Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Agent Earle
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:30 am

ThumbsUp wrote:First time in this thread so sorry if I repeat any tired arguments.

Most of my friends loved it, others thought it was bullshit. The difference separating them is that those who disliked it went in with more expectations, I think: whether it was cherry pie or a storyline structure that's even passably familiar to what we usually see in books, movies or TV (and there's nothing with that!). Those who liked it were open to whatever.

For me, it's replaced Mad Men as my all-time favourite show, although Mad Men's DNA is all over The Return.


And you are in here because ... why, exactly?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby powerleftist » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:30 am

ThumbsUp wrote:For me, it's replaced Mad Men as my all-time favourite show, although Mad Men's DNA is all over The Return.

That's an incredibly interesting and appropiate message for this thread. Thanks for your contribution.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby BGate » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:00 am

By that logic you guys shouldn't be allowed to post in any other thread on this board.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:43 am

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:16 am

I think an issue with critically appraising Lynch’s works, going back to Eraserhead, is that it’s far easier to dismiss them as incoherent/self-indulgent than to articulate reasons why they’re good, beyond “here’s a list of moments that really affected me emotionally,” because they function on a visceral level and often willfully defy conventional structure. The positive aspects are often not something that can be explained intellectually. Think about the Red Room scene from Episode 2 — if someone comes at you and says it’s pretentious nonsense, how do you defend it, beyond describing how powerfully it hit you on a gut level? “It’s unique and it made me feel something” is really the only critical defense. that doesn’t make the scene any less great. Just difficult to defend in words. Either you love it or you don’t.

That’s not to say that criticisms of S3 are not valid — I respect and on some level relate to the perspective of many on this thread. But the point where I diverge from many of the posts here is the moment when people start claiming that it is IMPOSSIBLE to like S3 unless one is being willfully blind to flaws, or tricked by Lynch. This is just as elitist as the pro-S3 folks who shit on you decent folk as uncultured nostalgia-junkies. I see the flaws in the season, it’s not exactly what I might have wanted every step of the way, but I’m still thrilled that it exists. Do I think it functions as a unified, cohesive work? Not particularly. But TP has NEVER functioned as a unified, cohesive work, aside from S1 and FWWM taken as self-contained units. It’s always been a messy, sprawling, stylistically evolving saga. What’s important to me is that S3 was brimming with scenes and moments that made me feel joy, horror, sadness and humor. And I believe I and others have articulated what many of those scenes and moments were in this thread and elsewhere. If you want a quick reference point without combing through countless threads, LostintheMovies’s blog posts are a terrific analysis Part-by-Part with which I largely agree.

In regards to Lynch simultaneously indulging in and defying nostalgia, my response is...so? Life is full of contradictions. We’re all hypocrites on a daily basis, striving to be one thing but actually acting counter to that ideal out of laziness or selfishness. I prefer it when works take a complex/contradictory approach to a theme. What Lynch did on S3 is far more interesting to me than a straight “nostalgia = bad” theme. The same goes for the gender politics — I think Lynch was consciously confronting his own conflicting artistic impulses, and Part 18 makes pretty clear that the series isn’t endorsing bullshit machismo/chauvinism, even if L/F themselves often find themselves falling into certain unfortunate tropes, and Lynch used Gordon’s character to acknowledge his own shortcomings in a self-aware way.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:36 am

Agent Earle wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:First time in this thread so sorry if I repeat any tired arguments.

Most of my friends loved it, others thought it was bullshit. The difference separating them is that those who disliked it went in with more expectations, I think: whether it was cherry pie or a storyline structure that's even passably familiar to what we usually see in books, movies or TV (and there's nothing with that!). Those who liked it were open to whatever.

For me, it's replaced Mad Men as my all-time favourite show, although Mad Men's DNA is all over The Return.


And you are in here because ... why, exactly?


To engage people with different opinions?

powerleftist wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:For me, it's replaced Mad Men as my all-time favourite show, although Mad Men's DNA is all over The Return.

That's an incredibly interesting and appropiate message for this thread. Thanks for your contribution.


Yikes, hi. Anyway, my friend who hated TP but loves Mad Men saw TP in a different light after we had a convo pointing out the similarities. Shrug.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:51 am

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:50 am

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:20 am

AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:Having said that, there is something to this:

I think an issue with critically appraising Lynch’s works, going back to Eraserhead, is that it’s far easier to dismiss them as incoherent/self-indulgent than to articulate reasons why they’re good, beyond “here’s a list of moments that really affected me emotionally,” because they function on a visceral level and often willfully defy conventional structure. The positive aspects are often not something that can be explained intellectually. Think about the Red Room scene from Episode 2 — if someone comes at you and says it’s pretentious nonsense, how do you defend it, beyond describing how powerfully it hit you on a gut level? “It’s unique and it made me feel something” is really the only critical defense. that doesn’t make the scene any less great. Just difficult to defend in words. Either you love it or you don’t.


But remember, I'm not querying why fans haven't praised particular aspects. I'm asking why the reluctance to refute the central criticism from the sceptics. Not the same thing. Though if there's one dugpa poster who has come close to doing this, it's you, sir.

But we still lack anything remotely comprehensive, even from the professional critics, just somebody saying, "Look, here are the main criticisms of the show and here's why they're wrong" -- say, the reverse of judasbooth's posts in this thread. And it's a genuine request. If such a thing exists anywhere, and if it's detailed, closely-argued and doesn't suffer from selective blindness, I'd like to read it.


I think that even trying to refute the critiques is the issue because it seems to have chosen to eschew most things traditionally tied to a tv show on which tv critique is based. This quite possible means Season 3 failed as a tv show, an opinion I agree with. I think it succeeded as a whole and as an experience, but not as a traditional tv show. I don't think any criticism is right or wrong, it is there to guide and help people decide if something would be up their alley or not and to allow for discussion. In the end this is one of those things where I think that you either enjoyed the work or you didn't(I'm not saying you either liked it 100% or disliked it 100%, just that there are very few people who are true neutral on Season 3).

To address your anti-nostalgia point, I didn't find the theme to be anti-nostalgia, but about the fight between moving forward and indulging nostalgia. Sometimes indulging that nostalgia worked for the characters in the world - Big Ed and Norma, and sometimes it didn't - Cooper literally revisiting the past. In the end I think it was more planted in trying to avoid nostalgia, but realizing that nostalgia isn't all bad. It just depends. Mr. Reindeer put it best above with this
Mr. Reindeer wrote:In regards to Lynch simultaneously indulging in and defying nostalgia, my response is...so? Life is full of contradictions. We’re all hypocrites on a daily basis, striving to be one thing but actually acting counter to that ideal out of laziness or selfishness. I prefer it when works take a complex/contradictory approach to a theme. What Lynch did on S3 is far more interesting to me than a straight “nostalgia = bad” theme. The same goes for the gender politics — I think Lynch was consciously confronting his own conflicting artistic impulses, and Part 18 makes pretty clear that the series isn’t endorsing bullshit machismo/chauvinism, even if L/F themselves often find themselves falling into certain unfortunate tropes, and Lynch used Gordon’s character to acknowledge his own shortcomings in a self-aware way.


I love watching things that you can tell were made with love, care, and passion even if they have flaws. One example I can give is Crapoke(crappy karaoke) by Ken Plume( you can listen here if you really want to). He is genuinely not a good singer, but there is passion and love in each song that leads me to enjoying them. It's the same with Season 3. I can accept that it is a very flawed work, and I totally understand where almost everyone in this thread is coming from(it's the only thread I read during Season 3 because it provided the best discussion that wasn't just about plot, lore, and minutiae) but I think the fact that for me it was a breath of fresh air among a lot of re-makes, re-boots, and continuations that tried to feel as much like their progenitors, whereas Season 3 felt comfortable not conforming to pre-existing requirements and was what it was proudly.

I'm not sure if you saw my posts earlier in this thread, but I agree with a lot of the problems brought up in this thread from both a critical and what I thought I wanted to see standpoint. I think the narrative outside of the Dougie stuff could have been more cohesive and grown out of that main thread better, 15 - 30 minutes of Dougie stuff could've been cut and been spent on the other characters, there are problems with the portrayal of women but I feel it accurately represents the way women are treated in the world we live in, the BOB orb battle with someone not from Twin Peaks "defeating" it, and I wish more music had been in the series.

A couple of other things I disliked that I think were out of the control of the production were shooting on digital(since Lynch originally said he was falling in love with film again and only announced the switch to digital after the standoff, I'm assuming that was a trade off) and it being too sunny in some of the Twin Peaks scenes.

But, after reflection(I wasn't sure where to count myself for sure until a couple weeks after the finale), I realized that none of those things detracted enough from my enjoyment of the mood, feelings, story, and world to end up putting myself in the PDSG. I think if we spent a less time with Dougie, it would blunt that missing Cooper feeling for everyone that is able to watch it after if finished airing. The people that newly discover Twin Peaks from here on out won't have any wait, and I think Dougie was a great way for future watchers to feel that loss and want. Also. the fact that it was something totally different that could be/mean something different to everyone who watches it really stuck with me. I think two or three more expositiony scenes could've tied everything together, but it would have killed the mood and endless ambiguity of a lot of the things that you have to put together for yourself. I love that it is messy and sprawling and that's why it resonated with me.

I know the above is rambly and not exactly what you were looking for, but the above is about the best way I can articulate my love of Season 3 while accepting that it definitely isn't for everyone.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:59 am

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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtsi » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:20 am

ThumbsUp wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:First time in this thread so sorry if I repeat any tired arguments.

Most of my friends loved it, others thought it was bullshit. The difference separating them is that those who disliked it went in with more expectations, I think: whether it was cherry pie or a storyline structure that's even passably familiar to what we usually see in books, movies or TV (and there's nothing with that!). Those who liked it were open to whatever.

For me, it's replaced Mad Men as my all-time favourite show, although Mad Men's DNA is all over The Return.


And you are in here because ... why, exactly?


To engage people with different opinions?

powerleftist wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:For me, it's replaced Mad Men as my all-time favourite show, although Mad Men's DNA is all over The Return.

That's an incredibly interesting and appropiate message for this thread. Thanks for your contribution.


Yikes, hi. Anyway, my friend who hated TP but loves Mad Men saw TP in a different light after we had a convo pointing out the similarities. Shrug.
I'm not interested in convincing others to love or despise the show and I am grateful for your love and sentiment towards the show.

This said, you must understand this particular thread is for those the either disengaged from the show due to a frustrating experience or downright hated what happened to their beloved Twin Peaks.

Either eay, you have to understand people aren't going to say hey welcome when the first thing you post is a 100% positive review of the show.

It's like going to McDonald's and shouting at the top of your lungs, "hey everyone....look over here! I love Burger King!"

What would you expect?

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:43 am

bowisneski wrote:It's the same with Season 3. I can accept that it is a very flawed work, and I totally understand where almost everyone in this thread is coming from(it's the only thread I read during Season 3 because it provided the best discussion that wasn't just about plot, lore, and minutiae) but I think the fact that for me it was a breath of fresh air among a lot of re-makes, re-boots, and continuations that tried to feel as much like their progenitors, whereas Season 3 felt comfortable not conforming to pre-existing requirements and was what it was proudly.


Happy that you enjoyed this thread, and thank you for a well-reasoned post :) Now, the point you make about plot, lore and minutiae is actually one of the (minor) reasons why I ended up on the other side of the fence. When the devoted fans in essence were mostly concerned with these things - which I struggled to relate to - I began to think that this show wasn't really meant for me from the beginning. Discussions about why individual scenes made an impact were mostly absent. At times the grandiose theorizing and obsession with minor details made fans look like they came straight from a meeting of the local conspiracy club.

bowisneski wrote:The people that newly discover Twin Peaks from here on out won't have any wait, and I think Dougie was a great way for future watchers to feel that loss and want.


This is actually a very good point, and I wouldn't be surprised if future viewers experience a more seamless transition between seasons 2 and 3 than many of us old-timers.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:22 pm

AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:It's not what I was looking for -- it doesn't refute the sceptics' central criticisms -- but it's a well-considered post nonetheless. But the suggestions that there's equivalence between TR's pro-nostalgia and anti-nostalgia are bewildering. And even if there were such equivalence (there isn't) the question remains: if you'd made this series, and ended it on such an emphatically anti-nostalgic note (retcon; 'it was all a dream'), would you have strewn it with nostalgia about your own career?

Sorry about that, but like I said I don't think there is any refuting for most criticism leveled at Season 3. I agree with a lot, but they didn't detract from the overall experience enough for me. I also don't think it was all a dream or retconned, but I can see how you can easily come to that conclusion and the fact that we can disagree about that is something that I love.

Honestly, no I would not have or at least I would have tried not to. Specifically because of Jurassic World and The Force Awakens. I thought both were solid and felt like the originals, but neither really brought much new to the table or left me with anything to think about. I can't stop thinking about Season 3. I would have tried to avoid any sort of nostalgia at everyturn. But even if the show had just been 18 hours of Cooper staring at the camera with no other references to anything prior, bringing that character back is nostalgic. So I think it would be almost impossible to create a continuation without nostalgia. So you end up with something akin to the above examples or you try to do something radically different like Season 3. I think some things like Ed and Norma were only there as nostalgia and fan service, but it makes sense to return to those characters in a continuing story. It's hard for me to split it out because bringing Twin Peaks back at all is at it's core nostalgic.

Anyways, below I'm going to quote bits of posts I made from elsewhere on the forum about how I would've handled the story using the same scenario we were provided with
I don't think we should have seen any of the town of Twin Peaks until at least halfway through, if not later. This is no longer the story of the town of Twin Peaks, it is the story of Dale Cooper and Laura Palmer. Those should have been the through lines. I would never want the following thing cut, because they helped the mood of the thing as a whole that I loved, but there is a stronger show there from a plot perspective if you cut Ed, Norma, Nadine, Jacoby, Shelly, Becky, Steven, and Beverly and Tom, and replace Diane with Annie and Tammy with Diane. It's sort of like watching the released cut of FWwM and the Missing Pieces separately vs watching the Q2 edit of FWwM. The story of FWwM suffers in the Q2 edit, but you get more of what most people wanted which is more of the people and the town and the feeling of the original. If all of the Twin Peaks vignettes with those characters had been cut and put in to Missing Pieces on the bluray and the show we actually got was just Vegas, Buckhorn, the sheriff's department/Richard Horne stuff in Twin Peaks, and the travels of Mr. C, you would have the stronger through line and this would have been Cooper's FWwM.

And I would have replaced Freddie with just James. All that would have had to happen is Ben sends James down to investigate the hum, he is then transported to meet with the Fireman, and the Fireman sends him to a local hardware store to get a glove. It still would have been a little too silly for my personal tastes, but we could've seen it play out, vs hearing the story told, and I feel like it would have been a lot better to give James the role of "defeating" the force that destroyed Laura and would have made it more resonant.

But I think making any of those changes would've only made it a stronger tv show and not a stronger and lasting experience, with the exception of Freddie.

I'm also remembered this bit from an EW interview with Lynch that I think is relevant here as far as nostalgia is concerned(whether you believe him or not is up to you)
JENSEN: Part 8 was amazing from beginning to end, one of the most extraordinary hours of TV we’ve ever seen. Where did the inspiration for the atomic bomb entering into the world of Twin Peaks come from?

LYNCH: It’s a strange story. In my first feature film, Eraserhead, Henry has that same atomic bomb photo on his wall. So the atomic bomb’s in our lives, hopefully not going off, just sitting nicely in a closet. But, you know, things come along. One thing or another can open up portals. [long pause]

JENSEN: There was an atomic bomb in that picture in Eraserhead and now in The Return. Are those happy coincidences?

LYNCH: Sort of. I never really thought about it till later.

JENSEN: It seemed like we encountered so much of you in this show. We felt like we saw allusions to other films, implied, implicit. Were you reflecting a lot on your life and your work while you were making this?

LYNCH: No, it was a coincidence. I guess I just love certain things. It was this world of Twin Peaks that was talking. I didn’t think about any other films.

Which is more of what the Lynch callbacks/nostalgia felt like to me. Similar themes and images usually appear throughout an artists work without specifically being callbacks.

Also, if I am stepping over any sort of bounds or on anyones toes, all someone needs to do is speak up and I'll leave this thread to the purpose it was originally created for. It's just that this is still the most interesting discussion thread to me.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:08 pm

The Gazebo wrote:Happy that you enjoyed this thread, and thank you for a well-reasoned post :) Now, the point you make about plot, lore and minutiae is actually one of the (minor) reasons why I ended up on the other side of the fence. When the devoted fans in essence were mostly concerned with these things - which I struggled to relate to - I began to think that this show wasn't really meant for me from the beginning. Discussions about why individual scenes made an impact were mostly absent. At times the grandiose theorizing and obsession with minor details made fans look like they came straight from a meeting of the local conspiracy club.

I really did, and still do. And glad that post was considered as such by a prolific contributor to the PDSG.

That's an interesting reason, and a great thing to point out that I see all around. Sorry it made you feel that the show wasn't for you though. I do take pleasure in Season 3 subverting expectations, but it's always saddening to see someone who has "fallen out of love" so to speak. For me, now that the show is over, I enjoy dipping my toes in to that stuff like the overarching lore more, but I'm not interested in pouring over tiny details. It's just effort and time I don't have or feel the need to devote, especially since others will do it for me and I can just include the things they "discover" that I find interesting in to my view of the show. I just needed enough for the finale to click for me, and I got that so now I can just watch it as an experience and hopefully pick up on things that deepen it. I totally understand where you're coming from though. The end of Harry Potter feels to me like what a lot of you have expressed about Season 3.

The Gazebo wrote:
bowisneski wrote:The people that newly discover Twin Peaks from here on out won't have any wait, and I think Dougie was a great way for future watchers to feel that loss and want.


This is actually a very good point, and I wouldn't be surprised if future viewers experience a more seamless transition between seasons 2 and 3 than many of us old-timers.

And that's what I was thinking. I've only lived with the show since the Gold Box release, can't even imagine 25 years of waiting, but that was more than enough time to build the show up and want and expect something out of Season 3. It honestly wasn't until the Vedder song became public last summer that I realized sort of what we would be in for, and that it would clash with where I had imagined the story going for years. I've said it elsewhere, but that song was my key to preparing for and understanding Season 3.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:33 pm

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