Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mine » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:36 am

Gabriel wrote:
nick1218 wrote:I think some people think Lynch went off script a lot when filming. Also scripts are always written to be too long for the final cut. Looks like Lynch not only added or changed things while filming but really did not do the normal fat trimming. this should have been a 13 ep run. when we watch people driving without talking, watch people sweep floors, watch a dozen musical performances you do get that feeling.

When you look at how disjointed the whole thing is and you bear in mind the original talk was about an eight-nine part series, you get the impression that bits of a cohesive script are dipped into, followed by massive digressions. I wonder whether a lot of scripted material was thrown out in favour of Lynch's digressions.

I mean the very existence of The Secret History and The Final Dossier implies that there was a script of some kind from which Mark Frost was building his backstory. It's been remarked that Tammy comes over wildly differently in the TV show from The Secret History. Genuinely, I think there is a reasonable screenplay out there. I'm just not sure Lynch paid much attention to it once he got on to the set.

I wonder if Frost's books are meant to be some sort of a compensation for deviations from the script, or how he envisioned The Return. The dossier is never featured in the show which is telling.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby RetconMetatron » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:01 pm

Eva Marie wrote:I'm aware of the separate gender thread but I still would like to mention here that the blatant misogyny has been unbearable in TR even by cable show and overall problematic Lynch standards. Older women are ridiculous nagging caricatures, younger ones are naked and lingerie-clad victims offered up to be horrifically murdered, and the single non-Hollywood sized woman was introduced only to be beaten to near death (Miriam). I still can't get the killing of Darya out of my head - it was the single sickest thing I've seen. And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies, it offered us the 'joys' of retro archetypes Tammy and French call girl.


I don't like The Return, but I don't get this criticism.

EVERYONE got shafted, including female characters. Are women above receiving violence, even if they are murderers themselves, which Darya most likely is, given she hangs around with Mr. C. Isn't that sexist?

What about Richard being burned alive? That's quite a horrific and violent death. Sure, he was bad, but so was Darya. Bad Coop punching her before using the gun actually enhanced the character. Mind you, I don't want a gorefest, but he's an otherwordly malevolent entity after all, yet he never showed any particular sadism. All his violence was very mechanical and gun-oriented, except for this scene. It was actually one of the better ones to establish him.

Eva Marie wrote:And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies


What about Garland Briggs' body? A beloved original character reduced to a mutilated headless meatball and made somewhat fun of in the morgue-scene. TR was quite nihilistic to everyone, it's not a "women issue".
Last edited by RetconMetatron on Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Castledoque » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:07 pm

RetconMetatron wrote:What about Richard being burned alive? That's quite a horrific and violent death.

Ah Richard Horne's sudden and violent death. If 90% of the storylines in Twin Peaks weren't suddenly abandoned or ended abruptly, this would have been one of the highlights of the season. A promising evil character with the potential to be one of the big baddies abruptly killed off by an even bigger baddie who also happens to be his father. It would have been an amazing shocking moment. As things stand, in retrospect it only feels as another abandoned/botched storyline.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby firefly2193 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:39 pm

From my point of view, its super strange that people think the main flaw in the show is Lynch's digressions. To me it seems that any problems are with the main script, and the digressions are actually the best bit (the hit n run, Bobby/Shelly at the diner with the sick boy, Sarah Palmer's scenes ...all of part 8 ) and the problems are the with most of the central plot - insurance scams are incredibly boring. Plots are structured horribly (Miriam and the letter thing, Hawk sat at a desk trying to figure out whats missing, only to solve it by going to the toilet, ....Freddie). All of these feel like Frost things to me. The whole thing is often saved by Lynch's transgressions being arresting and striking.

That being said, I'm someone who thinks the ending (at least after the Bob battle) saved it and made The Return brilliant.

I understand the problem people have with plots left hanging. They don't bother me too much, but they make complete sense. Lynch loves to leave room to imagine how things will resolve. If a Season 4 was announced, I assume this criticism would go away somewhat. Remember Twin Peaks could've finished after Season 1 and there'd be the same angry critique.

The only problem I really have with the Return, by the end of it, is some lack of fulfillment on certain plots (mother, Jeffries), a feeling that it was stretched (however, I only feel the return should've been a 14 part series, not a 9 part like some), and the Freddie character. He's the worst thing in all of Twin Peaks for me, easily worse than Little Nicky, Evelyn etc. However overall I loved it, i love that it was made, and think by the end became a brilliant addition to Twin Peaks, that contains many of the best moments in all of Twin Peaks, particularly Part 8 and the finale.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby MysteryMan14 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:50 pm

RetconMetatron wrote:
Eva Marie wrote:I'm aware of the separate gender thread but I still would like to mention here that the blatant misogyny has been unbearable in TR even by cable show and overall problematic Lynch standards. Older women are ridiculous nagging caricatures, younger ones are naked and lingerie-clad victims offered up to be horrifically murdered, and the single non-Hollywood sized woman was introduced only to be beaten to near death (Miriam). I still can't get the killing of Darya out of my head - it was the single sickest thing I've seen. And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies, it offered us the 'joys' of retro archetypes Tammy and French call girl.


I don't like The Return, but I don't get this criticism.

EVERYONE got shafted, including female characters. Are women above receiving violence, even if they are murderers themselves, which Darya most likely is, given she hangs around with Mr. C. Isn't that sexist?

What about Richard being burned alive? That's quite a horrific and violent death. Sure, he was bad, but so was Darya. Bad Coop punching her before using the gun actually enhanced the character. Mind you, I don't want a gorefest, but he's an otherwordly malevolent entity after all, yet he never showed any particular sadism. All his violence was very mechanical and gun-oriented, except for this scene. It was actually one of the better ones to establish him.

Eva Marie wrote:And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies


What about Garland Briggs' body? A beloved original character reduced to a mutilated headless meatball and made somewhat fun of in the morgue-scene. TR was quite nihilistic to everyone, it's not a "women issue".

Some folks here called Lynch a racist, guess why.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby RetconMetatron » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:01 pm

WhyLynchWhy wrote:I challenge all of you to put forward a season of any TV show ever which you consider to be worse than what we just watched so I can check it out and perhaps stop saying that this is the worst thing I've ever seen that has an IMDB page.


Season 2 of Earth: Final Conflict (EFC).

Not sure how many know this one, but it reminds me very much of S3 of Twin Peaks.

Earth is a science-fiction show from 1997 about aliens landing on earth and trying to make friends with everyone (curing AIDS etc.) Of course they have some sinister motivations up their sleeves. The premise is kinda like V, except that it was done far better. There was also an effort to truly make the aliens feel alien (translucent spirit-body and stuff).

The aliens set-up embassies on earth and our hero got recruited by the aliens as an agent doing their bidding. What they don't know is that he's an double agent working for the anti-alien resistance.

Now the episodes itself were pretty much X-files, except that the aliens were a real thing this time around, with a heavy mythology and story-arc in the background involving conspiracies and finding out the reason why aliens came to earth. There are also hints throughout the show, that the aliens are actually indeed the good guys and if the resistance would achieve their goal, it would be quite catastrophic, which puts the protagonist into the "who can you trust" spiral.

Despite the alien theme, the show was pretty grounded.

Anway, it was good stuff, for one season at least. Beginning with season 2 it all turned into shit quickly. The protagonist got the shaft and replaced by a far worse actor and character, the ambigious aliens ("Taelons") became ultra-evil, the storylines turned from "X-Files"-style conspiracy into standard over-used sci-fi fare: Alternative dimensions and time travel, and then became completely idiotic: In some episodes the Taelons become coke-heads, and the way to harvest their drug is putting people into camps where they feed them some herb which they extract later painfully from them again. In another episode they dump radioactive waste from their space ship into the atmosphere, in another they turn into some random monsters.. unbelievable bullshit, not even campy, just BAD. Way worse than S3 of TP. And as I said, it was a great show before. At least Lynch and Frost had the excuse of a 25 years gap, while S1 and S2 of Earth were just months apart.

Here are some posts from the newsgroup of the show from back in the day, it all reads very familiar!

My lifeforce being drained by watching EFC

I've noticed that after watching an episode from the second season my energy
level is nearly depleted. I've even tried recording an episode and
watching it later, but with the same results. Could it be the result of
poor writing, acting, direction? Maybe it's the result of all these
problems and a few more yet to be mentioned.


https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/sucks|sort:relevance/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/1aeU_54Kplw/0VNo8AoZP_0J

Wow I'm new here.... but I guess they screwed up the show.

I really stopped paying attention after the second season. I was
PISSED that they got rid of Boone.

Am I alone in the belief that the show looked great up until the last
episode of the first season? I was so into it! I had high hopes for
at least a six year run. They really screwed the pooch on this one.

I could barely watch it since then. I watch just for laughs now. How
many of the original characters are still on the show. HA HA But now
to replace a replacement! WOW that's really stupid.


https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/"season$202"|sort:relevance/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/TNBD-Wvne50/Q2TmMDXqssQJ

Hmmm...
That wonder of television, the weekly reset switch has finally found
E:FC.

What do we have in season 2?

parallel dimensions entered through mechanical accidents

permanent polymorphs of characters that magically turn un-permanent

time travel

superbeings that go from conception to full growth in a matter of
hours

Every one of these (terrible) concepts a common thread in Star
Trek:TNG or any of its spin-offs. Did Rick Berman somehow sneak onto
the E:FC staff.

What *was* the best thing on television, that I couldn't miss, has
quickly gone to what happened last night: I tuned in 10 minutes late
(and really didn't care that I had) and didn't tell my kids to keep it
down when they came in the house. There wasn't any dialog worth
listening to.


https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/"season$202"|sort:relevance/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/3PxEqcU6ylI/MGHPlXAneBUJ

I stopped watching EFC about halfway through season 2. I really enjoyed the
show throughout the first season - I found it insightful and intriguing,
focused on the human character rather than action sequences and special
effects. Admittedly, this doesn't appeal to everybody. Kevin Kilner's Boone
was the emotional center of the show, showcasing the conflict between the
benefits and detractions of Taelon presence. When he was killed at the
beginning of season 2 I was shocked and dismayed, but not nearly so much as I
was by the ridiculous plotlines and general writing that followed. I can't
blame it on Robert Leeshock because the show overall graduated from acceptably
farfetched sci-fi to ridiculously implausible.



https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/"season$202"|sort:relevance/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/YYs-eAZOgNM/p5S-J1o0lMkJ


OMG! That was bad. Ridiculous. Vile. Repugnant. Hideous. Take your
pick. Abomination pretty much sums it up.

This show needs to get it's act together.



https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/"season$202"|sort:relevance/alt.tv.earth-final-conflict/RgLehoIp82A/QfhPZuSHZY0J
Last edited by RetconMetatron on Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:29 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:07 pm

RetconMetatron wrote:
Eva Marie wrote:I'm aware of the separate gender thread but I still would like to mention here that the blatant misogyny has been unbearable in TR even by cable show and overall problematic Lynch standards. Older women are ridiculous nagging caricatures, younger ones are naked and lingerie-clad victims offered up to be horrifically murdered, and the single non-Hollywood sized woman was introduced only to be beaten to near death (Miriam). I still can't get the killing of Darya out of my head - it was the single sickest thing I've seen. And when TR wasn't busy brutalising, killing and sexploiting female bodies, it offered us the 'joys' of retro archetypes Tammy and French call girl.


I don't like The Return, but I don't get this criticism.

EVERYONE got shafted, including female characters.


Think about it, Gordon Cole, Andy, Sheriff Trueman, Albert, the Mitchums. Many many male characters that were dealt an even hand that the females simply weren't. Granted we were treated to Coops naked torso as an image of male beauty, albeit in the non-sexualised environment of a medical exam, it did the job for Janey-E. But we got a thread for this y'know, read though it maybe it might shed some light on why these critiques are being made.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:22 pm

Random Return Annoyance #430:

They turned Laura Palmer into a murderer.
Special Agent Dale Cooper, the Eagle Scout FBI man walks into the crimescene and does nothing.

Despite the obvious damage and lack of care this shows towards the characters.

Now if this was some metafiction about film-making and the framework of identity and actors playing roles, as Lynch has explored in the past, with Mulholland Drive and Inland Empire fine, whatever, been there seen it, done it, bought the t-shirt. But it's Twin Peaks, and it seems profoundly lazy dragging in these tired old tropes that don't underscore the series themes.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby TwistedFate_L4 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:18 pm

Eva Marie wrote:As for TV being great these days: I wholeheartedly agree. We live in the best TV age there has ever been. These days tiny brave shows that take real risks can actually survive with a niche audience and get acclaim. The international and Hollywood TV scene has finally learnt to cater to smart viewers with high artistic standards. I've practically abandoned cinema in the last couple of years. I could maybe understand how something like TR could be hailed as experimental and flying in the face of conventional programming and thus forgiven for abysmally poor quality...had it been made BEFORE the TV revolution of the last 2 decades or so. These days it just sounds dishonest. You have the option of watching even something as ' out there' as Swedish detectives dealing with shamans in the Arctic Circle while speaking Sami!!! (Midnight Sun). It's not as if there's Kardashian's butt on channel 1 and TR on channel 2 and that's it. So no excuses!


Exactly. There are so many groundbreaking, cinematic, diverse, unique shows out there these days that I find it absolutely ridiculous when people tend to act as if TV is horrible or that there's nothing worth watching. To summarize what another poster said a few pages back- When the original Twin Peaks premiered it was one of a kind, it was one of the few if not only cinematic story-driven shows on primetime TV in an era filled with nothing but sitcoms. 27 years later and you have hundreds of game changing shows and shows that delve into "weirdness" and break the mold, yes- thanks largely to the original Twin Peaks, but there's more competition out there now. I think a lot of the absurd and ridiculous elements featured in The Return was basically Lynch trying to "out do" other shows in shock value in an effort to "break TV" again but all he ended up doing was breaking his own show. It's like an aging singer who's had a wonderfully successful career but is desperate to keep the spotlight on them so they resort to cheap gimmicks and over-the-top showboating. The only people dazzled and amazed are those who have probably been living in a cave since 1991.

Sadly, at the end of the day, despite all the gushing critical reviews and praise- The Return will largely not be remembered by anyone with the exception of Twin Peaks fans and hardcore Lynch lovers- the world has already moved on to their next show- Heck, I moved on before The Return even ended and stopped watching weekly. I caught up the night of the finale but even that was a challenge. Showtime boasted about The Return giving them their highest subscriptions ever, but I wonder how many of those people canceled their subcriptions in the 4 months since the show actually aired.

The Return's legacy will amount to "Oh yeah, they brought Twin Peaks back in the 2010s." and that's about it. A footnote, nothing more.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:18 pm

FWIW, Nevins said in a podcast that the show is very close to the original scripts and little was added or changed during filming (although he did admit some stuff was added). I still really wanna read that script.

And even then, it will be impossible to parse out what was Mark and what was David. But as I said in the "TR is mean-spirited" thread, I think there's a lot more Mark in the show than many seem to think, including many of the elements you guys dislike. The shambling Mr. C / mythology stuff feels VERY Mark. I like a lot of parts of TSHoTP, but I think it does show that Frost seems to have become more focused on individual moments/ideas than a cohesive whole. He and DKL seem to have been on the same page in this regard in TR.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Phillyfoggy » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:39 pm

claaa7 wrote:
nick1218 wrote:
Phillyfoggy wrote:TR reminds me a bit of two other late career disappointments: EYES WIDE SHUT and the STAR WARS prequels. The former was sloppily edited, visually flat, uninterested in human emotion, and self consciously arty, but got a pass from some people who added some false depth to it by comparing it to Kubrick's earlier better more human works.

And the Star Wars prequels reminds me of TR because it was made by a director visiting an earlier work who forgot the joys of fun vibrant characters and exciting narrative-- and instead got hung up in the self conscious and self-serious mythology he had created that some fans and critics had latched on to.

Meaning, I don't really give a darn about the black lodge or evil Coop or doppelgangers, I liked the town of twin peaks and it's characters.

That said I didn't hate TR. whenever I was ready to give up something would grab my attention. It's just disappointing when a great artist forgets what makes him/her great.


Totally disagree about EWS. I gave a big darn about the lodges and dopplegangers but wanted it inside the world of the town of twin peaks


wow.. yeah Eyes Wide Shut is a really good movie, on par with Kubrick's other classics like "A Clockwork Orange" and "Barry Lyndon" imo. how you get visually flat from that movie is beyond me. it could have benefited from another round in the editing room trimming some fat off a few scenes but that's minor.. we are all turned on by different things in film, music and litterature but this common attitude to explain differing opinions as syncophants seeing things that aren't there whenever something doesn't mesh with your experience is total BS. it comes off as "nah i am the supreme authority on what is good filmmaking so obviously these fools are forcing themeselves to see things that are not there", it's quite disgusting.


Hmm. It's a bit of a stretch to say my opinion of EYES WIDE SHUT is "disgusting", isn't it?

I noticed you didn't say my opinion of the STAR WARS prequels was disgusting. I guess I'm correct sometimes and disgusting other times.



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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Phillyfoggy » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:43 pm

Castledoque wrote:
referendum wrote:no he did not do it for the money
no he did not do it to troll fans
no he is not senile.
no he does not bear a grudge against people who liked his previous work or against it's success
yes the first 2/3 of TP 1/2 was his vision and yes parts of the original ideas for a continued TP series 3 or 4 were included in this series.
yes he genuinely made the best thing he could do at the time, this time round, with the best people, with the most love.


I mostly agree. I do think he did the best he could with the utmost love. However based on the last episode of the new season, I also feel (conjecture again) that over the years he has become increasingly obsessed with the idea of Laura Palmer (which I don't mind), while at the same time he became subconsciously frustrated with Dale Cooper (which I do mind). Now I have to admit that Cooper's eternal optimism and boy-scout attitude in the original series occasionally grates on me, however he was an integral part of the original show bringing in some much needed balance to all the underlying darkness, therefore absolutely necessary. Now I don't mind Cooper failing yet again, but why does his character have to be poisoned in the ending? (Kyle Maclachlan has confirmed officially that he was instructed to play the Cooper of the last episode as a heavier guy). I mentioned The Godfather 3 before and truly I feel that Lynch treats Cooper in the new season much the same way Copolla treated Michael Corleone in TG3. They both lost their love for the original characters that they themselves had breathed life into.


Interesting that two posters have mentioned Godfather 3, which was maybe the biggest disappointment i ever experienced watching a film. I think the key flaw of G3 wasn't Sofia Coppola it was the sense that the Michael Corleone character did not resemble Michael Corleone from the first two films whatsoever.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby TwistedFate_L4 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:34 pm

The issue with The Return is that the subplots are not subplots at all, they are set-ups that never got rolling or fleshed out enough to amount to anything, especially when new settings and characters kept being introduced every episode, it became pretty exhausting. Things weren't so much left unfinished as they weren't even begun in the first place.

This is probably a good reason as to why The Return does not taint the original series or FWWM for me because it was impossible for me to get invested in the characters considering they basically had no stories, just mindless sequences of actions that amounted to ultimately nothing.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:02 pm

Phillyfoggy wrote:
claaa7 wrote:
nick1218 wrote:
Totally disagree about EWS. I gave a big darn about the lodges and dopplegangers but wanted it inside the world of the town of twin peaks


wow.. yeah Eyes Wide Shut is a really good movie, on par with Kubrick's other classics like "A Clockwork Orange" and "Barry Lyndon" imo. how you get visually flat from that movie is beyond me. it could have benefited from another round in the editing room trimming some fat off a few scenes but that's minor.. we are all turned on by different things in film, music and litterature but this common attitude to explain differing opinions as syncophants seeing things that aren't there whenever something doesn't mesh with your experience is total BS. it comes off as "nah i am the supreme authority on what is good filmmaking so obviously these fools are forcing themeselves to see things that are not there", it's quite disgusting.


Hmm. It's a bit of a stretch to say my opinion of EYES WIDE SHUT is "disgusting", isn't it?

I noticed you didn't say my opinion of the STAR WARS prequels was disgusting. I guess I'm correct sometimes and disgusting other times.



i am not a Star Wars fan, i didn't say that your opinion of EWS shut was disgusting per se, but i dislike the very common tendency for people to get on high horses and claim their opinion is the right one while the stupid plebs that like said work are fawning syncophats without the intelligence to see that they are praising the emperor's new clothes. it's a cop out...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Eva Marie » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:25 pm

That 'budget' dispute really does seem like it was all about DL's salary. In a show like The Crown you can see the lavish budget in every frame. Where the hell did the cash go in TR? DL seems to have blown it on part 8 and fine Bordeaux for himself. Everything else looks like a student film shot on a camcorder.

I think that the only other person with any influence over the proceedings was Kyle, and he lost it all the minute he signed on. There is no way that DL could've pulled the wool over everyone's eyes without the promise of original recipe Cooper. I reckon that that is what "Starring Kyle MacLachlan" but no one else, and letting him read the whole script is all about. "I'm screwing over Dale, but HEY - you get your own version of Orphan Black!". Kyle largely bailed on FWWM and mentioned that he thought it damaged the world of Twin Peaks. I just don't see him going for completely destroying that world unless he was rewarded with the huge carrot of a lead role perfectly tailored to his talent for subtlety, a chance at awards and top billing.

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