Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

User avatar
LodgeLove
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 9:42 am
Contact:

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LodgeLove » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:20 pm

Gabriel wrote:
LodgeLove wrote:So, in hindsight, thinking about season three, I’d have to say “what a piece of shit” self-indulgent Lynch to the point that his character even boasts of a strong libido for his age.
I don’t think anyone wanted the Gordon Cole show. They could have edited all the aimless extended shit out and made the season half the running time and still not missed a beat of what it wanted to accomplish and not even at the expense of one syllable of dialogue. What an incredibly wasted once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do something with those characters again.
I only hope that at one of his recent signings at least one fan said to Lynch, “you fucked us”

It’s more likely they simply wouldn’t show up. Had someone had told me five years ago that I’d select ‘Not Interested’ on Amazon’s personalised recommendations for a new Twin Peaks production, I’d have laughed in their face!

If there was this ‘anti-nostalgia’ theme in the new show, then it worked on me. I’ve changed drastically as a person for a substantial number of reasons this year that far outway the affect of a mere tv show, but that little nagging hope that Twin Peaks, the tv show that led to me working in the media, would come back has been dashed against the jagged rocks of disappointment.

I’m hoping to travel a bit in 2018 and I still want to visit Snoqualmie, but, since TPTR, I actually can’t be bothered to watch tv anymore. I’d rather read a decent book (the works of Dumas père at the moment,) so where Twin Peaks excited me about the potential of the televisual medium, TPTR has cemented my long-growing disillusionment with it, proving that any old toss can now be put on a screen and feted by critics.

I’ll get to April, go away for four-to-five months and actually reassess everything. So in a backhanded way I almost owe Lynch a vote of thanks; his show was so bad that I’ve realised I detest the very industry his previous works tempted me into! Thanks for the midlife crisis, Davey-boy!! ;)


I understand that it affected you and others so profoundly. At 49, I’ve become so cynical that it’s almost as if, “of course it’s not what we wanted”. My heart goes out to those that read Wrapped in Plastic and went to the conventions and did their best to keep the Peaks phenomenon alive. To hear such unprecedented news as the comeback of the show they continued to embrace so deeply, only to have it slap them in the face, is disheartening. What did they get? “It’s Gordon Cole and his attractive young assistant! Are they boning? Oh, look he’s misunderstanding words again”. Ha. Ha.

It was if our beloved characters were just thrown in the mix in sort of an obligatory gesture. The real stars of that original show was the romantic spirit, the backdrop of mystery, and a likeable cast. The weirdness, though charming, was actually what killed it. “Here’s an idea, let’s take the best elements of the show put them in the background and all the crap right up front. And even better, David’s going to be the star!”

Watching season three was like having the most beautiful dream and terrifying nightmare all at once.
In my youth, I'm getting old...
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1615
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:56 pm

Gabriel (and anyone else interested in responding) — since you seem to feel that television as a medium is in a state of artistic decay, what era do you consider to have been the peak of great TV? I ask out of genuine curiosity — I’ve seen several on this board express a similar sentiment, that TV is crap compared to what it used to be. While I understand most of the critiques and disappointments leveled at TP:TR in this thread — and even agree with a few them — this more general disappointment with modern TV is rather baffling to me, particularly among fans of the original TP who obviously have a taste for more novel, esoteric fare. While I can think of all-time great series in most eras of the industry (The Twilight Zone, The Fugitive, M*A*S*H, Monty Python’s Flying Circus, Hill Street Blues, The Larry Sanders Show, etc. etc.), those series were almost always the exception rather than the rule, shining gems in a sea of mediocre formulaic horse pucky. Whereas it seems to me that, percentage-wise, high-quality thought-provoking TV has never occupied a bigger chunk of the landscape than it has over the past 15 years — a sentiment both Lynch and Frost seem to endorse, even as the creators of many of these series place TP toward the top of their list of formative influences. Putting aside “best TV series of all time” candidates like The Wire and Mad Men, as well as the many many other slightly lesser works that have now ended their runs, and focusing solely on shows that are or were still active as of this year: The Leftovers, Mr. Robot, The Americans, Better Things (we’re not gonna talk about Louie at all), Fargo, Top of the Lake, Black Mirror, Better Call Saul, Orange Is the New Black, Legion, Jessica Jones, Master of None, Curb Your Enthusiasm and Bojack Horseman among others stand as stunning examples of what can be accomplished in the medium. (The latter is, improbably, one of the best onscreen depictions I’ve ever seen of clinical depression — and also hysterically funny.) You may not love all of them, but IMO it’s hard to deny that the creativity and artistic daring of the past two decades since The Sopranos opened the door is unprecedented. I think this is the most thrilling time since the birth of the medium to be a TV fan. Of course, opinions are like arseholes (everyone has one and they’re frequently in the vicinity of a steaming pile of crap). But I am genuinely perplexed that intelligent, articulate viewers with a penchant for novel fare feel that the medium is in decline, during an era when overall innovation has finally caught up to the short-lived promise of the original run of TP, IMO (and it’s far from an original sentiment). So, again, out of genuine curiosity and a desire to understand: when was TV great?
User avatar
Audrey Horne
Posts: 1852
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The Great Northern

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:19 pm

I have to agree here... TV is thriving right now, especially compared to the dearth of movie going experience. I would think artistically the only thing that was as consistent was CBS’s 70s sitcoms of All in the Family, Mary Tyler Moore Show and MASH.

I will break down the main disappointment though with the Return (for me) to the lack of exploration of doppelgängers and not being responsible for your own actions... what?!! And that your going to have a Twin Peaks reunion and not even have one scene with Cooper and Audrey together?! (Yet you’ll still plan that one raped the other, had a child blah, blah, blah.).
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
Agent Earle
Posts: 726
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:43 am

Agreed all-around with Mr. Reindeer's post - excellently put! Though I've had series from the pre-1999 (the year The Sopranos premiered) TV past I enjoyed and loved dearly - a few examples: Upstairs, Downstairs; Tales from the Crypt; I'll Fly Away; Picket Fences; Northern Exposure; a whole lot of British and American sitcoms from the 80's and the first half of the '90s -, nothing can compare to the level of emotional involvement and deep satisfaction that I derive from the modern TV landscape. This past summer, I devoured Fargo (all three consistently great seasons - I don't think S 3 is of lower quality like some do), then stumbled a bit with the first two seasons of Bates Motel (two soap-ish and bombastic for me, was hoping for the low-key drama approach and what I got instead was a crime action series with some hokey psychology thrown in, so I put it aside), and am now making my way through Boardwalk Empire and simply loving what I see (though I do think it tries a bit too hard to be The Sopranos for the prohibition era). All in all, TV is where I get my fix these days, movies just don't do it for me anymore (I suffered through the critically ballyhooed The Killing of a Sacred Deer this past Wednesday and even went to a cinema for it - boy, what a sleep-inducing catastrophe that was :( ).
IcedOver
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:49 am

Just a random gripe, but did anyone else find Frank, and Forster's portrayal, totally useless? The character offers nothing whatsoever in any scene. Even in the agonizing Wally scene, he just stands and looks lost, nothing going on. It would have been preferable if the character were cut and Hawk were sheriff.

As an aside, Goaz, Robertson, and Fenn are in my town (Pittsburgh) this weekend for a pop culture convention. Never been to one of those; it's not my scene. I'm not going because it's possible you may not get in for their panel, and that's the only reason I'd get a ticket. Any autographs or pictures with them cost like $50 or $100. If it were MacLachlan, Lee, or Frost (doubt Lynch would go to another city to do an appearance), I might go.
Last edited by IcedOver on Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
I DON'T FEEL GOOD!!!!!
Kilmoore
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:20 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:07 am

IcedOver wrote:Just a random gripe, but did anyone else find Frank, and Forster's portrayal, totally useless? The character offers nothing whatsoever in any scene.

I'm gonna go ahead and speculate that this is why Ontkean pulled out of the project. Most of what happens in Twin Peaks is completely irrelevant to the story, especially the sheriff.
IcedOver
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:44 am

Kilmoore wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and speculate that this is why Ontkean pulled out of the project. Most of what happens in Twin Peaks is completely irrelevant to the story, especially the sheriff.

I doubt him not participating had much if anything to do with the size or scope of the role. It just seems he didn't want to be a part. Given that, it would have been preferable had his absence been briefly addressed, and then we could move on with Hawk as sheriff, which makes more sense. The only reason for Frank to be in the show was to give updates on Harry; he provides nothing else. Then it was as if Lynch and Frost realized they needed something for him specifically, and gave him an agonizing scene with his wife which led to one of the most "nothing" moments of the series -- the dispatcher and Chad arguing over Frank's son committing suicide. It felt like it was from another show, totally out of place.
I DON'T FEEL GOOD!!!!!
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1615
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:56 am

I think, when Ontkean dropped out at the last minute, it tickled L/F to continue the series’ theme of “doubling” by introducing the idea of “two Sheriff Trumans,” casting the actor who was originally supposed to play him in the pilot. In fact, I’d bet that if Forster weren’t available, they would have dropped the character. I also wonder if, given the timing (close to the start of production), this wasn’t one of those ideas DKL had unilaterally, and Mark’s only contribution was to say, “Great idea! Go for it.”

I did feel that Forster’s talent was a bit wasted in the role, but he had some good comedic moments. I like the Doris scenes a lot, actually, although I believe that’s a minority view.
User avatar
NormoftheAndes
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:00 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby NormoftheAndes » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:53 am

IcedOver wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and speculate that this is why Ontkean pulled out of the project. Most of what happens in Twin Peaks is completely irrelevant to the story, especially the sheriff.

I doubt him not participating had much if anything to do with the size or scope of the role. It just seems he didn't want to be a part. Given that, it would have been preferable had his absence been briefly addressed, and then we could move on with Hawk as sheriff, which makes more sense. The only reason for Frank to be in the show was to give updates on Harry; he provides nothing else. Then it was as if Lynch and Frost realized they needed something for him specifically, and gave him an agonizing scene with his wife which led to one of the most "nothing" moments of the series -- the dispatcher and Chad arguing over Frank's son committing suicide. It felt like it was from another show, totally out of place.


I thought this was absolutely in place. The whole season seemed to me to be dealing with memories of some tragic event - ie. Laura's death - that is now pretty much unmentioned.

In the station, Frank mentions the boy OD'ing at the high school and then we hear Chad being unpleasantly nasty about this suicide. Then we also have the boy run over in the street scene, which is barely mentioned again. Events like these just pass by with little of the intense grieving we saw in the original show for Laura. Exactly what this all means, I am not quite sure other than suggesting an unreliable narrator of some sort. Much of the Twin Peaks scenes seem incredibly dream-like to me, at the very least. Most strangely, when we move into 'another world' in the Odessa final episode things seem the most real. All very baffling, but I felt it was written well on the whole.
User avatar
NormoftheAndes
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:00 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby NormoftheAndes » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:11 am

sylvia_north wrote:
NormoftheAndes wrote:

Interestingly, I could use almost the same writing if I ever wrote a cohesive review explaining why I think The Return was a failure.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/dav ... te-style/#!


What makes Season 3 difficult to dismiss or just completely bash is that Lynch clearly aimed to create scenes in it with characters who encapsulate that whole 'jumping the shark' scenario. You can't tell me that Lynch (who thought him up) had Freddie Sykes in mind as a heroic figure who we would all laud for years afterwards. The first time I saw his scene bashing the BOB ball, it felt like Lynch was parodying Twin Peaks at its very worst. This was even worse than Josie in a doorknob. Lynch seemed to delight in having quite rudimentary and laughable special effects, like in the Sarah bar scene of her biting the trucker.

What is the reason for all this or the point? Firstly, it makes us question what we are seeing. Secondly, it definitely acted as a big contrast to the final episode. If the final episode was more fantastical than anything that went before it, why did it feel more REAL? That alone makes Season 3 interesting.

But I do think there is a method to Lynch's madness in S3 - why do we see no wildlife in Twin Peaks - no owls, birds, or anything of that sort? Everything pretty much there also feels quite 'still' - we don't barely ever see the old trees blowing in the wind imagery. Why is this? Well, it makes us feel not at home in Twin Peaks. We see an owl in Las Vegas - would that happen in reality anyone? :?

When Chad is the one diving into the doughnuts at Lucy's desk, the audience certainly knows that this is not a place we feel too happy in. I would only hope that Season 4 could be the real 'return to Twin Peaks' and bring back some of the warmth of the town and Cooper, in contrast to the darkness.


I noticed the swipe at "green glove' in Final Dossier, in the same breath Preston wrapping her head around the things they saw- and the WKLP? mystery altering.

I think the final 2 parts felt more real because it was the narrative doubling back on itelf, uncanny resonances, like Lost Highway. And like Lynch told Nochimson, and Final Dossier reiterates, these events were real. (btw I just saw Coherence , a great quantum physics movie- and improvised, apparently.) The books also make it feel real to me, like the 90's books did, as artifacts.

It IS such an icky place to be in, it's masochistic to revisit, this black corn looking-glass reality bubble of Twin Peaks, and when it's not icky, it's self-parodic, and the angel in the red room becomes the robin in BV, warning to not get sentimental. Combined with the end of Final Dossier, everything welcoming about entering Twin Peaks has been reversed, and instead of an enchanted forest framing domestic comedies and dramas, it's bad interminable jokes, demons, a house of horrors, and cursed Indian land chasing you out.

After all these years yearning for a return to the best fictional town ever ever and a new Lynch project, even giving up before Missing Pieces, I selfishly wanted a feast to nourish my soul, and I ended up with food poisoning.


Sorry I only just saw your reply Sylvia, but you put it so brilliantly, how season 3 turned out. But it was designed to be exactly as you write, we just miss the tone of the warmer and more comforting Twin Peaks, with characters who aren't all caught in such personal hells.
User avatar
bowisneski
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:51 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:10 am

Gabriel wrote:
LodgeLove wrote:I’ll get to April, go away for four-to-five months and actually reassess everything. So in a backhanded way I almost owe Lynch a vote of thanks; his show was so bad that I’ve realised I detest the very industry his previous works tempted me into! Thanks for the midlife crisis, Davey-boy!! ;)


I'm guessing you're probably not going to get the bluray or DVD, but I'd suggest watching the documentary if you can get your hands on it. While it probably won't change your mind on the show, it's interesting to hear how much more elaborate Lynch had planned some things to be and to see how angry he is at the Hollywood system and the tight shooting schedule and budget that were enforced on him. There's a part where he says he never wants to work like this again, and talks about how he only got to spend a day shooting all the stuff in the Home by the Sea and he would've liked to spend at least a week on it.

I'd also suggest the documentary for those that think that Lynch didn't give a crap. He puts his all in to the directing and knows exactly what he wants. Again, I don't think it'll change anyone's mind on liking or disliking the show and the content within, but it's very candid and shows the ups and downs of the production.
IcedOver
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:41 am

bowisneski wrote:
I'm guessing you're probably not going to get the bluray or DVD, but I'd suggest watching the documentary if you can get your hands on it. While it probably won't change your mind on the show, it's interesting to hear how much more elaborate Lynch had planned some things to be and to see how angry he is at the Hollywood system and the tight shooting schedule and budget that were enforced on him. There's a part where he says he never wants to work like this again, and talks about how he only got to spend a day shooting all the stuff in the Home by the Sea and he would've liked to spend at least a week on it.


I don't have the BD yet, but if he's complaining, that's a tad silly. He had unprecedented control over a TV show. He's been in "the business" long enough to know how things work, and could have tailored things to meet circumstances. It couldn't be expected to have a large budget and long shooting schedule; that's just not how it works. He himself has said that "Inland" didn't make money for distributors, and that combined with relative inactivity for a decade, and bringing back a niche show, couldn't have meant the coffers would open up. Unless you're Spielberg or someone who has his own studio or producing apparatus, in exchange for creative freedom, you have to give up some stuff.
I DON'T FEEL GOOD!!!!!
User avatar
mtwentz
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:24 pm

IcedOver wrote:
bowisneski wrote:
I'm guessing you're probably not going to get the bluray or DVD, but I'd suggest watching the documentary if you can get your hands on it. While it probably won't change your mind on the show, it's interesting to hear how much more elaborate Lynch had planned some things to be and to see how angry he is at the Hollywood system and the tight shooting schedule and budget that were enforced on him. There's a part where he says he never wants to work like this again, and talks about how he only got to spend a day shooting all the stuff in the Home by the Sea and he would've liked to spend at least a week on it.


I don't have the BD yet, but if he's complaining, that's a tad silly. He had unprecedented control over a TV show. He's been in "the business" long enough to know how things work, and could have tailored things to meet circumstances. It couldn't be expected to have a large budget and long shooting schedule; that's just not how it works. He himself has said that "Inland" didn't make money for distributors, and that combined with relative inactivity for a decade, and bringing back a niche show, couldn't have meant the coffers would open up. Unless you're Spielberg or someone who has his own studio or producing apparatus, in exchange for creative freedom, you have to give up some stuff.


I don't think it's just about Lynch and The Return, he's probably voicing a concern a lot of directors are voicing in private about their individual productions. There will always be tension between the artists and the moneymen.

I remember when Arbogast was on this board, his source saying something to the effect that the production was 'ghetto', that they barely had enough money to pull the whole thing off. And we also heard a rumor that Lynch spent some of his own money to film something additional after the formal production schedule had ended. Not sure if that was true or not, but it seemed clear that Lynch got enough money to bring him back on board, but maybe just the bare minimum. Or heck, who knows, maybe he didn't get what he thought he needed and they forced him contractually to come back :-).
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1615
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:39 pm

Wow, I’m surprised CBS let that footage onto the discs. It cuts against the “creator-friendly network” vibe Showtime has been trying to cultivate with this show.
User avatar
mtwentz
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:43 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Wow, I’m surprised CBS let that footage onto the discs. It cuts against the “creator-friendly network” vibe Showtime has been trying to cultivate with this show.


Nothing surprises me after hearing a couple of actresses say on the Gold Box edition how much the second season of Twin Peaks sucked :-).

Return to “Season 3 (2017) The Return (Spoilers)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests