Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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cgs027
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:27 pm

Manwith wrote:Okay, apparently Frost implied in the Blue Rose Magazine interview Annie would be in his book, but it could be a red herring I guess:

Q: Will we learn more about Annie and her fate in the new series?
A: All I can say is: Wait for my addendum to the book [Twin Peaks: The Final Dossier] to come out.


It will be interesting to see if Frost retcons things from The Return that he wasn't happy with. Lynch had stated about TSHOTP that he never read it and it was Mark's vision, not his. Can't imagine that went over well (not exactly a ringing endorsement of the book when 50% of the creators behind the series say it's not required reading). Here's his chance to punch up some storylines that didn't pan out to his liking once filming concluded.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:59 pm

From the latest Guardian article about the TR finale: "The point is, we were never supposed to understand. Life doesn’t tie up." Give me a break. If there was ever a show NOT about realism, life, or verisimilitude, it's TR. And you definitely don't watch Lynch or TP for a philosophy lesson, and even if that were Lynch's intentions, then how more condescending and pretentious can he be, doing an 18 hour movie of self-indulgent/self-gratifying vignettes to deliver a harrowing epilogue that says trying hard to do the right thing will destroy you. How nihilistic and hopeless has Lynch's outlook become? I always thought TP was about good vs evil, and the consequences of that struggle. I never thought it would become a protracted, agonizing trip through hopelessness and despair with so much crulety metted out to the protagonist and the audience. Apparently, Lynch's heart has turned cold and unforgiving, and I for one will no longer partake of his new brand of "art".
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent327 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:35 pm

AhmedKhalifa wrote:From the latest Guardian article about the TR finale: "The point is, we were never supposed to understand. Life doesn’t tie up." Give me a break. .


Exactly. Like I said in another post, you can give a glowing review of the worst Adam Sandler movie using that exact line of argument. "Life is not per definition GOOD. Life is rarely funny, it's full of things that don't really come to fruition the way we hoped, Life is a series of setups that rarely pay off...." etc.

It's super idiotic and pretentious, exactly as you'd expect from a paper as intellectually dishonest as The Guardian.

If Lynch had chosen a different approach, tied up loose ends and given the world a more respectful goodbye, The Guardian would be raving about how masterfully Lynch managed to tie up the loose ends, surpassing all expectations, wrapping up the season in true form as the master storyteller that he is.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Endangered_Wulf » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:47 pm

AhmedKhalifa wrote:From the latest Guardian article about the TR finale: "The point is, we were never supposed to understand. Life doesn’t tie up." Give me a break. You don't watch Lynch or TP for a philosophy lesson, and even if that were Lynch's intentions, then how more condescending and pretentious can he be, doing an 18 hour movie of self-indulgent/self-gratifying vignettes to deliver a harrowing epilogue that says trying hard to do the right thing will destroy you. How nihilistic and hopeless has Lynch's outlook become? I always thought TP was about good vs evil, and the consequences of that struggle. I never thought it would become a protracted, agonizing trip through hopelessness and despair with so much crulety metted out to the protagonist and the audience. Apparently, Lynch's heart has turned cold and unforgiving, and I for one will no longer partake of his new brand of "art".


I'm not so sure what exactly I was hoping for during the Season Finale but...a no-closure situation was a big let down. I hope Mark Frost's new book fill in some of the gaps. No word about Annie. No word about Donna. No word regarding Audrey. No word about Jerry Horne. Icke the Spike....etc etc etc. A part of me thinks the Lynch-Frost team used Season 4 to expand the Twin Peaks universe in all sorts of directions. A part of me thinks they were lazy about doing so as they had 18 hours to work with.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby wxray » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:05 pm

cgs027 wrote:It will be interesting to see if Frost retcons things from The Return that he wasn't happy with. Lynch had stated about TSHOTP that he never read it and it was Mark's vision, not his. Can't imagine that went over well (not exactly a ringing endorsement of the book when 50% of the creators behind the series say it's not required reading). Here's his chance to punch up some storylines that didn't pan out to his liking once filming concluded.

It's not like Frost is innocent in this mess either. The director, though, like the captain of a ship, is the final authority and must take blame.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:35 pm

I haven't finished watching the finale in whole, but I just got to say punching the Bob Ball is really f***ing stupid. Like super f***ing stupid. Like thought bubble little Nicky stupid. F**k green glove, I want my life back that I wasted watching that character

Everything in the jail is unwatchable

Cooper's superimposed face. Just dumb looking

Inserting Cooper into a flashback? Dumb!! Wasting time on a flashback ? Why??
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mallard » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:43 pm

sylvia_north wrote:I haven't finished watching the finale in whole, but I just got to say punching the Bob Ball is really f***ing stupid. Like super f***ing stupid. Like thought bubble little Nicky stupid. F**k green glove, I want my life back that I wasted watching that character


He's not Little Nicky, but he's way too close to be excusable.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:44 pm

BOB Ball Bowl '17 is one of the defining moments of my Twin Peaks experience. I will be changing my avatar to that of Freddie In Action any day now.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Framed_Angel » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:46 pm

Endangered_Wulf wrote: ...and also I don't believe in a million years Laura Palmer is a 'good guy' character. Yes. she was flawed. Yes, she was abused and damaged by her father Leland but really even in a different dimension she had a dead-guy on her couch. She was coked up. She was a fun loving prostitute....but I agree...in a strange way....we all loved her.
That's something that's been nagging me throughout... but I saw so many perspectives elevating her to a saintlike platform I couldn't figure out what I'd missed. Probably this perspective got enabled by so much "Laura is the one" messages -- but even in FWWM at one point Donna tells Laura "James is the one," uses same wording.
It doesn't fit my approach to the narrative that being a victim of abuse and succumbing to drug addiction and seeking escape through sex and seedy company in a "double life" would add up to, or into, the conclusion such a person is a designated heroine and her loss of life is so tragic as a result. The message presented over TP and FWWM was that her death was inevitable in order to evade BOB. The tragedy included how Leland could function as a loving father and fairly likeable guy yet couldn't resist BOB's invasive control.
When all the people in TPS1 questioned during investigation were chiming in "oh, Laura was my English tutor" or "She helped Johnny twice a week" and "She volunteered with Meals on Wheels" at one point I remember thinking Surely this is farce, a hint of it, like how many high school over-achievers fill their dance cards with so many extra-curriculars. (as well as a device for audience to speculate who'd have a motive to murder her). Never did I think she was "the One" except in unifying all the people that knew her in various relationships after she'd died. And even so, no one really knew her. So I don't get the Laura worship.

Back on topic: as she was among other things a daughter, whose mother survived her, I may be most disappointed in Sarah's depicted situation above other disappointments. I felt for her descent into solitude and drink and I guess pills and outbursts of self delusion like at the checkout counter... It seemed she'd suffered enough where the storyline of S1-2 had taken her, without then dumping a malevolent entity into her as well. I know S2 showed her enter RR diner and speak in a otherworldly voice "I'm in the lodge with Cooper" so I guess we were supposed to understand from that, somehow she'd gotten possessed. Seems really punishing though.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:47 pm

I'm sore.

Lynch and Frost just spent 18 weeks fucking me.

The whole thing was a waste of my time.

The whole thing was pointless.

Unlike someone who showed up on this thread denying that this has been one of the worst seasons of television ever, I think it was. Given the talents involved, this is absolutely a squandering of ability. And, all told, it used Twin Peaks as a method of creating a greatest hits collection of bits of Lynch's past career.

This was a real 'two fingers' to everyone. This was a cynical, hateful waste of time and effort.

It wasn't art; rather it was 'anti-art.'

David Lynch's work is dead to me now.

Roll on season four...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby BOB1 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:02 pm

mlsstwrt you asked whether to watch or not - I can't say of course, I never had the case of The Return spoiling my memories of Twin Peaks so it has always been fairly safe for me... while you seemed vulnerable in this respect... And so, I must say, after last night, it was the first time when I wanted to go beyond my usual "well there's a lot of things I don't like" and tell it like it is, that it is a piece of shit. So perhaps you'd be better off not watching?...

BUT I must say, too, that last night wasn't proper watching; I had to watch it very quietly and I was, in turns, dozing off and findin myself almost furious. To the extent that I had actually turned it off before it ended and I went to sleep.
And tonight I watched all of it, with my family, seeing and hearing it better plus with my expectations set for 'hey guys, look how crappy it is'. Surprisingly, it worked better. Partly better, that is.

I suppose I'm lucky enough I didn't really have a problem with two things that seem to bother a great many people in this thread: one referred to as 'retconning' (did't know the word), the other, the dream thing. As for retconning it doesn't seem to me that it makes anything that was told in the original invalid. The Laura Palmer story as it was portrayed in Twin Peaks and Fire remains a very deep, moving human tragedy with a unique happy angel-ending. Coming back to those woods and giving Laura a hand. and even going fishing with no body on the shore doesn't erase it for me at all! The 'retconning' part felt to me like a variation, a point of view - I don't know if it really happened. For sure all that was so important for me (for us) in Laura's story is still there.
And as for the dream part, I didn't feel it like: "none of Twin Peaks was true and it's just an illusion of some Richard dude!". Perhaps this is because I didn't understand this part at all :wink: OK, so a superimposed Cooper face says in a distorted voice that we live inside a dream (Jeffries said it before and I didn't understand what implications it had, either), then there's a Richard/Linda letter, referring to the first scene of Part 1 but... what does it mean? I have no clue and frankly speaking, I don't give a damn :)

All in all, I could actually repeat David Locke's opinion more or less:
* it had all been a mess and the finale did not change it
* Part 17 was strong and exciting apart from (though it is hard to part, really!) the unbelievably stupid conclusion with: a) Mr C getting shot by Lucy, b) Glove's fight with the bubble bob :oops:
* Part 18 (apart from the rather useless repetitions from Part 2) was sort of fascinating slash boring to death but I can't decide which one more


As for the mess, I'll try to show good will and say this: I can accept that some of the new material doesn't sit well with the old things. Prime example: Cooper and Diane's relationship, which in the light of Season 1 and 2, doesn't belong there at all. How's Annie, yes? But oooh kaaay, let it be that we are forgetting about Annie (click!) because in fact in THIS season she was never mentioned and this season is so detached from the old ones that it even makes sense. There are many examples like this (Cooper and Jeffries like old pals? c'mon, they haven't even met properly!) and I don't have to like it but let them be.
It does not, however, explain dozens of utterly USELESS characters, introduced for no good reason at all, who contributed a total nothing to the whole material. Prime example: Buckhorn/ coordinates and all that. I intend to make a list of "top 100 most useless things in The Return" - in another thread, that is (or perhaps even start a new one) - someone will kill me perhaps :)

Now Part 17 really kept me awake. It was emotionally strong, the prison made a very good stage once again, there was some good tension between Mr C and the police guys, especially Frank, the rushed arrival of Cooper surprisingly worked for me and Naido's transformation I even managed to predict, moreover it makes sense to me (wow). Well of course...

opium wrote:I don't know how one could watch a floating Bob orb fight a guy in some Rocky-esque brawl and not realize how stupid it is.

... and that's a fact!

Another thing I predicted was the key 315 and this, for one, was a part of the story that was well led and found a satisfying conclusion.

The use of old footage was OK and I saw its purpose , like I said I don't think they spoilt "my Laura" with it. It wasn't "my Laura" that was dealt with here. Cooper's Laura perhaps?

And now Part 18. That's a tough one. But one thing that makes it stand out is the thing that was constantly missing in The Return: it had structure and consistency. No mess here, no random scenes, no redundant characters. Coop's ride with Diane including crossing 430 - motel - looking for Judy - the fight at the bar - meeting with "Carrie" - their drive (ooooo!) - the Palmer house or is it? Not a single distractor. Now that's as far as structure goes. Another question is, what is inside that structure. Nothing? Is it empty and pointless? I don't know. I don't know what it means but it grows on me... Well, boring. HORRIBLY boring, I should say. This kind of boring I can accept though. It isn't (which it used to be in The Return!) boring-because-uninteresting. It is a strange way of showing how time passes or not passes; the durance; the moments dragging on for eternity. It's not enjoyable to watch but it has character!
Now I found Part 18 very Lost Highway-like, by far the most in of all The Return. Take the motel scene for instance. Or just the fact that it felt so heavy. Lynch has never done anything heavier than Lost Highway, I think.

boske wrote:Is it future or is it past I think referred to something different. One normally thinks time is linear, but what if it were circular instead.


And that's exactly a come back to Lost Highway, isn't it? Hopesfall already pointed it out.

Phew, it's just that Lost Highway made perfect sense. Even if it was in places totally puzzling, it made perfect sense on a, say, spiritual level. That WAS a masterpiece. Here, hmm. Quite a ride but neither emotionally, nor spiritually, it doesn't seem to matter much.

Please remember that I'm still showing good will and not asking questions like whatever happened to the New York glass box, Red the coin master, Ruth Davenport's head (or was it body?) and such like shite. Oh, and boske's beloved puke analysis results!

To end on a more positive note:

mtwentz wrote:And Cooper never really re-connected with Gordon and the Sheriff's station people...

But he didn't say it was going to be right away. As an open ending it kind of works - we don't know how Cooper is gonna go about his matters next but I'm sure he might yet re-connect with them as you put it.



p.s.
waferwhitemilk wrote:Tammy looking at him like some sort of swan, i tried to like her but she can't even sit in a believable way it seems

:lol:
How true! I've been looking for a good way to describe Tammy and there you go!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:01 pm

The amount of pretentious BS many "critics" and fans have been spouting since the TR finale is truly astounding. I understand that any piece of art is open to interpretation, but any piece of art that encourages this amount of interpretation must have failed on some level. Because, in the end, all good art has a point, even if it's just on an aesthetic level, and that point has to be clear, even if it requires some digging to get to. To me, very little about TR has the faintest resemblance to a point. What was the point of all these hipster bands at the Roadhouse? What was the point of those cruel Audrey scenes? How about all those stale scenes with the Blue Rose task force sitting around, talking gibberish exposition? What was the point of the glass box? How is anybody supposed to get it, be enlightened by all this crap, and appreciate the artistry of it all? And that doom-laden finale, trapping Cooper, the heart of TP, in limbo, is just beyond cruel and nihilistic. I, for one, am not watching this mess again. An utter misfire, and, IMHO, the worst piece of work of Lynch' s career.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:16 pm

BOB1 wrote:Phew, it's just that Lost Highway made perfect sense. Even if it was in places totally puzzling, it made perfect sense on a, say, spiritual level. That WAS a masterpiece. Here, hmm. Quite a ride but neither emotionally, nor spiritually, it doesn't seem to matter much.


Totally agree. Lost Highway had a psychological foundation to help decode what was going on. While everything doesn't totally "fit" (for me, at least), it's pretty damn close. With The Return we compound this unpacking with the addition of all of the strange lodge mechanics/unclear motivations on the part of the lodge denizens/etc... So, you're kind of left dealing with the whole fugue state/trauma of Lost Highway mixed with time travel/parallel universes. And I'm not sure I have enough info here to fully emotionally connect to the endgame.

Yes, we can argue about Cooper being a flawed hero who doesn't know how to accept "what's done is done", but it is also implied he is simply doing the Fireman's bidding in episode 18...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:51 pm

Boring stupid crappy. The Sarah stuff and the last scene was creepy and that's great and all but what was the rest of it. I did not need a full length fanfiction style sex scene. Entire chunks of silent driving time. Why did Cooper bother taking the Odessa waitress to the Palmer house? Who cares. It feels like this whole thing was written over a drunken weekend.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Shangri-meh » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:26 pm

Ages-long lurker here.

First of all, it's been a real pleasure keeping up with this thread. The rest of the internet seems to have lost its head over TR, and consensus can be a real bore, especially when it comes to the 'avant-garde'. Thanks to all who've spent time here and contributed. And thanks to dugpa.com for letting it happen!

Now, I have some questions:

1.) If the show goes on to achieve the artsy darlinghood it seems to be destined for (if the Guardian and Condé Nast set are to be taken seriously, which in matters of culture and taste they may very well have to be for at least another half-decade), what do you folks think that means for the state of television and long-form storytelling in the main, and for the massive public consumption of audio-visual art in general? Is everything reducible to PR, and if so, Does Life Just Work This Way Now, Thanks? Is this too Guardian-ish of a thing to ask, and am I being mildly sarcastic right now?

2.) But seriously - PR is a killer. It poisons everything, to quote the subtitle of yet another popular book I haven't read and have often strenuously recommended. I'm afraid, as an internet nobody with nary a mother's basement to his name, that Donald, I mean, Don, I mean, David J. Lynch (damn thee, Guardian Zone!) hasn't had his baskets in a row for quite some time now, at least since the Poland Incident (there was a psychiatric training film commissioned afterwards on the matter, fyi - quite costumeless, quite Swedish - something about Native Ritual Pantomime Sitting and also Standing in the Bush of Silver Lake, California - something too about telephones), and that his egg has, quite metaphorically, flown the proverbial bank. Don's an impressionable guy, is what I'm saying, and that's not fake news, trust me, I can write a sentence. Someone must've loosed the BOBs of self-regard on him when he wasn't looking. Now Rolling Stone thinks TPTR is the best thing since TP! And Reddit's got a whole MIDIclaurian, I mean, Manichlorine, I mean (damn thee, Satan Mouse!) Manichaean mythos going! My question to you all is this: How, in the name of innocent chocolate bunnies everywhere, including bunnies unborn, did this happen? How did the cart slaughter the ox so, to such applause? Also, which Elder God must we petition for redress, and how bloody must be the terms of our ultimate reward? Please answer in hectares of souls.

3.) But actually seriously - the coverage of Season 3 has been to my disordered lights quite a bit baffling, and not even in a Late Night Sir John Oliver Snark sort of way. When was the last time something so contemptuous of itself carried so many people away in raptures of consensus? What does it mean to the health of a fan-base to be teased into loving a multimillion-dollar vanity project masquerading as a television show masquerading as an art-film continuation of a special thing that once felt very big and now feels very small? And what right do we have to wince at such things? Taste is taste. But Transformers is Transformers. But taste is taste. But Transformers is...

4.) On a less somber note - there were glimpses throughout the season of potentially intriguing things, most of which were dropped and discarded, and I'm interested in what you folks would've elaborated upon given the chance. I would've ixnayed the Las Vegas digression almost completely and moved swiftly from Dooper's incarceration to Cooper's return to Earth. Then I would've spent the remaining fourteen or so hours telling a Twin Peaks story featuring the surviving members of the cast I booked from the show I loved. Though I do confess my fondness for Janey-E and wish she'd been used in a more Peaks-y way. Imagine Naomi Watts having a row with Lucy Moran over inmate visiting hours while Dougie sits in a cell in the Sheriff's Station, pondering a slumbering drunk in an adjacent cell blowing spit-bubbles and murmuring something to himself about 'Margaritas by mornin' / Up from Daddy's Toe'. Oh, what could have been!

5.) Lastly, one more question for all of my fellow dreamers in this here civilized corner of the great and terrible digital Nod: was the dream worth it, and what shall become of you now?

I for one say, Indeed it was! Back to nineteen-ninety-something, lads and gals! Back to the End of History, I say! And this time, we're not cutting the tags off those Beanie Babies! We'll be rich, rich I tell you!

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