Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[cgs027]

Also, a reason I personally spend so much time on this board despite not doing so for other shows I loved such as Mad Men and Breaking Bad is that I had friends who watched those shows, and I discussed them at work and over drinks. Here, outside of my girlfriend watching with me some weeks, this place is my sole outlet for discussion!

Ha, same here. And I like popping in on this thread to get some balance. As I've stated here, I am enjoying the new series as whole, but have issues with some of the storylines (especially the messy coordinate sh*t -- Hasting's secretary serving no real purpose), character (lack of) development, etc... It gets tiring to hear that EVERYTHING is in place for a reason and how dare anyone suggest otherwise. Even obvious errors, like the wrong name on Miriam's envelope. Nobody in their right mind thinks that storyline is going to come back into play in these final two episodes, so how can somebody argue that was done on purpose?!? (Yet they persist...)

[AhmedKhalifa]

From the Washington Post article:"[Twin Peaks : The Return is] a stunning rumination on heroic good and innate evil, told through a refreshingly coherent, expertly paced plot that managed to keep its loyal fans and curious newcomers guessing the entire way."

That critic must be watching another show

[Mr. Reindeer]

I wouldn't call the new season a masterpiece. But I also don't think you can compare the online response to The Sopranos to what's happening on this board. When that show ended 11 years ago, the ability to use the Internet on smartphones was very limited, expensive and slow.

So what does it say that when The Sopranos was running The Chase Lounge was way busier than this site, its precise equivalent for The Return?

I suppose that The Sopranos's viewership was a lot higher than TR's, which is established fact! I had no idea how active those boards were, I wasn't on there.

[Mr. Reindeer]

Also, a reason I personally spend so much time on this board despite not doing so for other shows I loved such as Mad Men and Breaking Bad is that I had friends who watched those shows, and I discussed them at work and over drinks. Here, outside of my girlfriend watching with me some weeks, this place is my sole outlet for discussion!

Ha, same here. And I like popping in on this thread to get some balance. As I've stated here, I am enjoying the new series as whole, but have issues with some of the storylines (especially the messy coordinate sh*t -- Hasting's secretary serving no real purpose), character (lack of) development, etc... It gets tiring to hear that EVERYTHING is in place for a reason and how dare anyone suggest otherwise. Even obvious errors, like the wrong name on Miriam's envelope. Nobody in their right mind thinks that storyline is going to come back into play in these final two episodes, so how can somebody argue that was done on purpose?!? (Yet they persist...)

Yeh, the defense of every flaw as part of some elaborate master plan started with the release of TSH and is reaching fever pitch now, oddly, even though it seems to me L/F don't have time to even wrap up all the major plot threads let alone something like mismatched phone timestamps. But I guess people only have three more days to hypothesize like this (and then another two months until TFD finally quells all the theorizing/over analysis), so let 'em enjoy it. But that's a big reason I like his thread as well. I love critocal analysis and dissecting a work; the Easter egg hunt and zany theorizing gives me a headache.

[referendum]

This forum has taken a strange turn.
There is all this casting about for whether things like the Shawshank Redemption ( ffs) or Eyes Wide Shut or the Sopranos or Breaking Bad provoked any critical dissent on release. ( despite that none of them were returns to a 25 year old established critical success).

Then there is all the ' I wouldn't watch season 4' brigade, then there is the ' OMG this isn't a masterpiece it must be a failure then' hyperbole. Then there has been a kind of tendency just to spew piss-takes of the way the thing has been made, aka sour grapes. There has been alot of talk about objective subjective critical response. Everything's suddenly gone all black & white.

I totally understand why people are annoyed by this thing, but this wish to arrive at some sort of canonical critical consensus before it is even over is odd for me. It's all got abit hysterical, like a witch-trial. Apart of course from posters such as the ever reliable JudasBooth and David Locke and Reindeer and Strawbery and Sylvia North and the other stalwarts who represent the even keel of critical dissent in this group.

But for the last few days there seems to be a desire to throw critical discussion out the window and just bicker and carp and talk about other films as sort of ' winning by comparison'. Maybe that is because the series is coming to an end and everyone wants to get the obituary in first and move on.

it can make for depressing reading.

[edit: ps - i agree with @Boske - the interesting dissection will happen in a week or two after this thing has finished. Maybe this sudden focus on other books and films is just a pause for letting off steam/ tension/ frustration before the inevitable Sunday AAAAGGGHHH ]

But you know, it is unusual ( for me anyway ) that a TV series has got it's teeth in me to this extent...

[Mr. Strawberry]

Just a few things to note about the DOB on Cooper’s arrest record:

-A quick internet search for Dale Cooper provides his date of birth.

-The Production Team members that weren’t already Twin Peaks fans most likely went back and studied the material they were responsible for ensuring continuity of.

-Any error in that arrest record would need to first be created by an unaware or apathetic crew member, and then go unseen by everyone involved in order to make it to the final print.


The above factors greatly reduce the chance of the dates being goofs. They could be of course, but there are some other things to relate to the above notes:

-We don’t know what Dale’s involvement with Bill and Phyllis Hastings was.

-Major Briggs hasn’t aged in 25 years due to hibernation.

-Dale claimed to be 25 years Richard’s senior, which would have sounded strange to anyone reviewing the script, filming the scene, or delivering the lines.


We should wait until all has been revealed before trying to determine where mistakes were made. Of course nothing is perfect but there are still some strangely loose ends that need tying up. If they turn out to be screw ups, well, that will be pretty lame since we all noticed the inconsistencies.

And Miriam's last name on the envelope was confirmed to be a prop error

No one ever provided conclusive backing for this. The most we saw here in the forums was a link to a post on twitter, however that post only contained another unverified claim from a commenter that stated confirmation had been made, without providing any evidence of such, so unless I missed the proof, it has actually never been furnished.

So in effect it'll be a fight like this (minus the superman costume and Clark Kent glasses).

Stooping to that level would be so base, and feel more out of place than anything else in any of the three seasons. There's just no way... (enter Mark Frost: "...or is there?") Wouldn't it be more of a metaphysical conflict? (return of Mark Frost: "...or would it?")

[AnotherBlueRoseCase]

I wouldn't call the new season a masterpiece. But I also don't think you can compare the online response to The Sopranos to what's happening on this board. When that show ended 11 years ago, the ability to use the Internet on smartphones was very limited, expensive and slow.

So what does it say that when The Sopranos was running The Chase Lounge was way busier than this site, its precise equivalent for The Return?

I suppose that The Sopranos's viewership was a lot higher than TR's, which is established fact! I had no idea how active those boards were, I wasn't on there.

Sure. But I can't see the relevance to The Return is a masterpiece/not of "When that show ended 11 years ago, the ability to use the Internet on smartphones was very limited, expensive and slow." Could you explain it to me?

[yaxomoxay]

So what does it say that when The Sopranos was running The Chase Lounge was way busier than this site, its precise equivalent for The Return?

I suppose that The Sopranos's viewership was a lot higher than TR's, which is established fact! I had no idea how active those boards were, I wasn't on there.

Sure. But I can't see the relevance to The Return is a masterpiece/not of "When that show ended 11 years ago, the ability to use the Internet on smartphones was very limited, expensive and slow." Could you explain it to me?

Just look at how political discourse has changed. A tweet is now breaking news.
The smartphone era - followed by the social media era - opened for much broader discussions by a much wider audience. Of course there are many pros (more opinions etc), and many cons (things get dissected so quickly after the fact that after a while it becomes impossible to know who's who and what's what.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr. Reindeer]

So what does it say that when The Sopranos was running The Chase Lounge was way busier than this site, its precise equivalent for The Return?

I suppose that The Sopranos's viewership was a lot higher than TR's, which is established fact! I had no idea how active those boards were, I wasn't on there.

Sure. But I can't see the relevance to The Return is a masterpiece/not of "When that show ended 11 years ago, the ability to use the Internet on smartphones was very limited, expensive and slow." Could you explain it to me?

Was just saying that the reason for less negative posts might have been the result of less overall Internet/forum activity back then. You've apparently negated that by saying that The Sopranos forum had more activity than this place; fair enough. I still don't think it's an apples to apples comparison; TP and its history is its own unique beast. But again, I don't consider TR a masterpiece or a failure. I'm somewhere in the middle, skewing heavily toward positivity but happy to admit that it's kind of a mess in ways.

[AnotherBlueRoseCase]

.

[cgs027]

And Miriam's last name on the envelope was confirmed to be a prop error

No one ever provided conclusive backing for this. The most we saw here in the forums was a link to a post on twitter, however that post only contained another unverified claim from a commenter that stated confirmation had been made, without providing any evidence of such, so unless I missed the proof, it has actually never been furnished.

I thought I had seen a link to the person on set at some point. I'm not part of the Twitter universe, so I may have missed a reply somewhere. Either way, I will be shocked if they return to the Miriam character at all in these last 2 episodes. Don't see it as being a driving plotline anymore, and thus, it begs the question -- if the argument is that it was done on purpose, then for what reason? I'm not seeing it. They arrested Chad and he is now in jail along with the others, Lucy saw him fumbling with the mail (which may or may not have helped lead to his arrest -- remember, they had been watching him for a LONG time), Miriam survived and they were able to peg Richard as the suspect without the letter anyways, Richard is now dead (and if not, I don't expect to see him in the mortal plane again), etc... where does a second Miriam play into this in any way that enhances that story?

(And yes, I will come on here and eat crow if we have a long exposition scene in the last episode, Agatha Christie style, where Lucy explains how she brought down the corrupt officer when she figured out that he had taken a letter out of the mail, but unbeknownst to him it ended up being the WRONG Miriam, and she received the letter from the real Miriam the next day).

[AnotherBlueRoseCase]

I suppose that The Sopranos's viewership was a lot higher than TR's, which is established fact! I had no idea how active those boards were, I wasn't on there.

Sure. But I can't see the relevance to The Return is a masterpiece/not of "When that show ended 11 years ago, the ability to use the Internet on smartphones was very limited, expensive and slow." Could you explain it to me?

Was just saying that the reason for less negative posts might have been the result of less overall Internet/forum activity back then. You've apparently negated that by saying that The Sopranos forum had more activity than this place; fair enough. I still don't think it's an apples to apples comparison; TP and its history is its own unique beast. But again, I don't consider TR a masterpiece or a failure. I'm somewhere in the middle, skewing heavily toward positivity but happy to admit that it's kind of a mess in ways.

Okay, cheers.

[judasbooth]

(incredibly thoughtful, well-written analysis snipped)

...not that the opinions of others should determine ours, but let's remember that Kubrick -- one of the most accomplished and lauded directors of all time -- apparently considered Eraserhead his favorite film, as of the early '80s.

Your implied premise that scenes need to have "purpose" to be worthwhile indicates to me that perhaps you and I simply experience art differently. The "purpose" of the sick girl scene, for instance, is that it created an incredible reaction in me. It built and built with its mood of suburban dread, gridlock and guns, similar to Eraserhead's inimitable ambience in some ways while totally its own thing. It then had a glorious catharsis which simultaneously made my skin crawl and made me laugh hysterically when the "zombie" popped up. Like DKL's best work, it made me feel a complex mix of emotions that very few if any directors give me. And that made me happy. I don't need the scene to do or say anything beyond working on a visceral, intuitive level.

All of that being said, and to get slightly back on topic, I think TP:TR is one of DKL's less personal works. While Dougie I believe is a personal "character" for him, and many individual scenes and images work as standalone glimpses into his subconscious, I'm shocked by how invested he apparently was in straight mythology/story. The Audrey reveal (and its incredible execution) leaves me at least slightly hopeful that the final couple of hours will reveal a more personal/psychological component beneath all that shoe leather.

I accept that we view these things differently, and have no desire to try and somehow change your mind, but I will say a couple of things. Yes, Kubrick was reported as being a Lynch fan way back in the day, but I would expect this given that there were a lot of similarities in their approach to filmmaking. Let's not forget that Kubrick was subject to the same sort of criticisms that Lynch was/is - that he was mostly a visual stylist, that he had little interest in human characters, that he had a deep misanthropic streak, that his directing style was detached, that he had a propensity for violence and leery voyeurism. And I say all these things as someone who adores Kubrick's films, 2001 especially.

The zombie child scene may well have created an impression on some people (even if, for me, it was came across as schlocky and stupid, seriously, if I had at least found it funny that would have been enough), but as I asked in my previous post, what purpose does it serve the narrative as a whole? Whose character does it develop? Would it make a blind bit of difference if it wasn't there at all? Provoking reactions in the audience is perfectly valid, but provoking a reaction for its own sake is, for me, utterly pointless. For me, simply provoking a reaction is just not enough, I'm afraid.

Oh, and to add to the comments further down the thread concerning the write-up in the Washington Post, I would concur that that this makes little difference to how the show's detractors see it and will have little effect on those who have never seen the show. It's funny to see a lot of the show's apologists seizing on it as incontrovertible proof of TPTR's genius. Alas, it speaks volumes when people use appeals to authority to win debates - it shows that they aren't entirely confident of their own arguments. Yes, professional critics have a deep well of knowledge in their chosen field, but amateur film buffs have arguably just as much knowledge and critical skill. The only difference between them and the critics is that they don't get paid for it. Let's also not forget that FWWM was roundly slated by critics at Cannes, while Wild at Heart won the Palme D'or. Critics often get things very wrong.

[depechehenke]

Just watched episode 16. Getting angrier and angrier for each episode. The Audrey dance in the end felt like Lynch&Frost taking the final dump on their creation. Oh wait,there are two episodes left.

[referendum]

NB there's no claim here that any of this means The Return's an artistic failure.

says anotherbluerosecase

this is disingenuous, all you have to do is read your previous posts about it being a disaster, i won't quote them, you wrote them, there were alot of them and they were long. You made your point very effectively with a constant awareness of the sound of your own voice, which of course you lynch Lynch for.
But: What is the difference between a disaster and an artistic failure? You made alot of interesting and telling posts on here. previously. But now it appears to be competition time.
As far as i can see we have got into a horrible hinterground here, where some people ( you for example) are trying to establish a canonical critical response ( rubberstamped by whoever is going) by whipping up abit of fellow feeling amongst other people who subscribe to your own ' love to hate' bubble and comparing this to other random TV series or films in the past.
Well. The discussion will continue, what you say will remain as a sort of bitter residue of your own current wish to wrap the whole thing in a red BMW ribbon and send it to a demolition yard, and have a pat on the back from your mental Mitchum Brother for secretly having a heart of gold. Which of course we all want. Confirmation. Over and out.


ps, by the way, this group has been amazing and i really want to thank msslwrt and all the people ( including ABR) who have posted great things in it. But it has turned abit sour and bitchy so I am gonna step out for a few weeks. Enjoy sunday