Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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musicaddict
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby musicaddict » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:51 am

claaa7 wrote:
here we go again :/ David Lynch was more of a name and at the top of his game by 1992 when FWWM was mercilessly slammed by critics and the Cannes crowd. it's unfathomable to you and some others that people can actually like this so they must be wrapped in a dilusion. as i said before, that's a fucking cop out..

there were parts of The Return that had my heart sinking to my feet - everything about the Green Glove Fuck, some of the weak VFX, some of the plot strands left unresolved, the lack of investment in geographical TP stories, etc. but in contrast there's loads of scenes that i'm in love with. the entire 15 minutes set in the "Mauve Room" (the first part of ep. 3) gave me almost the exact same feeling of surrealist wonder as the dream sequence in episode 2 of the original run. the entirety of episode 8 was super well crafted from all aspects of filmmaking in my humble opinion. to me that entire hour is one of the finest things Lynch has ever directed, which is saying a lot since he is one of my favorites. almost all of episode 15 had me feeling the same way while almost all of episode 14 had me cursing the Television in disgust of what the fuck Lynch was doing with TP.

so you tell me, if i have both of these reactions, as does many others as evidenced by the discussions of the VolleyBOB battle - how does that mesh with your theory about the "Emperor's new clothes"? i'm sure there's a few people on here that are willing swallowing anything by their favorite director, but i hardly think it's the majority.

it should also be noted that MARK FROST is an EXECUTIVE PRODUCER and WRITER of the entire series. he didn't say bye bye after writing was done. and from all accounts of actor interviews i've heard it seems like the script was followed very closely.

also - what is up with the influx of new users with 10 posts who only registered to hate on the series.. if these are in fact the same few users using multiple accounts to flood the board with their hate then that's utterly pathetic.


The blame is equally shared between Lynch and Frost. The problem is that those glorifying this series are predominantly giving Lynch all the praise. Also in terms of direction and editing I think Lynch is mainly responsible as he was in charge of this. The slow, drawn out dull scenes are due to editing and how it was filmed. As has been pointed out if this script was originally only for 9 hours then it seems this show has been stretched and that is obvious from having watched this there were plenty of unnecessary scenes.
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AhmedKhalifa
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:57 am

From the Deadline article about the entire season of TPTR: "But to say that Lynch has done it again, and taken on peak TV and won is ridiculous. Twin Peaks season 3 didn’t break any rules or create any new standards. It just showed that episodic TV can be even more confusing than HBO’s Westworld. Furthermore, Lynch has practiced this absurdist schtick for his entire career, and if anything he’s overstayed his welcome in this Peyton Place-meets-noir sphere."

http://deadline.com/2017/09/twin-peaks- ... 202160498/
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Quarry70Viet
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Quarry70Viet » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:04 am

Absentees are always wrong sentence doesn't apply to Twin Peaks it seems.
Without them a lot of what was good is also missing in Fwwm and the return.
Eva Marie
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Eva Marie » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:24 am

As for the new users posting so called 'hate' - this site has only recently allowed new users to register. I'm guessing that bitterly disappointed TR viewers flooded in because this is the only place you can share any kind of reasonable critique of the show. Everywhere else you're shouted down by hardcore Lynch fans. I tried my hardest to have civilised discussions about my disappointment on Welcome to Twin Peaks but I got ground down by all the "go away, you uncouth hater who just wanted cherry pies" sniping. This has only made me angrier, like noted by another poster above. Critics and too many Lynch fans going 'la, la, la, we can't hear you and this is 100% amazing" makes the disappointed start boiling over with rage and sounding unreasonable.

As for FWWM: DL did not have the arthouse demigod standing in 1992 that he does now 25 years later, and the TP phenomenon was still fresh. He was still a bit of an odd outsider. These days he's part of the establishment.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Eva Marie » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:30 am

If he were to release FWWM and Dune now, I'd bet my life savings on the critical response to them being the same as with The Return - they would be considered the greatest thing since sliced bread. There'd be an ovation instead of booing at Cannes for FWWM.
RetconMetatron
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby RetconMetatron » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:32 am

By the way, was the S3 promo false advertising or what?

Image

Image

Image

Image

Focus on the old characters, owls, cherry pie, Cooper in his classic pose..

I never saw in the promo a retarded Cooper. Sure, of course they would channel the old show in the advertising, but given the fact that we got pretty much nothing at what the promo alludes to.. pretty disingenuous.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Iron_Dwarf » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:18 am

Somehow I found this scene from Annie Hall very fitting for the debate between lovers and haters of The Return:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJ8tKRlW3E
AnotherBlueRoseCase
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:20 am

TwistedFate_L4 wrote:
Sadly, at the end of the day, despite all the gushing critical reviews and praise- The Return will largely not be remembered by anyone with the exception of Twin Peaks fans and hardcore Lynch lovers- the world has already moved on to their next show- Heck, I moved on before The Return even ended and stopped watching weekly. I caught up the night of the finale but even that was a challenge. Showtime boasted about The Return giving them their highest subscriptions ever, but I wonder how many of those people canceled their subcriptions in the 4 months since the show actually aired.

The Return's legacy will amount to "Oh yeah, they brought Twin Peaks back in the 2010s." and that's about it. A footnote, nothing more.


Absolutely.

One simple fact argues strongly that many viewers and critics have their fanboy blinkers on. This is the relative shortage on sites like this of people who weren’t already Lynch admirers before the premiere – in other words, the show’s failure to make many enthusiastic converts, especially among the young.

Every such person I know who was tempted by the hype to watch The Return quickly saw it as an ugly, boring joke, switched it off and got on with their lives barely giving it a second thought. And there haven’t been many if any high-profile reviews enthusing about a first exposure to the world of Twin Peaks.

But The Return can only be understood and therefore appreciated by pre-existing TP fans, some have argued.

This is just mistaken. Firstly, who really understands The Return, even among its fans? Think about how headwrecking and complex and unconnected to the original run and FWWM most of this show was. How did prior knowledge of them help anyone understand more than a portion of it? Newbies were only marginally more confused than everyone else watching, so it’s unlikely they switched off because e.g. they didn’t know who or what that crackling tree/neurone topped with gum was an evolution of. No, they mainly switched off because it was ugly and nasty and they were bored silly.

Secondly, several TR defences have gone like this: stop looking for coherence, purpose, meaning, understanding. Lynch is a painter, first and foremost, who gives you an experience of light, colour, texture, composition, and the like. Well, if that’s the case where are all the TP converts enthusing about this new painterly experience? If this is what Lynch is really all about then a viewer’s ignorance about the previous incarnation of that teapot etc becomes even less relevant. Surely nobody would claim non-TP fans are incapable of appreciating such an experience.

And thirdly, there aren’t zero converts, are there? It wasn’t impossible for new TP viewers to like The Return. It’s just that hardly any of them did.

If The Return were the masterpiece some are claiming, sites like this should be swarming with new Twin Peaks fans enthusing about their revelation. That converts are so thin on the ground speaks volumes about its quality. Almost the only people enthusing about it were already confirmed hardcore Lynch fans, as you say, which suggests they’re doing so because of who made it and not its merits. In fact the extent of this may well be unprecedented. Seldom if ever has any new TV show, never mind any true masterpiece, had such a low % of fresh converts amongst its fans.

TLDR The relative shortage of new TP converts, neutrals uninfluenced by past fandom, suggests that TR enthusiasm is largely down to fanboy blinkers. A scientific test of such blinkers could hardly find a better control group than these newbies.

Straw Man and Ad Hominem Suggestions for the Lynchbots:

He just said The Return made no converts! He just said I prance around wearing a horse’s blinkers! He’s just jealous cos Lynch’s dick is harder!


And no, there is no equivalence in how older women are presented in this show and how older men are. This is the great gaping hole at the heart of TR discussions. The portrayal of older women was just icky, especially compared to the portrayals of older men like Gordon Cole (of course) and Dougie/Coop (Lynch’s surrogate), and is one more reason not to grant the showrunners the benefit of the doubt in other areas. It was unarguably meanspirited and petty, so much so that it’s natural to then see those same attributes elsewhere.

(He just said Lynch punches older women IRL!).

Still think it’s notable how many of the regular posters here were English, Irish or Scottish.

(He just said no English people like The Return! I do! He just admitted all of Wales loves it! He just said The Return is the cause of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome!).
Lynch on Trump, mid-2018: "He could go down as one of the greatest presidents in history."
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:24 am

Quarry70Viet wrote:If Frost was the culprit for Leland, Bob, lodges and other similar ideas, he's the main culprit for what killed what I enjoyed in Twin Peaks.
Fwwm was a disappointment to me as I didn't care, as metaphysic theory always bored me.
I prefer Allegory.

If you came away from Fire Walk With Me thinking it was anything but the most allegory-heavy part of Twin Peaks, repurposing all of the series' fairly straightforward supernatural phenomenon as extensions of Laura's surreal ordeal, I don't know what to tell you except to watch it again independently of the series.

It took all of the season 2's X-Files-esque (though fun) shenanigans and made them emotional allegory.

Re: Above: I agree with some of the specific critiques of the show while liking (even loving) it as a whole, but presenting your take with hypothetical responses intended to dismiss the experience of people who were genuinely moved by the show is a shitty way to go about it. There's an aggressively mean-spirited and personally antagonistic attitude I see coming from people who didn't enjoy the show that I don't see from those who did.
Last edited by Cipher on Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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powerleftist
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby powerleftist » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:25 am

@RetconMetatron: you are absolutely right, again. Those promotional photos and videos were a total scam (see my avatar), making us think that the old Twin Peaks was back. If only we had known that, for instance, Audrey was not even going to meet any of the old characters. We would have been confused and sad.

Showtime knew this.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:26 am

N. Needleman wrote:I think it would make a few people much more comfortable to assume Mark Frost's work was hijacked by Lynch, because that validates a view of the show that venerates the plot architecture vs. Lynch, y'know, fucking it up or something, as though he was some glorified hired gun and the writers all did the heavy lifting, that it was more their show than his.


The idea that Lynch hijacked Frost's work doesn't make much sense to me. They wrote the return together from the beginning. A creative partnership like that is about compromise. If the wackier ideas came from Lynch, Frost probably got behind them in the name of collaboration. Lynch wouldn't have had to do things behind Frost's back, or whatever.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:37 am

I'm assuming the "Lynch discarded the script" theory stems from Episode 29, where that did indeed happen. There's no evidence that that happened here, though, and the key difference is that Lynch is credited as 50% cowriter on the entire series, whereas on Episode 29 he was returning after being largely an absentee parent for 14 episodes and reading someone else's script, which he felt was completely wrong. If you compare the script of any Lynch movie (cowritten or not) to the finished product, they're never too far off. And Nevins has said there wasn't much deviation from the script. People are entitled to vent and to speculate about what went wrong, but I really think this "Lynch left Frost out in the cold" talk is totally groundless and does a disservice to both men.
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musicaddict
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby musicaddict » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:57 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I'm assuming the "Lynch discarded the script" theory stems from Episode 29, where that did indeed happen. There's no evidence that that happened here, though, and the key difference is that Lynch is credited as 50% cowriter on the entire series, whereas on Episode 29 he was returning after being largely an absentee parent for 14 episodes and reading someone else's script, which he felt was completely wrong. If you compare the script of any Lynch movie (cowritten or not) to the finished product, they're never too far off. And Nevins has said there wasn't much deviation from the script. People are entitled to vent and to speculate about what went wrong, but I really think this "Lynch left Frost out in the cold" talk is totally groundless and does a disservice to both men.

But isn't the speculation about Lynch ditching some of the script based upon the comment made by Sabrina Sutherland that whilst shooting Lynch was adding and re-writing? I am not saying that it was a significant contribution but she did put out there this idea that Lynch was doing his own thing. Without seeing the original script neither side is going to know exactly what was changed/added etc.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:59 am

Cipher wrote:
Quarry70Viet wrote:If Frost was the culprit for Leland, Bob, lodges and other similar ideas, he's the main culprit for what killed what I enjoyed in Twin Peaks.
Fwwm was a disappointment to me as I didn't care, as metaphysic theory always bored me.
I prefer Allegory.

If you came away from Fire Walk With Me thinking it was anything but the most allegory-heavy part of Twin Peaks, repurposing all of the series' fairly straightforward supernatural phenomenon as extensions of Laura's surreal ordeal, I don't know what to tell you except to watch it again independently of the series.

It took all of the season 2's X-Files-esque (though fun) shenanigans and made them emotional allegory.

Re: Above: I agree with some of the specific critiques of the show while liking (even loving) it as a whole, but presenting your take with hypothetical responses intended to dismiss the experience of people who were genuinely moved by the show is a shitty way to go about it. There's an aggressively mean-spirited and personally antagonistic attitude I see coming from people who didn't enjoy the show that I don't see from those who did.


I agree with part of your post but part is nonsense. I loved FWWM too for what it's worth. But to say that those who enjoyed the show are behaving better than those those who didn't is totally wrong. Look at this thread for God's sakes. It was created for one specific purpose. Lovers of the show have 99.9% of the internet (or 99.999% or whatever) to talk about how amazing it is. But we couldn't even have one thread to ourselves right? If that's not mean spirited I don't know what is.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby musicaddict » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:02 am

Kyle was correct when he tweeted "poo would flow".

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