Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby dugpa » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:11 pm

Quick reminder to treat each other with respect. We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides.

Seriously though you are all nerds. Cut it out or find somewhere else to hang.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:26 pm

dugpa wrote:.
Seriously though you are all nerds.


Guilty as charged lol


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby dugpa » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:30 pm

Same here. Only a total nerd would spend 18 years of his adult life running a Twin Peaks fan site.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Soolsma » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:00 pm

*nibbles on popcorn*
I believe all these phenomena that our putted-up egos and busy ant minds persist in trying to label, categorize, penetrate, and comphrehend, all spring from this same uncanny source. This is the mother of all "others".
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:19 pm

AhmedKhalifa wrote:Some of the staunchest supporters of TPTR don't seem to hold the original TP in as high a regard as us older fans who watched it countless times and cherish it for its flawed beauty. I'm even getting the feeling that Lynch himself is almost being resentful to fans who adored the original, since it wasn't purely his vision in the first place. Instead, he's taking it back, so to speak, pushing it farther and farther away from its roots and towards what he thinks he should be doing now in accordance with how' he perceives himself and what critics expect of him, rather than honoring and enhancing the best aspects of the original. A sad, sad situation for us old fans.


Some of the taking it back I do believe is present. As far as honoring and enhancing the original, people have to take a step back and ask why that is necessarily important, and I believe Lynch is challenging us to do that. Why is it necessary to repeat the past? If this show tried to copy the rhythms, the look, the feel, the editing, the story structure of the original, would that make it any more valid? Would fans be happier knowing they got exactly what they expected and give Lynch an "A" on his report card?

I don't necessarily believe he had a duty to replicate the original, and clearly he didn't want to even in the movie. Much of this show is about the idea of time passing, things changing over time. Maybe at one point over the years when Lynch considered coming back to this show, he had in mind something that was more similar to the original. At this time, though, this is what he wanted to do. I think some of the characters reflect that, the ones who are in different places than they were 25 years ago. So is Lynch, and today maybe he just wants to film somebody sweeping up cigarette butts, or singing a song in his front yard. Maybe that is what "TP" means to him today. Who's to say that is any more or less valid than a recreation of the original would have been? You want Cooper? Nah, today he's been ripped in two, a saint and a demon. That's just the way it is.

Of course, we can dispute what Lynch has made of this show in and of itself, separate from the original. I'm still in the slightly disappointed camp for some shoddy filmmaking and some other things, but I'm trying to work through it because I really do want to like this show and mine all of its value, even though I do feel that it is probably past the point it could be a great work.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:20 pm

Venus wrote:
Yep, I said something similar to this a while back in the dim and distant past :) probably without the self indulgent bit, but there ya go. I'm not a Lynch fan. I've watched a lot of his work and it's intrigued me at times, freaked me a bit, interested me and really thats where I left it. I would say I a more of a TP fan in the fact that I like a bit of diluted Lynch and the world of TP. Full on heroin DKL isn't for me. It's interesting that if this was a straight 50/50 collaborative effort with Lynch and Frost then maybe it was the additional writers in the original series that seriously helped to craft it into what it was as a whole and maybe I've been crediting the wrong people all these years if TP3 is anything to go by. Sometimes in life all of the right collaborative forces meet at a point in time and magic occurs. It's all in the timing.

PS is anyone else still waiting for the 'poo to flow' as Kyle M put it? I'm waiting for some scary stuff but for me, it's not happened yet and I scare quite easily. (no boo jokes here please) :lol:


I've not heard this 'poo to flow' comment by Kale, it sounds droll AF tho. edit: Ohh, if there will be a villain equal to BOB. BOB never scared me. Richard, Mr C, The Woodsman, Sarah are all pretty :shock:

It's so hard to say what Frost's influence is on the show, and I don't think we can ever be certain. Lynch did leave Twin Peaks to work on Wild at Heart during Season 1- not 2. But I think the book acts as a tether and a transition into Lynchland, warping what we think we know from the series to makes this transition interactive and set the stage for this is the Twin Peaks you know but not. And yeah it's going to be still harder for many of us that made old Twin Peaks a hyperreal place we felt secure in our understanding of to plunge into this new hyperreality.

boske wrote:
mtwentz wrote:We could start a separate thread on this, but I think the more radical changes flow from FWWM. FWWM changed the mythology more than The Return, IMHO.

Let's rock! :-)

mtwentz wrote:1. Blue Rose/Jeffries- Directly contradicts the original series, in which the only reason to investigate the Laura Palmer case was because Ronette crossed state lines.

How would they know it is a Blue Rose case? Do they assume any cross-state crime is a Blue Rose case? Maybe I am missing a FWWM detail?


I inferred from SHOTP p 322 from this statement by Garland and the corresponding footnote by Tammy that it was not about the border crossing at all, that was a cover story - sorry so big you can't read it if I reduce it. So not a contradiction, but it did clarify the discrepancy FWWM seemed to create.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtl » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:04 pm

Agent327 wrote:
mtl wrote:love this thread tbh :lol:

haters mad at lovers
lovers amused by haters


What a fair and nuanced characterization.

If you have legitimate criticism you must be a "HATER". Your purpose is to HATE.

You realize your comment comes across ironically both as hateful and needlessly condescending?

Mindblowingly intellectually lazy?

I know I'm giving your comment too much credit by even addressing it.

This thread has tons of thoughtful comments. But if you want and need to just defend the show, then of course it's easier from a psychological standpoint to skip all of the substance, and build your own fantasy land where you pretend that it's all just "haters".

By the way.....Lovers "amused" by haters? The times I've posted criticism in the main thread, no "lover" was amused. Using your own over simplistic tools of analysis I could brand those people "mad" based on some of the replies and I could easily brand myself very amused by the whole 'emperor's new clothes' factor evident on the enthusiastic side. So you think this dynamic you choose to over simplistically describe MIGHT go both ways.......by any chance?

The truth is, there are many perfectly legitimate points of criticism to be made on the new show. At least you have to acknowledge that, if you want to live in the real world.

Regarding this latest episode, I thought it was one of the more entertaining Return episodes yet. Kind of what I hoped the WORST episodes of the new season would be. And there are many reasons for this, I can easily go into minute by minute details unpacking my reasons.

The infamous Sarah Palmer moment didn't bother me, really. If I still wanted this to have some integrity in terms of what I liked about TP and it's sensibilities, it would bother me, but expectation wise I'm not up there. I think Lynch made it clear, that this has very little to do with the old Twin Peaks universe and sensibilities.

Watching it as an episode in a Lynch movie, I thought episode 14 was a serviceable installment. That's how I watch the show, and it's able to....most weeks, keep my attention sufficiently this way.


Th-is wa-ay.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Aqwell » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:39 pm

Image

There's a continuity error with that statement. In the original series, Cooper choosed specifically Albert rather than Sam to assist him on the Palmer Case. Therefore Sam was still working at the FBI at that time.
And we saw Sam in great shape in The Missing Pieces, after the disappearance of Chet Desmond, annoying Cooper with the machine he used on Teresa Banks to find the letter T under her nail.
A lot of BS in that SHOTP... :(
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:53 pm

To be fair to Kyle, while he has read the original script, and is one of the rare crew members to have had that luxury, he has not seen the final product on screen. He is in the boat with the rest of us, he stated that clearly when they had that special running of the first two parts I believe.

So based on his reading of the script, he had thought that the poo would flow. If by the end of it all it has not flown at all, that would tell us something, wouldn't it?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby tresojos » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:09 am

im living for the drama in this thread
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:32 am

Allright, back to business. I have mentioned this before. Speaking for myself only, I never expected the return to the original. Why? It has been 25 years and a lot of things have changed since then, it is no longer the same place. Even FWWM was different in tone from the series and I liked it. The return is shot in digital, I wish it were not, but what can you do. I hate the plastic lodge video game-like setting with those opaque curtains. Try seeing Maddy or the doppleganger approaching the waiting room now, or the owl/planet flying in the background in the original dream scene, sorry, can't happen. But still, I grudgingly accepted it and moved on.

When Showtime announced the Return they dragged Kyle in front of the press, dressed him up as Coop and had him doing the "damn good coffee, and hot!" shtick. Now that was some false advertising. They should have had Gordon Cole there with his malfunctioning hearing device and a very fine bottle of Bordeaux. What a joke.

Here we are, 14 parts in (more than 3/4), and Dale Cooper is a pylon in Las Vegas, while the main protagonist is an elder FBI agent enjoying that damn good very fine Bordeaux, has an assistant that I doubt has graduated from high school, is whistling Rammstein, and frequently talks to Monica Belucci in his dreams. He's due to kiss some waitresses soon I bet. What a joke.

This may sound heretical around here, but sometimes it feels to me as if Lynch is subconsciously jealous of the original characters and the town, that he has purposely decided to mock them for 18 hours. I mean, Sarah Palmer, face-removing throat-slashing monster, wtf, are these David Icke's reptilians? I did not expect the return to the original, but these characters should have been given some justice and instead they got mocked and ridiculed, just like, in my opinion, the rest of us.
Last edited by boske on Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:44 am

Aqwell wrote:Image

There's a continuity error with that statement. In the original series, Cooper choosed specifically Albert rather than Sam to assist him on the Palmer Case. Therefore Sam was still working at the FBI at that time.
And we saw Sam in great shape in The Missing Pieces, after the disappearance of Chet Desmond, annoying Cooper with the machine he used on Teresa Banks to find the letter T under her nail.
A lot of BS in that SHOTP... :(


Purposeful tho. Lana wins Miss Twin Peaks, Annie doesn't exist, Robert Jacoby dies twice. There's about 50 of them. It's intriguing to me, but I can see why some would find it to be a shortcut to creativity-- like the glitching/post hoc incorporation of 'mistakes' into the mythos that the main thread debates so much. Actual mistakes were part of the obsessive fun over the years for fans, trying to force them to makes sense. All the Return and Secret History is like someone throwing another 500 pieces of a new puzzle onto a 1000 piece puzzle you're halfway done with. Or someone else taking your remaining pieces away and replacing them with a pieces of the same puzzle cut completely differently.

To not derail further- regarding the jack rabbit's scene- the fog machine looked bad in digital, not at all like the fog in the dark corridor of Lost Highway. Very film school.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:29 am

IcedOver wrote:
AhmedKhalifa wrote:Some of the staunchest supporters of TPTR don't seem to hold the original TP in as high a regard as us older fans who watched it countless times and cherish it for its flawed beauty. I'm even getting the feeling that Lynch himself is almost being resentful to fans who adored the original, since it wasn't purely his vision in the first place. Instead, he's taking it back, so to speak, pushing it farther and farther away from its roots and towards what he thinks he should be doing now in accordance with how' he perceives himself and what critics expect of him, rather than honoring and enhancing the best aspects of the original. A sad, sad situation for us old fans.


Some of the taking it back I do believe is present. As far as honoring and enhancing the original, people have to take a step back and ask why that is necessarily important, and I believe Lynch is challenging us to do that. Why is it necessary to repeat the past? If this show tried to copy the rhythms, the look, the feel, the editing, the story structure of the original, would that make it any more valid? Would fans be happier knowing they got exactly what they expected and give Lynch an "A" on his report card?

I don't necessarily believe he had a duty to replicate the original, and clearly he didn't want to even in the movie. Much of this show is about the idea of time passing, things changing over time. Maybe at one point over the years when Lynch considered coming back to this show, he had in mind something that was more similar to the original. At this time, though, this is what he wanted to do. I think some of the characters reflect that, the ones who are in different places than they were 25 years ago. So is Lynch, and today maybe he just wants to film somebody sweeping up cigarette butts, or singing a song in his front yard. Maybe that is what "TP" means to him today. Who's to say that is any more or less valid than a recreation of the original would have been? You want Cooper? Nah, today he's been ripped in two, a saint and a demon. That's just the way it is.

Of course, we can dispute what Lynch has made of this show in and of itself, separate from the original. I'm still in the slightly disappointed camp for some shoddy filmmaking and some other things, but I'm trying to work through it because I really do want to like this show and mine all of its value, even though I do feel that it is probably past the point it could be a great work.


I appreciate your opinion, but I do believe you're missing my point. Honoring the past and repeating it are too different things. When you return to one of your seminal works and almost completely abandon everything that made it special, that's not moving forward or being innovative, that's being contrarian to a fault, and fairly disingenuous when calling it TWIN PEAKS: THE RETURN. I never wanted Lynch to repeat himself or give me exactly what I wanted. That's not Lynch's forte. But look at what he did with FWWM. Don't you consider that movie a success? I do, because Lynch took the heart of the series, amped it up, darkened it, twisted it, but not completely out of shape. The essence, the tarnished beauty was still there. I can't find that at all in the RETURN. Even his treatment of the original characters is cold and unloving for the most part. As for Cooper, well, that's a polarizing choice, and I think a regrettable one, since TP now is a story with no real hero, only a damaged one, being pulled and pushed by forces beyond his control.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Wally Brando » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:33 am

I've read this thread with interest throughout The Return. As others who are enjoying the show have mentioned, it's good to read something that opposes your own point of view. I've also been curious to see if any particular episode (the incredible Part 8 for example) has converted any of the 'profoundly disappointed' or further entrenched their position.

Until now I've not felt any need to post in here, however, as someone who is thoroughly enjoying The Return, and he been in love with Twin Peaks since watching the original series when it was first broadcast in the UK as a teenager, and has watched it countless times since, I find the suggesting by certain posters in here (at least one of whom in clearly either trolling or genuinely unhinged) that you can only enjoy The Return if you're not a 'true' fan of the original both ludicrous and offensive.

And to stay on topic, like Sylvia_North I found the fog disappointing. The lights off camera also flashing on the trees surrounding JRP seemed clumsy/lazy to me.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:40 am

I don't think it's fruitful to try to argue - however gently - for who loves/respects original TP the most. We're all very different beasts with very different brains, and we receive/interpret things differently.

Been pondering a discussion we had a while back about semiotics and how those who love the series are interpreting the text. The longer I sit with the thought, the more I reflect on how the place I'm in, in my head, in my life at the moment, plus the age/situation I was at when I watched the original TP, are affecting my reception of The Return, as one of the Disappointed. I've no doubt it's a huge part of how I'm reading it.

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