Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Esselgee
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Esselgee » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:38 pm

I think a big problem with The Return is due to Lynch's fascination with Laura Dern and Naomi Watts. This necessitated them getting the biggest female parts over any of the returning females. Lynch then had to make them both love interests for Cooper, who has long been described as representing Lynch himself. He also had to give them both sex scenes with Cooper. Maybe at this point having a still very hot Heather Graham hook up with a now old Cooper would have been too unrealistic.

So this is still on track to win all those awards I've seen so many people say it is guaranteed to win, right? I'm sure it'll sweep the Emmys next year. :roll:
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boske
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:35 am

At that time when this thread veered off into a gender discussion, a month or two ago, I was wondering (to myself) if we were about to see Diane undress, as almost all the other actresses seem to have gotten the same treatment (I bet Audrey would have ended the same way in part 27). I thought it was going to be a flashback scene (probably the same for Audrey). And then DoppelDiane was shot and I scratched off this possibility. Wrong! There was still a way for DL to sneak in a scene where he'd get to direct that stuff in a close and upfront way. I could say more of what I really feel on this infatuation, but I will stop short of it. You can imagine why. Also, yes, I get it, Diane is Cooper's scarlet woman (cue the hair color), just as written about in TSHOTP, that part of the book is now worth revisiting.

Now, about the retconning part. I think what was done with Sarah Palmer in part 14 is way worse. Why? I think Cooper trying to save Laura from her death would have worked if he did that right after the original scene with Naido. Imagine if part 17 came before all that Vegas nonsense, so we have:

  • parts 1-3, as is;
  • part 4: Coop gets out to part 17 where he tries to save Laura, and just like now, Laura disappears;
  • part 5: almost the same as part 18 (yes, the Diane scene would not fit here as is);
  • parts 6-16: Cooper tries to find their way back, interacting with most original TP characters who do not recognize him/them, while at the same time also being pursued by DoppelCoop; So it is another dimension where some things are different, but most are simply the same maybe in another way; So there are this two world that are close but yet apart and he is trying to bridge them somehow and save Laura;
  • parts 17-18: Cooper ultimately realizes that he will fail trying to save Laura again, she dies while he combats DoppelCoop, probably killed by Leland again, not in the same way for sure. They all find their way into the lodge, Cooper gets out to the real TP, runs into Annie or something;
So, saving Laura could have worked temporarily, just to show that it was ultimately her fate in all these parallel universes to be a victim and that it could not have been again overcome, even if ultimately possible. So this is why I am saying what was done to Sarah was way worse, because it was done in the actual TP, unless this is somebody's dream, and then all bets are off. I am not saying this is great or final, but would have worked better that what we got. As always YMMV.

And yes, and judasbooth correctly pointed out, The Return needs to get the Armin Tamzarian treatment. :-)
Last edited by boske on Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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waferwhitemilk
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby waferwhitemilk » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:44 am

Also, racism. The only black character gets to be a sexworker, the only asian character gets to be a placeholder for the *reaaal* character who is off course a) white and b) Laura Dern. Then they are also the only two who had to do topless scenes, if you overlook a brief sideboob shot of Laura Dern. Pretty disappointing for allegedly the 'best 18 hours of television ever'.
Last edited by waferwhitemilk on Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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boske
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:45 am

Esselgee wrote:I think a big problem with The Return is due to Lynch's fascination with Laura Dern and Naomi Watts. This necessitated them getting the biggest female parts over any of the returning females. Lynch then had to make them both love interests for Cooper, who has long been described as representing Lynch himself. He also had to give them both sex scenes with Cooper. Maybe at this point having a still very hot Heather Graham hook up with a now old Cooper would have been too unrealistic.

So this is still on track to win all those awards I've seen so many people say it is guaranteed to win, right? I'm sure it'll sweep the Emmys next year. :roll:

I agree 100%. The script was written to accommodate these actresses which was its undoing.
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boske
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:23 am

waferwhitemilk wrote:...Then they are also the only two who had to do topless scenes, if you overlook a brief sideboob shot of Laura Dern. Pretty disappointing for allegedly the 'best 18 hours of television ever'.

You forgot our "bad girl" Tracey, who hasn't by now?! :lol: You cannot but feel bad for what her role amounted to.
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musicaddict
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby musicaddict » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:50 am

I am not sure how about feel about any of this. I think numb is the word.

I waited patiently everyone said that this would all tie together in the end. I don’t care about Dougie but if only we had spent more time in Twin Peaks seeing the character arcs for the characters that were actually beloved instead of Tweedledumb, Tweedldee and Tweeldumbest (Mandie, Sandie and Candie).

I don’t care that the showed ended with non-conclusive ending – I expected that. What grates me is that this show was not Twin Peaks. Twin Peaks: The Return essentially was one giant tulpa that just shat over a 25 year mystery that had had me enthralled.

There was no warmth, no emotion to this flat and lifeless show.

What was the point? This was Twin Peaks in name only. I can only surmise that Frost and Lynch realised that this was the only way they were ever going to get something on TV again was to attach the Twin Peaks name and then create something that was a fake and manufactured version of the original which actually only had a very loose connection to the original. If this had been called something else and it was said it had a loose connection to Twin Peaks I would have believed it.
What in the hell was the point of Diane/Laura Dern? A basically non-character from the original suddenly the love of Dale’s life? Give me a break.
Sheryl Lee wasted in a handful of scenes.

Someone also needs to inform David Lynch that if what you produce is to be shown on TV and is shown in a weekly format then that is a TV show. How pretentious calling this one long movie – this was basically his only opportunity to secure funding to make another movie that he dressed up as the tulpa that is TP:TR.
I honestly think he just broke the spell that had been cast over me for 25 years.

I also see very little Frost in any of this.

Why does Lynch have to cast every actress he wants to bang (I am looking at you Chrysta Bell). Tammy was just stupid, I literally put my hand over the screen to cover her so I did not have to see those idiotic reactions which she calls acting.

As someone said elsewhere on this forum Twin Peaks worked previously because it was a combination of Frost/Lynch and other writers. This was just Lynch with a pinch of Frost.

The Diane character really was telling us the truth the whole time, she represented TP:TR as the tulpa it was and kept telling the audience ‘fuck you’. Thanks for the hidden message Frost/Lynch.

This was not art, this show is symptomatic of the problems in the world: there is no respect for the past nor the foundations of history basically anything goes and you can change whatever you want. NO YOU CAN'T!

Way to go Frost/Lynch.

P.S. The Season 2 cliffhanger left me wanting more even though it was frustrating. This ending was frustrating but I don't think I care to see any more.
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AhmedKhalifa
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:12 am

boske wrote:At that time when this thread veered off into a gender discussion, a month or two ago, I was wondering (to myself) if we were about to see Diane undress, as almost all the other actresses seem to have gotten the same treatment (I bet Audrey would have ended the same way in part 27). I thought it was going to be a flashback scene (probably the same for Audrey). And then DoppelDiane was shot and I scratched off this possibility. Wrong! There was still a way for DL to sneak in a scene where he'd get to direct that stuff in a close and upfront way. I could say more of what I really feel on this infatuation, but I will stop short of it. You can imagine why. Also, yes, I get it, Diane is Cooper's scarlet woman (cue the hair color), just as written about in TSHOTP, that part of the book is now worth revisiting.

Now, about the retconning part. I think what was done with Sarah Palmer in part 14 is way worse. Why? I think Cooper trying to save Laura from her death would have worked if he did that right after the original scene with Naido. Imagine if part 17 came before all that Vegas nonsense, so we have:

  • parts 1-3, as is;
  • part 4: Coop gets out to part 17 where he tries to save Laura, and just like now, Laura disappears;
  • part 5: almost the same as part 18 (yes, the Diane scene would not fit here as is);
  • parts 6-16: Cooper tries to find their way back, interacting with most original TP characters who do not recognize him/them, while at the same time also being pursued by DoppelCoop; So it is another dimension where some things are different, but most are simply the same maybe in another way; So there are this two world that are close but yet apart and he is trying to bridge them somehow and save Laura;
  • parts 17-18: Cooper ultimately realizes that he will fail trying to save Laura again, she dies while he combats DoppelCoop, probably killed by Leland again, not in the same way for sure. They all find their way into the lodge, Cooper gets out to the real TP, runs into Annie or something;
So, saving Laura could have worked temporarily, just to show that it was ultimately her fate in all these parallel universes to be a victim and that it could not have been again overcome, even if ultimately possible. So this is why I am saying what was done to Sarah was way worse, because it was done in the actual TP, unless this is somebody's dream, and then all bets are off. I am not saying this is great or final, but would have worked better that what we got. As always YMMV.

And yes, and judasbooth correctly pointed out, The Return needs to get the Armin Tamzarian treatment. :-)


I get the idea that Laura was meant to die no matter what, and that that is her destiny and salvation. But what about Cooper? Where does that ending leave him? It seems Lynch is resentful towards Coop being the embodiment of goodness and justice, the warm heart of TP. Part 18 is basically one long torture/punishment scene for Cooper. Why does Lynch hate him so, think he deserves eternity in limbo? Wasn't what happened in ep 29 enough? Wasn't 25 years imprisoned in the lodge adequate atonement for his mistakes? There's no doubt now that Lynch wants to leave TP and its fans without a glimmer of hope or warmth left. That final scene with the Tremonds/Chalfonts (the mischievous creatures from the original series and FWWM) living inside the Palmer house assures it. And what about this version of Laura as Carrie, a cold, possibly murderous woman running away from something? Does Laura deserve this too? It's not about this being open-ended, it's about ending it with such darkness and nihilism. The characters deserved better. WE, the fans who adored TP for the goodness that stood beside the darkness and tried to fight back, deserved better. Nothing in TP or FWWM was ever this hopeless and bleak, even Laura's death in FWWM provided a haunting release for her tortured character. This ending is pure blackness, pure hopelessness, and God only knows why Lynch thinks this is the best way to honor the memory of one of his most beautiful and popular creations.
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Nighthawk
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Nighthawk » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:20 am

As with many others here, the finale has left me disappointed. Not with the open ended cliffhanger itself, which I expected, but with the meandering way we got to that point. I can't help, but to think that Lynch was flying by the seat of his pants, not knowing exactly where the story should go, even as they were shooting.

The biggest gripe that I have in the end is that we didn't see the essence of Twin Peaks since the end of season 2. FWWM had a lot of artistic merit in its own right, but it was not TP. It was a film noir. Season 3 followed a pattern similar to FWWM and not the original series. The brilliance in TP was that it showed warmth, charm, and humor juxtaposed against unspeakable evil, happily coinciding and even overlapping. Reducing it to near constant doom and glum actually impoverishes the message. It becomes a lot more one dimensional and, I have to say, less relatable. I appreciate the artistry of part 8, as well as several others from season 3, but on the whole, I still consider the first 2 seasons as an overall superior work of art.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby nimeoa » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:40 am

"There's a sort of evil out there. Something very, very strange in these old woods. Call it what you want. A darkness, a presence. It takes many forms but... its been out there for as long as anyone can remember and we've always been here to fight it."

Well Harry, that evil won and there's no one left to fight it.

Ugh, I still can't get over how bad this shit was.
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AhmedKhalifa
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:44 am

nimeoa wrote:"There's a sort of evil out there. Something very, very strange in these old woods. Call it what you want. A darkness, a presence. It takes many forms but... its been out there for as long as anyone can remember and we've always been here to fight it."

Well Harry, that evil won and there's no one left to fight it.

Ugh, I still can't get over how bad this shit was.


Exactly. 25 years later, and Lynch still thinks evil winning is the right way to go. A devastating ending to the whole story and a desecration of the original.
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depechehenke
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby depechehenke » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:03 am

So I have finally watched the last two episodes. I too struggle to come to terms on how awful the experience has been.
The 10-minute sex scene between Cooper and Diane. Why?
The Green Glove Boy - Killer Bob showdown. Eh? Is this David Lynch's ironic fuck you to marvel comic blockbuster movies? Coudn't he have done it without involving the legacy of Twin Peaks?
No, I don't think I can find anything redeeming at all when I look back at these 18 episodes. Basically 18 hours of pretentious shit.

Thank God it is over. Goodbye Twin Peaks. I will always remember your first run (yes, including the deeply flawed but still enjoyable season 2) but I don't think I can revisit you again.
Season 3 made sure of that!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:06 am

AhmedKhalifa wrote:
boske wrote:At that time when this thread veered off into a gender discussion, a month or two ago, I was wondering (to myself) if we were about to see Diane undress, as almost all the other actresses seem to have gotten the same treatment (I bet Audrey would have ended the same way in part 27). I thought it was going to be a flashback scene (probably the same for Audrey). And then DoppelDiane was shot and I scratched off this possibility. Wrong! There was still a way for DL to sneak in a scene where he'd get to direct that stuff in a close and upfront way. I could say more of what I really feel on this infatuation, but I will stop short of it. You can imagine why. Also, yes, I get it, Diane is Cooper's scarlet woman (cue the hair color), just as written about in TSHOTP, that part of the book is now worth revisiting.

Now, about the retconning part. I think what was done with Sarah Palmer in part 14 is way worse. Why? I think Cooper trying to save Laura from her death would have worked if he did that right after the original scene with Naido. Imagine if part 17 came before all that Vegas nonsense, so we have:

  • parts 1-3, as is;
  • part 4: Coop gets out to part 17 where he tries to save Laura, and just like now, Laura disappears;
  • part 5: almost the same as part 18 (yes, the Diane scene would not fit here as is);
  • parts 6-16: Cooper tries to find their way back, interacting with most original TP characters who do not recognize him/them, while at the same time also being pursued by DoppelCoop; So it is another dimension where some things are different, but most are simply the same maybe in another way; So there are this two world that are close but yet apart and he is trying to bridge them somehow and save Laura;
  • parts 17-18: Cooper ultimately realizes that he will fail trying to save Laura again, she dies while he combats DoppelCoop, probably killed by Leland again, not in the same way for sure. They all find their way into the lodge, Cooper gets out to the real TP, runs into Annie or something;
So, saving Laura could have worked temporarily, just to show that it was ultimately her fate in all these parallel universes to be a victim and that it could not have been again overcome, even if ultimately possible. So this is why I am saying what was done to Sarah was way worse, because it was done in the actual TP, unless this is somebody's dream, and then all bets are off. I am not saying this is great or final, but would have worked better that what we got. As always YMMV.

And yes, and judasbooth correctly pointed out, The Return needs to get the Armin Tamzarian treatment. :-)


I get the idea that Laura was meant to die no matter what, and that that is her destiny and salvation. But what about Cooper? Where does that ending leave him? It seems Lynch is resentful towards Coop being the embodiment of goodness and justice, the warm heart of TP. Part 18 is basically one long torture/punishment scene for Cooper. Why does Lynch hate him so, think he deserves eternity in limbo? Wasn't what happened in ep 29 enough? Wasn't 25 years imprisoned in the lodge adequate atonement for his mistakes? There's no doubt now that Lynch wants to leave TP and its fans without a glimmer of hope or warmth left. That final scene with the Tremonds/Chalfonts (the mischievous creatures from the original series and FWWM) living inside the Palmer house assures it. And what about this version of Laura as Carrie, a cold, possibly murderous woman running away from something? Does Laura deserve this too? It's not about this being open-ended, it's about ending it with such darkness and nihilism. The characters deserved better. WE, the fans who adored TP for the goodness that stood beside the darkness and tried to fight back, deserved better. Nothing in TP or FWWM was ever this hopeless and bleak, even Laura's death in FWWM provided a haunting release for her tortured character. This ending is pure blackness, pure hopelessness, and God only knows why Lynch thinks this is the best way to honor the memory of one of his most beautiful and popular creations.

It felt like to me, and I wrote that earlier in this thread, that it appeared as if Lynch was subconsciously jealous of Cooper as a character. For that reason Cooper went to Dougie LV purgatory while Gordon Cole got to parade around with Tammy, a very fine bottle of Bordeau, Monica Belucci, the South Dakota escort lady, and, let us not forget that, had to send a clear message that he is adamantly still "not soft where it matters". This whole show has been such a self-indulging vomit, it is hard to find a decent thing in it. I mean, what woke Cooper up? Not coffee, not cherry pies, not American flag nor anthem, not a police badge, not sex, not Ike the Spike, not Philip Gerard and the full power of the lodge, but just a single very mention of the almighty glorious name of his vengeful master Gordon Cole, who is the only character that is supposed to look cool in this charade. What a joke, what a pathetic joke.
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boske
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:13 am

depechehenke wrote:So I have finally watched the last two episodes. I too struggle to come to terms on how awful the experience has been.
The 10-minute sex scene between Cooper and Diane. Why?

How many takes do you think they did? Pay attention to where the camera is most of the time in that scene.
depechehenke wrote:No, I don't think I can find anything redeeming at all when I look back at these 18 episodes. Basically 18 hours of pretentious shit. Thank God it is over. Goodbye Twin Peaks. I will always remember your first run (yes, including the deeply flawed but still enjoyable season 2) but I don't think I can revisit you again.
Season 3 made sure of that!

Yeah, once this threads wraps up, off I go too.
depechehenke
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby depechehenke » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:41 am

boske wrote:
depechehenke wrote:So I have finally watched the last two episodes. I too struggle to come to terms on how awful the experience has been.
The 10-minute sex scene between Cooper and Diane. Why?

How many takes do you think they did? Pay attention to where the camera is most of the time in that scene.
depechehenke wrote:No, I don't think I can find anything redeeming at all when I look back at these 18 episodes. Basically 18 hours of pretentious shit. Thank God it is over. Goodbye Twin Peaks. I will always remember your first run (yes, including the deeply flawed but still enjoyable season 2) but I don't think I can revisit you again.
Season 3 made sure of that!

Yeah, once this threads wraps up, off I go too.


"He is not the Messiah! He is a very naughty boy!"
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boske
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:42 am

Great post BOB1!

BOB1 wrote:Please remember that I'm still showing good will and not asking questions like whatever happened to the New York glass box, Red the coin master, Ruth Davenport's head (or was it body?) and such like shite. Oh, and boske's beloved puke analysis results!

:lol: Yeah, it looks like I have a soft spot for those.

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