Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

pinballmars
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby pinballmars » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:57 am

I think that Lynch and Frost felt that Cooper's return to Earth shouldn't be easy. Thus, Dougie.

Also, the David Bowie scene in FWWM was a clear jumping-off point. When Cooper does show up in Twin Peaks, it's his Phillip Jefferies, quick appearance, "We live inside a dream" moment. We don't learn much about where Jefferies came from before that scene or where he went after that scene (yes, I know the brief outtakes in "The Missing Pieces"), but we do get that story with Cooper. Yes, Cooper waking up in the hospital bed was very satisfying, but I think the scene in the sheriff's station is what Lynch and Frost were really building up toward. Cooper now travels between worlds. All of the things that Jefferies was babbling about in the FBI office way back, Cooper now understands. He can't hang out in Twin Peaks and get pie at the Double RR. He's got work to do.

I'm not going to argue personal taste. If you didn't like it, that's fine, but I found all of that thrilling and truly unpredictable.
User avatar
boske
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:45 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:
boske wrote:. Dougie could have been there for a few episodes, but what transpired for me was rather nasty. What point where they trying to prove?.


I think two of the points that Dougie makes are:
1) How badly the world needs a Dougie (honest, without much entitlement, etc.)
2) How badly TP needs a fully capable Coop.

True, the world needs more honest, decent, simple, humble people, but is Dougie any of that? Dougie is a plant. A plant needs watering, sunshine, kind words, none of it is too demanding or in need of entitlement. What did Dougie do? Nothing really but (a) parrot back what was said in his direction, and (b) react instinctively to Phillip Gerard, where Phillip's motives are not entirely clear. Yes, whatever remained of Cooper may well be pure goodness, but did not play any active role, it was buried deep and laid dormant. It could be argued that this innate goodness still made people around him better, but did it really? Anthony cracked under pressure, Mullins was a nice guy already, he got more help from Jade, I do not see how he made her a better person. Likewise for his remaining coworkers. Were two mob brothers (forgot their last name) better people, or did they simply like him for getting them that big fat check?
User avatar
yaxomoxay
Posts: 749
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 4:50 pm

Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:03 pm

boske wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
boske wrote:. Dougie could have been there for a few episodes, but what transpired for me was rather nasty. What point where they trying to prove?.


I think two of the points that Dougie makes are:
1) How badly the world needs a Dougie (honest, without much entitlement, etc.)
2) How badly TP needs a fully capable Coop.

True, the world needs more honest, decent, simple, humble people, but is Dougie any of that? Dougie is a plant. A plant needs watering, sunshine, kind words, none of it is too demanding or in need of entitlement. What did Dougie do? Nothing really but (a) parrot back what was said in his direction, and (b) react instinctively to Phillip Gerard, where Phillip's motives are not entirely clear. Yes, whatever remained of Cooper may well be pure goodness, but did not play any active role, it was buried deep and laid dormant. It could be argued that this innate goodness still made people around him better, but did it really? Anthony cracked under pressure, Mullins was a nice guy already, he got more help from Jade, I do not see how he made her a better person. Likewise for his remaining coworkers. Were two mob brothers (forgot their last name) better people, or did they simply like him for getting them that big fat check?


I asked myself the same question. My answer, probably unsatisfactory, is that Dougie/Coop is NOT the active part that brings a certain level of goodness in people. Goodness is within the person itself. Dougie-Coop simply highlights something that triggers the individual. Such individual then makes the choice, or is overwhelmed so much by such trigger that he or she can’t resist. Obviously there are different degrees - as you and Cooper both point out Mullins is already a “decent man”. He did not really need Dougie to become good. The Mitchum brothers became good the moment honesty hit them. They deserved every penny of that check.
Dougie is kinda the anti-Cooper, meant as his opposite yet still good. When Coop entered TP, a broken community, for the first time he brought goodness with him. How? By imparting orders, etc. In other words, Original Series Cooper handed out his own goodness, and love. Dougie does the opposite. He doesn’t hand out anything, he get the individual to see the reality of facts, and this is a freeing experience for them.
From a certain point of view, the town of Twin Peaks would’ve been much better off if Dougie passed by. I wonder how a Dougie meets Leo Johnson (before he becomes his own Dougie) scene would like.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
User avatar
boske
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:20 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:
boske wrote:True, the world needs more honest, decent, simple, humble people, but is Dougie any of that? Dougie is a plant. A plant needs watering, sunshine, kind words, none of it is too demanding or in need of entitlement. What did Dougie do? Nothing really but (a) parrot back what was said in his direction, and (b) react instinctively to Phillip Gerard, where Phillip's motives are not entirely clear. Yes, whatever remained of Cooper may well be pure goodness, but did not play any active role, it was buried deep and laid dormant. It could be argued that this innate goodness still made people around him better, but did it really? Anthony cracked under pressure, Mullins was a nice guy already, he got more help from Jade, I do not see how he made her a better person. Likewise for his remaining coworkers. Were two mob brothers (forgot their last name) better people, or did they simply like him for getting them that big fat check?

I asked myself the same question. My answer, probably unsatisfactory, is that Dougie/Coop is NOT the active part that brings a certain level of goodness in people. Goodness is within the person itself. Dougie-Coop simply highlights something that triggers the individual. Such individual then makes the choice, or is overwhelmed so much by such trigger that he or she can’t resist. Obviously there are different degrees - as you and Cooper both point out Mullins is already a “decent man”. He did not really need Dougie to become good. The Mitchum brothers became good the moment honesty hit them. They deserved every penny of that check.

Yeah, I agree on that something that triggers within and overwhelms some people, that is a vibe that one could get out of it.

yaxomoxay wrote:Dougie is kinda the anti-Cooper, meant as his opposite yet still good. When Coop entered TP, a broken community, for the first time he brought goodness with him. How? By imparting orders, etc. In other words, Original Series Cooper handed out his own goodness, and love. Dougie does the opposite. He doesn’t hand out anything, he get the individual to see the reality of facts, and this is a freeing experience for them.
From a certain point of view, the town of Twin Peaks would’ve been much better off if Dougie passed by. I wonder how a Dougie meets Leo Johnson (before he becomes his own Dougie) scene would like.

Leo starts crying, runs to Shelly, says he does not deserve her, start doing laundry himself, and then takes her out for dinner? :-)

Too bad Mitchums (thanks for that info, I already forgot their last name) are in Vegas. Put them in TP in charge of a Ghostwood development of sorts and maybe we could have even seen how Dougie resonated with townsfolk.
User avatar
yaxomoxay
Posts: 749
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 4:50 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:39 am

boske wrote:Yeah, I agree on that something that triggers within and overwhelms some people, that is a vibe that one could get out of it.


That’s my guess (or my personal interpretation if you will). Regular Cooper “imposed” his goodness to everyone. Cooper_Dougie just triggers it. A message of hope, at least that’s how I want to read it :)

yaxomoxay wrote:Leo starts crying, runs to Shelly, says he does not deserve her, start doing laundry himself, and then takes her out for dinner? :-)


Leo doing laundry?!?! Now that’s a major retcon that not even Laura’s “deleted” death could compare to! I can already envision Ben switching to the Union too. All is good, as long as Jerry doesn’t show up with sandwiches from Subway...

Too bad Mitchums (thanks for that info, I already forgot their last name) are in Vegas. Put them in TP in charge of a Ghostwood development of sorts and maybe we could have even seen how Dougie resonated with townsfolk.


Well, Cooper brings them to TP. I am pretty sure that in an alternate universe (“TP Season 5: The return of the Return of those gone after they returned yet never left”) they transformed TP from a small town to a metropolis!
User avatar
Gabriel
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:53 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:10 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:Well, Cooper brings them to TP. I am pretty sure that in an alternate universe (“TP Season 5: The return of the Return of those gone after they returned yet never left”) they transformed TP from a small town to a metropolis!

The question is, in the rewritten timeline, did the mill ever get torched? Did Josie die? Did the bank get blown up? Did Audrey get pregnant? Did the Cooper investigation run for long beyond ‘Who beat up Ronette Pulaski?’ Did Donna discover her parentage? Did Windom Earle go to Twin Peaks? Did Blackie die, even?

An alt-Twin Peaks of a season five could effectively be a JJ Abrams-esque riff on the original show. The whole point of Twin Peaks was the definite death of Laura and how the town unravelled as a consequence. Maybe now, the Mitchums own the sawmill and vie with Ben Horne over Ghostwood.

If history is in the process of being rewritten as Tammy leaves, then who knows? If there is another season, curiously enough, it could lead to something closer to season one with Carrie/Laura Palmer’s return and her knowledge of the town’s underbelly leading to panic among the town’s establishment.
User avatar
waferwhitemilk
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:18 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby waferwhitemilk » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:09 pm

Gabriel wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:Well, Cooper brings them to TP. I am pretty sure that in an alternate universe (“TP Season 5: The return of the Return of those gone after they returned yet never left”) they transformed TP from a small town to a metropolis!

The question is, in the rewritten timeline, did the mill ever get torched? Did Josie die? Did the bank get blown up? Did Audrey get pregnant? Did the Cooper investigation run for long beyond ‘Who beat up Ronette Pulaski?’ Did Donna discover her parentage? Did Windom Earle go to Twin Peaks? Did Blackie die, even?

An alt-Twin Peaks of a season five could effectively be a JJ Abrams-esque riff on the original show. The whole point of Twin Peaks was the definite death of Laura and how the town unravelled as a consequence. Maybe now, the Mitchums own the sawmill and vie with Ben Horne over Ghostwood.

If history is in the process of being rewritten as Tammy leaves, then who knows? If there is another season, curiously enough, it could lead to something closer to season one with Carrie/Laura Palmer’s return and her knowledge of the town’s underbelly leading to panic among the town’s establishment.


wow this idea actually makes me superexcited for a new season! but yeh they'd def need some outside person(s) for that imo and great casting for a new bob, i'm thinking anderson cooper in denim
User avatar
laughingpinecone
Posts: 725
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:45 am
Location: D'ni
Contact:

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby laughingpinecone » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:28 pm

Something I don't usually see brought up, not even by DougieCoop supporters, is a protective instinct toward him. It was a big part of my experience and it doesn't sound too far from Lynch's occasional remarks (at least two separate occasions) that it'd be nice to have a Dougie to feed and take care of. He's Coop, being finally allowed to rest, in a place that feels both like a cocoon and an alien landscape. Coop peeled down like an onion and what's at the center is love and compassion and a passive connection to the universe that allows him to do the right thing at the right moment for one entire week in his life.
There's plenty of love and empathy for all the simpletons, all the Lucys and Andys and Candies. Why shouldn't the main character be painted with the same brush?
] The gathered are known by their faces of stone.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 2142
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:16 pm

laughingpinecone wrote:There's plenty of love and empathy for all the simpletons, all the Lucys and Andys and Candies. Why shouldn't the main character be painted with the same brush?


Huh. This is fascinating. L/F, when they work together, truly have a fascination with brain-dead simpletons who are meant to be portrayed as lovable innocents and who bring out the best in everyone they encounter. This applies to Betty, the lead character in On the Air, as well as Newt Newton, a main character in the unproduced One Saliva Bubble. (DKL also explored this theme prior to meeting Mark, in Ronnie Rocket.)
User avatar
yaxomoxay
Posts: 749
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 4:50 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:52 am

laughingpinecone wrote:Something I don't usually see brought up, not even by DougieCoop supporters, is a protective instinct toward him. It was a big part of my experience and it doesn't sound too far from Lynch's occasional remarks (at least two separate occasions) that it'd be nice to have a Dougie to feed and take care of. He's Coop, being finally allowed to rest, in a place that feels both like a cocoon and an alien landscape. Coop peeled down like an onion and what's at the center is love and compassion and a passive connection to the universe that allows him to do the right thing at the right moment for one entire week in his life.
There's plenty of love and empathy for all the simpletons, all the Lucys and Andys and Candies. Why shouldn't the main character be painted with the same brush?


I like this!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
LateReg
Posts: 735
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:23 pm

laughingpinecone wrote:Something I don't usually see brought up, not even by DougieCoop supporters, is a protective instinct toward him. It was a big part of my experience and it doesn't sound too far from Lynch's occasional remarks (at least two separate occasions) that it'd be nice to have a Dougie to feed and take care of. He's Coop, being finally allowed to rest, in a place that feels both like a cocoon and an alien landscape. Coop peeled down like an onion and what's at the center is love and compassion and a passive connection to the universe that allows him to do the right thing at the right moment for one entire week in his life.
There's plenty of love and empathy for all the simpletons, all the Lucys and Andys and Candies. Why shouldn't the main character be painted with the same brush?


Yes, I agree with that and felt that.
User avatar
boske
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:15 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:10 pm

This post from page 328 should be one those pinned to the thread, if it were possible, alongside some of the earlier posts from judasbooth and David Locke:

Aqwell wrote:Someone close to Lynch (like the co-creator of the damn thing) should have advised him at least about what NOT to do.
I'm thinking about the most terrible choices of the season :

- The red curtain icon floating above slot machines in Vegas, turning it into a magical money maker + the infamous "Helloooo-ooo-ooo"
- The cheap VFX (except episode 8, most of the CG's are ridiculously bad), fake gunshots, fake bullet wounds, glitches that fans take as easter eggs...)
- The Road House end scenes (or middle scene > episode 8 )
- Lynch sick obsession about vomit...
- The amazingly stupid idea about Laura created by a supernatural benevolent being and sent down to earth (nothing else can beat that)
- The 'famous' and ridiculous Audrey's Dance scene (imagine the same thing with Sheryl Lee : And now Laura Palmer and her famous Dead Girl Wrapped in Plastic !).
- The Marvel parody ending of episode 17 (Rubber Fist vs Dark BOBble)
- Most of the plotlines going nowhere
- All tthe Doogie Coop idiocy
- Gordon Cole explaining things ('When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk' or is it 'Show, don't tell'?)
- The X hours film concept (that works with StrangerThings, with TPTR that's just a bad joke)
- The long/boring/completely useless/silent scenes (hush... that's art... don't criticize the maestro...)
- The Fuck You ending (dream/time travel/parallel universe or is it reality/middle finger)
- ...

Especially its following part:
Aqwell wrote:I especially like the funny illogical plot holes like the murder of Ruth Davenport. She seems to have been killed by Mr C (a bullet in the eye, like Bill Hasting's wife) but have the infamous coordinates he desperately seeks written on her left arm. So who wrote them? The bearded men? Don't they work for BOB/Mr C? And why display her head alongside Major's Briggs body? What Mr C expected when entering the portal to the White Lodge? What was his masterplan? Did he have any? The same question could be asked to Lynch himself...

But of course it's Art, it's supposed to be that way...

I never read the scripts for Ronnie Rocker and One Saliva Bubble, but I do remember some posters being them up saying what we saw in the Return were basically rehashed ideas from these scripts. Dougie (whatever we may think of the concept) is a TP spin-off set in Las Vegas, and South Dakota, well who remembers Chip, Harvey, George the lawyer, and the Morgans.
User avatar
Joe McCluskey
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Joe McCluskey » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:27 pm

I just finished making a video that covers a wide-range of topics about TP:TR, including fan-perception of Lynch, Dougie Jones, issues with the finale & much more. Months ago, I made a couple of other videos on Lynch's self-indulgence and also Evil Cooper, so if you enjoyed those videos, you may like this one too. Here's a link for those interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHOvkQ9EO7U :)
User avatar
chromereflectsimage
Posts: 245
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:03 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby chromereflectsimage » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:42 pm

boske wrote:This post from page 328 should be one those pinned to the thread, if it were possible, alongside some of the earlier posts from judasbooth and David Locke:

Aqwell wrote:Someone close to Lynch (like the co-creator of the damn thing) should have advised him at least about what NOT to do.
I'm thinking about the most terrible choices of the season :

- The red curtain icon floating above slot machines in Vegas, turning it into a magical money maker + the infamous "Helloooo-ooo-ooo"
- The cheap VFX (except episode 8, most of the CG's are ridiculously bad), fake gunshots, fake bullet wounds, glitches that fans take as easter eggs...)
- The Road House end scenes (or middle scene > episode 8 )
- Lynch sick obsession about vomit...
- The amazingly stupid idea about Laura created by a supernatural benevolent being and sent down to earth (nothing else can beat that)
- The 'famous' and ridiculous Audrey's Dance scene (imagine the same thing with Sheryl Lee : And now Laura Palmer and her famous Dead Girl Wrapped in Plastic !).
- The Marvel parody ending of episode 17 (Rubber Fist vs Dark BOBble)
- Most of the plotlines going nowhere
- All tthe Doogie Coop idiocy
- Gordon Cole explaining things ('When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk' or is it 'Show, don't tell'?)
- The X hours film concept (that works with StrangerThings, with TPTR that's just a bad joke)
- The long/boring/completely useless/silent scenes (hush... that's art... don't criticize the maestro...)
- The Fuck You ending (dream/time travel/parallel universe or is it reality/middle finger)
- ...

Especially its following part:
Aqwell wrote:I especially like the funny illogical plot holes like the murder of Ruth Davenport. She seems to have been killed by Mr C (a bullet in the eye, like Bill Hasting's wife) but have the infamous coordinates he desperately seeks written on her left arm. So who wrote them? The bearded men? Don't they work for BOB/Mr C? And why display her head alongside Major's Briggs body? What Mr C expected when entering the portal to the White Lodge? What was his masterplan? Did he have any? The same question could be asked to Lynch himself...

But of course it's Art, it's supposed to be that way...

I never read the scripts for Ronnie Rocker and One Saliva Bubble, but I do remember some posters being them up saying what we saw in the Return were basically rehashed ideas from these scripts. Dougie (whatever we may think of the concept) is a TP spin-off set in Las Vegas, and South Dakota, well who remembers Chip, Harvey, George the lawyer, and the Morgans.

Minus being a musician, Dougie acts exactly like Ronnie Rocket. They both only speak to mimic the last word or two someone else says. Ronnie even turns into a gold pebble at the end.
User avatar
referendum
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:29 am

Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:39 pm


Minus being a musician, Dougie acts exactly like Ronnie Rocket. They both only speak to mimic the last word or two someone else says. Ronnie even turns into a gold pebble at the end.

the thing about that is that Ronnie Rocket was just one movie - the joke only had to keep going for a couple of hours. Dougie joke was kept going for 12 hours - that's 6 movies! Alot of time for it to starting wearing thin...
''let's not overthink this opportunity''

Return to “Season 3 (2017) The Return (Spoilers)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests