, Twin Peaks, and (presumably) those on this forum prior to season 3, perhaps you could start with the assumption that our disagreement on TP:TR is based on a good faith difference of opinion, and not jump to conclusions about the disingenuous motives, lack of taste, mental deficiencies, etc. regarding those parties?

Maybe that isn't the purpose of this thead, but from what I can gather, those here left for a refuge from those on the rest of the forum who:
a. liked the show; and
b. refused to give them the sort of charitable assumptions I mentioned above regarding their dislike of the show.

So on the one hand, you could say: some people on this forum demeaned us and questioned our motives for disliking season 3, so let's make a thread where we do the same thing to those who like the show.

Or, you could say: some people on this forum demeaned us and questioned our motives for disliking the show, so let's make a place where we can vent our frustrations and voice criticism of the show, free of the negative, uncharitable reception our opinions received from the rest of this forum.

I think this thread was created with the latter approach in mind, but I don't think Needleman is wrong to say that it is rife with elements of the former.

The latter, definitely. Hadn't even seen anyone demeaning 'us' when I made the thread. I think the first I heard about that was from Venus. But I have seen evidence of it in other threads.

I don't know what to say, Needleman seems to take criticism of Lynch quite personally. Lynch is a man I respect enormously, one of my true idols. So is my father but I can see that he is in decline too (they're about the same age). No, The Return is not prima facie evidence of this and many TP fans seem to believe this is Lynch's greatest achievement. But I think that it's terrible and put that largely down to what's going on with Lynch as a person. I'm not trying to insult the man but just like boxers should know when to quit, maybe artists should too.

Of course if you are one of those that think The Return is amazing then you should just dismiss this without further thought, since my argument that Lynch is in severe decline is predicated on a falsehood, i.e. that The Return sucks.

[Guardian]

Maybe this thread isn't that much of an discussion thread, and more of a vetilation thread.
I think it's good that people can come to this thread and vent their frustration with The Return, and even if it's speculation of Lynch's mental state.
I mean, when some of us feel that Lynch/Frost has made an amateurish, unpolished, mockery, skit-show of the show: that means a lot to us, that is very personal, and that we maybe hold the most dearly of any show; A show we so desperately wanted a fantastic continuation of, but instead feel like we've been given the middle finger.
Well, maybe it's not that strange that some try to understand how this could have happened, what it means, and what the hell happened to Lynch/Frost who has destroyed the world of Twin Peaks.
Maybe ventilating is some sort of therapy, I don't know. I don't think Lynch gives a damn anyways.
One can only speculate, and it can be fun making ridiculous interpretations of what this scene, or that scene says about Lynch's personal life.

I honestly don't think Lynch was depressed or in an bad mental state or anything during writing/filming. I think it was reported that he seemed in a very good mood and shape during filming.
And also, he has stated that "if you don't love what you're doing, stop doing it", and that the enjoyment is in the making.
Sometimes I enjoy taking a dump, but the product is still crap. I flush it down the toilet. Maybe Lynch/Frost just lost the ability to distinguish between quality and crap.
Maybe they sacrificed quality over quantity, 18 hours is a huge task for anyone to write/direct/edit.

I belive there will be a "behind the scenes" and "making of" documentary coming out after The Return ends, and I have a feeling it will shed some light on stuff we have been wondering about; maybe it will be much more enjoyable to watch than what the show itself.
At least the actors don't need to try to act anymore, so it will feel more engaging in that sense.

On a side note, I have ZERO hope that the remaining 5 episodes will suddenly be of any better quality, feel any more like Twin Peaks, or be more enjoyable than what these first 13 parts has been.

[boske]

My dad is about the same age as Lynch (a year or two younger). He is a great guy, and I very much enjoy his company. He is still working because he wants it, not because he really needs to. Is he as sharp as he was 20 years ago? Probably not, but he is not yet that far off from there, it is hard to notice any difference.

There are professional athletes who go past their prime, it is natural. You cannot stop time. So eveybody's mileage may vary. I do not think this though to be the case here. I think Lynch can still create great work, but the Return appears to have been settled with some dubious decisions that puzzle and escape me. I have posted wide and far on Dugpa about them.

This thread is great, and I occasionally pop in here while still posting in other threads. I may withdraw here more permanently now.

It clogs the thread when some people on any critique of the Return descend here like metal jellyfish, er, sentinels from the Matrix, and start banging with their attempted sophistry and parlour games. I am not entertaining that anymore.

[Mallard]

Maybe this thread isn't that much of an discussion thread, and more of a vetilation thread.
I think it's good that people can come to this thread and vent their frustration with The Return, and even if it's speculation of Lynch's mental state.
I mean, when some of us feel that Lynch/Frost has made an amateurish, unpolished, mockery, skit-show of the show: that means a lot to us, that is very personal, and that we maybe hold the most dearly of any show; A show we so desperately wanted a fantastic continuation of, but instead feel like we've been given the middle finger.
Well, maybe it's not that strange that some try to understand how this could have happened, what it means, and what the hell happened to Lynch/Frost who has destroyed the world of Twin Peaks.
Maybe ventilating is some sort of therapy, I don't know. I don't think Lynch gives a damn anyways.
One can only speculate, and it can be fun making ridiculous interpretations of what this scene, or that scene says about Lynch's personal life.

I honestly don't think Lynch was depressed or in an bad mental state or anything during writing/filming. I think it was reported that he seemed in a very good mood and shape during filming.
And also, he has stated that "if you don't love what you're doing, stop doing it", and that the enjoyment is in the making.
Sometimes I enjoy taking a dump, but the product is still crap. I flush it down the toilet. Maybe Lynch/Frost just lost the ability to distinguish between quality and crap.
Maybe they sacrificed quality over quantity, 18 hours is a huge task for anyone to write/direct/edit.

I belive there will be a "behind the scenes" and "making of" documentary coming out after The Return ends, and I have a feeling it will shed some light on stuff we have been wondering about; maybe it will be much more enjoyable to watch than what the show itself.
At least the actors don't need to try to act anymore, so it will feel more engaging in that sense.

On a side note, I have ZERO hope that the remaining 5 episodes will suddenly be of any better quality, feel any more like Twin Peaks, or be more enjoyable than what these first 13 parts has been.

Admittedly, even as someone who likes The Return, this is my favorite thread on this board. I like to see the gamut of opinions about this show, and this may be the best place for it on the entire web.

Having said that, as someone not profoundly disappointed, this isn't "my" thread, and I can't dictate its purpose. I can state that I feel it has drifted from its original intent. Here is the introduction to this thread from its creator:

"The title says it all. There's a lot of heated and interesting debate/discussion going on in the main Season 3 threads.

This thread isn't meant for that. It is, as the title suggests, a thread in which the small minority of us who are experiencing feelings of extreme disappointment and even disillusionment can band together and rant/moan/complain to our heart's content without being told that we're not getting it."

Based on this, I don't think the point was:
"...and while we rant/moan/complain, we'll just say that the others don't get it, and that if they weren't delusional, or senile, or weren't suffering from stockholm syndrome, they'd be just as disappointed as we are."

Basically, this thread can be a refuge from those who treat other's opinions of the show uncharitably, or a place where the mistreated throw that lack of charity right back in those people's faces. It can't be both.

[mlsstwrt]

That's right Mallard. We're not out to offend anyone and that can be demonstrated by the fact that I didn't expect so many people in the 'pro' camp (to oversimplify) to enter this thread, let alone stay here. I've enjoyed a lot of posts from you and several others. But the psychology of some people in this thread is weird (but interesting). I do think some people in here are insecure about their views. Well a work doesn't need to be universally lauded to be great. In fact it's maybe rare that unanimously adored works of art ARE that great. So be secure in loving The Return and don't feel the need to talk us round to your viewpoint. Or deride us for not having the intellect to appreciate what we're seeing.

[N. Needleman]

I just don't feel anyone can claim to be a victim of incivility while insisting the only reasonable discussion you can have includes regularly calling the rest of us delusional or calling the showrunner a demented old man. That is what I find intellectually dishonest, not mere criticism or disappointment.

Rip the thing to shreds as you like, but if your goto has to be calling the guy a senile fool or your fellow posters blind denialists- I don't think that's a discussion looking to be heard or understood or respected.

You'll notice, too, I've never tried to talk you around about liking the show. I know how you feel. I just don't think it has to be predicted on toxicity to make itself heard.

[Venus]

I just don't feel anyone can claim to be a victim of incivility while insisting the only reasonable discussion you can have includes regularly calling the rest of us delusional or calling the showrunner a demented old man. That is what I find intellectually dishonest, not mere criticism or disappointment.

Rip the thing to shreds as you like, but if your goto has to be calling the guy a senile fool or your fellow posters blind denialists- I don't think that's a discussion looking to be heard or understood or respected.

You'll notice, too, I've never tried to talk you around about liking the show. I know how you feel. I just don't think it has to be predicted on toxicity to make itself heard.

Why do you visit this thread N Needleman?

[yaxomoxay]

Needleman I think we all do deeply respect Lynch. It's not disrespectful to say he's not the artist he was and his faculties are in decline. Happens to all of us if we live long enough.

Woah. You're basing a psychological analysis on just a piece of work?
Now, one thing is saying that DKL is not the artist you like anymore. One thing is saying that he's mental faculties are gone.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jonah]

[Aqwell]

Now, one thing is saying that DKL is not the artist you like anymore. One thing is saying that he's mental faculties are gone.

About that...



Sorry, just kidding.

[AhmedKhalifa]

More and more, as I read posts by many people who keep staunchly defending this season, it becomes clear that many, not all, of them are against any criticism of Lynch whatsoever, to the extent of dissing the original series because it wasn't "pure Lynch"! I find this viewpoint mind-boggling, to be honest, since the collective love and admiration for the original series is what made THE RETURN possible.

Sent from my Lenovo A2020a40 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Reindeer]

To be fair, I think many members of the public have been seriously questioning DKL's mental stability since the release of Eraserhead. Honestly, scenes in TP:TR actually feel like a return to his earliest filmmaking style, with the painfully deliberate pacing and deadpan dialogue delivery of Henry &co. It may be less mental decline than the fact that he's 70 years old and doesn't have anything to prove, so he's not compromising his personal style anymore.

In any event, I think things on this board are inevitably going to become increasingly divided over the last five Parts. I really hope things stay civil, particularly in this thread. I just want to thank mlsstwrt and many of the other contributors in this thread -- while I haven't agreed with many of the opinions expressed herein, checking in on this thread has been an essential part of my TP:TR experience, and not in a gloating "haha, these guys aren't enjoying it and I am" kind of way. The arguments and opinions in this thread have challenged me to analyze why certain things connect with me, and to reflect more on what does and doesn't work in this season. And I really admire all of you guys for sticking it out to the end, despite how painful that must be, so you can form a fully-reasoned opinion based on the entire work.

[LateReg]

To be fair, I think many members of the public have been seriously questioning DKL's mental stability since the release of Eraserhead. Honestly, scenes in TP:TR actually feel like a return to his earliest filmmaking style, with the painfully deliberate pacing and deadpan dialogue delivery of Henry &co. It may be less mental decline than the fact that he's 70 years old and doesn't have anything to prove, so he's not compromising his personal style anymore.

I was going to post something along these exact lines. The Return is very much a return to Lynch's earliest days as a filmmaker. Inland Empire was as well. None of this seems to represent a decline, but rather a filmmaker without compromise who is able to indulge his vision to the fullest. Inland Empire was heralded as Lynch's purest, most unfiltered and experimental feature since Eraserhead, and The Return continues along that path. He's not exactly who he was in the middle of his career, but I do think he is definitely who he was at the start of it, which is wonderful. I think it's very important to note this as it is a positive rebuttal to the notion that he is in decline. For better or worse, he's just no longer playing the game. It's very pure, imo.

I also want to echo something Mallard pointed out earlier. By all accounts from people on the set and friends who speak of him in interviews, Lynch has been in great spirits and remains very active. That's great to hear.

[Nikki Grace]

I see very little difference in the quality of work now with David Lynch as a filmmaker-artist in 2017 compared to him during his "peak" - whenever that was. If there is a misfire element to The Return then it's in the way it's released and structured. I would say that Lynch is ahead of the curve with the things he's doing with structure, but it's just so unlike anything else on TV and so uncompromising for audiences that it will probably never be repeated in future.

I do find it hard to believe however that someone could watch Episode 8 and claim it's the work of a senile old man.