Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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IcedOver
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:13 pm

AhmedKhalifa wrote:I don't think Lynch hates TP. I think he hates everything that he didn't have total control over, which means basically the majority of season 1 and 2, and TPTR was his chance to retcon/wipe clean/reshape the entire mythology in his image. In doing so he basically undermined if not totally destroyed the foundation of the show and everything that made it special in the first place. I think his worldview has also changed quite a bit in the past three decades. I think he's much less of a romantic than he used to be, and seems to lean more towards nihilism and pessimism now. TR definitely reflects that.


I mostly agree with this. The finale of "Return" has definitely marked it as a very negative, absurdist/existential work. I was expecting a happy ending, and it looked like that might be coming (even in such a clunkily-directed fashion as the police station scene was). Of course Lynch includes those kinds of happy endings, and you'd think that would be appropriate for a show that should be full of emotion and pathos. The whole season was devoid of emotion and introspection, and I guess it's not too surprising that he concluded it in a very dark and fearsome place. The one happy point aside from Ed/Norma (Dougie coming home) felt almost like a perfunctory throwaway. Lynch usually seems like a pretty happy guy, personally, and he's all into personal growth and meditation and all that. Given that, I thought that this show would kind of be about overcoming the depression that the evil spirits in this and his other work represent (the "negative force"). Instead, most characters, including Cooper, just become further victims.

I looked at a review, and they summed it up with the familiar phrase "You can't go home again." I think that idea has swum throughout this show. Many of the characters are in different places than they were 25 years ago, or are stuck in bad situations. So is Lynch. He isn't letting the viewer off easily by giving them what they want, bringing them back in a wave of nostalgia to 1990. He just didn't feel like replicating anything from the previous (which is fine, mind you). As a man in his 70s, this is just what he wanted to do, and his worldview is perhaps darker. A kid gets killed in a hit and run, another is sick with some hellish disease, another is left to fend for himself and witness a car explosion while his mom overdoses, James was in an accident and now stutters, Sarah is possessed by a demon, Cooper is split into a saint and a demon, Audrey is prisoner in some kind of hell, et cetera. Nothing is explained, nothing makes sense, nothing is resolved. This is all good stuff, mind you. I just think, and some others have said this, that these sentiments could have been expressed while also presenting some engaging characters and plots that resonate on anywhere close to an emotional level.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby BOB1 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:19 pm

boske wrote:While we are talking these coordinates, did we ever find what Mr C was after? To go to the Fireman's place? He did! Nothing happened, he was kicked out in no time. What was he to do there anyway? Paint it black? Spray it with graffiti? Trash the furniture?


After all I find Mr C an unsuccesful character. He had his moments, undoubtedly, including one of the better scenes of all The Return - the "cow jumped over the moon" phone call. The exposition of the character worked, too: I had a completely different idea of "bad Coop" but my expectations don't matter, he had a certain style and made a certain impression; it made sense. The problem is, throughout 18 parts namely nothing changed about him. He always behaved the same way, he was always after the same goal ('I want those coordinates!') and he never started to be more scary or more ominous than he appeared in Part 1.

And the coordinates... nah, that has to wait for my topic (another one ;)) with a list of most useless subplots of the Return!

powerleftist wrote:I don’t think anybody could watch this season again sitting through all those boring conversations again.

Actually I could! The Roadhouse scenes (apart from one, at the end of Pt 12 I think) were one of the few things which I really liked in The Return.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby BOB1 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:20 pm

BOB1 wrote:
boske wrote:While we are talking these coordinates, did we ever find what Mr C was after? To go to the Fireman's place? He did! Nothing happened, he was kicked out in no time. What was he to do there anyway? Paint it black? Spray it with graffiti? Trash the furniture?


After all I find Mr C an unsuccesful character. He had his moments, undoubtedly, including one of the better scenes of all The Return - the "cow jumped over the moon" phone call. The exposition of the character worked, too: I had a completely different idea of "bad Coop" but my expectations don't matter, he had a certain style and made a certain impression; it made sense. The problem is, throughout 18 parts namely nothing changed about him. He always behaved the same way, he was always after the same goal ('I want those coordinates!') and he never started to be more scary or more ominous than he appeared in Part 1.

And the coordinates... nah, that has to wait for my topic (another one ;)) with a list of most useless subplots of the Return!

powerleftist wrote:I don’t think anybody could watch this season again sitting through all those boring conversations again.

Actually I could! The Roadhouse scenes (apart from one, at the end of Pt 12 I think) were one of the few things which I really liked in The Return.



IcedOver wrote:I looked at a review, and they summed it up with the familiar phrase "You can't go home again." I think that idea has swum throughout this show. Many of the characters are in different places than they were 25 years ago, or are stuck in bad situations. So is Lynch. He isn't letting the viewer off easily by giving them what they want, bringing them back in a wave of nostalgia to 1990. He just didn't feel like replicating anything from the previous (which is fine, mind you). As a man in his 70s, this is just what he wanted to do, and his worldview is perhaps darker. A kid gets killed in a hit and run, another is sick with some hellish disease, another is left to fend for himself and witness a car explosion while his mom overdoses, James was in an accident and now stutters, Sarah is possessed by a demon, Cooper is split into a saint and a demon, Audrey is prisoner in some kind of hell, et cetera. Nothing is explained, nothing makes sense, nothing is resolved. This is all good stuff, mind you. I just think, and some others have said this, that these sentiments could have been expressed while also presenting some engaging characters and plots that resonate on anywhere close to an emotional level.


Now all this paragraph is something I very deeply agree with!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby SpookySculder » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:32 pm

I looked at a review, and they summed it up with the familiar phrase "You can't go home again." I think that idea has swum throughout this show. Many of the characters are in different places than they were 25 years ago, or are stuck in bad situations. So is Lynch. He isn't letting the viewer off easily by giving them what they want, bringing them back in a wave of nostalgia to 1990. He just didn't feel like replicating anything from the previous (which is fine, mind you). As a man in his 70s, this is just what he wanted to do, and his worldview is perhaps darker. A kid gets killed in a hit and run, another is sick with some hellish disease, another is left to fend for himself and witness a car explosion while his mom overdoses, James was in an accident and now stutters, Sarah is possessed by a demon, Cooper is split into a saint and a demon, Audrey is prisoner in some kind of hell, et cetera. Nothing is explained, nothing makes sense, nothing is resolved. This is all good stuff, mind you. I just think, and some others have said this, that these sentiments could have been expressed while also presenting some engaging characters and plots that resonate on anywhere close to an emotional level.


This is what eventually did the show in for me. I had my small criticisms early on but I was still enjoying the show and was excited to see where it was headed. As it went on, lack of fleshed out characters and consistency in story really tried my patience. THEN to get such a dissatisfying ending..... :x
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:42 pm

BOB1 wrote:After all I find Mr C an unsuccesful character. He had his moments, undoubtedly, including one of the better scenes of all The Return - the "cow jumped over the moon" phone call. The exposition of the character worked, too: I had a completely different idea of "bad Coop" but my expectations don't matter, he had a certain style and made a certain impression; it made sense. The problem is, throughout 18 parts namely nothing changed about him. He always behaved the same way, he was always after the same goal ('I want those coordinates!') and he never started to be more scary or more ominous than he appeared in Part 1.

And the coordinates... nah, that has to wait for my topic (another one ;)) with a list of most useless subplots of the Return!


Yes, this is one of my biggest sore spots for this show/movie. We learn absolutely nothing about Mr. Cooper. The unusual story structure between episodes hurt all the characters, but the fact that he was either in jail or on the road for a large portion strangled his character. Look at when he picks up Richard. That would have been the ideal place for him to explain who he is, what he's looking for, and to develop Richard as well. Instead, we don't get that conversation at all, just silent driving. Of course Lynch has never been one for conventionally three-dimensional characters, but the characters in this show make Nikki Grace/Susan Blue, for instance, look like a fully fleshed-out character. Mr. Cooper was occasionally fun to watch, and his appearance fits in with the absurd nature of the show, but who is he, what did he want, and why?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:45 pm

Dreamy Audrey wrote:I don't have anything against retconning, there are shows that do it well, but I hate the retconning of Laura's murder. What's the point of saving Laura, a girl who has been dead for 25 years? Can't she rest in piece? People are murdered all the time, what is so special about Laura that she gets to be "saved" (and has to suffer again)? People who dislike the new series are accused of being nostalgic because supposedly they only want to see the old characters and that they don't want to see something new. But it seemed to me more like Lynch just couldn't let go of the Laura character. Instead of telling us a new story, it was all about Laura and everyone was still so sad and affected by her death 25 years later (like when Bobby cried when he saw her photo, even though it was said in season 1 that he didn't love her). And retconning the story isn't something new and never-done-before either, it just seems like the usual butterfly effect story that has been done before countless times. You change the past, something goes wrong. How original. Absolutely brilliant :roll:
Furthermore, I always thought that Laura's murder in series 1 was very tragic. If she is alive again, her death in season 1 has less impact, in my opinion. And if Cooper saved her and therefore her body is not found in the new timeline, Cooper never has a reason to come to Twin Peaks in the first place, so all of seasons 1-2 are erased. This means everything we loved about Twin Peaks never happened :(
By the way, I thought the new Laura scenes mixed in with the old scenes from FWWM was done really bad. You'd think with the budget he got, Lynch would have been able to get a wig that at least slightly resembled Laura's wig from FWWM. Laura looked so different that it took me right out of the scenes.


I wrote this in the episode thread, about the reading which makes the most sense to me:

"The remaining hour and a half of Twin Peaks: The Return proceeds to dismantle everything that has gone before—all three seasons of it. As foolish as it is to spin theories about any David Lynch film, I’m going to go out on that limb and insist that there was no time travel, no multiple dimensions or alternate realities. What we’ve seen so far, over 48 episodes and more than 25 years, has been the dream of a man named Richard, a man who lives a long way from the misty, haunted forests of northeastern Washington state."

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/tele ... iewed.html

This ties in with the Monica Belluci scene. Twin Peaks as we know it essentially ends with the sex scene. Everything has been a dream. Highly unsatisfactory, but it gives a plausible reason for all the retconning and fragmented bollox we've had to endure this season.

Dreamy Audrey wrote:I don't know why I was so surprised that episodes 17-18 were so bad. When the new series started and I watched the first episode, I had a bad feeling about it early on and wasn't able to connect to it. I almost gave up after Part 8 because there hadn't been anything I liked about it and I didn't want to waste more money on the remaining episodes. But I decided to give it another chance because of my love for the original series. I liked it a bit more on re-watch and thought the story was improving with parts 7 and 9 because we got a few scenes that actually took place in Twin Peaks, and I was sure if I was patient, I would be rewarded. I was still mostly disappointed by the following episodes, but creating theories and looking for clues was fun and made the series seem better than it was, and then there was episode 15, which I really liked. I guess this was what misled me to think the final episodes might turn out okay, but Part 16 (which I disliked again) should have given me a clue. Unfortunately, I was very excited for Parts 17 and 18 and stayed up all night to watch it at 4am, only to realize within the first few minutes that it was awful and would end in a bad way :(


Right there with you. Something was off from the beginning, but 7 and 9 gave renewed hope. Convinced myself that patience and effort would be rewarded. I gave up halfway through episode 13. After 30 minutes was shared between Vegas and Mr C's arm wrestling I just yawned and realized I didn't care anymore.

Dreamy Audrey wrote:By the way, do you think I should discourage my family from watching this? We usually enjoy the same shows and films, but sometimes we have a completely different opinion about a show. A lot of people seem to like TPTR so I think it would be unfair of me to tell my family that this show sucked when they might actually like it. On the other hand I really don't want them to spend money and time on this show and have to sit through it hoping it might get better, only to be disappointed and sad like me.


Be honest. Most people either love or hate this show. The opening episodes will give a pretty good sample of how they are going to enjoy the season. If they hate it, they're probably not going to be swayed, and vice versa.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby BOB1 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:48 pm

IcedOver wrote:but who is he, what did he want, and why?



One would think that he should be a garmonbozia consumer... only he doesn't really seem that way, does he? He hurts people alright, kills them or rapes but I don't see any pleasure in him.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:50 pm

Guys, take a looksie at this jewel of reasoning over from the Profoundly Satisfied group:

"Now that the return is over the "disappointed" thread can die a well deserved death, everyone can have an opinion but what I found over there was drivel spilling out from people that felt entitled to a version of S3 they felt they deserved.. and since episode 18 rather then submit and jump over to the other side the feelings on the disappointed thread are becoming more and more disparate... nit picking rather then unpacking, it begs the questions, what did you want? you cant seriously want cooper to return to TP, and battle it out with BOB/Dopplecoop - save the day - stop of and save Audrey drive to the RR in time for Big Eds wedding with Norma and a final coffee and pie, while Bobby and James hug and remember the good times with Laura... this cant be the closer that the profoundly disappointed wanted but if not the magic that we got with part 17 and 18 then the only alternative is described above and if that is the kind of complete closer you wanted then seriously what were you doing here in the first place...."

Seriously, how clueless can you be???? Ah, well, at least it'll keep me LOL-ing throughout the night, that's fo' sure! :D
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby riesje » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:16 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
Seriously, how clueless can you be???? Ah, well, at least it'll keep me LOL-ing throughout the night, that's fo' sure! :D


thats pretty condescending. I think he asked a valid question about how you would be satisfied, what kind of S3 would you rather have? When I browse through this thread where people just want to strike off character arcs, like that only matters. Lynch isnt intrested in that at all, never was. I think you're looking at a J. Michael Straczynski leading S3, where every character arc is nicely resolved, but thats not why I watched Twin Peaks, and would frankly defeat ANY purpose for this season.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:18 pm

riesje wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:
Seriously, how clueless can you be???? Ah, well, at least it'll keep me LOL-ing throughout the night, that's fo' sure! :D


thats pretty condescending. I think he asked a valid question about how you would be satisfied, what kind of S3 would you rather have? When I browse through this thread where people just want to strike off character arcs, like that only matters. Lynch isnt intrested in that at all, never was. I think you're looking at a J. Michael Straczynski leading S3, where every character arc is nicely resolved, but thats not why I watched Twin Peaks, and would frankly defeat ANY purpose for this season.

The only condescending person was the one who attacked our group for having a different opinion.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:29 pm

you cant seriously want cooper to return to TP, and battle it out with BOB/Dopplecoop

Nah, that would be just dumb. I would rather have a secondary character with a magic glove run in and battle it out with BOB like a character in a superhero movie. Wait...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby riesje » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:30 pm

sorry didnt realise this was ad hominem central.

yet I have to see one example of what kind of S3 you wanted? name an example of a series that resolved by your liking?

Dreamy Audrey wrote:
you cant seriously want cooper to return to TP, and battle it out with BOB/Dopplecoop

Nah, that would be just dumb. I would rather have a secondary character with a magic glove run in and battle it out with BOB like a character in a superhero movie. Wait...


Have you seen On the Air?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:43 pm

The only condescending person was the one who attacked our group for having a different opinion.


I have to say this is abit rich, given that people from the profoundly disappointed group have also being trolling the other groups calling anyone that ' has any affection for this shit' a ' pseud' etc.
It is this reek of self-congratulation which stopped me reading the posts in this group, which until a week or so ago this was the best, most interesting and considered thread on the whole of dugpa.
Now it has ( for some people, anyway) descended into taking the piss out the poor deluded fools who have enjoyed the series yadda yadda yadda. And, as you say condescendingly ( and self righteously) attacking other groups for having a different opinion.

Oh well.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby rugerblackhawk357 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:44 pm

i keep hitting this over and over again but it still bugs me. 18 EPISODES! he had 18 f***ing episodes to explore the quirky, beautiful world he and frost created in the late 80's. All the fan conventions. All the fans. He didn't have to bring it back but he did. That's on him. Not us. He could have created an entirely different universe with dozens of musical cameos and bad cgi. But he chose Twin Peaks. And he retconned it. I cancelled my subscription about half way through because I knew what was coming. Others dedicated 18 hours of their life(not counting season 1 and 2) to this. Yes, Lynch has changed TV again forever, by teaching other directors what NOT to do. Audrey deserved some kind of closure.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:55 pm

referendum wrote:
The only condescending person was the one who attacked our group for having a different opinion.


I have to say this is abit rich, given that people from the profoundly disappointed group have also being trolling the other groups calling anyone that ' has any affection for this shit' a ' pseud' etc.
It is this reek of self-congratulation which stopped me reading the posts in this group, which until a week or so ago this was the best, most interesting and considered thread on the whole of dugpa.
Now it has ( for some people, anyway) descended into taking the piss out the poor deluded fools who have enjoyed the series yadda yadda yadda. And, as you say condescendingly ( and self righteously) attacking other groups for having a different opinion.

Oh well.


How is telling us to "submit" to episode 18 and see the "magic" as if that was the only valid opinion of episode 18 not condescending and how is calling this out rich? I have seen attacks like this on both sides and I have called out people from the disappointed group before for similar comments, too. However, I have seen a lot of nasty comments against people who dislike the series throughout several threads, so don't pretend the disappointed group are the bad guys, while the satisfied are all angels.

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