Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Venus
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:17 am

Do any of the disappointed left in this thread feel that it's all done and gone now, all over? Literally it is but for me the first two series stood in high stead in my mind for 25 years and only grew in stature over the years. We're a few weeks after the last episode aired and it's already a footnote in my mind. I feel really sad about that.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:51 am

Venus wrote:Do any of the disappointed left in this thread feel that it's all done and gone now, all over? Literally it is but for me the first two series stood in high stead in my mind for 25 years and only grew in stature over the years. We're a few weeks after the last episode aired and it's already a footnote in my mind. I feel really sad about that.

Though I'm not one of the disappointed, the other day I was thinking about the first two seasons and how deeply they impacted me, and contrasting this with how a lot of the second season was disappointing during my recent rewatch. I tried to reconcile these opposing reactions and wondered if youth had something to do with it. Something struck me about the inability to view stories like this and project certain desires onto various aspects of them, now that I'm older and the possibilities are no longer endless.

I know this has nothing to do with season 3, but I'm just trying to imagine what it would be like to see the first two seasons now at age 40. Would they have the same effect that they had on me decades ago? Part of me thinks that we retain the special feelings associated with something from long ago, so that we can't view them objectively. That's fine with me. It makes things personal and frames them and the feelings attached to them in a very specific place and time.

Anyway, sorry for the very loosely related response. Need more coffee.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Poiuyt » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:34 am

Venus wrote:Do any of the disappointed left in this thread feel that it's all done and gone now, all over? Literally it is but for me the first two series stood in high stead in my mind for 25 years and only grew in stature over the years. We're a few weeks after the last episode aired and it's already a footnote in my mind. I feel really sad about that.

Yeah, I can't see myself ever wanting to watch season three again. It hurts.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:47 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:
Venus wrote:Do any of the disappointed left in this thread feel that it's all done and gone now, all over? Literally it is but for me the first two series stood in high stead in my mind for 25 years and only grew in stature over the years. We're a few weeks after the last episode aired and it's already a footnote in my mind. I feel really sad about that.

Though I'm not one of the disappointed, the other day I was thinking about the first two seasons and how deeply they impacted me, and contrasting this with how a lot of the second season was disappointing during my recent rewatch. I tried to reconcile these opposing reactions and wondered if youth had something to do with it. Something struck me about the inability to view stories like this and project certain desires onto various aspects of them, now that I'm older and the possibilities are no longer endless.

I know this has nothing to do with season 3, but I'm just trying to imagine what it would be like to see the first two seasons now at age 40. Would they have the same effect that they had on me decades ago? Part of me thinks that we retain the special feelings associated with something from long ago, so that we can't view them objectively. That's fine with me. It makes things personal and frames them and the feelings attached to them in a very specific place and time.

Anyway, sorry for the very loosely related response. Need more coffee.


I definitely see your point but if, imo, the series (at least parts 1 to 16) had been well crafted, challenging and thought provoking I would have been it's biggest cheerleader despite the age I was viewing it at. As things stand, I couldn't even be bothered to wave a singular pom pom at it.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AhmedKhalifa » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:06 am

It seems the Hollywood Reporter isn't very enamored with TPTR: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-f ... ed-1034888
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mine » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:25 am

Venus wrote:Do any of the disappointed left in this thread feel that it's all done and gone now, all over? Literally it is but for me the first two series stood in high stead in my mind for 25 years and only grew in stature over the years. We're a few weeks after the last episode aired and it's already a footnote in my mind. I feel really sad about that.


Yeah it's fading away very quickly. For me it has to do with the one expectation I had for it being missed.
I hoped, it being written before production started, meant it would be imune from the biggest issue I have with mystery overreaching plot dramas written on the fly. Many showrunners and writers have the bad habit of writing episodes on the fly without knowing where they're going with the plot resulting in underwhelming to disastrous results once the mystery is wrapped. Specifically most of the proverbial pieces of the puzzle end up being irrelevant. It reduces the vast mayority of air time to filler.
I can deal with side plots having issues as long as the main plot is strong. It's inherent and a necessary evil to serialized television as the main plot has to be diluted to fit a number of episodes. It's also one of the main differences between the original show and FWWM.

I think TR really indulged in that by setting itself a remarkably low bar as to how little sense it all needs to make. I get the sense that the writing of The Return started with where the story was left (Cooper in the black lodge, doppelganger wandering around) and the E18 finale of Cooper being sent on a mission so Laura's destiny (whatever it was) would be fulfilled which included her being dragged out of what we knew as her demise. By this hypothesis the main plot would be Cooper returning and having to undergo a mission involving Laura as he was instructed during his 25 years in the supernatural realm. Than a number of vignettes were imposed on this vague idea.
Problem is the main plot never went further from being a vague idea. We know it has something to do with Judy/Mother/Experiment (who may or may not be separate entities), we know Laura is the chosen one (but no idea what for), we know The Fireman sent Cooper in the realm where he found Carrie/Laura as he foreshadowed it. Evil Cooper is around merely out of necessity since he's existence is what we were left at 1/4 of a century ago, which is made obvious by how he seems to be disappearing as the episodes go by. Dougy is essentially a device to keep Cooper out of the way to make space for the "filler" vignettes.

The "pieces of the puzzle" beyond Dougy/Evil Coop and whatever The Fireman needed Cooper and Laura to do that add up to nothing or very little include the New York, Margaret and Hawk, Sarah, Briggs' instructions left for Bobby, most of the newly introduced mythology. All of these things are teased to be converging but in practice are more or less dead ends. It's just disappointing and anticlimactic.
I knew what the ending would be half way through e18, not just because of the spoilers from the set, but because it was obvious there isn't enough time left for anything more articulate to happen. Instead of interesting it felt like a dated gimmick and as far as its role in the narrative just another vignette.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mine » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:33 am

AhmedKhalifa wrote:It seems the Hollywood Reporter isn't very enamored with TPTR: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-f ... ed-1034888

I know TR is supposed to be critically well received, but all TV shows are on the surface. Usually people who are fans are assigned to shows and they write often overly positive articles up until the narrative changes, the comment sections become more critical, the ratings drop on network tv shows, than the tone starts to shift.
It really can be ridiculous how writers overhype certain shows....only to switch the tone a couple of weeks down the line. How a show is written about seems more an editorial choice than an actual opinion.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:24 am

AhmedKhalifa wrote:It seems the Hollywood Reporter isn't very enamored with TPTR: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-f ... ed-1034888


Finally, a review that speaks some sense!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Eva Marie » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:23 am

waferwhitemilk wrote:I really enjoyed Meow (2017) if you're looking for a funny optimistic movie with also some romance and adventure.


Thanks for that. I guess my point was that it takes courage for an artist to be humanist these days. It's too freaking easy to do ugly and nihilistic, because there's nothing at stake and it can be passed off as 'avant-garde' even when it stinks up the place like TR. This is why I just can't denote TR as experimental TV save for ep. 8 and the opening of ep.3. There has to be actual ambition to discover something new in an experiment, whereas TR was too bloody lazy to aim for anything at all except destruction of the old (it's anti-art like already mentioned).

Will it make a lasting impact on me? Yep, that of profound disgust I still have trouble washing away. It's also turned me off watching anything Lynch for life. That bloke needs mental help before he even thinks of putting anymore of his "ideas" on screen. TR also made me take an interest in MacLachlan with good fan pay-off.

In terms of emotional investment I've already moved on like others here. I just swallowed the stylish Good Behaviour and am looking to the 2nd season starting shortly.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Thpthpthpthpthp » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:25 am

It took me a while to write this post, which has gone through multiple lengthy, meandering drafts. In the end, I decided brevity was best. I failed in the attempt, but it's not too long.

Many of the show's internet apologists ask critics, "What did you want, everything wrapped up in a box with a nice bow?" I emphatically did not want that. Bows are adornment. I wanted something that fit together, multiple parts all working together in a beautiful clockwork. But I didn't get that. I didn't get the box with a nice bow, either. I got a box full of ribbons, some knotted, others untied, many a little frayed around the ends. Even the box is falling apart. If I work hard enough, I can use one or two of the ribbons to wrap the box up with a bow of my own devising, and the box will kind of hold together, but it will never be the clockwork masterpiece I wanted it to be.

I like a well-crafted plot. This plot didn't give us any payoff for half the investment it asked of us, and half of what it did give us was completely unearned. In my notes, I have a lot of critiques. I'll just paste one here:

I'm disappointed with how they treated Bob. His violence drove the first 1.5 seasons of TP, and his threat is present in the very last scene. He's practically the antagonist of FWWM. But he is quiescent in TPTR, almost a non-entity. Mr. C isn't even sure Bob is still with him. Nevertheless, it is established early on that someone wants Bob back. In episode 8, Mr. C is shot, and the mysterious Begotten reboot characters show up to extract him from the doppelganger. Then we see an "origin story" linking Bob to the new monster introduced back in the New York sequence. Episode 8 was the perfect send-off for Bob. He's scary, we learn more about him, and we transition to the new threat. Then the whole extraction process is repeated in episode 17 for no apparent reason. How did Bob get back in Mr. C? Did the Woodsmen put him back, and if so, why did they take him out in the first place? I could live with the questions if the scene didn't undo a great, great sendoff for an important classic character.

I'll say some nice things about it to wrap it up: I love Candie. She acts like she's in her own world, and in TP, that's possible. I liked Cole's dilatory tactics while he struggled with the Diane situation, and the brief moment when Albert almost got through to him. Some of the music was very good. I liked the idea that Laura Palmer was created in a higher plane for some purpose (which explains why so many people look like Sheryl Lee--multiple instances of one essence). I liked Cooper's attempt to undo Laura's murder; he was willing to sacrifice all the relationships he made in Twin Peaks to save one person's life, and that seems very noble and Cooper-like to me. I think if he'd succeeded, we'd have had a much better episode 18.

Immediately after TPTR I started a rewatch of Big Love. It's a great character drama. Unlike TPTR, it got me into the minds of people very unlike myself, it made me care about issues that are quite outside my life experience or interests. And several TP actors have pretty big roles.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Redlodge » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:14 pm

Venus wrote:Do any of the disappointed left in this thread feel that it's all done and gone now, all over? Literally it is but for me the first two series stood in high stead in my mind for 25 years and only grew in stature over the years. We're a few weeks after the last episode aired and it's already a footnote in my mind. I feel really sad about that.



I am also sad about season 3. Over the years I could rewatch seasons 1 & 2 over and over and still see the beauty of it. Thinking about watching season 3 again makes me feel almost ashamed in a way. I feel like I was made a fool of and tricked and I didn't appreciate the joke. Before TR aired I felt like I was going to win the lottery and after it aired I felt bankrupt. I just do not see why it had to be what it was. Why couldn't we have gotten a riveting story with suspense and excitement ? I really felt like the whole thing was a bad dream and I have no desire to revisit it. It will be interesting to see how well the Box Set sells.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:27 pm

Thpthpthpthpthp wrote:How did Bob get back in Mr. C? Did the Woodsmen put him back, and if so, why did they take him out in the first place?


It's obviously open to interpretation, but my interpretation is the woodsman revive Mr. C but they have nothing to do with whether Bob leaves or stays.

I took it that in episode 8 when Mr. C is killed Bob pops out to look around and decide what to do next since Mr. C is no longer a useful host. Since the Woodsman revived Mr. C in episode 8 Bob goes back in Mr. C since he's happy to be in an evil guy like Mr. C.

In Episode 17 when Mr. C is killed again Bob attacks because Freddie and Cooper are too big of a threat to leave to Mr. C/ and/ or he really wants to kill Freddie and/ or Cooper himself.

Bob could also be popping out simply to prevent the Owl Ring being put on Mr. C, which would thwart the resurrection. He's not popping out to leave Mr. C.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:33 pm

Eva Marie wrote:
waferwhitemilk wrote:I really enjoyed Meow (2017) if you're looking for a funny optimistic movie with also some romance and adventure.


Thanks for that. I guess my point was that it takes courage for an artist to be humanist these days. It's too freaking easy to do ugly and nihilistic, because there's nothing at stake and it can be passed off as 'avant-garde' even when it stinks up the place like TR. This is why I just can't denote TR as experimental TV save for ep. 8 and the opening of ep.3. There has to be actual ambition to discover something new in an experiment, whereas TR was too bloody lazy to aim for anything at all except destruction of the old (it's anti-art like already mentioned).

Will it make a lasting impact on me? Yep, that of profound disgust I still have trouble washing away. It's also turned me off watching anything Lynch for life. That bloke needs mental help before he even thinks of putting anymore of his "ideas" on screen. TR also made me take an interest in MacLachlan with good fan pay-off.

In terms of emotional investment I've already moved on like others here. I just swallowed the stylish Good Behaviour and am looking to the 2nd season starting shortly.


I like your style, Eva Marie. Good to see you carrying the torch for the more hard-hitting, pisstaking criticism The Return deserves, now that the Class of May to August has passed on. Lynch himself would be disappointed, I think, if at least some of the contempt he's shown wasn't thrown back at him.

One of the most entertaining TR defences has to be that it's "Beckettian". Samuel Beckett relentlessly paying tribute to his own career throughout an eighteen-hour play in which he's self-cast as a heroic septuagenarian boasting that his willy isn't soft... Oh my giddy aunt.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:39 pm

AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:
Eva Marie wrote:
waferwhitemilk wrote:I really enjoyed Meow (2017) if you're looking for a funny optimistic movie with also some romance and adventure.


Thanks for that. I guess my point was that it takes courage for an artist to be humanist these days. It's too freaking easy to do ugly and nihilistic, because there's nothing at stake and it can be passed off as 'avant-garde' even when it stinks up the place like TR. This is why I just can't denote TR as experimental TV save for ep. 8 and the opening of ep.3. There has to be actual ambition to discover something new in an experiment, whereas TR was too bloody lazy to aim for anything at all except destruction of the old (it's anti-art like already mentioned).

Will it make a lasting impact on me? Yep, that of profound disgust I still have trouble washing away. It's also turned me off watching anything Lynch for life. That bloke needs mental help before he even thinks of putting anymore of his "ideas" on screen. TR also made me take an interest in MacLachlan with good fan pay-off.

In terms of emotional investment I've already moved on like others here. I just swallowed the stylish Good Behaviour and am looking to the 2nd season starting shortly.


I like your style, Eva Marie. Good to see you carrying the torch for the more hard-hitting, pisstaking criticism The Return deserves, now that the Class of May to August has passed on. Lynch himself would be disappointed, I think, if at least some of the contempt he's shown wasn't thrown back at him.

One of the most entertaining TR defences has to be that it's "Beckettian". Samuel Beckett relentlessly paying tribute to his own career throughout an eighteen-hour play in which he's self-cast as a heroic septuagenarian boasting that his willy isn't soft... Oh my giddy aunt.


Or the other Sam Beckett...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mine » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:53 pm

Eva Marie wrote:
waferwhitemilk wrote:I really enjoyed Meow (2017) if you're looking for a funny optimistic movie with also some romance and adventure.


Thanks for that. I guess my point was that it takes courage for an artist to be humanist these days. It's too freaking easy to do ugly and nihilistic, because there's nothing at stake and it can be passed off as 'avant-garde' even when it stinks up the place like TR. This is why I just can't denote TR as experimental TV save for ep. 8 and the opening of ep.3. There has to be actual ambition to discover something new in an experiment, whereas TR was too bloody lazy to aim for anything at all except destruction of the old (it's anti-art like already mentioned).

Can it be even considered avant-garde anymore? To me it comes off as a gimmick, outdated even. It's usually employed for shock, but we're all so used to it as such that it barely registers anymore.
I think movies and tv shows are moving in the opposite direction of what TR represent.

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