Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Aqwell
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Aqwell » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:27 pm

eyeboogers wrote:I have seen other online fandoms devolve into near universal hate towards what they were originally founded to celebrate, because the kind of hate that's being spewed on this thread was allowed to fester. I don't want that to happen with "Twin Peaks".
Dude, you come in this specific thread just to antagonize the disappointed fans, judging them or the thread itself. Maybe you feel entitled to 'correct' people, but you're just being an A-hole, and I can't stand that kind of behaviour. The only troll here is you.
Agent Earle
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:03 pm

DELETED.
Last edited by Agent Earle on Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LateReg
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:03 pm

IcedOver wrote:Just a random gripe, but did anyone else find Frank, and Forster's portrayal, totally useless? The character offers nothing whatsoever in any scene. Even in the agonizing Wally scene, he just stands and looks lost, nothing going on. It would have been preferable if the character were cut and Hawk were sheriff.

As an aside, Goaz, Robertson, and Fenn are in my town (Pittsburgh) this weekend for a pop culture convention. Never been to one of those; it's not my scene. I'm not going because it's possible you may not get in for their panel, and that's the only reason I'd get a ticket. Any autographs or pictures with them cost like $50 or $100. If it were MacLachlan, Lee, or Frost (doubt Lynch would go to another city to do an appearance), I might go.


I love how Frank is just kind of there, especially when he's deadpan, which I think that Wally scene called for. But what I really find fascinating about Frank and his lack of momentum as a character is that, unlike every other character in the history of supernatural shows, his character is just presented as someone who is willing to go with the flow, who believes the black lodge nonsense, barely any questions asked. It leads you into a whole imagined backstory for the character (did Harry tell him all about the strange happenings or have their been more supernatural occurrences in the town over the past 25 years that Frank might have encountered?) and it fits perfectly into the whole idea behind the storytelling, which is to plop you into the lives of these characters without any backstory or need for further development. In my eyes, that's a successful and realistic way of picking up a story 25 years later, albeit one which is totally counter to how nearly every other narrative operates. Also, as others have pointed out, Frank fits in with the idea of doubles.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:13 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
Aqwell wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:Which is what you wanted, but not what they wanted. Yet you blame them on a daily basis for following their artistic instinct. It is their lives, their creations and it is voluntary whether to be part of the audience or not.
Once again Eyeboogers you come after the disappointed fans in their own and only thread just because you can't stand to read bad reviews about a show you personally liked. Predictable, boring and sad little man. :|


Oh dear. Hit a bit too close to home eh :-) To answer the question you didn't ask - I have seen other online fandoms devolve into near universal hate towards what they were originally founded to celebrate, because the kind of hate that's being spewed on this thread was allowed to fester. I don't want that to happen with "Twin Peaks".



My, you do give yourself (and by that I mean The Profoundly Satisfied Ones) so little credit it's astonishing - does a handful of negative opinions (you voice again and again there are just a few of us lost at sea of staggering, all-around acclaim this show enjoys), confined to their own measly little thread, really seem so threatening to you that you'd have this thread taken down so as to prevent the whole of Dugpa forum succumbing to negativity, contempt and general shit slinging???
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:27 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:Maybe if Coooer and Mr. C were in the end the same person all the time, legitimate split halves then we’d have something to latch onto and apply to our own lives.

I will break down the main disappointment though with the Return (for me) to the lack of exploration of doppelgängers and not being responsible for your own actions... what?!! And that your going to have a Twin Peaks reunion and not even have one scene with Cooper and Audrey together?! (Yet you’ll still plan that one raped the other, had a child blah, blah, blah.).


Although there wasn't a scene where Cooper literally has to accept his doppelganger's actions as his own, I do believe the entire thing was a dissection of Cooper's personality/being, and therefore I believe it is implied that Cooper and Mr. C were the same person all along. That's what the finale is about, where we see yet another version of Cooper (Richard?), who seems like, at the very least, a total integration of Mr C and the Cooper we know and love. That is Cooper accepting that dark side of himself, and finally allowing himself to be complete rather than the impossible ideal of the original series.

You had also said that you don't know where to begin with the themes, and I just wanted to reiterate that for me I've never seen something so thematically rich, in so many directions at once, that all intertwine to layer perfectly on top of one another. For me, that's where this show succeeds, when one realizes that the surface doesn't contain the actual narrative, but that the narrative is basically a non-narrative that functions as a container for themes and ideas and rhymes and variations. That's how I enjoyed it, and why things like Mr. C's journey doesn't bother me, because I appreciate the irony of a man involved in a single-minded pursuit that ironically leads to his own downfall. And why purposefully dissatisfying plot developments (such as green glove defeating evil) leave me intellectually satisfied, etc., despite wanting certain things to play out differently...which, I think, is exactly the point and yet another layer to this thing. It really interacts with its audience in ways I don't think I've seen before.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:35 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
Which is what you wanted, but not what they wanted. Yet you blame them on a daily basis for following their artistic instinct. It is their lives, their creations and it is voluntary whether to be part of the audience or not.


If their ‘artistic inastinct’ is objectively garbage then ill trash it happily. TPTR is objectively garbage and subjectively ‘good.’


and how do you justify saying that? this is what I mean when I write that you are in no way offering constructive criticism.


Mate, I’ve written literally thousands of words on Twin Peaks since 2007 here. Look it all up. If you can’t cope with a few of us disliking something that we’re ‘profoundly disappointed’ with (ie wanted to like, but couldn’t) that’s a personal issue between you and your psychiatric nurse. You might think it’s about ‘festering’ but how dare you claim our opinions aren’t allowed to exist? Who the hell do you think you are and what gives you the right to pass judgement on us?

There are thousands of threads out there for you to swagger around on and claim intellectual superiority. Go there, as most people here, including those who liked the show, would rather converse with an amoeba.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:53 pm

Gabriel wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
If their ‘artistic inastinct’ is objectively garbage then ill trash it happily. TPTR is objectively garbage and subjectively ‘good.’


and how do you justify saying that? this is what I mean when I write that you are in no way offering constructive criticism.


Mate, I’ve written literally thousands of words on Twin Peaks since 2007 here. Look it all up. If you can’t cope with a few of us disliking something that we’re ‘profoundly disappointed’ with (ie wanted to like, but couldn’t) that’s a personal issue between you and your psychiatric nurse. You might think it’s about ‘festering’ but how dare you claim our opinions aren’t allowed to exist? Who the hell do you think you are and what gives you the right to pass judgement on us?

There are thousands of threads out there for you to swagger around on and claim intellectual superiority. Go there, as most people here, including those who liked the show, would rather converse with an amoeba.


Well, I too would like to know what you mean by "objectively garbage yet subjectively good." That seems...well, like a contradiction, perhaps.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:54 pm

Hey everybody, take a step back, take a deep breath...we're all friends here and we'd probably go out for suds together and have a few laughs despite our differences of opinion on The Return.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:49 am

This information about their resources being limited kinda makes me feel better about the show. I mean, it's crap, and they should have sized it down according to resources available, but still. The slowness, the filler scenes, the music videos, the editing mistakes, poorly constructed characters, pointless stories... They should have aimed for something they could achieve with the budget they had, and over-extended themselves. They tried to make a too ambitious show. I can kind of sympathize with that.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:57 am

Good day everyone! Just decided to post after a while, and it is a limited event too. :lol:

It has been more than three months since TR ended, and having just read the few recent posts in the thread, it made sense to recollect and explain where I am at this point. I have no desire to watch TR again, and will not be getting the DVDs either (ditto for the soundtracks that I had pre-ordered and then cancelled). I did get the Final Dossier, for the sake of good old times, but it has been sitting on a shelf ever since, and I have no desire to read it right now, hopefully one day I might go for it. I did read a few of the book spoilers here on the forum willingly. If it had been more expensive than it was, I probably would not have bought it. I have not been following any TP podcasts or TP web sites either, it has truly been as dead as a doornail since it had ended. So at this point I am not planning on watching the originals (TP1+2, FWWM) any time soon, but I am hoping that, with the passage of time, I might get the desire for it. The reason being is that I am still, as Gabriel earlier said it, "sore from the whole experience". So hopefully, I will go for the earlier material some time in the future, but I am simply not contemplating it as I write. As far as the original music, I did listen to Dark Mood Woods occasionally, it seems as the only thus unspoiled moment for me.

What about the return? Looking back at it, I stand by my original words in the thread, but would summarize that it suffers from two flaws. First, the story is bad and disconnected, and I can live with it. People try and fail. Nothing wrong with it. Aqwell had an excellent post on how the whole Mr. C/Judy/Mother story is full of holes and contradictions, and I have not yet seen that refuted by anybody. And let us not go into the Sarah Palmer retcon again. The bigger and more serious problem for me was that this glorious opportunity was wasted on trying to deliberately antagonize me, the viewer, with all that Dougie nonsense. People who do not like this thread point to it as being vitriolic, but the point is that this was how we saw this show, this act of taking Dale Cooper and serving us a brain-dead plant fumbling on the screen for 80% of time, teasing us with his imminent return (25 years later!), was actually what was vile, vicious, and nasty. So what do they do with the DVD release? They put Coop and Mr. C on it, you open it up and get Dougie. Touché! Keep rubbing it in! Is Richard on the back flip by any chance? What a joke.

The thread is merely the mirror of the show, a fairly accurate one to this certain subset of the original fandom. We were basically thrown all that digital garmonbozia into our faces. Was the show all bad? No, of course not! There is about 30 minutes to an hour that is worth it. But that is the point: if you are making a mouse-trap, you need to leave some cheese in it, otherwise no mouse will pay any attention and get caught. And once it gets caught you can serve it all that nonsense about not being soft where it matters, cassocks and Cossacks, people smoking in silence for minutes, floor-sweeping, eight-minute silent ride in the finale(!), all the musical bands that you like, and who knows what other atrocity that I have luckily and graciously forgotten already.

Was it worth it? Is there anything good that I could take out of it? Luckily yes. If it were not for TR, I do not think I'd have the chance to get the signet owl cave ring, and I will be getting me one. It is ironic that it is the most expensive thing associated with the return, but I have no problem shelling money on it. Why? Because I saw real quality in it, a dedication of hard, manual labor and love, something that I did not see much of in the Return. So, yes, it was worth it for this alone, while I would not watch TR again even if one paid me to do it. And finally, when I stumble into links to some L|F interviews, I no longer go read them. I am genuinely not interested anymore, that ship has sailed.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:31 am

boske wrote: Was the show all bad? No, of course not! There is about 30 minutes to an hour that is worth it. But that is the point: if you are making a mouse-trap, you need to leave some cheese in it, otherwise no mouse will pay any attention and get caught. And once it gets caught you can serve it all that nonsense about not being soft where it matters, cassocks and Cossacks, people smoking in silence for minutes, floor-sweeping, eight-minute silent ride in the finale(!), all the musical bands that you like, and who knows what other atrocity that I have luckily and graciously forgotten already.


Interesting to hear your perspective Boske.

But look what your wrote above. Then think about 2001: A Space Odyssey and the extreme reactions it provoked upon it's initial release. One of the chief accusations was the minutes upon minutes of nothing happening except spaceships floating while classical music (Blue Danube) played in the background. These types of art do frustrate many viewers, but I don't think it's fair to say they are thrown in there for the sake of making viewers mad, They are put in there by the artist to evoke certain moods or feelings. It works for some people, doesn't work for others.

I think the eight minute silent ride at the end is brilliant (though I was extremely frustrated on the initial watch because I knew I would never see Red again.) It builds a tension and a mood, that gives the final walk up to the Palmer House and Laura's scream more impact than it otherwise would have.

And at the end of the day, these kind of slowed down sequences are nothing new with Lynch-directed Twin Peaks: the old waiter shuffling back while Dale lies wounded on the floor, Coop and Truman taking eternity to try and adjust a chair near Ronette's hospital bed, Nadine and Ed hanging out at Norma's diner, talking about a lot of nothing while the audience anxiously awaits the Laura Palmer reveal, and yes, Del Mibbler shuffling across the bank floor, taking an eternity to get to a lockbox. (For the record in my opinion, the most frustrating scene of The Return upon initial viewing was not any of the ones you mentioned but was actually the scene where Candy gores down to the casino floor to get Anthony.)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:12 am

Kilmoore wrote:This information about their resources being limited kinda makes me feel better about the show. I mean, it's crap, and they should have sized it down according to resources available, but still. The slowness, the filler scenes, the music videos, the editing mistakes, poorly constructed characters, pointless stories... They should have aimed for something they could achieve with the budget they had, and over-extended themselves. They tried to make a too ambitious show. I can kind of sympathize with that.


I think anyone who disliked the new show would have disliked any version of it that L/F delivered, regardless of budget. There are inevitable compromises in any production (as SFX guru Pierre Buffin noted in an excellent interview, DKL demanded waves in the “mauve world” sequence of a size that was literally impossible to depict onscreen even on an infinite budget), but this is the show L/F wanted it to be. It’s certainly not as simple as “big ideas, little budget”....DKL walked away from the show precisely so that he could renegotiate the budget, and decided to do the show for the amount agreed upon. He is certainly no stranger to working with limited resources (arguably his major failure was the one project where he actually had a substantial budget). And certain elements of the show were deliberately primitive-looking (referring again to the Buffin interview, he notes that DKL took certain effects like the real Dougie’s disintegration away from the professional SFX company and did them himself because he wanted the effect to look more 2D). So while he certainly would have preferred a larger budget — what filmmaker wouldn’t? — I don’t think that’s why the show didn’t work for you.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:36 am

mtwentz wrote:Hey everybody, take a step back, take a deep breath...we're all friends here and we'd probably go out for suds together and have a few laughs despite our differences of opinion on The Return.


Aye! I’ll drink to that!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Aqwell » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:04 am

mtwentz wrote:These types of art do frustrate many viewers, but I don't think it's fair to say they are thrown in there for the sake of making viewers mad, They are put in there by the artist to evoke certain moods or feelings. It works for some people, doesn't work for others.
With a solid storyline, good characters this kind of long running silent scenes would work better. Otherwise it feels like a big waste of time and opportunities. It's also a matter of dosage, less is more as the proverb says. I think Lynch wanted to tease the audience with these scenes, like a running gag, not make us mad. But the overall effect is annoying... but less annoying than the Road House endings. That's a pity because there were great scenes and songs in this place in the original TP.
The issue with these long silent scenes is that it feels like a false good idea turning into a cheap trick all along the show. There are not many of them, but then we have also the long talking scenes (Ben & Frank Truman for example). A good director should know when to cut to make a scene work. Telling a story is not the same job as painting a canvas, you can't fool the viewers as easily as you can with colored spatters. Well, obviously I'm wrong about that, he can and he did... :mrgreen:
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:52 am

2001 had state of the art effects and those long sequences support the idea of space and time in space.

I don’t doubt TR was trying to actually accomplish something- like, on purpose- with time-wasting minimalism (or just minimalism eg The Turin Horse or anything Bergman) It just wasn’t that effective, whatever it was, because plenty of us didn’t feel it, so though this complaint could come down to personal taste, it could come down to poor execution, too.


Senor Droolcup and Dell Mibbler’s walks need no reminder- those had us on the edge of our seats. The scenes had tension because there was momentum. Straight Story has the same steady momentum.

The cheese metaphor works for sure. 2001- chez for days, snap snap. TR- no chez, no snap.

While the floor sweeping was amusing to me as a music video, I wouldn’t call it remotely on par with the majesty of 2001 and I’d never say 2001 thinks its more interesting than it is (Jacoby’s shovels) or funnier than it is (Candy being a moron) or anxious than it is (driving.) TR lives in a glass house and should not throw stones at season 2.
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