mlsstwrt you asked whether to watch or not - I can't say of course, I never had the case of The Return spoiling my memories of Twin Peaks so it has always been fairly safe for me... while you seemed vulnerable in this respect... And so, I must say, after last night, it was the first time when I wanted to go beyond my usual "well there's a lot of things I don't like" and tell it like it is, that it is a piece of shit. So perhaps you'd be better off not watching?...
BUT I must say, too, that last night wasn't proper watching; I had to watch it very quietly and I was, in turns, dozing off and findin myself almost furious. To the extent that I had actually turned it off before it ended and I went to sleep.
And tonight I watched all of it, with my family, seeing and hearing it better plus with my expectations set for 'hey guys, look how crappy it is'. Surprisingly, it worked better. Partly better, that is.
I suppose I'm lucky enough I didn't really have a problem with two things that seem to bother a great many people in this thread: one referred to as 'retconning' (did't know the word), the other, the dream thing. As for retconning it doesn't seem to me that it makes anything that was told in the original invalid. The Laura Palmer story as it was portrayed in Twin Peaks and Fire remains a very deep, moving human tragedy with a unique happy angel-ending. Coming back to those woods and giving Laura a hand. and even going fishing with no body on the shore doesn't erase it for me at all! The 'retconning' part felt to me like a variation, a point of view - I don't know if it really happened
. For sure all that was so important for me (for us) in Laura's story is still there.
And as for the dream part, I didn't feel it like: "none of Twin Peaks was true and it's just an illusion of some Richard dude!". Perhaps this is because I didn't understand this part at all
OK, so a superimposed Cooper face says in a distorted voice that we live inside a dream (Jeffries said it before and I didn't understand what implications it had, either), then there's a Richard/Linda letter, referring to the first scene of Part 1 but... what does it mean? I have no clue and frankly speaking, I don't give a damn
All in all, I could actually repeat David Locke's opinion more or less:
* it had all been a mess and the finale did not change it
* Part 17 was strong and exciting apart from (though it is hard to part, really!) the unbelievably stupid conclusion with: a) Mr C getting shot by Lucy, b) Glove's fight with the bubble bob
* Part 18 (apart from the rather useless repetitions from Part 2) was sort of fascinating slash boring to death but I can't decide which one more
As for the mess, I'll try to show good will and say this: I can accept that some of the new material doesn't sit well with the old things. Prime example: Cooper and Diane's relationship, which in the light of Season 1 and 2, doesn't belong there at all. How's Annie, yes? But oooh kaaay, let it be that we are forgetting about Annie (click!) because in fact in THIS season she was never mentioned and this season is so detached from the old ones that it even makes sense. There are many examples like this (Cooper and Jeffries like old pals? c'mon, they haven't even met properly!) and I don't have to like it but let them be.
It does not, however, explain dozens of utterly USELESS characters, introduced for no good reason at all, who contributed a total nothing to the whole material. Prime example: Buckhorn/ coordinates and all that. I intend to make a list of "top 100 most useless things in The Return" - in another thread, that is (or perhaps even start a new one) - someone will kill me perhaps
Now Part 17 really kept me awake. It was emotionally strong, the prison made a very good stage once again, there was some good tension between Mr C and the police guys, especially Frank, the rushed arrival of Cooper surprisingly worked for me and Naido's transformation I even managed to predict, moreover it makes sense to me (wow). Well of course...
opium wrote:I don't know how one could watch a floating Bob orb fight a guy in some Rocky-esque brawl and not realize how stupid it is.
... and that's a fact!
Another thing I predicted was the key 315 and this, for one, was a part of the story that was well led and found a satisfying conclusion.
The use of old footage was OK and I saw its purpose , like I said I don't think they spoilt "my Laura" with it. It wasn't "my Laura" that was dealt with here. Cooper's Laura perhaps?
And now Part 18. That's a tough one. But one thing that makes it stand out is the thing that was constantly missing in The Return: it had structure and consistency. No mess here, no random scenes, no redundant characters. Coop's ride with Diane including crossing 430 - motel - looking for Judy - the fight at the bar - meeting with "Carrie" - their drive (ooooo!) - the Palmer house or is it? Not a single distractor. Now that's as far as structure goes. Another question is, what is inside that structure. Nothing? Is it empty and pointless? I don't know. I don't know what it means but it grows on me... Well, boring. HORRIBLY boring, I should say. This kind of boring I can accept though. It isn't (which it used to be in The Return!) boring-because-uninteresting. It is a strange way of showing how time passes or not passes; the durance; the moments dragging on for eternity. It's not enjoyable to watch but it has character!
Now I found Part 18 very Lost Highway-like, by far the most in of all The Return. Take the motel scene for instance. Or just the fact that it felt so heavy. Lynch has never done anything heavier than Lost Highway, I think.
boske wrote:Is it future or is it past I think referred to something different. One normally thinks time is linear, but what if it were circular instead.
And that's exactly a come back to Lost Highway, isn't it? Hopesfall already pointed it out.
Phew, it's just that Lost Highway made perfect sense. Even if it was in places totally puzzling, it made perfect sense on a, say, spiritual level. That WAS a masterpiece. Here, hmm. Quite a ride but neither emotionally, nor spiritually, it doesn't seem to matter much.
Please remember that I'm still showing good will and not asking questions like whatever happened to the New York glass box, Red the coin master, Ruth Davenport's head (or was it body?) and such like shite. Oh, and boske's beloved puke analysis results!
To end on a more positive note:
mtwentz wrote:And Cooper never really re-connected with Gordon and the Sheriff's station people...
But he didn't say it was going to be right away. As an open ending it kind of works - we don't know how Cooper is gonna go about his matters next but I'm sure he might yet re-connect with them as you put it.
waferwhitemilk wrote:Tammy looking at him like some sort of swan, i tried to like her but she can't even sit in a believable way it seems
How true! I've been looking for a good way to describe Tammy and there you go!