Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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AhmedKhalifa
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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:21 pm

Rialto wrote:
AhmedKhalifa wrote:
Rialto wrote:What a great thought, that DoppelCoop would have slipped into Coopers life and corrupted it, him and everything he touched from within - rather than disappearing off to become some cookie cutter 'bad guy' from a long forgotten episode of The A Team.


Lol. Yeah, doppelCoop does look a little silly, doesn't he? And what about that hair? :)


Even death (and revival by dancing hobos) couldn't dislodge that natty bolo hair tie!
It couldn't dislodge the hair tie, but it dislodged Bob! Go figure :)

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Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby David Locke » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:46 pm

It seems a lot of the more fervent love for TR is from people who either don't actually like the original series much ("The Lynch episodes were great but everything else was typical TV," etc), or who may be a big fan yet still think TR is better than it. Which boggles my mind but hey, it takes all kinds I guess.

I mean I can understand maligning the weaker stretches of the original or the more prosaic feel of many of the non Lynch episodes (even though I still think they're great)... but to put TR on par with or surpassing stuff like Pilot, Episodes 2, 8, 9, 14, 29? Or Episodes 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 13? Even Episodes 7, 16, 23, 25, 26, 27? (Which I think are a bit more flawed but still quality).

Hell, I enjoy flawed but good episodes like 11, 15, 18, 20, 24, etc, more than I enjoy even the more objectively Artful parts of TR. What the hell is wrong with me? :D

I guess I can say that I enjoy TR more than I do Episodes 19, 21 and 22 of the original series. (High praise, indeed). But even a trainwreck like Episode 17 is something I'd often rather spend time with than in the ugly world of TR.

So I guess I'm an irredeemable fanboy of the original run. To the point where even the flaws don't bother me, and I never skip scenes or episodes on rewatches. The whole package is just so much more impressive than TR, even down to something like the opening credits - in particular, those aerial drone shots of water flowing and waterfalls etc in TR credits strike me as oddly prosaic, like extracted from a nature doc; in the original credits every shot was gorgeous and stylized. The new ones feel a bit lazy. I even miss the way the old show continued those distinctive oddly-colored credits into the episode proper, with some openings being quite striking even (like Ep 29's screen-covering "Written by Mark Frost & Harley Peyton & Robert Engels" or Lynch's directors credit coming in over the moodily scored opening scene just as Hawk enters).

Dugpa was right, I'm definitely a huge nerd ;)


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Last edited by David Locke on Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby wAtChLaR » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:30 pm

David Locke wrote:It seems a lot of the more fervent love for TR is from people who either don't actually like the original series much ("The Lynch episodes were great but everything else was typical TV," etc), or who may be a big fan yet still think TR is better than it.

how on earth did you ever arrive at this gross generalization
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Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby David Locke » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:35 pm

wAtChLaR wrote:
David Locke wrote:It seems a lot of the more fervent love for TR is from people who either don't actually like the original series much ("The Lynch episodes were great but everything else was typical TV," etc), or who may be a big fan yet still think TR is better than it.

how on earth did you ever arrive at this gross generalization

From observation. Tons of people on Reddit especially as well as Dugpa find the old series not that special compared to TR. You can see this even just from that new poll asking to choose between New and Old TP... the vast majority, like 70-30, chose New, and if the margin has narrowed lately it's not by much. Are you saying that such people don't exist?

No offense but all you've contributed to this thread is troll-ish, snarky quick digs at those who the thread was explicitly made for.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby wAtChLaR » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:43 pm

David Locke wrote:
wAtChLaR wrote:
David Locke wrote:It seems a lot of the more fervent love for TR is from people who either don't actually like the original series much ("The Lynch episodes were great but everything else was typical TV," etc), or who may be a big fan yet still think TR is better than it.

how on earth did you ever arrive at this gross generalization

From observation. Tons of people on Reddit especially as well as Dugpa find the old series not that special compared to TR. You can see this even just from that new poll asking to choose between New and Old TP... the vast majority, like 70-30, chose New, and if the margin has narrowed lately it's not by much. Are you saying that such people don't exist?

No offense but all you've contributed to this thread is troll-ish, snarky quick digs at those who the thread was explicitly made for.


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you don't need to preempt with "no offense"
you can't offend me

and many of us original fans who were obsessed with Twin Peaks are obsessed with the return

and a final LOL
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby David Locke » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:48 pm

wAtChLaR wrote:
David Locke wrote:
wAtChLaR wrote:how on earth did you ever arrive at this gross generalization

From observation. Tons of people on Reddit especially as well as Dugpa find the old series not that special compared to TR. You can see this even just from that new poll asking to choose between New and Old TP... the vast majority, like 70-30, chose New, and if the margin has narrowed lately it's not by much. Are you saying that such people don't exist?

No offense but all you've contributed to this thread is troll-ish, snarky quick digs at those who the thread was explicitly made for.


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you don't need to preempt with "no offense"
you can't offend me

and many of us original fans who were obsessed with Twin Peaks are obsessed with the return

and a final LOL

I never said that there aren't people who are equally huge fans of both, but it's not worth the annoyance of continuing to engage with you. "Moderator's nightmare," indeed.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:52 pm

David Locke wrote:So I guess I'm an irredeemable fanboy of the original run. To the point where even the flaws don't bother me, and I never skip scenes or episodes on rewatches. The whole package is just so much more impressive than TR, even down to something like the opening credits - in particular, those aerial drone shots of water flowing and waterfalls etc in TR credits strike me as oddly prosaic, like extracted from a nature doc; in the original credits every shot was gorgeous and stylized. The new ones feel a bit lazy. I even miss the way the old show continued those distinctive oddly-colored credits into the episode proper, with some openings being quite striking even (like Ep 29's screen-covering "Written by Mark Frost & Harley Peyton & Robert Engels" or Lynch's directors credit coming in over the moodily scored opening scene just as Hawk enters).


Man, you've pretty much summed up my own view. Some of the disappointed crowd have felt that The Return is somehow marring the original. I don't. I can still pop in any disc from The Entire Mystery and just enjoy the episodes. And like you, I never skip scenes. Great point about the opening credits.

Now, I don't have any ego connected to my own disappointment of The Return. If the show gradually grows on me over the next few years, till the point where I'm in awe of it, I'll happily come back and admit it. I don't expect it, though. The original became a part of me from the opening minutes. The Return isn't even close.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:28 pm

The Gazebo wrote:
David Locke wrote:So I guess I'm an irredeemable fanboy of the original run. To the point where even the flaws don't bother me, and I never skip scenes or episodes on rewatches. The whole package is just so much more impressive than TR, even down to something like the opening credits - in particular, those aerial drone shots of water flowing and waterfalls etc in TR credits strike me as oddly prosaic, like extracted from a nature doc; in the original credits every shot was gorgeous and stylized. The new ones feel a bit lazy. I even miss the way the old show continued those distinctive oddly-colored credits into the episode proper, with some openings being quite striking even (like Ep 29's screen-covering "Written by Mark Frost & Harley Peyton & Robert Engels" or Lynch's directors credit coming in over the moodily scored opening scene just as Hawk enters).


Man, you've pretty much summed up my own view. Some of the disappointed crowd have felt that The Return is somehow marring the original. I don't. I can still pop in any disc from The Entire Mystery and just enjoy the episodes. And like you, I never skip scenes. Great point about the opening credits.

Now, I don't have any ego connected to my own disappointment of The Return. If the show gradually grows on me over the next few years, till the point where I'm in awe of it, I'll happily come back and admit it. I don't expect it, though. The original became a part of me from the opening minutes. The Return isn't even close.


I agree with you both. The original TP had me at the pilot, and I definitely don't skip scenes while rewatching the episodes. 15 episodes in, and I'm still not feeling TPTR. Enough said.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:32 pm

watchlar may not be my cup of tea, but he's not wrong: That is a gross generalization and wildly inaccurate. Thanks.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
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Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:05 pm

Traditional update.
Kids watched E15, they both loved it and wanted to re watch it as soon as it ended.
I skipped the Steven's language under the tree ;)

15yo said it's the best episode of the series, and he was saddened by the death of his favorite character. He loved the Log Lady since the first time he saw her in the pilot.

11yo also said it was the best thing ever, he was freaked by the Convenience Store scenes, and also by the screaming girl at the end.

Of note:
- They both laughed like crazy during Audrey's scene. They were laughing loud and they both wanted to rewatch it. Don't ask me why!!!
- as soon as DougieCoop went on his knees my 11yo yelled "he looks different ! He's Cooper!"
- right after Cooper got his nice shock they both expressed disappointment at the idea that Dougie might be gone.

In general, much stronger and positive reaction than I expected. Never seen them so excited after an episode of TP.



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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:56 pm

David Locke: Thanks for continuing to be one of the most thoughtful, thought-provoking posters on this forum, even if I disagree with many of your opinions re: TR. I'm glad the show at least hasn't robbed you of your love for the original, as it apparently has for some others (including this thread's illustrious founder). Your mention of Eraserhead is interesting, and I do think TR is in some ways closer to that film stylistically than to any other DKL work, particularly in what many perceive as a lack of human warmth; and while I agree with you that it's not as good as EH, the revisiting of that stilted, glacial, otherworldly, dreamlike style may be part of the reason I'm enjoying it so much.

You've made me realize that I've been subconsciously avoiding the question of how this series measures up to the original -- I just sort of skimmed past that poll that was posted without thinking about it. I think the reason for this is twofold: 1) as a DKL fan first and TP fan second, I'm a bit scared that I might be forced to admit the unthinkable to myself, that TP with DKL in full directorial control turned out weaker than the more collaborative original series (not saying I feel this way; just that I'm afraid I MIGHT if I confront the question); and 2) TR is too shiny and new to accurately evaluate its place in the TP or DKL pantheon, especially without knowing how it ends. I'm still just so elated that we got it at all, it's tough to be fully objective. You don't get bored of your toys on Christmas morning.

You've inspired me to give it a little thought now. I think I feel fairly comfortable saying that nearly any Part we've seen of TR outclasses Episodes 16-28 for me. 27 and 25 are the only episodes that might be on potentially equal ground to the weaker Parts of TR (Part 9, Part 12). I also feel comfortable saying that nothing -- not even the breathtaking Part 8 -- has surpassed Episode 29, Episode 14, or FWWM for me.

It gets murkier when I try to compare TR to the strongest stretch of the original -- the Pilot, Episodes 2-9 (1 feels more like a gamepiece mover/settling-in after the Pilot and has never been a particular favorite of mine)...I find that as early as Episodes 10, 12, 13 and 15 the cracks start to show (11 is of course painful), but those hours still have a lot to recommend them, and might not be any more or less uneven than the average Part of TR (again, I need to let TR settle in my mind a bit more, and possibly rewatch both series, before I commit myself). But in terms of that Episode 2-9 stretch of the show, I'm honestly not sure I can say in good conscience that TR has consistently surpassed it in terms of watchability. Again, I think it has surpassed it (and pretty much everything else) in terms of pure ballsiness and experimentation, even if that hasn't had a complete success rate, and I love that L/F have swung for the bleachers. I refuse to commit myself at this point...but I do think there's a strong possibility that I will end up being someone who loves TR, but finds that season 1/very early season 2 stretch of the old show to be of more consistent quality.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:37 pm

He said "A LOT OF the more fervent love" - that's kind of a narrow group, not a gross generalization. Again, if it doesn't apply to you, avoid the reflexive taking it personally.

On the main thread recently I saw something that started with "much/many of the blankety-blank of the blank because blank on the disappointed thread [insert the standard argument]" and the thought process is something like 'that turd, how dare they, I have a few choice words!' oh- that probably is a shoe that fits for the segment they are delineating if you look at the wording. Generalizations are generalizations because there's some truth in them but it's also easy to blow over the nuance of phrasing when your passions are high.

Referendum mentioned "vorgeschoben" (a kind of conversational misdirection) as a German word there's no equivalent for in English. Another is "rechthaberei" - always having to be right. In real life discussions, you can make a generalization and it doesn't come off like an absolute declaration because of nonverbal communication and a understanding of a friendly tone. Obviously you're not doing to single out the cases or cite examples of a case you see a lot talking face to face, and interlocutors aren't going to look for a fight to pick where there isn't one. Online discussions seem to come attached with defensive stances already in place by the 'debating' nature implied in the format, goals of conveying reality with clear separation from BS'ing, being correct and understood. It gets so serious it's a drag. I have to tell myself often to just let it go.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Aqwell » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:34 pm

judasbooth wrote:Kevin Smith is a basically a hack who should never be allowed within 100 yards of a film set.
I agree but... I really liked Chasing Amy. This one is a gem, at least for me. 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L9io-b9Uew

yaxomoxay wrote:Kids watched E15, they both loved it and wanted to re watch it as soon as it ended.
In general, much stronger and positive reaction than I expected. Never seen them so excited after an episode of TP.
You're brainwashing your kids with that shit? I'm gonna call Child Protection. :mrgreen:

wAtChLaR wrote:and many of us original fans who were obsessed with Twin Peaks are obsessed with the return
Fans or groupies? The key word here is 'obsessed'. To be unable (or not caring) to see the huge flaws of The Return is a bit scary to say the least.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:40 am

About DoppelCoop. Most people probably had an expectation that he would have quieted down and had an occasional outburst Bob/Leland style, and the script again (deliberately?) went in the opposite direction. Hence Mr. C. I never had issues with his physical appearance, I think they found a right balance knowing Frank Silva was sadly no longer around, so they came with a Cooper in Bob's image, so to speak. No denim, but leather and snake skin. And if you read about how that look was conceived, you will find that Kyle contributed quite a bit to it (contact lenses, hair length and style). What we see now could have been much worse.

The problem with Mr. C (well at least one of the problems), is that we do not know how much of the real Cooper is there and what it is that makes up the rest. It feels like even they are not totally clear on that ("Are you still with me", Bob in he mirror scene). So to sum up:

  • We do not know what motivates Mr. C; He seems like a rich guy, very healthy, he can get "chicks 'n' stuff", almost has as many cars as Jay Leno;
  • We do not know what his goals are (except when he flashed that Ace card to Darya); What does he need, sorry, scratch that, what does he want? Some recognition from the society? Government power? Senate seat?
  • We do not know how much of "real" Cooper is still there; Is he fully demonic, insane, partially brain-dead?
  • We do not know if Bob is "still with him", however that gets to be interpreted; Does it even matter (except for teasing the audience);
  • We do not know if it was him who manufactured Dougie, it is inferred but may not end up being true;
  • We do not know how he evolved over the last 25 years, I mean, you need some skills to manufacture a thought-form. Was he in some group, secret society, etc. Did he go to Tibet (hey what happened to that arc)? Was he in some rogue group? League of Shadows? Did he have his own "Ra's al Ghul"? (If he had, I hope it is not frickin' Gordon Cole again);
  • We do not know if FBI were actively looking for him in any way; Do these guys ever get worried when some of their finest agents disappear?
  • We do not know what happened between him and Diane;
  • We do not know of his connections to Albert;
  • We do not know of his connections to that super cool guy special agent Gordon Cole; (Does Cole want to be with Bob again?)
  • We do not know what happened to him before he got of of Twin Peaks, other than that he visited the hospital, the whole purpose of it to get us thinking that he was (he may as well be) Richard Horne's father;
  • We do not know what happened between him and Major Briggs;
  • We do not know what happened between him and sheriff Harry Truman;
In the end, he may end up just like Todd, Lorraine, and Warden Murphy. The whole point seems to be to tease us on every corner, and keep us in the dark for as long as possible. Hopefully they will then at a certain point turn on the light and explain all the loose ends in five minutes. They may as well throw a bucket of ice and water at us for fun. Well, maybe they already do: that's what most of the Roadhouse acts are for...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:17 am

Aqwell wrote:
wAtChLaR wrote:and many of us original fans who were obsessed with Twin Peaks are obsessed with the return
Fans or groupies? The key word here is 'obsessed'. To be unable (or not caring) to see the huge flaws of The Return is a bit scary to say the least.

I think it's a wrong assumption that being obsessed means you can't see any flaws because people can also be obsessed with things they don't like. I'd rather say obsessed means you invest a lot of time into something, which is what people from both the "like" and "disappointed" groups are doing for The Return. I love the original series and was obsessed with it, but I still saw it's flaws, as many other people did, so I think it's unfair to say that people who are obsessed with the new series and like it are unable to see any flaws because of their obsession.

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