Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[mtwentz]

Minus being a musician, Dougie acts exactly like Ronnie Rocket. They both only speak to mimic the last word or two someone else says. Ronnie even turns into a gold pebble at the end.

the thing about that is that Ronnie Rocket was just one movie - the joke only had to keep going for a couple of hours. Dougie joke was kept going for 12 hours - that's 6 movies! Alot of time for it to starting wearing thin...

Screen time for Dougie was nowhere near 12 hours. Some episodes like 8, he did not appear at all. In episodes 12, 14 and 15 he is only in there for a few seconds.

[boske]

the thing about that is that Ronnie Rocket was just one movie - the joke only had to keep going for a couple of hours. Dougie joke was kept going for 12 hours - that's 6 movies! Alot of time for it to starting wearing thin...

Screen time for Dougie was nowhere near 12 hours. Some episodes like 8, he did not appear at all. In episodes 12, 14 and 15 he is only in there for a few seconds.

Yes. it is not that Dougie took 15 hours all by himself, but stretching that over 15 parts was what was the overkill. How much time did he just spend near the gunslinger statue though?

Minus being a musician, Dougie acts exactly like Ronnie Rocket. They both only speak to mimic the last word or two someone else says. Ronnie even turns into a gold pebble at the end.

Wow, imagine having the Roadhouse ending: "Ladies and gentlemen, Phil Oakey featuring Dougie Jones in Giorgio Moroder's `Together in Electric Dreams`!"

[Nighthawk]

The problem with "subverting expectations", a term that has been used as an argument by TP:TR apologists time and time again, is that there are different possible outcomes of doing it. Some are good and some not so good. The next big blockbuster movie could be filmed featuring a 10-second loop of a man in a clown costume falling down repeatedly for 2 hours. That would certainly subvert expectations, but after the initial surprise and maybe even a pang of laughter, it would go nowhere, and ultimately be neither entertaining nor artistically significant. This is, hyperbole aside, essentially what happened with TP:TR. DougieCoop character, for example, isn't a bad idea in and of itself, and neither are various other strange and eccentric narrative choices, but ultimately they all went nowhere. They failed to coalesce into a complete creation greater than, or perhaps just equal to, the sum of its parts. Subverting expectations is fine when the end result is better or maybe different but still interesting to what was expected. Not when it's inferior.

[eyeboogers]

The problem with "subverting expectations", a term that has been used as an argument by TP:TR apologists time and time again, is that there are different possible outcomes of doing it. Some are good and some not so good. The next big blockbuster movie could be filmed featuring a 10-second loop of a man in a clown costume falling down repeatedly for 2 hours. That would certainly subvert expectations, but after the initial surprise and maybe even a pang of laughter, it would go nowhere, and ultimately be neither entertaining nor artistically significant. This is, hyperbole aside, essentially what happened with TP:TR. DougieCoop character, for example, isn't a bad idea in and of itself, and neither are various other strange and eccentric narrative choices, but ultimately they all went nowhere. They failed to coalesce into a complete creation greater than, or perhaps just equal to, the sum of its parts. Subverting expectations is fine when the end result is better or maybe different but still interesting to what was expected. Not when it's inferior.

Things going nowhere - or not as they were meant to, is one of the main themes of the season. The dead ends, the crushed dreams, the out of left field curveballs which derail the expected narratives, are very much like the structure of life itself. What it feels like to grow older and to have made your choices, or to have had them made for you by design or circumstance. Keeping "The Final Dossier" in mind, it is clear this is something Lynch/Frost were very eager to dig into. Many people in this thread get frustrated when things don't play out according to an imaginary 25 year old contract, but even that frustration gets the point/feeling across that the filmmakers were aiming for.

Furthermore, experimenting with dead ends (not just red herrings, but storylines set up to be abandoned) is something I see great potential in, when it comes to transmedia mystery narratives such as this. Great that someone established started playing around with this technique.

I truly hope that many of you are able to return to the return in a few years with fresh eyes and open minds.

[Gabriel]

I truly hope that many of you are able to return to the return in a few years with fresh eyes and open minds.

Waiting quarter of a century gave many of us plenty of time for fresh eyes and open minds. At 42, I’ve lived a lot of life since I was the 15 year old who adored the original series and 18 year old who loved the movie, which I’ve always considered one of the best translations of a TV show to a different medium.

It’s not that I didn’t get what I wanted. It’s that what I got was a sham. Sometimes an experiment that plays with a ‘parody’ of bad writing is simply bad writing. Had I seen tightly edited FWWM with the majority of the Missing Pieces integrated into a longer cut, I’d have felt much the same about it as I do about TPTR.

TPTR feels like a novel where the author had no editorial oversight. As an editor myself, I feel TPTR proves the tenet that ‘to write is human, to edit is divine.’

[boske]

Having an open mind is definitely a positive thing, but not sufficient in of itself, some critical and rational thinking better be present too, otherwise it would be akin to getting into a car that has a gas pedal but no brakes (try to guess who the driver would be). To take it even further, simply gobbling up any kind of (especially visual) material without applying any critical thinking is akin to consenting to being hypnotized and giving anyone keys to your home.

I disagree on the 25 year contract thing, there was no contract. However, we were advertised a "return" with some familiar faces and slogans (damn good coffee, and hot!, the gum you like is ...). Seriously, if you hear back from a great friend from high school or university days, who you are about to meet and have a drink with, would you not ask him/her to tell you (at least briefly) what he/she was up to since then? Is that too rude? Would you simply never bring it up? Because it happens to be predictable? Let us still even brush this part aside and get to the expectations that we were served day in and out, not any expectations that we may have had for past 25 years. A few scenes with Andy (there are others too), would serve great here. If Andy shows us at that isolated house where that guy tells him to leave but that he would meet him at 4:30, would you not at least have expected that it may have had something to do with the elusive Richard and Linda whose names were dangled in front of our faces like a carrot in front of a donkey? Would the fact that the guy never showed up and the thread was not pursued anymore not constitute an expectation that was forced upon us and simply neglected, forgotten, tossed aside? Would the fact the the Fireman (or whatever he/it is) invited Andy for a briefing, which later on did not cause Andy to immediately recognize Mr. C. for who he was (which was what Fireman must have intended to happen), not be another expectation that we were spoon-fed that was then ignored or actually reversed? Was this in a 25 year contract? These were not expectations that I have harbored for 25 years but a practical joke on the viewer. If somebody says/promises/announces something somewhat important and never mentions it again, week after week, should I still have an open mind and gobble it up? Or is it a meta thing where we are shown to be Andy-like ourselves but are blind to see it?

Simply characterizing all of TR flaws and failures as art that one did not get because there was no open mind, or something like that, does not pass the smell test. In a nutshell, a piece of art cannot be ugly, which is what TR sadly and simply is, when all is said, done, seen, and considered.

[BGate]

TPTR feels like a novel where the author had no editorial oversight.

That's exactly what it is (except it's cinema which is obviously superior to literature). And thank god for it.

[BGate]

If there's one thing I always think when experiencing a piece of art it's "I wish some schmuck had meddled with this in order to make it more palatable to middlebrow tastes."

[Nighthawk]

The problem with "subverting expectations", a term that has been used as an argument by TP:TR apologists time and time again, is that there are different possible outcomes of doing it. Some are good and some not so good. The next big blockbuster movie could be filmed featuring a 10-second loop of a man in a clown costume falling down repeatedly for 2 hours. That would certainly subvert expectations, but after the initial surprise and maybe even a pang of laughter, it would go nowhere, and ultimately be neither entertaining nor artistically significant. This is, hyperbole aside, essentially what happened with TP:TR. DougieCoop character, for example, isn't a bad idea in and of itself, and neither are various other strange and eccentric narrative choices, but ultimately they all went nowhere. They failed to coalesce into a complete creation greater than, or perhaps just equal to, the sum of its parts. Subverting expectations is fine when the end result is better or maybe different but still interesting to what was expected. Not when it's inferior.

Things going nowhere - or not as they were meant to, is one of the main themes of the season.

I have no problem with that as long as it is still presented in an interesting manner. A well written script makes watching paint dry interesting. TP:TR just didn't deliver in that department. There were good ideas, some great moments, but generally the spark fizzled out as the season went along.

The dead ends, the crushed dreams, the out of left field curveballs which derail the expected narratives, are very much like the structure of life itself. What it feels like to grow older and to have made your choices, or to have had them made for you by design or circumstance. Keeping "The Final Dossier" in mind, it is clear this is something Lynch/Frost were very eager to dig into. Many people in this thread get frustrated when things don't play out according to an imaginary 25 year old contract, but even that frustration gets the point/feeling across that the filmmakers were aiming for.

Well, if we are talking about art works that deal with the ideas of inevitability of changes, passage of time, or unrealized hopes and dreams, then there is the pick of the litter of about a billion such works, many of them superior to TP:TR. I didn't see TP:TR deliver anything groundbraking in that theme.

Furthermore, experimenting with dead ends (not just red herrings, but storylines set up to be abandoned) is something I see great potential in, when it comes to transmedia mystery narratives such as this. Great that someone established started playing around with this technique.

I seriously doubt that Lynch maintained a full creative control over this project from beginning to end. Not that it was in anyone else's hands, but that Lynch simply got overwhelmed by the complexity. So much was undertaken that there was not enough time and not enough ideas for how to bring closure to those open ends. And by closure, I don't necessarily mean that various plots had to be resolved. It's just a basic tenet of good storytelling, and one really not worth departing from for reason of common sense, that everything included in a story should be there for a reason. A plot may meander, characters may come and go, but at least there needs to be a reason for them to exist within that world. Speaking of characters, as they are usually key to a good story, who did we get in TP:TR that was memorable? I don't even feel like listing the various characters, it's enough to say that their one common theme was that they were irrelevant. They could all be replaced, interchanged or entirely removed and it would have made little difference.

I truly hope that many of you are able to return to the return in a few years with fresh eyes and open minds.

That's a bit presumptious to assume that many of didn't go into it with an open mind in the first place. Every such evaluation is subjective, but I gave TP:TR every chance I could to like it, but on reflection, I deem it a failure. Perhaps my opinion will change one day, but it's quite unlikely.

[Agent Earle]

If there's one thing I always think when experiencing a piece of art it's "I wish some schmuck had meddled with this in order to make it more palatable to middlebrow tastes."

No offense, but The Return often tastes like the work of some fanboy schmuck who takes his mythology crafting and sci-fi/fantasy tastes to the extreme. As a matter of fact, I think there are fans out there that would deliver a much more intriguing continuation of the '90-'91 era Peaks - not to mention much more faithful to its heart and spirit - than what the series' two "fathers" have come up with.

[boske]

When in presence of real art, one is in awe and not thinking of anything else but the art and the joy it brings. One would normally tend to eventually share this joy with the world and not look down nose at it.

[LateReg]

Minus being a musician, Dougie acts exactly like Ronnie Rocket. They both only speak to mimic the last word or two someone else says. Ronnie even turns into a gold pebble at the end.

the thing about that is that Ronnie Rocket was just one movie - the joke only had to keep going for a couple of hours. Dougie joke was kept going for 12 hours - that's 6 movies! Alot of time for it to starting wearing thin...

Screen time for Dougie was nowhere near 12 hours. Some episodes like 8, he did not appear at all. In episodes 12, 14 and 15 he is only in there for a few seconds.

Speaking of which, I've always felt this was an interesting thing to consider. We got 18 hours. That's a lot of hours, and surely the disappointment for some is that we spent too many of those hours with certain characters as opposed to others. But at the same time, 18 hours leaves plenty of room for each of the characters, and, after the first six hours, we actually barely spend any time with Dougie. For all the complaints about Gordon Cole, we probably barely spent any time with him in the grand scheme of an 18-hour movie. Which is all to say that I've been very curious as to how the screentime for each character adds up. Has Lostinthemovies or anyone else finished compiling screentime for each character? I'm very interested in that.

[LateReg]

The dead ends, the crushed dreams, the out of left field curveballs which derail the expected narratives, are very much like the structure of life itself. What it feels like to grow older and to have made your choices, or to have had them made for you by design or circumstance. Keeping "The Final Dossier" in mind, it is clear this is something Lynch/Frost were very eager to dig into. Many people in this thread get frustrated when things don't play out according to an imaginary 25 year old contract, but even that frustration gets the point/feeling across that the filmmakers were aiming for.

Well, if we are talking about art works that deal with the ideas of inevitability of changes, passage of time, or unrealized hopes and dreams, then there is the pick of the litter of about a billion such works, many of them superior to TP:TR. I didn't see TP:TR deliver anything groundbraking in that theme.

I know you'll say the same thing to me in response, but I had to respond to this exact quote because I really have trouble grasping how one could feel that way. I think The Return is easily the most groundbreaking work to ever delve into the themes of change, passage of time and unrealized hopes and dreams. The way it handles its aging characters, how it approaches nostalgia, the narrative methods it employs to address the past and the impossibility of returning, etc. It's profound and disorienting and truthful in very unique ways.

[Agent327]

I truly hope that many of you are able to return to the return in a few years with fresh eyes and open minds.

I think that's both quite nice and slightly condescending at the same time, which is an interesting combination.

It's really no different than heading to the "profoundly satisfied"-thread, posting "I really hope that many of you are able to return to the return in a few years, with a more logical, rational open mind, free of the closed off world limited by the heavy confirmation bias that trapped you in an 'emperors new clothes' mind set" this time around. Open your mind and eyes, and see this failure for what it really is".

After having listened to countless podcasts and YouTubers trying to figure out the meaning of every little thing, as well as the 'deeper meaning' behind it, we now have Lynch saying exactly what the detractors have been saying all along. It doesn't really mean much of anything.

As he keeps repeating, these are simply *ideas* that happened to occur to Lynch, and he thought they were cool, they felt good, he liked the images.

In the end he hopes that it all ties together somewhat, but that is not a requirement for him.

So unless the world presented in The Return FEELS appealing and the ideas strike you as really awesome, then this going to be a very boring , slow paced, uninspired series, and waiting another decade or two is unlikely to change that.

What went wrong in my view is that Lynch has simply lost his touch. After MANY years on the planet and in the business, with long periods of time between projects to boot. He has had a fantastic run.

The ability to tell a truly compelling idea from something that should immediately be labeled 'not good enough', as opposed to, as he puts it "any idea is a gift". That's where this director, now in his 70s, pales in comparison to his younger self. He can still get ideas, and he can be focused enough to tell his actors exactly what he wants. It's his judgement that is severely failing.

And now, as expected, you have Twin Peaks fans on youtube for instance, wondering why TPTR was snubbed at the Golden Globes, in all seriousness giving MAIN reasons such as "They didn't give as many fruit baskets as some of the other shows"....without a hint of irony incredibly!

It really wasn't very good. It wasn't a very inspired nor entertaining piece of work.

I hope we see a season 4, because I think just by chance, by simply a more fortunate roll of the "Lynch idea dice" we'd likely get a better TP if they gave it another shot.

[Gabriel]

That's exactly what it is (except it's cinema which is obviously superior to literature). And thank god for it.

The prize for one of the stupidest remarks ever goes to BGate. Next time I re-read Crime and Punishment, I’ll have to remember that Plan 9 from Outer Space is superior.