Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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boske
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:36 am

Floor sweeping scene would make for a great computer screensaver, and that's about it. Senor Droolcup was quite interesting though: he represented a supernatural force (he did show up in the lodge ultimately), that moved at its own pace and had its own concerns which need not have aligned with Cooper's (or any human in general). That's what I got out of the whole scene. As the Giant said "it does not matter who I am but where you have gone". Now that set quite a mood. Having Dougie slam into doors or getting hit by a soft-ball is, on the contrary, quite a mood killer.

I noticed an interesting thing a few months ago, after the Return, as I started watching some movies I had on DVD. I could not believe how good they looked, how vivid those colors were, how smoothly everything flew, how enjoyable they all were, it was like a revelation. I should rewatch 2001 soon now, @mtwentz thanks for bringing that masterpiece up.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:30 pm

LateReg wrote:
Audrey Horne wrote:Maybe if Coooer and Mr. C were in the end the same person all the time, legitimate split halves then we’d have something to latch onto and apply to our own lives.

I will break down the main disappointment though with the Return (for me) to the lack of exploration of doppelgängers and not being responsible for your own actions... what?!! And that your going to have a Twin Peaks reunion and not even have one scene with Cooper and Audrey together?! (Yet you’ll still plan that one raped the other, had a child blah, blah, blah.).


Although there wasn't a scene where Cooper literally has to accept his doppelganger's actions as his own, I do believe the entire thing was a dissection of Cooper's personality/being, and therefore I believe it is implied that Cooper and Mr. C were the same person all along. That's what the finale is about, where we see yet another version of Cooper (Richard?), who seems like, at the very least, a total integration of Mr C and the Cooper we know and love. That is Cooper accepting that dark side of himself, and finally allowing himself to be complete rather than the impossible ideal of the original series.

You had also said that you don't know where to begin with the themes, and I just wanted to reiterate that for me I've never seen something so thematically rich, in so many directions at once, that all intertwine to layer perfectly on top of one another. For me, that's where this show succeeds, when one realizes that the surface doesn't contain the actual narrative, but that the narrative is basically a non-narrative that functions as a container for themes and ideas and rhymes and variations. That's how I enjoyed it, and why things like Mr. C's journey doesn't bother me, because I appreciate the irony of a man involved in a single-minded pursuit that ironically leads to his own downfall. And why purposefully dissatisfying plot developments (such as green glove defeating evil) leave me intellectually satisfied, etc., despite wanting certain things to play out differently...which, I think, is exactly the point and yet another layer to this thing. It really interacts with its audience in ways I don't think I've seen before.


That’s wonderful, and I mean that. If someone likes a piece of art and it speaks to them, I’m not going to say why it shouldn’t. And I love your points. That’s interesting. But ...of course there’s a but, for me I need more of an anchor... even if they blow it up in the end to make us reconstruct in a new context what we’ve seen previously. I think I needed more payoffs along the way with the routines and puzzles in the reality to then make the surreal more potent. And things like Cole and Albert discovering Cooper is another, or Tammy discovering it via fingerprints is exciting.... but then it isn’t adding anything that the audience doesn’t already know... or even a payoff to what they do with this information. So those are the type of things I mean on simple story structure... that when tight as a drum gives even more of a chance to cut loose into how it’s directed.

Reindeer, I don’t think that’s true that we’d be disappointed in whatever Lynch and Frost gave us. I was fully on board.

Still loving these discussions though!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:09 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:Reindeer, I don’t think that’s true that we’d be disappointed in whatever Lynch and Frost gave us. I was fully on board.

Still loving these discussions though!


Sorry, I think I expressed myself imprecisely. I was responding specifically to Kilmore’s post about how the show’s perceived flaws might be partially put down to budgetary constraints. What I was trying to say is, this season represents L/F’s vision of TP as of 2017, albeit imperfectly realized (as all artistic works are, to a greater or lesser degree). I don’t believe that a larger budget alone would have led to a version of the show that would have won any more converts. This is the show they wanted to make, and no amount of money would have fundamentally altered that. So if you didn’t like this version, you probably also wouldn’t like the theoretical version made with double the budget. That’s all I meant.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:15 pm

boske wrote:People who do not like this thread point to it as being vitriolic, but the point is that this was how we saw this show, this act of taking Dale Cooper and serving us a brain-dead plant fumbling on the screen for 80% of time, teasing us with his imminent return (25 years later!), was actually what was vile, vicious, and nasty. So what do they do with the DVD release? They put Coop and Mr. C on it, you open it up and get Dougie. Touché! Keep rubbing it in! Is Richard on the back flip by any chance? What a joke


I certainly can understand the dislike/frustration for Dougie, but it seems a little silly to take it personally that he appears on the home video packaging. He was probably the most prominent “character” in the season; why WOULDN’T he be on there?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:48 pm

Regarding what boske said a few posts ago, I feel the opposite way. Even though I was at first impatient with Dougie, I grew to like him. It is deliberately antagonizing the audience and playing with our expectations (as is making us take notice of the names Richard and Linda among other things), but I can appreciate what they were trying to do and enjoyed most of the absurdism. What still has me sore about the show were those plot holes and inconsistencies, and the fact that a lot of stuff that could have been interesting wasn't capitalized upon (perhaps the Woodsmen as a main villain, for example). You can have all the absurdist stuff of Dougie and related things while still putting together some satisfying arcs and just doing basic follow-up, fleshing out, and characterization/character introspection. I just think it's flat-out poor work in some of the more traditional and plot-driven stuff, poorly thought through. A rewatch could hypothetically allow one to view these plot deficiencies and disconnects with more charity, but who knows? Maybe this is the most "take the good with the bad" work I have ever encountered.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:27 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
boske wrote:People who do not like this thread point to it as being vitriolic, but the point is that this was how we saw this show, this act of taking Dale Cooper and serving us a brain-dead plant fumbling on the screen for 80% of time, teasing us with his imminent return (25 years later!), was actually what was vile, vicious, and nasty. So what do they do with the DVD release? They put Coop and Mr. C on it, you open it up and get Dougie. Touché! Keep rubbing it in! Is Richard on the back flip by any chance? What a joke


I certainly can understand the dislike/frustration for Dougie, but it seems a little silly to take it personally that he appears on the home video packaging. He was probably the most prominent “character” in the season; why WOULDN’T he be on there?


No, I did not take it personally (not sure where you got that from, it is just a show after all). Neither should L&F take any criticism personally either (if they were to read it on these boards). You missed my point though: Dougie should have been on the DVD box itself as the "probably most prominent character", as you said it :). The way it is printed/presented right now simply repeats the shtick that they pulled on us: on the outside you have Cooper and his Doppelganger, lodge floor and the curtains, and yet you get Dougie. That is my gripe here. What they originally advertised had very little with what they delivered.

Nice talking to you as always Mr. Reindeer!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:12 am

boske wrote:
No, I did not take it personally (not sure where you got that from, it is just a show after all). Neither should L&F take any criticism personally either (if they were to read it on these boards). You missed my point though: Dougie should have been on the DVD box itself as the "probably most prominent character", as you said it :). The way it is printed/presented right now simply repeats the shtick that they pulled on us: on the outside you have Cooper and his Doppelganger, lodge floor and the curtains, and yet you get Dougie. That is my gripe here. What they originally advertised had very little with what they delivered.

Nice talking to you as always Mr. Reindeer!


What a brilliant post! You've been missed around these parts, Boske. :)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:56 am

Agent Earle wrote:What a brilliant post! You've been missed around these parts, Boske. :)

Thank you Agent Earle, it is nice to see familiar people around, very humbled by your reply. :oops:

Not as a response to you, but to some folks earlier in the thread, apropos Dougie: I do not hate Dougie, and Kyle did a great job acting there. As much as I do not think about the show that much and have been forgetting about it steadily ever since, the piano restaurant scene ended up as my favorite, Kyle was simply stellar in it. What they did with Dougie though overall is a failure. Instead of showing us some genuine struggle and emotions, they stretched his story (extremely) disproportionately, and merely used him as a teasing vehicle. While I can see his tears when looking at Sonny Jim showing some of that emotional struggle once, and very briefly with no further development, what did his gobbling of cherry pies and slurping of coffee achieve if not a jab at the old "coffee and cherry pie fans". And yet, that was the image they used to advertise the new season. Were there not these ads with owls, coffee, and cherry pie in the Washington State and L.A.?

The moment we learned out what it was that woke Dougie up was as close to the admission as one could get that we are being trolled. Obviously, we need not all agree on this, I do not have a problem that people like the show for what I do not and so on. I do not hate the Return, I am extremely disappointed. We should have gotten a masterpiece, not a dud.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:10 am

boske wrote:No, I did not take it personally (not sure where you got that from, it is just a show after all). Neither should L&F take any criticism personally either (if they were to read it on these boards). You missed my point though: Dougie should have been on the DVD box itself as the "probably most prominent character", as you said it :). The way it is printed/presented right now simply repeats the shtick that they pulled on us: on the outside you have Cooper and his Doppelganger, lodge floor and the curtains, and yet you get Dougie. That is my gripe here. What they originally advertised had very little with what they delivered.

Nice talking to you as always Mr. Reindeer!


You as well! In regards to “taking it personally,” I guess I took your comment “keep rubbing it in” as implying some level of personal affrontery. Sorry for imputing emotions to you. Now that I properly understand your position vis a vis the packaging, I definitely agree that it is the perfect embodiment of the season, “Trojan horse”-ing Dougie into our homes.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:27 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
boske wrote:No, I did not take it personally (not sure where you got that from, it is just a show after all). Neither should L&F take any criticism personally either (if they were to read it on these boards). You missed my point though: Dougie should have been on the DVD box itself as the "probably most prominent character", as you said it :). The way it is printed/presented right now simply repeats the shtick that they pulled on us: on the outside you have Cooper and his Doppelganger, lodge floor and the curtains, and yet you get Dougie. That is my gripe here. What they originally advertised had very little with what they delivered.

Nice talking to you as always Mr. Reindeer!


You as well! In regards to “taking it personally,” I guess I took your comment “keep rubbing it in” as implying some level of personal affrontery. Sorry for imputing emotions to you. Now that I properly understand your position vis a vis the packaging, I definitely agree that it is the perfect embodiment of the season, “Trojan horse”-ing Dougie into our homes.

Thanks Mr. Reindeer! As usual, you are a class act, there is no need to apologize for anything, I did not take your statement in a way that would ever warrant something like that here. It the end, we are all fans of this show and we can certainly discuss it in a civilized manner even though we may disagree on certain aspects of a part of it. :-) I mean, we both like S1+2 and FWWM, and if S3 is a part of it, it is still small piece of the overall puzzle.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:14 am

boske wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:What a brilliant post! You've been missed around these parts, Boske. :)

Thank you Agent Earle, it is nice to see familiar people around, very humbled by your reply. :oops:

Not as a response to you, but to some folks earlier in the thread, apropos Dougie: I do not hate Dougie, and Kyle did a great job acting there. As much as I do not think about the show that much and have been forgetting about it steadily ever since, the piano restaurant scene ended up as my favorite, Kyle was simply stellar in it. What they did with Dougie though overall is a failure. Instead of showing us some genuine struggle and emotions, they stretched his story (extremely) disproportionately, and merely used him as a teasing vehicle. While I can see his tears when looking at Sonny Jim showing some of that emotional struggle once, and very briefly with no further development, what did his gobbling of cherry pies and slurping of coffee achieve if not a jab at the old "coffee and cherry pie fans". And yet, that was the image they used to advertise the new season. Were there not these ads with owls, coffee, and cherry pie in the Washington State and L.A.?

The moment we learned out what it was that woke Dougie up was as close to the admission as one could get that we are being trolled. Obviously, we need not all agree on this, I do not have a problem that people like the show for what I do not and so on. I do not hate the Return, I am extremely disappointed. We should have gotten a masterpiece, not a dud.


In brief, I view Dougie's struggle differently from you. Cooper is trapped inside Dougie, watching the world and his life and the life he could have had pass by. That's the struggle, and an appropriate one for someone who has been trapped in the lodge for 25 years. And I think it's about the components of identity, how Cooper is who he is and likes what he likes (Lynch said as much in an early interview), and that some things are just embedded in a person and there's joy in rediscovering them, such as a taste for certain foods, as well as, more deeply, an innate goodness, positively affecting all of those around you even when you're practically comatose. It's about how some men long for more and are capable of more, how he can sleepwalk through his 9 to 5 and easily solve the day's problems. And the cherry pie ads used to promote the show and the Trojan horse of the packaging are - as you know but dislike - a huge part of the point. I want those good old days back, I feel like I can have them back...but can I? So that's the struggle I see even without much in the way of standard plot progression.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:24 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:What I was trying to say is, this season represents L/F’s vision of TP as of 2017, albeit imperfectly realized (as all artistic works are, to a greater or lesser degree). I don’t believe that a larger budget alone would have led to a version of the show that would have won any more converts.

Maybe it is so. But I'd think there is a chance that when it came down to editing, Lynch found that he didn't have enough footage to make, say the Steve and Becky storyline have any purpose or emotion in it, but it was too late. So he had to stretch out all that he could, which led to Dougie taking over most of the show.

This is pure speculation, of course, but ask the "true" fans: All theories are equal. This one is mine.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:41 am

Kilmoore wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:What I was trying to say is, this season represents L/F’s vision of TP as of 2017, albeit imperfectly realized (as all artistic works are, to a greater or lesser degree). I don’t believe that a larger budget alone would have led to a version of the show that would have won any more converts.

Maybe it is so. But I'd think there is a chance that when it came down to editing, Lynch found that he didn't have enough footage to make, say the Steve and Becky storyline have any purpose or emotion in it, but it was too late. So he had to stretch out all that he could, which led to Dougie taking over most of the show.

This is pure speculation, of course, but ask the "true" fans: All theories are equal. This one is mine.


Fair enough! Threre are definitely some storylines that feel like DKL simply ran out of time/money, like the end of Monty Python & the Holy Grail (Steven & Becky, Red). And I do think the lower budget led to the “sketch show” feel of certain portions of the show (i.e., characters like Jacoby, Ben, even Audrey and Norma being largely stagebound and obviously shooting all their scenes at once). But I think Dougie would have been central to L/F’s vision in any version of the show they made, and that the deliberate pacing was a very conscious stylistic choice, not the result of stretching the show (DKL could have easily delivered a shorter product; he was in the unique position of having no commitment in terms of episode number).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:29 am

LateReg wrote:In brief, I view Dougie's struggle differently from you.

Yeah, nothing wrong with that.

LateReg wrote:Cooper is trapped inside Dougie, watching the world and his life and the life he could have had pass by. That's the struggle, and an appropriate one for someone who has been trapped in the lodge for 25 years. And I think it's about the components of identity, how Cooper is who he is and likes what he likes (Lynch said as much in an early interview), and that some things are just embedded in a person and there's joy in rediscovering them, such as a taste for certain foods, as well as, more deeply, an innate goodness, positively affecting all of those around you even when you're practically comatose. It's about how some men long for more and are capable of more, how he can sleepwalk through his 9 to 5 and easily solve the day's problems.

We do not know how much of Cooper is there at all. Did Mr. C acquire all of Cooper psychology or just some negative parts/traits and so on? So what remained there, just some Cooper's essential traits? I mean, we obviously have two physical Cooper's (or so it seems), so which one got what part of the once complete psyche, they are split now. It is a pity we never ventured into this area, it is another missed opportunity. As is their eventual reunion, reconciliation, or sublimation. Why have that when we can listen to Gordon Cole and what he thinks is important for us to know about his private parts and wine tastes.

As a rule of thumb, I now take what Lynch says "cum grano salis". The same with Frost. At one point Frost said he had called Lynch and said that 25 year anniversary of the finale had been approaching and that it'd be nice to revisit it. And yet in another interview he does not mention it at all, and says that they simply reconvened and then figured out that it was almost 25 years after, treating it as a rather cool coincidence. If you collate their interviews you are certain to find more stuff that does not add up.

To me (and we can disagree here too), DougieCoop was more of a toddler. My memory is getting vague now, but did he not reach for that cop's badge at the statue, and also doctor's stethoscope during the much delayed check-up? Both this are instinctive reflexes indicative of toddlers. Still, there is no explanation how an incapacitated Dougie, who relies on higher powers for any formative activity, can tackle a veteran criminal (who then later got to trip himself :lol:), and is then back to square one not being able to catch a softball or get out of the elevator, let alone a car. These things do not add up for me, they are simply made up on the fly without any consideration. Trying to make some of it or instill some sense into it, or find a rule or plan to it is futile, there is none. There is no logic to it.

LateReg wrote:And the cherry pie ads used to promote the show and the Trojan horse of the packaging are - as you know but dislike - a huge part of the point. I want those good old days back, I feel like I can have them back...but can I? So that's the struggle I see even without much in the way of standard plot progression.

There was no cherry pie in FWWM and it was just fine. I will go on a line and state it here: FWWM could have worked without Cooper. And so could 95% of the Return, we could have had a show without `coffee and cherry pie`, but with a meaningful script and plot. I bet if the Return had 28 parts that we'd be stuck with Dougie until part 26 though.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:26 pm

boske wrote:
LateReg wrote:Cooper is trapped inside Dougie, watching the world and his life and the life he could have had pass by. That's the struggle, and an appropriate one for someone who has been trapped in the lodge for 25 years. And I think it's about the components of identity, how Cooper is who he is and likes what he likes (Lynch said as much in an early interview), and that some things are just embedded in a person and there's joy in rediscovering them, such as a taste for certain foods, as well as, more deeply, an innate goodness, positively affecting all of those around you even when you're practically comatose. It's about how some men long for more and are capable of more, how he can sleepwalk through his 9 to 5 and easily solve the day's problems.

We do not know how much of Cooper is there at all. Did Mr. C acquire all of Cooper psychology or just some negative parts/traits and so on? So what remained there, just some Cooper's essential traits? I mean, we obviously have two physical Cooper's (or so it seems), so which one got what part of the once complete psyche, they are split now. It is a pity we never ventured into this area, it is another missed opportunity. As is their eventual reunion, reconciliation, or sublimation. Why have that when we can listen to Gordon Cole and what he thinks is important for us to know about his private parts and wine tastes.

As a rule of thumb, I now take what Lynch says "cum grano salis". The same with Frost. At one point Frost said he had called Lynch and said that 25 year anniversary of the finale had been approaching and that it'd be nice to revisit it. And yet in another interview he does not mention it at all, and says that they simply reconvened and then figured out that it was almost 25 years after, treating it as a rather cool coincidence. If you collate their interviews you are certain to find more stuff that does not add up.

To me (and we can disagree here too), DougieCoop was more of a toddler. My memory is getting vague now, but did he not reach for that cop's badge at the statue, and also doctor's stethoscope during the much delayed check-up? Both this are instinctive reflexes indicative of toddlers. Still, there is no explanation how an incapacitated Dougie, who relies on higher powers for any formative activity, can tackle a veteran criminal (who then later got to trip himself :lol:), and is then back to square one not being able to catch a softball or get out of the elevator, let alone a car. These things do not add up for me, they are simply made up on the fly without any consideration. Trying to make some of it or instill some sense into it, or find a rule or plan to it is futile, there is none. There is no logic to it.


Judging by the fact that Cooper just wakes up after his short coma, and was fully aware of everything that was going on, I'd say it's pretty obvious that all of Cooper was there, and just trapped. What we see when he takes down Ike, for example, is a major component of himself rising to the surface. I don't need to know the exact split of who inherited what regarding Cooper vs. Doppelcoop, but I would certainly say that the Cooper we know and love from the original series was trapped inside Dougie the whole time. That strikes me as very much the idea there. So if you want to boil it down to essential traits, that could be right, but I think of it as the essential traits simply coming to the fore from time to time as an exploration of the major components that make up Cooper, things that you can't take away.

I have no argument with you thinking of Dougie as a toddler, and I can even agree with that. However, he's a toddler with Dale Cooper trapped inside of him, and I think that's very clear, and it very much adds up to me. No, it's not the gradual progression I expected and continued to hope for, but it makes sense to me. (It also, much to the chagrin of many, ties into the ideas of interacting with the audience, subverting expectations, etc., all of which I think are very important to embrace, as well as the idea that Cooper is simply Cooper, helplessly trapped, and therefore incapable of the gradual progression we all hoped for from week to week.) And as far as what Lynch said in that interview I referenced, there's no reason to doubt him on that one aspect. It was spoken very plainly, without a prompt, as one of the aspects of the new show Lynch wanted to explore before the show even started airing. In fact, while Lynch remained his cagey self for most interviews, I would say that he let slip out far more than I'd seen him let slip in recent years, here or there in the interviews.

David Lynch playing Gordon Cole remains a very important piece of all this. It's too bad it had to rub so many of you the wrong way. I love the layers and all it contributes and ties together.

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