Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Castledoque
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Castledoque » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:24 am

claaa7 wrote:However i dont see how these problems are laid solely at Lynchs door when, to me, the problems i have with the show is mostly related to the script. And what you mention mostly relates to that as well.


Exactly. I am not trying to absolve Lynch for the end result, but since the screenplay was a collaboration with Frost, they should both be equally accredited or blamed.
Another owl
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Another owl » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:35 am

Castledoque wrote:
claaa7 wrote:However i dont see how these problems are laid solely at Lynchs door when, to me, the problems i have with the show is mostly related to the script. And what you mention mostly relates to that as well.


Exactly. I am not trying to absolve Lynch for the end result, but since the screenplay was a collaboration with Frost, they should both be equally accredited or blamed.


To me, it is pretty obvious that Frost lost any possibility to have equal power on the decisions for the TPTR when Showtime made the decision to accept all Lynch's demands after the actors campaign for him to come back and gave him the astronomical amount of money he was asking. From this point on, it was all lost. Lynch knew he have absolute power over everything. He was calling all the shots, no doubt. And, sadly, with an ego with the size of Saturn. I blame all on him. Or, at least, 90%. Frost had no power in the TPTR dominions.
Castledoque
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Castledoque » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:45 am

Another owl wrote:To me, it is pretty obvious that Frost lost any possibility to have equal power on the decisions for the TPTR when Showtime made the decision to accept all Lynch's demands after the actors campaign for him to come back and gave him the astronomical amount of money he was asking. For this point on, it was all lost. Lynch knew he have absolute power over everything. He was calling all the shots, no doubt. And, sadly, with an ego with the size of Saturn. I blame all on him. Or, at least, 90%. Frost had no power in the TPTR dominions.

But do you really thing this series would look any better on paper? Personally I think the brilliant acting and the at least occasionally striking direction make it look better than it is. Of course this is just conjecture, but if I read the screenplay, I would probably be like: "Seriously? They want to film this mess?" Tulpas, multiple timelines, unresolved plotlines. Even the Dougie storyline that I liked came to life thanks to Naomi Watts and Kyle Maclachlan's wonderful acting. I am pretty sure that it looks like What The... on paper.

At least Showtime knew exactly what they were getting.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Framed_Angel » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:48 am

powerleftist wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:
Iron_Dwarf wrote:The point of a mystery is that one has the feeling it is solvable somehow.
This, exactly this. Anyone can write a mystery if it doesn't have to have a solution. Anyone can build a puzzle if it doesn't have to be solvable./quote]Exactly. People are trying to solve a mystery which is not there. Who wanted to be with BOB again? Do you think Lynch cares? He couldn't care less! He just throws around things hoping something sticks.
Ha! I had this notion sometime around part 5 or 6, when I was growing more perplexed with the purposelessness of all the new characters and directionless storylines. Picturing the storymaking process something like:
FROST: "I can't remember what I dreamed last night. You go first."
LYNCH: "In my dream... was a restored red convertible. Then I saw a flowered sweater!"
FROST: "Pullover, or cardigan?"
LYNCH: "Cardigan!"
FROST: "Which characters are gonna get the car and the sweater."
LYNCH: "Stephen! What's next?"
FROST: "I'm putting Janey-E in a flowered sweater then. No dream for me; but I woke to the news broadcast of a hit-&-run, a dead child..."
LYNCH: "I'LL TAKE IT!"
FROST: " OK... Stephen runs over someone in the convertible?"
LYNCH: "NO! But a little boy dies, he won't be hit by the convertible. He'll be hit by ANYTHING ELSE BUT THE CONVERTIBLE."
Frost: "Want me to throw in a wheelchair ... a nasty rash not concealed by clothing.. and how about some more boxing?"
Lynch: "Let's throw it out there and see if it will stick!"
FRost: "How about we go ahead with it even if it doesn't stick?"
LYNCH: "BY GOLLY, GOOD SIR> DO WE HAVE A DEAL OR WHAT!"
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Nighthawk
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:55 am

I think that Lynch has held a grudge of sorts against the success of the original TP. Perhaps it had something to do with it not being entirely in line with his vision or perhaps for some other unknown reason. Regardless, he has done everything since then to obliterate the idea of an idyllic little town with evil lurking beneath the surface. Both FWWM and TP:TR were a drastic change in direction towards film noir. They have a lot of artistic value as standalone creations, but they are not really TP that people came to love. For many years I considered FWWM as a type of dark interlude, given that there were supposed to be further movies in the works. Now that we have seen season 3, it is obvious that Lynch was out on a mission to reinforce the message of FWWM. I think that he bet on the wrong horse though. The original TP, with it's ingenious juxtaposition of good and evil, was far more nuanced and powerful than everything that came after. The assassination of Dale Cooper as a character was an icing on the cake... and not in a good sense.
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nick1218
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby nick1218 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:08 am

Castledoque wrote:
Another owl wrote:To me, it is pretty obvious that Frost lost any possibility to have equal power on the decisions for the TPTR when Showtime made the decision to accept all Lynch's demands after the actors campaign for him to come back and gave him the astronomical amount of money he was asking. For this point on, it was all lost. Lynch knew he have absolute power over everything. He was calling all the shots, no doubt. And, sadly, with an ego with the size of Saturn. I blame all on him. Or, at least, 90%. Frost had no power in the TPTR dominions.

But do you really thing this series would look any better on paper? Personally I think the brilliant acting and the at least occasionally striking direction make it look better than it is. Of course this is just conjecture, but if I read the screenplay, I would probably be like: "Seriously? They want to film this mess?" Tulpas, multiple timelines, unresolved plotlines. Even the Dougie storyline that I liked came to life thanks to Naomi Watts and Kyle Maclachlan's wonderful acting. I am pretty sure that it looks like What The... on paper.

At least Showtime knew exactly what they were getting.


I think some people think Lynch went off script a lot when filming. Also scripts are always written to be too long for the final cut. Looks like Lynch not only added or changed things while filming but really did not do the normal fat trimming. this should have been a 13 ep run. when we watch people driving without talking, watch people sweep floors, watch a dozen musical performances you do get that feeling.
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referendum
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:23 am

I think that Lynch has held a grudge of sorts against the success of the original TP. Perhaps it had something to do with it not being entirely in line with his vision or perhaps for some other unknown reason.


this is total bollocks. I agree with many people in here who have problems with this series,

but
no he did not do it for the money
no he did not do it to troll fans
no he is not senile.
no he does not bear a grudge against people who liked his previous work or against it's success
no 80% of the script did not come ''from a random word generator''
yes the first 2/3 of TP 1/2 was his vision and yes parts of the original ideas for a continued TP series 3 or 4 were included in this series.
yes he genuinely made the best thing he could do at the time, this time round, with the best people, with the most love.

ok?
Last edited by referendum on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Nighthawk
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:25 am

nick1218 wrote:I think some people think Lynch went off script a lot when filming. Also scripts are always written to be too long for the final cut. Looks like Lynch not only added or changed things while filming but really did not do the normal fat trimming. this should have been a 13 ep run. when we watch people driving without talking, watch people sweep floors, watch a dozen musical performances you do get that feeling.


I get the feeling that there was a 1000 page script. 100 pages were written by Lynch, 200 by Frost, and the remainder came from a random word generator. A lot of decisions about what scenes to shoot were obviously made on the spot. They were in many cases fragmented, incomplete, so Lynch had his hands full during the editing process to cobble together something resembling a plot. Even then, many story lines were essentially abandoned mid-sentence.
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Nighthawk
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:29 am

referendum wrote:
I think that Lynch has held a grudge of sorts against the success of the original TP. Perhaps it had something to do with it not being entirely in line with his vision or perhaps for some other unknown reason.


this is total bollocks. I agree with many people in here who have problems with this series,
but
no he did not do it for the money
no he did not do it to troll fans
no he is not senile.


I said none of those things. I understand that other people did, but you can address them in turn.

referendum wrote:no he does not bear a grudge against people who liked his previous work or against it's success
yes the first 2/3 of TP 1/2 was his vision and yes parts of the original ideas for a continued TP series 3 or 4 were included in this series.


Well, this is speculation... I have my opinion and you have yours. It doesn't help your case framing your opinion as a a fact.

referendum wrote:yes he genuinely made the best thing he could do at the time, this time round, with the best people, with the most love.

ok?


Umm, no.
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referendum
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:31 am

Nighthawk : Well, this is speculation... I have my opinion and you have yours. It doesn't help your case framing your opinion as a a fact.


( referendum: some kind of answer disagreeing with reasons)


NIghthawk: Umm, no. ]


you see how dumb this kind of commentary is?
my opinion isn't fact. The only reason i replied to your comment is: neither is yours.
''let's not overthink this opportunity''
Castledoque
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Castledoque » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:38 am

referendum wrote:no he did not do it for the money
no he did not do it to troll fans
no he is not senile.
no he does not bear a grudge against people who liked his previous work or against it's success
yes the first 2/3 of TP 1/2 was his vision and yes parts of the original ideas for a continued TP series 3 or 4 were included in this series.
yes he genuinely made the best thing he could do at the time, this time round, with the best people, with the most love.


I mostly agree. I do think he did the best he could with the utmost love. However based on the last episode of the new season, I also feel (conjecture again) that over the years he has become increasingly obsessed with the idea of Laura Palmer (which I don't mind), while at the same time he became subconsciously frustrated with Dale Cooper (which I do mind). Now I have to admit that Cooper's eternal optimism and boy-scout attitude in the original series occasionally grates on me, however he was an integral part of the original show bringing in some much needed balance to all the underlying darkness, therefore absolutely necessary. Now I don't mind Cooper failing yet again, but why does his character have to be poisoned in the ending? (Kyle Maclachlan has confirmed officially that he was instructed to play the Cooper of the last episode as a heavier guy). I mentioned The Godfather 3 before and truly I feel that Lynch treats Cooper in the new season much the same way Copolla treated Michael Corleone in TG3. They both lost their love for the original characters that they themselves had breathed life into.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:40 am

referendum wrote:
I think that Lynch has held a grudge of sorts against the success of the original TP. Perhaps it had something to do with it not being entirely in line with his vision or perhaps for some other unknown reason.


this is total bollocks. I agree with many people in here who have problems with this series,

but
no he did not do it for the money
no he did not do it to troll fans
no he is not senile.
no he does not bear a grudge against people who liked his previous work or against it's success
no 80% of the script did not come ''from a random word generator''
yes the first 2/3 of TP 1/2 was his vision and yes parts of the original ideas for a continued TP series 3 or 4 were included in this series.
yes he genuinely made the best thing he could do at the time, this time round, with the best people, with the most love.

ok?


Sorry but this is ridiculous. Are you David Lynch? If not how do you know the above statements to be true? You're speaking as though you have inside knowledge. I don't want to pick a fight with you but presenting these as facts is pretty unjustifiable.
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Nighthawk
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:41 am

referendum wrote:
referendum wrote:
yes he genuinely made the best thing he could do at the time, this time round, with the best people, with the most love.

ok?


NIghthawk: Umm, no. ]


you see how dumb this kind of commentary is?
my opinion isn't fact. The only reason i replied to your comment is: neither is yours.


All that I said is that I am disagreeing with you. I don't think that is dumb in and of itself.
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Gabriel
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:22 am

nick1218 wrote:I think some people think Lynch went off script a lot when filming. Also scripts are always written to be too long for the final cut. Looks like Lynch not only added or changed things while filming but really did not do the normal fat trimming. this should have been a 13 ep run. when we watch people driving without talking, watch people sweep floors, watch a dozen musical performances you do get that feeling.

When you look at how disjointed the whole thing is and you bear in mind the original talk was about an eight-nine part series, you get the impression that bits of a cohesive script are dipped into, followed by massive digressions. I wonder whether a lot of scripted material was thrown out in favour of Lynch's digressions.

I mean the very existence of The Secret History and The Final Dossier implies that there was a script of some kind from which Mark Frost was building his backstory. It's been remarked that Tammy comes over wildly differently in the TV show from The Secret History. Genuinely, I think there is a reasonable screenplay out there. I'm just not sure Lynch paid much attention to it once he got on to the set.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Another owl » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:30 am

Castledoque wrote:
Another owl wrote:To me, it is pretty obvious that Frost lost any possibility to have equal power on the decisions for the TPTR when Showtime made the decision to accept all Lynch's demands after the actors campaign for him to come back and gave him the astronomical amount of money he was asking. For this point on, it was all lost. Lynch knew he have absolute power over everything. He was calling all the shots, no doubt. And, sadly, with an ego with the size of Saturn. I blame all on him. Or, at least, 90%. Frost had no power in the TPTR dominions.

But do you really thing this series would look any better on paper? Personally I think the brilliant acting and the at least occasionally striking direction make it look better than it is. Of course this is just conjecture, but if I read the screenplay, I would probably be like: "Seriously? They want to film this mess?" Tulpas, multiple timelines, unresolved plotlines. Even the Dougie storyline that I liked came to life thanks to Naomi Watts and Kyle Maclachlan's wonderful acting. I am pretty sure that it looks like What The... on paper.

At least Showtime knew exactly what they were getting.


Well, I personally didn't like Kyle's acting that much and I thought the Dougie storyline very anoying, but what I was saying is that Lynch took over everything, and that includes the script also. I blame Frost too, of course, but only like 10%.

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