Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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AhmedKhalifa
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:43 am

boske wrote:
AhmedKhalifa wrote:
boske wrote:At that time when this thread veered off into a gender discussion, a month or two ago, I was wondering (to myself) if we were about to see Diane undress, as almost all the other actresses seem to have gotten the same treatment (I bet Audrey would have ended the same way in part 27). I thought it was going to be a flashback scene (probably the same for Audrey). And then DoppelDiane was shot and I scratched off this possibility. Wrong! There was still a way for DL to sneak in a scene where he'd get to direct that stuff in a close and upfront way. I could say more of what I really feel on this infatuation, but I will stop short of it. You can imagine why. Also, yes, I get it, Diane is Cooper's scarlet woman (cue the hair color), just as written about in TSHOTP, that part of the book is now worth revisiting.

Now, about the retconning part. I think what was done with Sarah Palmer in part 14 is way worse. Why? I think Cooper trying to save Laura from her death would have worked if he did that right after the original scene with Naido. Imagine if part 17 came before all that Vegas nonsense, so we have:

  • parts 1-3, as is;
  • part 4: Coop gets out to part 17 where he tries to save Laura, and just like now, Laura disappears;
  • part 5: almost the same as part 18 (yes, the Diane scene would not fit here as is);
  • parts 6-16: Cooper tries to find their way back, interacting with most original TP characters who do not recognize him/them, while at the same time also being pursued by DoppelCoop; So it is another dimension where some things are different, but most are simply the same maybe in another way; So there are this two world that are close but yet apart and he is trying to bridge them somehow and save Laura;
  • parts 17-18: Cooper ultimately realizes that he will fail trying to save Laura again, she dies while he combats DoppelCoop, probably killed by Leland again, not in the same way for sure. They all find their way into the lodge, Cooper gets out to the real TP, runs into Annie or something;
So, saving Laura could have worked temporarily, just to show that it was ultimately her fate in all these parallel universes to be a victim and that it could not have been again overcome, even if ultimately possible. So this is why I am saying what was done to Sarah was way worse, because it was done in the actual TP, unless this is somebody's dream, and then all bets are off. I am not saying this is great or final, but would have worked better that what we got. As always YMMV.

And yes, and judasbooth correctly pointed out, The Return needs to get the Armin Tamzarian treatment. :-)


I get the idea that Laura was meant to die no matter what, and that that is her destiny and salvation. But what about Cooper? Where does that ending leave him? It seems Lynch is resentful towards Coop being the embodiment of goodness and justice, the warm heart of TP. Part 18 is basically one long torture/punishment scene for Cooper. Why does Lynch hate him so, think he deserves eternity in limbo? Wasn't what happened in ep 29 enough? Wasn't 25 years imprisoned in the lodge adequate atonement for his mistakes? There's no doubt now that Lynch wants to leave TP and its fans without a glimmer of hope or warmth left. That final scene with the Tremonds/Chalfonts (the mischievous creatures from the original series and FWWM) living inside the Palmer house assures it. And what about this version of Laura as Carrie, a cold, possibly murderous woman running away from something? Does Laura deserve this too? It's not about this being open-ended, it's about ending it with such darkness and nihilism. The characters deserved better. WE, the fans who adored TP for the goodness that stood beside the darkness and tried to fight back, deserved better. Nothing in TP or FWWM was ever this hopeless and bleak, even Laura's death in FWWM provided a haunting release for her tortured character. This ending is pure blackness, pure hopelessness, and God only knows why Lynch thinks this is the best way to honor the memory of one of his most beautiful and popular creations.

It felt like to me, and I wrote that earlier in this thread, that it appeared as if Lynch was subconsciously jealous of Cooper as a character. For that reason Cooper went to Dougie LV purgatory while Gordon Cole got to parade around with Tammy, a very fine bottle of Bordeau, Monica Belucci, the South Dakota escort lady, and, let us not forget that, had to send a clear message that he is adamantly still "not soft where it matters". This whole show has been such a self-indulging vomit, it is hard to find a decent thing in it. I mean, what woke Cooper up? Not coffee, not cherry pies, not American flag nor anthem, not a police badge, not sex, not Ike the Spike, not Philip Gerard and the full power of the lodge, but just a single very mention of the almighty glorious name of his vengeful master Gordon Cole, who is the only character that is supposed to look cool in this charade. What a joke, what a pathetic joke.


Couldn't agree more. David Lynch as Gordon Cole is the only character that got served well here. Even the shot of Coop and Diane heading to the boiler room had to include Cole walking beside Cooper. Not Albert, who got very little to do in TR. The worst of the worst of vanity projects, and the media's silence regarding that aspect is staggering, since it's so obvious and cringe-worthy.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rhodes » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:12 am

musicaddict wrote:Sheryl Lee wasted in a handful of scenes.


Why are people always so eager to give Sheryl Lee a lot of screentime? She is a dead girl. And yes, because it's Twin Peaks, there are ways to work around that fact. But it is precisely these scenes that should be very scarce in order to be epic (just like the scenes with MFAP for example).

Do we need to see Sheryl Lee every episode? Drinking coffee in RR? Tutoring Johnnie? I thought Lynch handled Sheryl Lee's role in The Return perfectly. Just perfectly. She was hardly shown, and yet she was the most important and mysterious one of them all. "Dead, and yet she lived".
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:26 am

I watched the last two parts in spite of my better judgement.

There was some terrible stuff in it, the Green Glove Boy scene is presumably deliberately abysmal. But deliberately abysmal does not equal good.

Laura has always been the character I loved most and so I have to admit that the scenes with her were maybe the only ones in TPTR that I found gripping. But why did Lynch have to do this to her and Coop? The FWWM ending was so perfect.

I'm sure I'll just get accused of wanting a happy ending now. My point is that there is enough garbage in TPTR to pan Lynch artistically (and many posters in this thread have done a way better job than I could), so rather than focus on the very poor quality of acting, writing, effects, etc I'll admit that I'm pretty sad to see this ending. It's a little overly nihilistic for my tastes. Not to say that nihilism means bad art and so this isn't really a criticism of TPTR (although I certainly have many of those) but, yeah, like Ahmed said, this is terrible. Whenever we see or think of Coop or Laura now, we'll know that basically eternal torture/confusion was their fate.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:29 am

Another thing that has changed for the worse with the Return was the "lodge access points". In the original one needed to know the location, the time, and equally importantly have "love" or "fear" to open the door. Why did Windom Earle drag Annie with him? Because she was pretty? No, he needed some absolute fear to unlock the lodge doors.

Nowadays, these access points proliferate like Starbucks. All it takes is to go to a front yard of a home in South Dakota and there is a vortex ready to lift you up to the Jeffries Motel. The same with Great Northern.

While we are talking these coordinates, did we ever find what Mr C was after? To go to the Fireman's place? He did! Nothing happened, he was kicked out in no time. What was he to do there anyway? Paint it black? Spray it with graffiti? Trash the furniture?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby musicaddict » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:32 am

Rhodes wrote:
musicaddict wrote:Sheryl Lee wasted in a handful of scenes.


Why are people always so eager to give Sheryl Lee a lot of screentime? She is a dead girl. And yes, because it's Twin Peaks, there are ways to work around that fact. But it is precisely these scenes that should be very scarce in order to be epic (just like the scenes with MFAP for example).

Do we need to see Sheryl Lee every episode? Drinking coffee in RR? Tutoring Johnnie? I thought Lynch handled Sheryl Lee's role in The Return perfectly. Just perfectly. She was hardly shown, and yet she was the most important and mysterious one of them all. "Dead, and yet she lived".

No but she could have been another incarnation ala Maddie. Also the way the show used her image it was definitely marketed as though she was going to be a major factor in the new series which she turned out not to be.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby SpookySculder » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:36 am

UGH. Yes. [I did have this feeling in the first half that it was the Naomi Watts show. Then Laura Dern took over. And Lynch himself had way too much screen time. Combine that with all the new characters he brought on to steal screen time for, as we know now, NO apparent reason or story. For me, I felt it was a slap in the face to all the original actors who returned to work with Lynch. It pains me to think the time wasted on literally *nothing* when these original actors returned and could have been utilized so much more efficiently so we could have a proper continuation of the TP universe. Not saying there shouldn't have been new characters at all. Just a better balance between old and new..... and you know.... actual character development AND story. Not too much to ask.

I'm just sad because I was under the impression Lynch really cared about these characters we know and love and I feel like he just threw them to the curb for what ended up amounting to nothing. It would have felt less disrespectful if he didn't invite these actors back at all. What he did to these characters is just so sad. This was supposed to be a RETURN to Twin Peaks. We got very little that resembled TP.

Esselgee wrote:I think a big problem with The Return is due to Lynch's fascination with Laura Dern and Naomi Watts. This necessitated them getting the biggest female parts over any of the returning females. Lynch then had to make them both love interests for Cooper, who has long been described as representing Lynch himself. He also had to give them both sex scenes with Cooper. Maybe at this point having a still very hot Heather Graham hook up with a now old Cooper would have been too unrealistic.

So this is still on track to win all those awards I've seen so many people say it is guaranteed to win, right? I'm sure it'll sweep the Emmys next year. :roll:
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:45 am

Did anybody else notice how the waitress at the Judy diner resembled Annie?

Regarding Annie, I just want to say one thing: you L&F took all the stuff from FWWM, including the ring, the pole, Fat Trout's, Carl Rodd, 10 minutes of Laura and James' scenes, and who knows what else, and you had no time to address the very person that got Cooper into the lodge (he did not go there for Laura), the person he sacrificed everything for, someone who was the critical as part of that memorable cliffhanger, and you just gave her a one brief mention?! Despicable.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:50 am

boske wrote:Did anybody else notice how the waitress at the Judy diner resembled Annie?

Regarding Annie, I just want to say one thing: you L&F took all the stuff from FWWM, including the ring, the pole, Fat Trout's, Carl Rodd, 10 minutes of Laura and James' scenes, and who knows what else, and you had no time to address the very person that got Cooper into the lodge (he did not go there for Laura), the person he sacrificed everything for, someone who was the critical as part of that memorable cliffhanger, and you just gave her a one brief mention?! Despicable.


Totally. Still, with that one measly mention, she at least fares 100 % better than Windom Earle - he was passed over like a dog turd.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rhodes » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:51 am

musicaddict wrote:
Rhodes wrote:
musicaddict wrote:Sheryl Lee wasted in a handful of scenes.


Why are people always so eager to give Sheryl Lee a lot of screentime? She is a dead girl. And yes, because it's Twin Peaks, there are ways to work around that fact. But it is precisely these scenes that should be very scarce in order to be epic (just like the scenes with MFAP for example).

Do we need to see Sheryl Lee every episode? Drinking coffee in RR? Tutoring Johnnie? I thought Lynch handled Sheryl Lee's role in The Return perfectly. Just perfectly. She was hardly shown, and yet she was the most important and mysterious one of them all. "Dead, and yet she lived".

No but she could have been another incarnation ala Maddie. Also the way the show used her image it was definitely marketed as though she was going to be a major factor in the new series which she turned out not to be.


She did turn out to be a major factor. As I explained in my previous post. She was even more important than in the original run. But without having a lot of screentime.

LMFAP is also more important than Dick Tremeyne or Catherine Martell, although they had more screentime.

And another Maddie? Why? Why are you dissapointed about a non-existing character not coming into existence? You say basically that Sherlyl Lee should have been used for the sake of being used. And because they decided against it, Sheryl Lee was wasted? Really?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:57 am

Was Sheryl Lee wasted? I agree that with the lodge and its denizens, less is definitely more. But they had Sheryl merely repeat the original scene, minus the iconic "sometimes my arms bend back" part, and then had her whisked away. So it is a waste. And yes, Ray Wise was definitely wasted. "Find Laura..."? Could they have used him for less than that?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rhodes » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:57 am

boske wrote:Did anybody else notice how the waitress at the Judy diner resembled Annie?

Regarding Annie, I just want to say one thing: you L&F took all the stuff from FWWM, including the ring, the pole, Fat Trout's, Carl Rodd, 10 minutes of Laura and James' scenes, and who knows what else, and you had no time to address the very person that got Cooper into the lodge (he did not go there for Laura), the person he sacrificed everything for, someone who was the critical as part of that memorable cliffhanger, and you just gave her a one brief mention?! Despicable.


I always said that the worst parts of season 2 were NOT Little Nicky or Evelyn March, but:
1. Annie (rushed, unbelievable, not funny, making Audrey less relevant).
2. Windom Earle (the stupid chess plot, the fake moustache, the very WORST follow-up for the Laura-mystery).

Lynch agrees with me that season 2 "sucked". And I'm now sure that he agrees with me on Annie and Earle. And he made a statement by not even dignifying them with some screentime.

Personally, I would have favored at least a mention of Windom (or even a 5 second scene in the lodge, please no more). And I think that the "'How's Annie" cliffhanger should have been handled a little bit more extensively. I understand that Heather Graham was willing to participate. Despite disliking her character, I think she should have had a couple of minutes.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby musicaddict » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:59 am

Rhodes wrote:
musicaddict wrote:
Rhodes wrote:
Why are people always so eager to give Sheryl Lee a lot of screentime? She is a dead girl. And yes, because it's Twin Peaks, there are ways to work around that fact. But it is precisely these scenes that should be very scarce in order to be epic (just like the scenes with MFAP for example).

Do we need to see Sheryl Lee every episode? Drinking coffee in RR? Tutoring Johnnie? I thought Lynch handled Sheryl Lee's role in The Return perfectly. Just perfectly. She was hardly shown, and yet she was the most important and mysterious one of them all. "Dead, and yet she lived".

No but she could have been another incarnation ala Maddie. Also the way the show used her image it was definitely marketed as though she was going to be a major factor in the new series which she turned out not to be.


She did turn out to be a major factor. As I explained in my previous post. She was even more important than in the original run. But without having a lot of screentime.

LMFAP is also more important than Dick Tremeyne or Catherine Martell, although they had more screentime.

And another Maddie? Why? Why are you dissapointed about a non-existing character not coming into existence? You say basically that Sherlyl Lee should have been used for the sake of being used. And because they decided against it, Sheryl Lee was wasted? Really?

Chill out. I am entitled to my opinion. You don't agree fine but don't hound me for not agreeing with you..
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rhodes » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:00 am

boske wrote:Was Sheryl Lee wasted? I agree that with the lodge and its denizens, less is definitely more. But they had Sheryl merely repeat the original scene, minus the iconic "sometimes my arms bend back" part, and then had her whisked away. So it is a waste. And yes, Ray Wise was definitely wasted. "Find Laura..."? Could they have used him for less than that?


An actor is not "wasted" just for having little screentime. He/she is only wasted if very good opportunities are missed because of this little screentime.

Musicaddict makes it very clear that she should have been used regardless of the plot or story. Just for the sake of including her.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:01 am

Rhodes wrote:Lynch agrees with me that season 2 "sucked". And I'm now sure that he agrees with me on Annie and Earle. And he made a statement by not even dignifying them with some screentime.

Personally, I would have favored at least a mention of Windom (or even a 5 second scene in the lodge, please no more). And I think that the "'How's Annie" cliffhanger should have been handled a little bit more extensively. I understand that Heather Graham was willing to participate. Despite disliking her character, I think she should have had a couple of minutes.

Now, how is it that Lynch never said that the part where he got to kiss Shelley sucked?

Edit: I would rather say that you agree with Lynch and not the other way around. And for the record, I will take the Pine Weasel and Dick Tremayne any time over TR, any time.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby SpookySculder » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:10 am

Speaking of Sheryl (not Laura) specifically, maybe it's just an expectation I had, but when you know the history of what happened......That she was just supposed to be brought on for a few days to play a corpse, but L&F liked her so much they wanted to keep her so they developed another character. When you're constantly hearing over the years how Lynch would have brought her back as a third character, when you hear Lynch telling Sheryl to her face "you got the stuff" and all that.... yes, an expectation arose in me to see her more. Laura or not. The whole "Laura is dead" is not an excuse for not seeing her on screen. Lynch finds ways around that stuff, as we know.

Poor Ray Wise. ONE measly line. 99% of the returning cast was wasted in the RETURN

boske wrote:Was Sheryl Lee wasted? I agree that with the lodge and its denizens, less is definitely more. But they had Sheryl merely repeat the original scene, minus the iconic "sometimes my arms bend back" part, and then had her whisked away. So it is a waste. And yes, Ray Wise was definitely wasted. "Find Laura..."? Could they have used him for less than that?

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