Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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AhmedKhalifa
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:56 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
nick1218 wrote:Eraserhead was the first feature of a promising "different" type of director. You can love Eraserhead yet not want to follow the career of one who does nothing but Eraserhead type films. It is not hypocrtical to like eraserhead and even The Grandmother yet have disdain for IE or TR. It is about timing for one thing, plus Eraserhead, which I watched again during TR is simply far better.


Sorry, didn't mean to imply hypocrisy. Obviously everyone is entitled to his/her personal tastes and is under no obligation to explain them, but I was genuinely curious. There's a lot of "I've loved everything DKL did before IE"-style posts in this thread lately, but as far as I can recall, there's never been much love for Eraserhead expressed in here. I was genuinely curious if anyone here likes Eraserhead, particularly those who dislike IE.

And I agree that Eraserhead is a stronger work than TR.


For the record I think ERASERHEAD is a visionary piece of cinema, and I do like it. But it's not my favourite Lynch film.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Hartright » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:28 pm

This is my first post on this thread. I've enjoyed reading everyone's contributions. I really loved watching the TR. Perhaps I have reservations - as I usually have reservations about everything someone else does (I would have done this ...). But my reservations were never enough to stop the visceral pleasure I experienced from week to week as I asked myself "What is this? Where is this going? Why this scene? How does this fit? What is this now?" I loved the visuals, sounds, atmosphere and the endless surprises - even if sometimes it was jarring or hard to reconcile. I loved being in the hands of an artist who confounded my expectations.

Upon reading many of the criticisms of the series here I found myself understanding a lot of the disappointment, and agreeing with reservations about the treatment of various themes (gender, deployment of familiar tropes etc) but I simultaneously loved it - more than TP 1 and 2 which I also love.

This discussion has often referenced other artworks - some of which I'm familiar with and others I'm not. Some that I love and have provided some context for my enjoyment of TR that come to mind are Dennis Potters series The Singing Detective[i] (with its jumbled noir elements alongside family dysfunction, bleeding of genre tropes into the main narrative) Paul Auster's novel [i]The New York Trilogy (identity instability, confusing dissipation of plot lines, intrigue narratives that go nowhere). Thomas Pynchon's novel [Gravity's Rainbow" , which I simultaneously enjoyed and couldn't quite finish (I got too busy with work and knew it was a big task to wade back in) also contains maddeningly digressive subplots, and the lurking presence of a frighteningly destructive weapon which lies behind much of the story. Joyce and Sterne ( Ulysses and Tristram Shandy have been discussed on this thread and my experience with these novels has prepared me for TR - with their juxtaposition of the profound, silly, fantastic, and the maddeningly mundane.

A 1989 interview with pianist Keith Jarrett has been on my mind too. I can't find it so I'll have to paraphrase. He discussed his fan's appreciation of his most famous work - the totally improvised Koln Concert from1976. He remarked that people may have been attracted to the romantic melodies he improvised but that his work was different now (in 1989). Some fans didn't like this. He was more interested in texture and colour. He said he wanted his music to be less melodically interesting, harmonically interesting. He laughed and said if he had a goal it was to be less interesting. He was interested in areas where there was potential for a melody but not the melody itself. He has also remarked that he can hear a certain magic in his earlier performances but felt that he was not content to let the magic be and kept introducing new material. Going back to the flavour of his early concerts was not only not desirable it was impossible - he could only produce work that came from him now.

I felt ambivalent about many things in TR (many already discussed by others here) as perhaps I do in most art, but these did not stop my deep enjoyment of following this strange work and I hope there's more such uncompromising TV to come in the future.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Snailhead » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:11 pm

I really like Eraserhead and I adore Inland Empire, but overall I don't think I like The Return.

Re-watched the original Pilot tonight and I'm glad to say that rather than tainting the original, the existence of The Return elevates it. It's funny because back when I was more optimistic about The Return, I was offering this possibility as consolation to the profoundly disappointed - that, hey, if you think it sucks won't it make the original stuff even better by comparison? Now that I'm in the camp of thinking it does kind of suck, I'm happy to say my theory proved to be true! At least for myself.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtsi » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:04 pm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=R81Lq2baH6s

Spot on.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:16 pm

Snailhead wrote:I really like Eraserhead and I adore Inland Empire, but overall I don't think I like The Return.

Re-watched the original Pilot tonight and I'm glad to say that rather than tainting the original, the existence of The Return elevates it. It's funny because back when I was more optimistic about The Return, I was offering this possibility as consolation to the profoundly disappointed - that, hey, if you think it sucks won't it make the original stuff even better by comparison? Now that I'm in the camp of thinking it does kind of suck, I'm happy to say my theory proved to be true! At least for myself.


Yeah, I'm watching Old Peaks again and still enjoying it - except for every time Gordon Cole comes on the screen and I have an irrational urge to throw stuff, but I'm hoping that will pass :lol:
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:41 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I just can't fathom people saying "I've loved everything he did since Eraserhead, but hate IE."


Eraserhead is excellent, especially knowing the struggle of getting it completed. First great example of DL doing fine work under extreme restrictions, over five years! It really shows how much you can do with little.

IE- I like the story, not so much the surface. Too screechy for too long, Laura Dern freaking out for three hours to Penderecki. But I do like More Things That Happened, and the historical prostitution/pornography Lodz/Hollywood parallel connection that took more digging to get at.

I don't love Dune, but DL gave us permission to not consider it his. Speaking of the BV comedian, On the Air is full of that absurdist humor, too--and it puts me to sleep every time.

Eraserhead is the only past project of DL's that I don't see significantly recycled for TR, which shows how little you can do with so much! :P jk
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:23 pm

AhmedKhalifa wrote:

I respectfully disagree. I have been an admirer of Lynch's work for decades. I know what he's about, or, at least, what he used to be about. His work, regardless of what you refer to in terms of what he thinks a story is, used to be about vision, originality, power, mood, and storytelling, even if it was on his own terms (like MD, FWWM, TP pilot, Blue Velvet, etc.), and that's why he was regarded as a visionary, and, personally, that's why I admired his work. Not anymore. IE and TPTR are self indulgent disasters, even if viewed through his rules and standards, and no amount of "you'll like it in the future" or "it's Lynch's vision" rhetoric is going to change that for me, since the problem with TR isn't simply its incoherence/abstractions, it's its shoddiness, ugliness, bleakness, and glaringly obvious self-indulgence and "greatest hits of Lynch" feel.


i do see where you are coming from and this was my feeling about inland empire, i felt it was a ( very) few great scenes surrounded/ buried by all the things you delineate in your last sentence...however, this time I around in TP TR for me at least the pros outweigh the cons. This does not mean that i do not recognise the cons. I could quite happily lose 25% of it. I don't see incoherence/ abstractions, this is way less abstract than IE, in fact it is not abstract atall, if anything it has a problem with being over-literal. I will grant you there are shoddy parts, but there are more parts that are far from shoddy, so, on balance, for a TV series, I can live with that. Ugliness, I don't agree atall, i found most of this series amazing to watch on a level of IMAGE and cinematography. For me the way it looked was a major PLUS. Bleakness, well, yeah, sometimes, but gloopily sentimental, ridiculous, or beady eyed and level headed just as often. There was a ( deliberately) awkward tonal mix Could have used abit more wit. Self-indulgence - yep, that became very irritating at times. That is a big part of the 25% i would lose along with the characters who forgot how to act in the last 25 years. On the other hand, there about 6 hours in this series which - for me - are as good as anything he has ever done. When it took off, it really took off. (And for me, Inland Empire only did that in 2 scenes, the hollywood walk of fame scene, and the extended Dern interrogation featured on the ''more things that happened'' DVD).

''Greatest Hits of Lynch'' feel, I actually think there are reasons why he did that, central to one of the themes of the series, about separate fictional worlds each of which co exist and have their own truth, you might not like it but i can see a structural reason why it was there, this also applies to the borrowings from other films, which was a feature of the first TP run and this. You didn't mention this aspect, but i really like the way this TP TR was structured, with all the repetitions and echoes and patternings and subtle visual associations that the viewer ( this viewer anyway) makes days later. This dream logic really worked for me here, on an instinctive level, (in a way that it did not in inland empire, which seemed like a dry intertextual game) and it was a new thing in Lynch-film, at least in the way it worked here, and something I hadn't seen before anywhere else, either. So like i said, I guess we will have to agree to differ on TP TR. For me '' vision, originality, power, mood, and storytelling.... on his own terms'' - there is still enough of that there in at least 1/3 of the material here - as i say,that's at least 6 hours - to have kept me involved/ absorbed/ engaged.

Even if i do find common cause in this group about the more painful aspects :)

Cheers.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby powerleftist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:18 am

There are plenty of sites on the internet to praise David Lynch. Why is this thread getting so many uplifting comments?

TP:TR has been trash to me and this is the only place on the internet to say it. Please, let us be.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Eva Marie » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:50 am

"I've actually been on a binge of feel-good material to wash out the terrible taste left by TR. :cry:


Can you recommend something? :)"

Oh yes: The Hidden did wonders for me. It's the extreme opposite of TR: Sci-fi concept dripping with humanism, quientessentially 80s atmosphere and a young, angelic-looking MacLachlan actually investing wonderful subtle acting on worthy material!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:08 am

Eva Marie wrote:"I've actually been on a binge of feel-good material to wash out the terrible taste left by TR. :cry:


Can you recommend something? :)"

Oh yes: The Hidden did wonders for me. It's the extreme opposite of TR: Sci-fi concept dripping with humanism, quientessentially 80s atmosphere and a young, angelic-looking MacLachlan actually investing wonderful subtle acting on worthy material!


Know The Hidden, been watchin' it for some 25 years, discovered it around the time of the first TP, a wonderful flick! :)
P.S.: Michael Nouri, who plays human companion of MacLachlan's alien, always somehow reminded me of Michael Ontkean. Come to think of it, their relationship in the movie is very akin to the one shared between Cooper and Truman in TP (the comparison is even more apt given that they're both lawmen, Nouri a police detective and MacLachlan actually an FBI agent); even though Cooper is human (or at least he back in '90-'91), his demeanor is such he could well stem from another planet.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:16 am

sylvia_north wrote:Speaking of the BV comedian, On the Air is full of that absurdist humor, too--and it puts me to sleep every time.


I would definitely be in the "profoundly disappointed" group for On the Air. The only real redeeming factor is Migue Ferrer, who is essentially playing Albert. That and Dumbland are DKL's two big career low points for me, but thankfully they're very minor works. Many of the sheriff's station scenes in TR fall into this category for me as well, and I'm glad the series eventually moved past the corny humor scenes for the most part. When DKL tries to do straight goofy humor, it just doesn't work for me. Which is why I'm kinda glad One Saliva Bubble never got made.

is the only past project of DL's that I don't see significantly recycled for TR, which shows how little you can do with so much! :P jk


I think the deadpan dialogue delivery, long pauses between lines and painfully deliberate pacing in many scenes in TR are as close as DKL has come to returning to the Eraserhead style in his career. Dougie also feels more like Henry than any subsequent character in the Lynchian repertoire, albeit a more feel-good version, unwittingly spreading joy instead of being permanently under the world's bootheel. But both are oblivious blank slates endlessly staring into the distance while life happens around them. There's even a shot of Dougie getting into an elevator with his arms full of case files that almost has to be a deliberate callback to Henry with his paper bag. Some of the "world has gone to hell in a handbasket"-style scenes in TR (such as the endless car horn honking/sick girl) also have a distinct tinge of Eraserhead's crushing existential dread.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Eva Marie » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:18 am

In regard to Lynch being incredibly lucky - I concur and I've talked about this at length on Welcome to Twin Peaks and it's something his hardcore fans don't seem to put much thought into:

The first screening of Eraserhead attracted a whopping crowd of...almost nobody. DL had a 99% chance of becoming an obscure art/film professor somewhere, who had once produced a very bizarre flop of a student film he'd be showing to friends on a home projector for years to come. This is most likely how many equally talented offbeat filmmakers end up around the world (the female ones largely miss out on ever getting a budget at all). There is a small circle of fortunate ones who end up making one or a few limited release features/TV projects on shoestring budgets on the European arthouse or American indie scene, which only critics and a few high brow souls will ever hear of. The really lucky ones within that circle will get arthouse international standing and get the dream ticket to Cannes/small time Hollywood (eg. Lars von Trier).

And here's our boy David who really won the jackpot. Scratch that - 28 (?) jackpots at once like Dougie Coop. He got to become Hollywood's and Canal+'s pet autuer! But here's the thing: that post is only held by 1 lucky bastard at a time (kinda like Meryl Streep is Tinseltown's pet aged actress out of goodness knows how many that the industry tosses out with the appearance of the 1st wrinkle). There a couple more adjacent spots available on the Hollywood ladder (think Tarantino), but don't get the same godlike reverence reserved for The Top One. The requirement to getting to either of those coveted places is to a) stick to their signature distinct style, b)maintain a kooky image and c) gradually build up a cult following of fervent and preferably hipster fanboys (+occasional girls) who'll defend anything you produce. NO ONE has ever excelled at all of the above better than DL - this why he is where he is (on top of the incredible amount of luck) and and can get away with something like TR.

When you think about realities like that, you develop a knee-jerk cynicism towards anyone who waxes lyrical about how he's such an uncompromising artist who won't play ball with the boogiemen Hollywood execs and constantly breaks new ground. Frankly, I have yet to see him step out of his comfort zone creatively (I haven't seen The Straight Story). Ironically, it's the old Twin Peaks that was very far out of his comfort zone and that happened only because of all the collaboration already mentioned. He also lives in Hollywood despite not having worked there for most of the past 16 years, has big name Hollywood pals, is thrice Oscar nominated and sure has enjoyed the ladies of Tinseltown. Most condemning of all: he knows how to play dirty Hollywood politics as TR's dispute showed, while your average talented arthouse filmmaker couldn't even survive in that mad industry for very long.
Last edited by Eva Marie on Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Eva Marie » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:35 am

IMO, you have to be really naive to think that Lynch got to his cushy position because of how 'weird' his art is (regardless of the undeniable creative value of certain aspects of it pre-TR) or because he's the most gifted of the unconventional directors+screenwriters. Off the top of my head I can think of half a dozen international filmmakers I've seen that are far weirder but will never get the opportunities that he did.

Luck + savvy + maintaining lifelong friendships with the right people in the industry are what got him there. Unfortunately, it seems like he lost perspective on just how much he lucked out, bought into his own hype and isn't constrained by anyone who can pull him back to reality. This is how we ended up with TR, which is the stuff of nightmares in the creative sense for me. It is the single worst piece of audio-visual art I've ever digested (and I've seen some very off-putting arthouse stuff from around the globe). I still can't shake the feeling of disgust out of my system.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:36 am

Eva Marie wrote:In regard to Lynch being incredibly lucky - I concur and I've talked about this at length on Welcome to Twin Peaks and it's something his hardcore fans don't seem to put much thought into:

The first screening of Eraserhead attracted a whopping crowd of...almost nobody. DL had a 99% chance of becoming an obscure art/film professor somewhere, who had once produced a very bizarre flop of a student film he'd be showing to friends on a home projector for years to come. This is most likely how many equally talented offbeat filmmakers end up around the world (the female ones largely miss out on ever getting a budget at all). There is a small circle of fortunate ones who end up making one or a few limited release features/TV projects on shoestring budgets on the European arthouse or American indie scene, which only critics and a few high brow souls will ever hear of. The really lucky ones within that circle within that circle will get arthouse international standing and get the dream ticket to Cannes/small time Hollywood (eg. Lars von Trier).

And here's our boy David who really won the jackpot. Scratch that - 28 (?) jackpots at once like Dougie Coop. He got to become Hollywood's and Canal+'s pet autuer! But here's the thing: that post is only held by 1 lucky bastard at a time (kinda like Meryl Streep is Tinseltown's pet aged actress out of goodness knows how many that the industry tosses out with the appearance of the 1st wrinkle). There a couple more adjacent spots available on the Hollywood ladder (think Tarantino), but don't get the same godlike reverence reserved for The Top One. The requirement to getting to either of those coveted places is to a) stick to their signature distinct style, b)maintain a kooky image and c) gradually build up a cult following of fervent and preferably hipster fanboys (+occasional girls) who'll defend anything you produce. NO ONE has ever excelled at all of the above better than DL - this why he is where he is (on top of the incredible amount of luck) and and can get away with something like TR.

When you think about realities like that, you develop a knee-jerk cynicism towards anyone who waxes lyrical about how he's such an uncompromising artist who won't play ball with the boogiemen Hollywood execs and constantly breaks new ground. Frankly, I have yet to see him step out of his comfort zone creatively (I haven't seen The Straight Story). Ironically, it's the old Twin Peaks that was very far out of his comfort zone and that happened only because of all the collaboration already mentioned. He also lives in Hollywood despite not having worked there for most of the past 16 years, has big name Hollywood pals, is thrice Oscar nominated and sure has enjoyed the ladies of Tinseltown. Most condemning of all: he knows how to play dirty Hollywood politics as TR's dispute showed, while your average talented arthouse filmmaker couldn't even survive in that mad industry for very long.


I think you're spot on. A lot of fans seem to forget that Lynch knows how to play the media and milk his persona, and as mentioned in Brad Dukes' book REFLECTIONS, Lynch is a mastermind and arguably cold blooded when it comes to the business side of things.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Redlodge » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:43 am

I can honestly say that the Return dissapointed me greatly.
I feel like DL just didn't care and wanted to rehash the Fire Walk With Me film. He wanted to redeem it somehow by making it central to TR. I remember going to the theatre in Tampa, FL in 1992 excited to se FWWM and more resolution to the series which had been abruptly cancelled the previous year. I came away from that experience very dissatisfied and The Return has given me the same feeling all over again 25 years later. I felt like week after week the rug was pulled out from under me as I watched my beloved Dale Cooper reduced to a parody of himself. I know Lynch had his vision, dream or whatever the hell it was but without the fans the series would have never need made to begin with. I believe Showtime expected a blockbuster and got a sinking ship. If I had to venture a guess I would imagine that the executives at the network were releived when it was over. Although they tried to put a positive spin on it (what else could they do ?) I feel like they were watching the train wreck as we were. TPTR had potential but fell flat IMHO and it is just a shame that we waited 25 years for this. Reboots seldom work and this one definitely did not. So many plot lines were just abandoned and there were way too many new characters that frankly, no one cared about. I think that DL purposely kept everything under wraps to pull off one of the greatest swindles in history. Think about it, he got a major TV network to give him compete control and millions of dollars without disclosure. Has anyone else ever pulled this off ? ? I don't think so. I used to really appreciate DL's work especially the original Twin Peaks but this is just a complete mess. As I watched week after week I would have hope and then lose hope over and over again. Right before the finale aired I thought "OK this is going to bring everything to fruition and we are going to get some answers. " Yes we did get a few but more questions than answers. I think the moment when I truly gave up was the 'volley-BOB' scene. I mean how freaking ridiculous ! Then as part 18 aired I began to realize my beloved Twin Peaks was truly dead. The mystery was there but the payoff wasn't and nobody cared by that point.
I personally was actually releived when it ended because I was tired of walking around frustrated all summer.
I mean 'Jowday' ? Really ? ? ? To summarize I will say one thing, the feeling I got while watching TR was like the feeling I had when I realized there was no Santa Claus.
I felt sad, betrayed, lied to, angry and shut off all at the same time. TPTR was a cruel joke nothing more and I'm not laughing.
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