Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mine » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:09 am

claaa7 wrote:
Cipher wrote:
mlsstwrt wrote:I agree with part of your post but part is nonsense. I loved FWWM too for what it's worth. But to say that those who enjoyed the show are behaving better than those those who didn't is totally wrong. Look at this thread for God's sakes. It was created for one specific purpose. Lovers of the show have 99.9% of the internet (or 99.999% or whatever) to talk about how amazing it is. But we couldn't even have one thread to ourselves right? If that's not mean spirited I don't know what is.

I'd never tell anyone they can't dislike the show -- at all. But I haven't seen a personal vein to posts expressing appreciation for it in the way I have on every one of the last few pages here, where the critical background of those who like it has repeatedly come under attack. There's this weird assumption that anyone who liked it or was moved by it was posturing, or doesn't have a background in fiction or art, and both are borderline offensive and new to this topic since the finale.

If The Return didn't speak to you, or you if you have critical reservations, that's fine. No need to scrutinize the motivations of those who had a different reaction.


i agree.. i've thrown some heavy criticism in a few of the episodes thread and never once have i been shut down for it. people are very welcome to challenge any reservations or praise i have but this idea that those who have been critical of the show elsewhere than this thread are being hounded and chased with pitchforks doesn't seem consistant with reality. i can't speak for Reddit, WTT and Facebook but on here i feel for the most part the discussion has been civilized and i hope we can keep that up. Dugpa is by far one of the most civilized and polite internet forums i have ever been a part of, let's keep it that way

This is true, which is what makes some other comment sections seem as if they were populated mainly by bots paid to create the impression that The Return is beyond flawless.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LurkerAtTheThreshold » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:22 am

As Phillip Jeffries would say;

'It's getting SLIPPERY in here'
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:40 am

I don't really personally find the 'was it Lynch, or was it Frost' discussion fruitful. We'll probably never know. What really matters is whether the show was any good or not, and it wasn't [standard disclaimer: IMO].

I work in TV and Film, as a writer and sometime script editor. Almost anyone who works in this world knows that the idea of one creative genius being solely responsible for everything is ridiculous. Film and TV are by necessity collaborative media. If you want to purvey a pure, unalloyed artistic vision, take up poetry, self-publish a novel, paint a picture.

Even the inventors of the Auteur Theory - Godard, Truffaut et al - have long since admitted that they don't believe this theory themselves, they just invented it to grab attention.

If TPTR has done one thing, it is to throw into stark relief the contributions of many other creative minds, in addition to Lynch & Frost, that made original Twin Peaks what it was. Sure, it didn't always work - TV and film have a strange alchemy and sometimes everything comes together perfectly, often it doesn't - but when the stars aligned we saw some perfect collaborations between writers, directors, producers, actors and the many, many others a good showrunner or director brings together to create a show.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:03 am

claaa7 wrote:
Cipher wrote:
mlsstwrt wrote:I agree with part of your post but part is nonsense. I loved FWWM too for what it's worth. But to say that those who enjoyed the show are behaving better than those those who didn't is totally wrong. Look at this thread for God's sakes. It was created for one specific purpose. Lovers of the show have 99.9% of the internet (or 99.999% or whatever) to talk about how amazing it is. But we couldn't even have one thread to ourselves right? If that's not mean spirited I don't know what is.

I'd never tell anyone they can't dislike the show -- at all. But I haven't seen a personal vein to posts expressing appreciation for it in the way I have on every one of the last few pages here, where the critical background of those who like it has repeatedly come under attack. There's this weird assumption that anyone who liked it or was moved by it was posturing, or doesn't have a background in fiction or art, and both are borderline offensive and new to this topic since the finale.

If The Return didn't speak to you, or you if you have critical reservations, that's fine. No need to scrutinize the motivations of those who had a different reaction.


i agree.. i've thrown some heavy criticism in a few of the episodes thread and never once have i been shut down for it. people are very welcome to challenge any reservations or praise i have but this idea that those who have been critical of the show elsewhere than this thread are being hounded and chased with pitchforks doesn't seem consistant with reality. i can't speak for Reddit, WTT and Facebook but on here i feel for the most part the discussion has been civilized and i hope we can keep that up. Dugpa is by far one of the most civilized and polite internet forums i have ever been a part of, let's keep it that way


I disagree. I was in the main threads here in the early days of the run and some things said to me were awful enough to drive me to tears and to temporarily leave the board - it was bullying. Such horrible responses if I dared to criticise or express my disappointment. I was so grateful when mlsstwrt started this thread which is why I was the first poster on here after him. It was good to have a thread where you could express yourself if you weren't so enamoured with the new series as others were. A thread where you didn't have to get shot down in flames for expressing your opinion and disappointment in the show. So I decided to stick to this thread rather than, 'Clogging up the boards' with posts expressing disappointment or criticism, as posts from anyone who was disappointed were once described.

Separately to the above, an interesting FAQ/Summarisation of plot thingy from Empire magazine on the show here: http://www.empireonline.com/movies/feat ... -answered/ They seem rather perplexed by it all :wink:
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:53 am

Venus wrote:Separately to the above, an interesting FAQ/Summarisation of plot thingy from Empire magazine on the show here: http://www.empireonline.com/movies/feat ... -answered/ They seem rather perplexed by it all :wink:


'Twin Peaks- The Return - All Your Questions Answered' - you have to admire their ambition :lol:
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:54 am

I've never whipped back and forth on my opinion on any filmed entertainment so dramatically as with this show. Depending on what way I look at it, it could be great or awful. Before those final two episodes, particularly the execrable Part 17, I was leaning towards going up to the "mostly like" category. I even liked Parts 15 and 16 more on rewatch. However, those last two really pissed me off, and not in a good way, if you know what I mean. I need to rewatch them to get a good appraisal, but I doubt if I would like them any more.

Picture a man putting a box on a table out of your reach. You ask "What's in the box?" He says, "I'm not going to tell you." That's mystery.

Then picture a man putting a box on a table out of your reach. You ask "What's in the box?" He says, "What box?" That's insulting.

This show vacillated between those two ideas, sticking with the latter.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Snailhead » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:34 am

IcedOver wrote:I've never whipped back and forth on my opinion on any filmed entertainment so dramatically as with this show. Depending on what way I look at it, it could be great or awful. Before those final two episodes, particularly the execrable Part 17, I was leaning towards going up to the "mostly like" category. I even liked Parts 15 and 16 more on rewatch. However, those last two really pissed me off, and not in a good way, if you know what I mean. I need to rewatch them to get a good appraisal, but I doubt if I would like them any more.

Picture a man putting a box on a table out of your reach. You ask "What's in the box?" He says, "I'm not going to tell you." That's mystery.

Then picture a man putting a box on a table out of your reach. You ask "What's in the box?" He says, "What box?" That's insulting.

This show vacillated between those two ideas, sticking with the latter.


That's kind of how I feel. I think I'm going for a rewatch of 17 & 18 tonight. I'm very curious to see how I'll feel about them. I feel like Audrey Horne at the end of Part 16 was my reaction to the whole thing when 18 ended.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:16 am

Rialto wrote:
claaa7 wrote:
Cipher wrote:I'd never tell anyone they can't dislike the show -- at all. But I haven't seen a personal vein to posts expressing appreciation for it in the way I have on every one of the last few pages here, where the critical background of those who like it has repeatedly come under attack. There's this weird assumption that anyone who liked it or was moved by it was posturing, or doesn't have a background in fiction or art, and both are borderline offensive and new to this topic since the finale.

If The Return didn't speak to you, or you if you have critical reservations, that's fine. No need to scrutinize the motivations of those who had a different reaction.


i agree.. i've thrown some heavy criticism in a few of the episodes thread and never once have i been shut down for it. people are very welcome to challenge any reservations or praise i have but this idea that those who have been critical of the show elsewhere than this thread are being hounded and chased with pitchforks doesn't seem consistant with reality. i can't speak for Reddit, WTT and Facebook but on here i feel for the most part the discussion has been civilized and i hope we can keep that up. Dugpa is by far one of the most civilized and polite internet forums i have ever been a part of, let's keep it that way


Well, a lot of the recent joiners here did mention they were refugees from Reddit, and were coming here for a civilised discussion!


Definitely agree that we should keep things civilised.

I don't want to see personal attacks on people and if I've been guilty of that I'm not proud of it. On the other hand you have to understand that this thread may be open to all but it was created for a specific group and I think that people posting here have to bear that in mind. I have really only heard second hand about the online lynching of the 'anti' group on Reddit and other forums. I haven't visited any of them. But it would be strange if people are making that stuff up. There are a couple of posters at least on here I have come to trust (Venus being one) who say they have been verbally attacked for expressing dissent. And even on here when I've looked in on other threads I have seen negative comments about this thread. Not sure why, I mean if I loved something the last thing I'd want to do is browse, much less post in, threads saying that the thing I loved sucks. I'd much rather celebrate with fellow fans.

I do find the analysis put into Lynch's work fairly hilarious, particularly in the case of TPTR. I'm not sure that such lazy, sloppy film-making deserves it. For me Lynch's genius was always that he would have these instinctive ideas that would somehow connect with us on a very visceral level. They may not have been well thought out but they WORKED. I mean, as everyone here will know, the whole Bob thing came from seeing Frank Silva's reflection. On the one hand that kind of improvisation is brilliant but on the other, it's a bit fucking random isn't it? You change the entire direction of your Series WHILE FILMING. But it worked out amazingly and that takes a crazy level of talent or luck I guess. But now his ideas don't work, they're almost all woeful.
Last edited by mlsstwrt on Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mallard » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:23 am

mlsstwrt wrote:
Rialto wrote:
claaa7 wrote:
i agree.. i've thrown some heavy criticism in a few of the episodes thread and never once have i been shut down for it. people are very welcome to challenge any reservations or praise i have but this idea that those who have been critical of the show elsewhere than this thread are being hounded and chased with pitchforks doesn't seem consistant with reality. i can't speak for Reddit, WTT and Facebook but on here i feel for the most part the discussion has been civilized and i hope we can keep that up. Dugpa is by far one of the most civilized and polite internet forums i have ever been a part of, let's keep it that way


Well, a lot of the recent joiners here did mention they were refugees from Reddit, and were coming here for a civilised discussion!


Definitely agree that we should keep things civilised.

I don't want to see personal attacks on people and if I've been guilty of that I'm not proud of it. On the other hand you have to understand that this thread may be open to all but it was created for a specific group and I think that people posting here have to bear that in mind. I have really only heard second hand about the online lynching of the 'anti' group on Reddit and other forums. I haven't visited any of them. But it would be strange if people are making that stuff up. There are a couple of posters at least on here I have come to trust (Venus being one) who say they have been verbally attacked for expressing dissent. And even on here when I've looked in on other threads I have seen negative comments about this thread. Not sure why, I mean if I loved something the last thing I'd want to do is browse, much less post in, threads saying that the thing I loved sucks. I'd much rather celebrate with fellow fans.


Everyone is too confused to celebrate.

Post-16 Audrey face, indeed.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:25 am

Mallard wrote:
mlsstwrt wrote:
Rialto wrote:
Well, a lot of the recent joiners here did mention they were refugees from Reddit, and were coming here for a civilised discussion!


Definitely agree that we should keep things civilised.

I don't want to see personal attacks on people and if I've been guilty of that I'm not proud of it. On the other hand you have to understand that this thread may be open to all but it was created for a specific group and I think that people posting here have to bear that in mind. I have really only heard second hand about the online lynching of the 'anti' group on Reddit and other forums. I haven't visited any of them. But it would be strange if people are making that stuff up. There are a couple of posters at least on here I have come to trust (Venus being one) who say they have been verbally attacked for expressing dissent. And even on here when I've looked in on other threads I have seen negative comments about this thread. Not sure why, I mean if I loved something the last thing I'd want to do is browse, much less post in, threads saying that the thing I loved sucks. I'd much rather celebrate with fellow fans.


Everyone is too confused to celebrate.

Post-16 Audrey face, indeed.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Spacevessel » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:22 pm

Imagine any other modern director make a 3rd TP season now, possibly with all new cast of actors. Could it really be any more embarrassing?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:44 pm

Venus wrote:I disagree. I was in the main threads here in the early days of the run and some things said to me were awful enough to drive me to tears and to temporarily leave the board - it was bullying. Such horrible responses if I dared to criticise or express my disappointment. I was so grateful when mlsstwrt started this thread which is why I was the first poster on here after him. It was good to have a thread where you could express yourself if you weren't so enamoured with the new series as others were. A thread where you didn't have to get shot down in flames for expressing your opinion and disappointment in the show. So I decided to stick to this thread rather than, 'Clogging up the boards' with posts expressing disappointment or criticism, as posts from anyone who was disappointed were once described.

Not just that, Venus; this is the best thread on the site with all the coolest contributors.

More than just a 'discussion' or 'safe space' thread, in approaching TPTR from a more antagonistic viewpoint I rather suspect most 'disappointed' people have a better understanding of the show than the sycophants and post-modern zombies on other threads who resort to bullying!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:12 pm

claaa7 wrote:
musicaddict wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I'm assuming the "Lynch discarded the script" theory stems from Episode 29, where that did indeed happen. There's no evidence that that happened here, though, and the key difference is that Lynch is credited as 50% cowriter on the entire series, whereas on Episode 29 he was returning after being largely an absentee parent for 14 episodes and reading someone else's script, which he felt was completely wrong. If you compare the script of any Lynch movie (cowritten or not) to the finished product, they're never too far off. And Nevins has said there wasn't much deviation from the script. People are entitled to vent and to speculate about what went wrong, but I really think this "Lynch left Frost out in the cold" talk is totally groundless and does a disservice to both men.

But isn't the speculation about Lynch ditching some of the script based upon the comment made by Sabrina Sutherland that whilst shooting Lynch was adding and re-writing? I am not saying that it was a significant contribution but she did put out there this idea that Lynch was doing his own thing. Without seeing the original script neither side is going to know exactly what was changed/added etc.


there was some rewrites during shooting, but it was never said that these were solo rewrites and additions by Lynch.. like i previously pointed out, Frost is an executive producer for this series. there is nothing to indicate that he handed in the script to the production company and was ditched by Lynch.


I beg to differ. At comicon Sutherland clearly stated that after L&F finished the 9 hour script, Lynch went to Showtime, got the deal, then decided to continue writing WITHOUT Frost's involvement at all, as Frost was busy writing TSHOTP. She stated that Lynch added about another 20% to 30% on his own.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:42 pm

AhmedKhalifa wrote:
claaa7 wrote:
musicaddict wrote:But isn't the speculation about Lynch ditching some of the script based upon the comment made by Sabrina Sutherland that whilst shooting Lynch was adding and re-writing? I am not saying that it was a significant contribution but she did put out there this idea that Lynch was doing his own thing. Without seeing the original script neither side is going to know exactly what was changed/added etc.


there was some rewrites during shooting, but it was never said that these were solo rewrites and additions by Lynch.. like i previously pointed out, Frost is an executive producer for this series. there is nothing to indicate that he handed in the script to the production company and was ditched by Lynch.


I beg to differ. At comicon Sutherland clearly stated that after L&F finished the 9 hour script, Lynch went to Showtime, got the deal, then decided to continue writing WITHOUT Frost's involvement at all, as Frost was busy writing TSHOTP. She stated that Lynch added about another 20% to 30% on his own.


wow i didn't hear that before.. i'm going to check out that interview, thx for the info. that don't sit right with me if that's the case. however, i came to think about the most recent thing Frost has been writing outside of Twin Peaks which is the Young Adult fantasy novel The Palladin Prophecies. i read the first book in that series and it didn't hit me until today that the Freddie character is almost exactly like something pulled out of that book.

with its extreme length and (as Reindeer) called it "kitchen sink" style, its like we are getting both the worst and best of both Lynch and Frost in this series. the Freddie thing is far and away the worst thing in the entire series for me, and the weakest thing either of them had a hand in creating.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby powerleftist » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:45 pm

Don't ever forget that Mark Frost co-wrote those goddamn awful Fantastic Four films.

Also, don't you dare to forget that Lynch has never read TSHOTP.

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