Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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sylvia_north
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:19 pm

Henrys Hair wrote:
LateReg wrote:Re: Mark Frost's quote about David Lynch's storytelling abilities. I responded to the same quote about a year ago, stating that the three films that Lynch has written without a co-writer are considered his three masterpieces: Eraserhead, Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive.


The writing credits for Mulholland Drive are confusing. The film's credited to Lynch alone, while the pilot's credited as a co-write between Lynch and Joyce Eliason. I've no idea what happened to Eliason's involvement/contribution between the pilot and the movie...


Looks like she got a co-producer credit. That's a bit stingy. Interesting she wrote the TV miniseries adaptation of Joyce Carol Oates Marilyn book Blonde (2001)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:29 pm

sylvia_north wrote:I've done a couple rewatches. It's not very rewatchable. So much skippable content that slips even below Cheerleader Nadine quality. My esteem for Kyle has also increased. If the retarded guy is consistently the best part of the show, and those stock establishing shots :wink: , that says a lot about the rest.


I don't watch an awful lot of television, but having been through The Sopranos a couple of times, and contemplating the acting on display in that show, I feel that those championing Kyle for every award under the sun, are really just bigging up the tallest pigmy in the village. This was a puppet show, where actors flew in to give a couple of lines each, and the one main actor who could have carried The Return, ended up fondling badges, uttering one-syllable words, and walking around like a parody of catatonic patients (I'm not even contemplating his Evil Coop character - just imagine how much more menacing a suited Mr C, roaming around Twin Peaks, would have been, instead of this B-movie villain we were given).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:32 pm

Henrys Hair wrote:
LateReg wrote:Re: Mark Frost's quote about David Lynch's storytelling abilities. I responded to the same quote about a year ago, stating that the three films that Lynch has written without a co-writer are considered his three masterpieces: Eraserhead, Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive.


The writing credits for Mulholland Drive are confusing. The film's credited to Lynch alone, while the pilot's credited as a co-write between Lynch and Joyce Eliason. I've no idea what happened to Eliason's involvement/contribution between the pilot and the movie...


this has interested me as well.. i believe Lynch wrote the script for the Pilot, presented it to ABC and then started mapping out the continuation of the series with Joyce Eliason, some ideas which might've turned up in the movie (in which she is credited as a producer):

"This time around, Lynch has promised that he's given more thought to what will come after the first few episodes. And he's working with former Utahn Joyce Eliason, who has experience writing both continuing series and TV movies. "
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:07 pm

http://www.mulholland-drive.net/studies/pilot.htm

A few weeks later, I visited Lynch at home, in his woodshop. I asked him how he felt about ABC's rejection. He pushed his index fingers against his lower lip and remained in a brown study for a full two minutes. He rose and hit the intercom to request a cup of coffee, sat and thought for thirty seconds more, and finally said, "At a certain point, you realize you're in with the wrong people. Their thinking process is very foreign to me. They like a fast pace and a linear story, but you want your creations to come out of you, and be distinctive. I feel it's possibly true that there are aliens on earth, and they work in television."

Ha! See, the aliens aren't just a Frost thing :wink:

But the executives did wonder how the seemingly unconnected scenes and characters would be tied together. Lynch's scripts, dense with dream images, don't gather up loose ends and sweep to a close; instead, they jump around and then break off, as if jarred by an alarm clock. Although this strangeness was a selling point, it was also a cause for concern. "There's a very fine balance between intriguing people and confusing people," Steve Tao said.

Production began in February 1998 on the Paramount Studios lot, and by May 1998, Lynch had completed a 125-minute version of Mulholland Dr. In June 1998, Lynch was notified that ABC would not pick up the pilot and was not interested in producing a series based on Lynch’s story. According to a Sep/Oct 2001 article in Film Comment, the network felt that the pilot was too dark, slow and confusing.

Who else remembers reading the pilot script that Bruce Philips was selling in, what 97? and trying to visualize it? I don't think it was any of the things ABC was afraid of. It was thrilling! I'm not sorry it became a movie, well anymore- I used to dream of MD the series- and wonder what TR could have been with the strong open then molded from there into a solid feature or miniseries.
Last edited by sylvia_north on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:11 pm

The Gazebo wrote:
sylvia_north wrote:I've done a couple rewatches. It's not very rewatchable. So much skippable content that slips even below Cheerleader Nadine quality. My esteem for Kyle has also increased. If the retarded guy is consistently the best part of the show, and those stock establishing shots :wink: , that says a lot about the rest.


I don't watch an awful lot of television, but having been through The Sopranos a couple of times, and contemplating the acting on display in that show, I feel that those championing Kyle for every award under the sun, are really just bigging up the tallest pigmy in the village. This was a puppet show, where actors flew in to give a couple of lines each, and the one main actor who could have carried The Return, ended up fondling badges, uttering one-syllable words, and walking around like a parody of catatonic patients (I'm not even contemplating his Evil Coop character - just imagine how much more menacing a suited Mr C, roaming around Twin Peaks, would have been, instead of this B-movie villain we were given).


In my view, Twin Peaks has never been an 'actor's show', it's always been a 'director's show' if that makes sense. Even back in the day, it wasn't really known as a show where you could get roles that would have the emotional range to compete for an Emmy (I believe only Piper Laurie received an Emmy nomination for the original Twin Peaks.)

There were a lot of great little performances in this show. But everyone's role compared to Kyle was so small, it's questionable if anyone but Kyle might get a nomination (not sure if Kyle will either, but if anyone will, it's probably him).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Henrys Hair » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:16 pm

claaa7 wrote:
Henrys Hair wrote:
LateReg wrote:Re: Mark Frost's quote about David Lynch's storytelling abilities. I responded to the same quote about a year ago, stating that the three films that Lynch has written without a co-writer are considered his three masterpieces: Eraserhead, Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive.


The writing credits for Mulholland Drive are confusing. The film's credited to Lynch alone, while the pilot's credited as a co-write between Lynch and Joyce Eliason. I've no idea what happened to Eliason's involvement/contribution between the pilot and the movie...


this has interested me as well.. i believe Lynch wrote the script for the Pilot, presented it to ABC and then started mapping out the continuation of the series with Joyce Eliason, some ideas which might've turned up in the movie (in which she is credited as a producer):

"This time around, Lynch has promised that he's given more thought to what will come after the first few episodes. And he's working with former Utahn Joyce Eliason, who has experience writing both continuing series and TV movies. "

That sounds like it could well be the case.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:29 pm

mtwentz wrote:There were a lot of great little performances in this show. But everyone's role compared to Kyle was so small, it's questionable if anyone but Kyle might get a nomination (not sure if Kyle will either, but if anyone will, it's probably him).


Yeah, I'm not belittling the actors as such - I enjoyed several of the performances (You're right about this not being an actor's show - Lynch's strength is probably taking "random" people and elevating their performances through his directing skills, making them integral parts of the tapestry). I suppose my view is more of a commentary towards the born-again Kyle-ists, who from the opening week suddenly elevated him into the pantheon of great actors. Yes, it's probably him that will get the nominations, but I just can't objectivly see him being up there on the basis of this show, no matter how much significance he's had in our lives as TP fans. But, as I said, I don't watch a lot of shows, so I might be overestimating the wealth of potential nominees for awards.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:39 pm

The Gazebo wrote:
mtwentz wrote:There were a lot of great little performances in this show. But everyone's role compared to Kyle was so small, it's questionable if anyone but Kyle might get a nomination (not sure if Kyle will either, but if anyone will, it's probably him).


Yeah, I'm not belittling the actors as such - I enjoyed several of the performances (You're right about this not being an actor's show - Lynch's strength is probably taking "random" people and elevating their performances through his directing skills, making them integral parts of the tapestry). I suppose my view is more of a commentary towards the born-again Kyle-ists, who from the opening week suddenly elevated him into the pantheon of great actors. Yes, it's probably him that will get the nominations, but I just can't objectivly see him being up there on the basis of this show, no matter how much significance he's had in our lives as TP fans. But, as I said, I don't watch a lot of shows, so I might be overestimating the wealth of potential nominees for awards.


I am like you, I don't watch a lot of shows ("The Good Place" is the only other current show that I watch) so I am in no position to judge whether Kyle should or shouldn't be nominated, because frankly, I won't have seen any of the shows from which the nominees are drawn :-).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby TwistedFate_L4 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:30 pm

So for the past month I was able to take my mind off Twin Peaks by focusing on other things and now that I've cleansed the pallet and fully digested "The Return" or "Season 3"- Whatever you want to call it- I definitely view it through a fresh pair of eyes.

As soon as it ended I was quite sure I wouldn't want to watch the season ever again, however, I'm sure with time, perhaps in the near future- I'll be interested in giving it an encore viewing. I don't know if I'll be able to make it through all 18 hours again, mainly because the pacing and length of some scenes are just down right agonizingly slow and made it even worse by the lack of music in said scenes. 7 minutes of floor sweeping does not sound like fun. I knew a lot of that would hurt the rewatch factor for me and I think ultimately I'd rather watch certain scenes or sections of my choosing rather than whole episodes- which makes sense considering my opinion on the season.

Basically, I definitely enjoy season 3 from a creative stand point- the show Is full of striking imagery, bold characters, and tantalizing sequences that sends the imagination into overdrive. There are so many scenes that I just really enjoyed on their own and really lit a creative fire within myself. I can see others watching this season and getting ideas or having their minds opened to a wide array of genres, tones, moods, and scenery for their own perspective works- basically The Return reminds me of a store that has basically every kind of item you can imagine but its thrown on the shelves all willy nilly, so you have to sift through piles to find the stuff you like- there's a lot of junk and bullshit, but there are some real gems as well. I see this season as basically "Visual Porn" that's meant to stimulate the mind with several vaguely related vignettes at the center- perhaps that's the point. For me, trying to make absolute sense of the story is pointless- I just look at this season as one big fever dream or nightmare.

There's beauty, drama, horror, comedy, fantasy, sci-fi, noir, it's all there- strung together by brutal violence (I'm a horror fan so I always enjoyed that about this season), music, and a few old faces. It's the kitchen sink. I can enjoy it simply from that stand point. Visual porn.

However, just because I can appreciate it for what it is doesn't mean I think it's "genius" or "wonderful" - My original critiques are still valid. I think my point above further supports the fact that this should've been an entirely new property from the getgo without slapping the Twin Peaks name on top of it. I went into the season expecting it to be wildly different from the original two- even when all we were getting was re-edited old footage from the original show for marketing- I knew this would be a different beast. I still ended up disappointed. Not every one who hated it wanted a rehash of the first season and not every one hated it just because they "didn't get it". I still think it's a mess and downright travesty overall- but there is some beauty in the wreckage.

But, it is what it is.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:21 pm

TwistedFate_L4 wrote: 7 minutes of floor sweeping does not sound like fun.

To kill the time, get up, boogie, stuff a donut in your mouth. Do an espresso shot. Or a shot of whatever is handy until Jean-Michel Renault is done talking about procuring high schoolers. Which brings me to...
TwistedFate_L4 wrote:Visual porn.

Porn : the Greek porne or "bought, purchased female slave sold for prostitution," (with -ography meaning representations/studies of... )

Maybe there's a better term for what you mean. Visual buffet? Eye candy? Also, I concur with your sentiments. Like a buffet, you don't want everything there. It's not the Sterling Brunch at Bally's, but it's not the $1 Midnight Buffet at El Rancho.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:38 pm

sylvia_north wrote:
Henrys Hair wrote:
LateReg wrote:Re: Mark Frost's quote about David Lynch's storytelling abilities. I responded to the same quote about a year ago, stating that the three films that Lynch has written without a co-writer are considered his three masterpieces: Eraserhead, Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive.


The writing credits for Mulholland Drive are confusing. The film's credited to Lynch alone, while the pilot's credited as a co-write between Lynch and Joyce Eliason. I've no idea what happened to Eliason's involvement/contribution between the pilot and the movie...


Looks like she got a co-producer credit. That's a bit stingy. Interesting she wrote the TV miniseries adaptation of Joyce Carol Oates Marilyn book Blonde (2001)


Actually, I’m almost certain she is not credited on the film in any capacity — not even a “special thanks.”
I know IMDB and some other sources give her a co-producer credit, but it doesn’t appear in the film’s credits. Curious and curiouser.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:50 am

sylvia_north wrote:
TwistedFate_L4 wrote: 7 minutes of floor sweeping does not sound like fun.

To kill the time, get up, boogie, stuff a donut in your mouth. Do an espresso shot.


yep, the floor sweeping scene don't bother me much on a rewatch because we got to take in a great track like "Green Onions" and i think it's a pretty fun subvertion of expectations as we at this point has come to learn to expect a band on stage playing to a crowded room when we see the Roadhouse.. it's also more like 3 minutes.. the scene that bugs me so much more is the extended spray painting of Jacoby's as it doesn't really have anything to make it interesting on a rewatch.

Porn : the Greek porne or "bought, purchased female slave sold for prostitution," (with -ography meaning representations/studies of... )


whoa, i had no idea that's where the term porn came from. thx for the enlightenment.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Joe McCluskey » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:02 pm

Some of you seemingly enjoyed my video on David Lynch’s self-indulgence from about a month ago, so I decided to make a new video talking about a few more issues with the show, primarily Evil Cooper's character and the lack of true mystery. For those interested, here’s a video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iB7fgQffhE 8)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:43 pm

Joe McCluskey wrote:Some of you seemingly enjoyed my video on David Lynch’s self-indulgence from about a month ago, so I decided to make a new video talking about a few more issues with the show, primarily Evil Cooper's character and the lack of true mystery. For those interested, here’s a video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iB7fgQffhE 8)


Aye, good work - you make several good observations, and manage to put them into more coherent words than what I'm able to. :)

I mentioned myself in one of the previous posts how much more menacing an Evil Coop being a player in the town of TP would have been, and that he never really posed a threat to our favourite characters, like Bob or WIndom Earle (for all his hyperbolic mannerisms) did. Come to think of it, it's very, very strange that they decided to have either of the two Coops interact with the locals just at the very end.

Another good point is "meant nothing in the grand scheme of things", and "almost nothing from the show meant much when it was all said and done". This is probably one of the key issues people like us had with the show. There was not a story that we could grow into given enough time; just 'sketches' as Gabriel has put it earlier. It's like they had all these random ideas - dreamt up at various points during the last 25-30 years - which they just built the various episodes around, before thinking: "Hey, we've got a 2-hour finale coming up. What should we do?"

Furthermore, great observation about just being told about (as opposed to watching) Evil Coop's treatment of Diane and Audrey. I keep coming back to the 'killer's reveal' scene of season 2. Was there anything remotely as disturbing and haunting a pay-off as that in the Return? I can't think of anything that even reaches its knees in terms of impact.

"Nothing was at stake", you say. I wholeheartedly agree. That's why this show - despite having some great scenes, interesting set-ups and the occasional foreboding atmosphere - was a wasted opportunity like I could never have imagined beforehand.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:11 pm

Thank you for your videos, Joe! They're perfect.

I'm still in shock by the whole Return. The only real concrete mystery to me in the end was how Lynch and Frost constructed this ultimate mess. There was so much great potential... and this coming from someone who hates most of the second season, and thought the only way they could go was up with anything- anything! - they did.
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?

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