Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Steve Liam
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Steve Liam » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:02 pm

Saela wrote:The most tangible thing Mr. C wanted was to get rid of Cooper, and in Part 2 he showed Darya that card with Judy on it and says: "This is what I want". Later we learn that Judy is an extreme negative force, so I think it's safe to say Evil Coop's big goal was to unleash this negative force onto Twin Peaks and the world, which would obviously be an atomic bomb-level catastrophy. I admit that his motivations could have been more defined, but I was so focused on finding out when and how Cooper would wake up, that I didn't mind Coopelganger's lack of a clearly stated goal.

Also, I think the main reason why so much time was spent with the Mitchum Brothers and Janey-E (and to a lesser extent the woman at the Casino and others) was to show how much joy and positivity DougieCoop brought to the world, in stark contrast to everything the doppelganger did. (Not to mention the fact that the Mitchum's got the good Dale back to Twin Peaks just in time :wink: )

We don't know that the image on the playing card is an image of Judy. You're projecting that meaning onto it. There's actually a reason to think that it isn't Judy - when Evil Cooper meets with Jeffries, Evil Cooper asks Jeffries, multiple times, "Who is Judy?" So, Evil Cooper doesn't seem to know the first thing about Judy.

Even if it is an image of Judy, we have no idea what Judy is capable of, nor do we have any idea what Evil Cooper wants from her. "It would obviously be an atomic bomb level catastrophe." Again, you're projecting that meaning onto it. We don't know anything about it.

Our antagonist needs a clear motivation. We need to know that he's trying to accomplish something that would have negative consequences if he succeeds. We need an opposing set of characters who are aware of what the antagonist is trying to accomplish, so that they feel an urgency to stop him - this creates conflict - it creates tension - it creates suspense - it creates drama. It gives the audience something to become emotionally invested in. What did we get in The Return? Characters wandered around aimlessly, relaxed at the hotel, stumbled around in a stupor - all doing nothing of consequence. There was no urgency or drama to any of it. Yes, Evil Cooper apparently wanted to kill the real Cooper. But the series didn't give us much reason to care. Cooper was in Dougie mode, brain dead, useless, doing nothing of consequence. And, Evil Cooper didn't seem to pose a larger threat. He wandered around, got into scuffles with low level criminals, and that's about it. So, who cares? There was nothing at stake! Evil Cooper didn't seem like he was too preoccupied with killing off the real Cooper. He took a rather hands off approach to it - he just seemed indifferent about it, overall - almost like it was an afterthought. Again, there was no urgency or drama to any of it.

There was no worthwhile contrast between Dougie and Evil Cooper.

Dougie is good. Evil Cooper is bad. And? So what?

Evil Cooper didn't do much of anything. He certainly never demonstrated that he was the personification of evil, or that he was responsible for a greater suffering in the world - Richard Horne was more evil than he was!

We didn't need the Mitchum brothers to get Cooper back to Twin Peaks. The writers could've cooked up a million alternate scenarios. Maybe Cooper could've used his FBI connections to arrange a private flight for himself. And, we didn't need Bushnell Mullins to read a note to Gordon Cole. The note could've been left with a nurse, for example. The insurance fraud storyline was a waste of time - it was of no consequence to the rest of the series, and the characters involved served no purpose after it was over.
Last edited by Steve Liam on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
AnotherBlueRoseCase
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:03 pm

Rialto wrote:@AnotherBlueRoseCase - I can't decide if you're a genius, or if TPTR has broken you :lol:


Ah, I was broken long before this show, Rialto. The Return was really just a mercy killing.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:35 pm

Rialto wrote:For those who are truly, profoundly disappointed, I highly recommend the last edition of The Twin Peaks Podcast. Not for those who loved it with reservations, but personally I found it hilarious: https://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-twin-peaks-podcast/id432749455?mt=2&i=1000392072773

It's probably the most enjoyment I've derived from the whole season...


Thanks for the recommendation. I'll make a note to listen to this when I get some down time. Cheers for the heads up! :)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby nick1218 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:52 pm

future's past wrote:I love you guys, but if you really think that Frost and Lynch are writing to specifically piss you guys off, then I reckon you're way off. They are not. Wonderment is cool and it's not all about the payoff.


I think Lynch is a little bit. When we have the first scene with Audrey and she yells "you mean youre not going to tell me" and it finally cuts away from that incredibly long meaningless scene, well thats a dead giveaway that he knows what he is doing
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby nick1218 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:55 pm

Steve Liam wrote:
Saela wrote:The most tangible thing Mr. C wanted was to get rid of Cooper, and in Part 2 he showed Darya that card with Judy on it and says: "This is what I want". Later we learn that Judy is an extreme negative force, so I think it's safe to say Evil Coop's big goal was to unleash this negative force onto Twin Peaks and the world, which would obviously be an atomic bomb-level catastrophy. I admit that his motivations could have been more defined, but I was so focused on finding out when and how Cooper would wake up, that I didn't mind Coopelganger's lack of a clearly stated goal.

Also, I think the main reason why so much time was spent with the Mitchum Brothers and Janey-E (and to a lesser extent the woman at the Casino and others) was to show how much joy and positivity DougieCoop brought to the world, in stark contrast to everything the doppelganger did. (Not to mention the fact that the Mitchum's got the good Dale back to Twin Peaks just in time :wink: )

We don't know that the image on the playing card is an image of Judy. You're projecting that meaning onto it. There's actually a reason to think that it isn't Judy - when Evil Cooper meets with Jeffries, Evil Cooper asks Jeffries, multiple times, "Who is Judy?" So, Evil Cooper doesn't seem to know the first thing about Judy.

Even if it is an image of Judy, we have no idea what Judy is capable of, nor do we have any idea what Evil Cooper wants from her. "It would obviously be an atomic bomb level catastrophe." Again, you're projecting that meaning onto it. We don't know anything about it.

Our antagonist needs a clear motivation. We need to know that he's trying to accomplish something that would have negative consequences if he succeeds. We need an opposing set of characters who are aware of what the antagonist is trying to accomplish, so that they feel an urgency to stop him - this creates conflict - it creates tension - it creates suspense - it creates drama. It gives the audience something to become emotionally invested in. What did we get in The Return? Characters wandered around aimlessly, relaxed at the hotel, stumbled around in a stupor - all doing nothing of consequence. There was no urgency or drama to any of it. Yes, Evil Cooper apparently wanted to kill the real Cooper. But the series didn't give us much reason to care. Cooper was in Dougie mode, brain dead, useless, doing nothing of consequence. And, Evil Cooper didn't seem to pose a larger threat. He wandered around, got into scuffles with low level criminals, and that's about it. So, who cares? There was nothing at stake! Evil Cooper didn't seem like he was too preoccupied with killing off the real Cooper. He took a rather hands off approach to it - he just seemed indifferent about it, overall - almost like it was an afterthought. Again, there was no urgency or drama to any of it.

There was no worthwhile contrast between Dougie and Evil Cooper.

Dougie is good. Evil Cooper is bad. And? So what?

Evil Cooper didn't do much of anything. He certainly never demonstrated that he was the personification of evil, or that he was responsible for a greater suffering in the world - Richard Horne was more evil than he was!

We didn't need the Mitchum brothers to get Cooper back to Twin Peaks. The writers could've cooked up a million alternate scenarios. Maybe Cooper could've used his FBI connections to arrange a private flight for himself. And, we didn't need Bushnell Mullins to read a note to Gordon Cole. The note could've been left with a nurse, for example. The insurance fraud storyline was a waste of time - it was of no consequence to the rest of the series, and the characters involved served no purpose after it was over.


well said. I watched Lynch an Artists Life before I watched the last 4 eps. He really is a fairly bad painter and sculptor as well. I am really reassessing his career now feeling I was duped. How does a man that makes such a great film as Blue Velvet (which he wrote alone) get so bad as he ages and gets more and more indulgent. Well heck I just answered my own question. he is very lucky to have his career. That was something I was thinking when I watched that documentary, it came down to one person's very unlikely decision to give him a grant for AFI. he seemed to be a token non filmmaker who was the last person to get chosen for that group of grants.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Snailhead » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:18 pm

Hmm, "lucky to have his career" ? Gimme a break. Yeah, The Return kinda sucks but it doesn't take away from the enormous talent exhibited throughout his career. I think his paintings are hauntingly beautiful. There are many artists whose work declines in their later years, and with The Return I feel Lynch belongs to that category. Why does that have to devalue all of his previous accomplishments?
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nick1218
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby nick1218 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:23 pm

Snailhead wrote:Hmm, "lucky to have his career" ? Gimme a break. Yeah, The Return kinda sucks but it doesn't take away from the enormous talent exhibited throughout his career. I think his paintings are hauntingly beautiful. There are many artists whose work declines in their later years, and with The Return I feel Lynch belongs to that category. Why does that have to devalue all of his previous accomplishments?


Im not convinced of what Im saying, just a couple of notions that occurred to me as maybe's. True what you say many decline and keep a positive look on the past. Ok you convinced me
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Endangered_Wulf » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:27 pm

Maybe the ultimate story being told by the Lynch/Frost team is a story more bizarre than we think...


"DOUGLAS MILFORD
9:50 a.m. March 15 1989"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRz3deg1crY
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Rialto
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:38 pm

Venus wrote:
Rialto wrote:For those who are truly, profoundly disappointed, I highly recommend the last edition of The Twin Peaks Podcast. Not for those who loved it with reservations, but personally I found it hilarious: https://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-twin-peaks-podcast/id432749455?mt=2&i=1000392072773

It's probably the most enjoyment I've derived from the whole season...


Thanks for the recommendation. I'll make a note to listen to this when I get some down time. Cheers for the heads up! :)


Like hanging out with a bunch of buddies who share your pain - which I needed, as no-one I know has watched the new season!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby powerleftist » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:38 am

Steve Liam wrote:We don't know that the image on the playing card is an image of Judy. You're projecting that meaning onto it. There's actually a reason to think that it isn't Judy - when Evil Cooper meets with Jeffries, Evil Cooper asks Jeffries, multiple times, "Who is Judy?" So, Evil Cooper doesn't seem to know the first thing about Judy.

Even if it is an image of Judy, we have no idea what Judy is capable of, nor do we have any idea what Evil Cooper wants from her. "It would obviously be an atomic bomb level catastrophe." Again, you're projecting that meaning onto it. We don't know anything about it.

People are just assuming that Experiment = Judy. They are also assuming that Experiment = Symbol from the card.

Both of these things are just assumptions based on sheer speculation. The irony is that people that are pretending to be OK with not getting answers, are also jumping to manufacture them.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:10 am

nick1218 wrote:
Steve Liam wrote:
Saela wrote:The most tangible thing Mr. C wanted was to get rid of Cooper, and in Part 2 he showed Darya that card with Judy on it and says: "This is what I want". Later we learn that Judy is an extreme negative force, so I think it's safe to say Evil Coop's big goal was to unleash this negative force onto Twin Peaks and the world, which would obviously be an atomic bomb-level catastrophy. I admit that his motivations could have been more defined, but I was so focused on finding out when and how Cooper would wake up, that I didn't mind Coopelganger's lack of a clearly stated goal.

Also, I think the main reason why so much time was spent with the Mitchum Brothers and Janey-E (and to a lesser extent the woman at the Casino and others) was to show how much joy and positivity DougieCoop brought to the world, in stark contrast to everything the doppelganger did. (Not to mention the fact that the Mitchum's got the good Dale back to Twin Peaks just in time :wink: )

We don't know that the image on the playing card is an image of Judy. You're projecting that meaning onto it. There's actually a reason to think that it isn't Judy - when Evil Cooper meets with Jeffries, Evil Cooper asks Jeffries, multiple times, "Who is Judy?" So, Evil Cooper doesn't seem to know the first thing about Judy.

Even if it is an image of Judy, we have no idea what Judy is capable of, nor do we have any idea what Evil Cooper wants from her. "It would obviously be an atomic bomb level catastrophe." Again, you're projecting that meaning onto it. We don't know anything about it.

Our antagonist needs a clear motivation. We need to know that he's trying to accomplish something that would have negative consequences if he succeeds. We need an opposing set of characters who are aware of what the antagonist is trying to accomplish, so that they feel an urgency to stop him - this creates conflict - it creates tension - it creates suspense - it creates drama. It gives the audience something to become emotionally invested in. What did we get in The Return? Characters wandered around aimlessly, relaxed at the hotel, stumbled around in a stupor - all doing nothing of consequence. There was no urgency or drama to any of it. Yes, Evil Cooper apparently wanted to kill the real Cooper. But the series didn't give us much reason to care. Cooper was in Dougie mode, brain dead, useless, doing nothing of consequence. And, Evil Cooper didn't seem to pose a larger threat. He wandered around, got into scuffles with low level criminals, and that's about it. So, who cares? There was nothing at stake! Evil Cooper didn't seem like he was too preoccupied with killing off the real Cooper. He took a rather hands off approach to it - he just seemed indifferent about it, overall - almost like it was an afterthought. Again, there was no urgency or drama to any of it.

There was no worthwhile contrast between Dougie and Evil Cooper.

Dougie is good. Evil Cooper is bad. And? So what?

Evil Cooper didn't do much of anything. He certainly never demonstrated that he was the personification of evil, or that he was responsible for a greater suffering in the world - Richard Horne was more evil than he was!

We didn't need the Mitchum brothers to get Cooper back to Twin Peaks. The writers could've cooked up a million alternate scenarios. Maybe Cooper could've used his FBI connections to arrange a private flight for himself. And, we didn't need Bushnell Mullins to read a note to Gordon Cole. The note could've been left with a nurse, for example. The insurance fraud storyline was a waste of time - it was of no consequence to the rest of the series, and the characters involved served no purpose after it was over.


well said. I watched Lynch an Artists Life before I watched the last 4 eps. He really is a fairly bad painter and sculptor as well. I am really reassessing his career now feeling I was duped. How does a man that makes such a great film as Blue Velvet (which he wrote alone) get so bad as he ages and gets more and more indulgent. Well heck I just answered my own question. he is very lucky to have his career. That was something I was thinking when I watched that documentary, it came down to one person's very unlikely decision to give him a grant for AFI. he seemed to be a token non filmmaker who was the last person to get chosen for that group of grants.


I don't think Lynch is a bad artist who's been conning people and critics into thinking he's a master. I think the problem with Lynch is that he, like a lot of his collaborators have said, basically hasn't had a boss since BLUE VELVET, remaining virtually unchallenged in any way, except by budgetary constraints, and doing whatever he wants. That's a situation that's rarely conducive of innovation. He is also, by his own admission, not a movie buff and rarely watches movies and tv, living in a state of artistic isolation. And since all art is a reaction to other art, that's a formula for staleness and repetition. It's obvious that Lynch hasn't had a new idea or motif since FWWM, being trapped in a mobius strip of repeating images and sounds that are verging on self-parody.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:08 am

powerleftist wrote:People are just assuming that Experiment = Judy. They are also assuming that Experiment = Symbol from the card.

Both of these things are just assumptions based on sheer speculation. The irony is that people that are pretending to be OK with not getting answers, are also jumping to manufacture them.


And? That doesn't seem like a contradictory impulse to me. The joy of not getting answers is that we can theorize for years to come. Honestly, my complaint about Judy is the opposite of yours: unlike you, I felt that the cringey exposition about Judy being an "ancient evil" SO clearly linked the name to the Experiment entity that it made it/her a straightforward demon and killed a lot of the room for imagination.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby waferwhitemilk » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:18 am

Looking back on it all, I think the plot and acting of the original Twin Peaks wasn't all that great either (to me anyway), in fact it was probably pretty average at best. But what elevated it to something great was:

1. the beautiful way they filmed it, with beautiful locations and a beautiful wardrobe for all the actors
2. the beautiful music
3. the terrible sense of dread of BOB and the red room scenes lurking behind it all

With The Return the plot again wasn't that great, in fact i'd call it below average, but what let it down (to me anyway) wasn't that. It was the ugly digital look of it, the lack of music and a lack of dread. In Lynch's defense: digital is the norm now, music is somewhat played out in general, Silva passed away and MJA made it impossible to hire him. I no longer think Lynch made it bad on purpose, he probably did his best and a lot of people are happy with it, so that's great. But it wasn't for me. Still, i had a lot of fun reading this thread every week. I'd get up a half hour early every monday to watch the first half of the new epi, already looking forward to what you all would make of it this time, then read the topic during work (lol) and watch the second half when back at home. So thank you all for that, thanks to mlsstwr for daring to start the topic, and thanks to dugpa forums for being gracious enough to tolerate it! If anyone here wants to be profoundly disappointed all over again, Morrissey has a new album coming out midnovember. :mrgreen: Take care!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:31 am

music is somewhat played out in general

:shock:
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:37 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:The joy of not getting answers is that we can theorize for years to come.

Yes, we can theorize about things like maybe Audrey is actually hiking in the arctic and just had a nightmare, which is why her background is white when she looks in the mirror. Or we can speculate that Mr. C is actually looking for more playing cards because he wants to become a magician. Both of these theories have as much proof in the episodes as pretty much any other.

The point is, looking for the answers isn't fun when none exist in the first place.

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