Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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boske
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby boske » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:44 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Hopefully not wandering too far off topic...I liked The Last Jedi (I’ve liked all three of the new films for different reasons, although Rogue One was by far my favorite). It subverted some of the series tropes in very interesting ways before settling in and doing exactly what you expected it to do in the final act. Honestly, I think reactionaries on both sides are exaggerating how much of a departure the film was. It was the standard arc presented in countless popular novels and big-budget films: (very vague and obvious/well-publicized plot spoiler follows)

Spoiler:
disillusioned former hero has to be persuaded to rejoin the fight.

I enjoyed the way the film toyed with adding some moral ambiguity to Lucas’s light & dark-themed mythology, but that was pretty much thrown out the window. I do admire Johnson as a filmmaker (the “Ozymandias” episode of Breaking Bad is astounding), but Last Jedi isn’t remotely in the same playing field as TP:TR when it comes to revolutionary sequels. I still find the parallels between the two works neat, tho’.

Somebody mentioned a few pages back that there was something festering in this thread, and without going into the scrutinizing any of that, I can say that it is a mere storm in a teacup compared to what is going on after this SW movie. I tuned out of the whole thing and never saw anything past episode III, I have simply not been interested, having an idea where Disney might take the whole thing. Ditto for ep. IX and "Rogue Too" should it ever come out, and we all know it will. :mrgreen: I did happen to see some YT videos of the profoundly disappointed folks there, oh boy. Let us not forget that there is so much money involved with that franchise that should this game with subverting some expectations result in a major money loss (tickets, toys, whatever), some people may as well choose a different career. I do not see that happening though, the revolution devours its own children and these SW fans will be kicked out of the party and end up at the windows looking outside in. Maybe some collectors will be able to scoop some SW memorabilia for cheap though, it might hit the market soon.

This thing with subverting expectations better not catch on, as it may be fun when a director or screenwriter does it, but not when your dentist or car mechanic pulls it. Maybe we should blame Brad Goodman and his "Inner Child Workshop", most of us surely remember how that ended. :lol:



Mr. Reindeer wrote:(And let’s all take a moment to reflect on where the Star Wars franchise might be if a Dune-era DKL had taken Lucas up on the offer to direct Return of the Jedi. I don’t think we would have gotten Ewoks ;) .)

The question there is would there ever have been any Twin Peaks? So having Ewoks for that reason alone was very much worth it.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:35 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Hopefully not wandering too far off topic...I liked The Last Jedi (I’ve liked all three of the new films for different reasons, although Rogue One was by far my favorite). It subverted some of the series tropes in very interesting ways before settling in and doing exactly what you expected it to do in the final act. Honestly, I think reactionaries on both sides are exaggerating how much of a departure the film was. It was the standard arc presented in countless popular novels and big-budget films: (very vague and obvious/well-publicized plot spoiler follows)

Spoiler:
disillusioned former hero has to be persuaded to rejoin the fight.


I enjoyed the way the film toyed with adding some moral ambiguity to Lucas’s light & dark-themed mythology, but that was pretty much thrown out the window. I do admire Johnson as a filmmaker (the “Ozymandias” episode of Breaking Bad is astounding), but Last Jedi isn’t remotely in the same playing field as TP:TR when it comes to revolutionary sequels. I still find the parallels between the two works neat, tho’.

(And let’s all take a moment to reflect on where the Star Wars franchise might be if a Dune-era DKL had taken Lucas up on the offer to direct Return of the Jedi. I don’t think we would have gotten Ewoks ;) .)


I've about had my fill of Star Wars, though I think I'll drag myself into The Last Jedi just because of what you wrote (I did not open your spoiler tag).

As you may remember from many posts ago, I'm one of those rare birds who likes the prequels better than the originals, so when The Force Awakens ended up being one giant nostalgia trip, I thought I was out of the game for good. But I'm intrigued enough now to come back for another look.

For some reason I turned off Rogue One after 10 minutes.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:01 am

mtwentz wrote:For some reason I turned off Rogue One after 10 minutes.


Good call!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:22 am

Right. I’m basically going to skedaddle for the Christmas period.

It’s been a strange and fascinating year. It’s been a blast talking to everyone here. Wishing you all a fantastic Christmas and New Year.

I’ll raise a glass to you all when I’m sitting next to my parents’ Christmas tree tomorrow.

Dom x
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:34 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
mtsi wrote:I have recently discovered a common thread among my friends who like the show..... Every one of them was a fan as of late, meaning that they didn't watch the original run.

I wonder if the majority of us who were disappointed were people that had allowed the show to percolate in our brains for 25 years? It seems to me that newer fans have a far different perception of what the show meant and, ultimately, meant to them.

I don't believe either is right or wrong but this has been my observation.

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I am a way back fan. All of the way back fans I know personally (or online) love the new series, some more than the old run. I don't think there is a correlation here.


I'm a way back fan. First watched TP when it aired in 1990. Couldn't stand TPTR. Awful. Not sure where that leaves us. Maybe yin and yang?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:34 pm

Gabriel wrote:Right. I’m basically going to skedaddle for the Christmas period.

It’s been a strange and fascinating year. It’s been a blast talking to everyone here. Wishing you all a fantastic Christmas and New Year.

I’ll raise a glass to you all when I’m sitting next to my parents’ Christmas tree tomorrow.

Dom x

Merry Chrimble fellow sceptic and cheers ears :D
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:10 pm

Venus wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
mtsi wrote:I have recently discovered a common thread among my friends who like the show..... Every one of them was a fan as of late, meaning that they didn't watch the original run.

I wonder if the majority of us who were disappointed were people that had allowed the show to percolate in our brains for 25 years? It seems to me that newer fans have a far different perception of what the show meant and, ultimately, meant to them.

I don't believe either is right or wrong but this has been my observation.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I am a way back fan. All of the way back fans I know personally (or online) love the new series, some more than the old run. I don't think there is a correlation here.


I'm a way back fan. First watched TP when it aired in 1990. Couldn't stand TPTR. Awful. Not sure where that leaves us. Maybe yin and yang?


I watched the Pilot on the night it premiered and I have really enjoyed TPTR and I have one other friend who I am still in touch with who watched it from the premiere, and he loved TPTR as well. A lot of the other people I used to discuss Twin Peaks with back in the 90s I lost touch with a long time ago, so unfortunately, I am unable to draw any firm conclusions.

I think it's safe to say though that any time a filmmaker takes a beloved franchise in a radical new direction, not all of the old fans are going to like said new direction.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:28 pm

Agent327 wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:I truly hope that many of you are able to return to the return in a few years with fresh eyes and open minds.


And now, as expected, you have Twin Peaks fans on youtube for instance, wondering why TPTR was snubbed at the Golden Globes, in all seriousness giving MAIN reasons such as "They didn't give as many fruit baskets as some of the other shows"....without a hint of irony incredibly!

It really wasn't very good. It wasn't a very inspired nor entertaining piece of work.

I hope we see a season 4, because I think just by chance, by simply a more fortunate roll of the "Lynch idea dice" we'd likely get a better TP if they gave it another shot.


As of today, the top 3 on Metacritic's Top 10 T.V. shows for 2017 are:
1. The Leftovers
2. Twin Peaks
3. The Good Place

Of those 3, only Twin Peaks was nominated for any Golden Globe award at all.

The bottom line is that there are a lot of great T.V. shows out there now, and widely varying tastes, so it's almost a crapshoot as to which show is ultimately going to get/win an award or receive critical praise: It's very hard to stand out as 'the show' when there are dozens of great shows being produced.

You are entitled to your own opinion but I think it's hard to argue against Twin Peaks having been a critical success, and thus having some claim to being considered a great film/show, even if it doesn't connect with you personally.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mammajamma » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:52 am

I guess I'm ultimately disappointed in The Return, even if it's one of the shows of the year for me. There were some great scenes but just about every subplot set in Twin Peaks felt entirely disconnected from each other; they also went nowhere and had no resolution.

I wanted to know more about Dopplecoop's background. How did he amass such a huge sum of money, presumably in the drug trade without having any trustworthy people around him? He needs/WANTS people around him, even if pretty much everyone he uses winds up plotting against him and paying for it (maybe that accounts for his lack of trustworthy help when we first join him). By the end he seems completely aimless and barely a threat.

I'm still reeling a bit from the ending, but I haven't reached a conclusion on whether I hate it or not.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:44 pm

mammajamma wrote:I guess I'm ultimately disappointed in The Return, even if it's one of the shows of the year for me. There were some great scenes but just about every subplot set in Twin Peaks felt entirely disconnected from each other; they also went nowhere and had no resolution.

I wanted to know more about Dopplecoop's background. How did he amass such a huge sum of money, presumably in the drug trade without having any trustworthy people around him? He needs/WANTS people around him, even if pretty much everyone he uses winds up plotting against him and paying for it (maybe that accounts for his lack of trustworthy help when we first join him). By the end he seems completely aimless and barely a threat.

I'm still reeling a bit from the ending, but I haven't reached a conclusion on whether I hate it or not.


In the first episode you see that Mr.C actually has a network of people he trusts (to some degree). We also see that he is good at using people and has no moral scruples, we know that Cooper has a somewhat superior intellect. So I think we have enough pieces to conclude that it is credible that he is a masterful criminal.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mammajamma » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:18 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
mammajamma wrote:I guess I'm ultimately disappointed in The Return, even if it's one of the shows of the year for me. There were some great scenes but just about every subplot set in Twin Peaks felt entirely disconnected from each other; they also went nowhere and had no resolution.

I wanted to know more about Dopplecoop's background. How did he amass such a huge sum of money, presumably in the drug trade without having any trustworthy people around him? He needs/WANTS people around him, even if pretty much everyone he uses winds up plotting against him and paying for it (maybe that accounts for his lack of trustworthy help when we first join him). By the end he seems completely aimless and barely a threat.

I'm still reeling a bit from the ending, but I haven't reached a conclusion on whether I hate it or not.


In the first episode you see that Mr.C actually has a network of people he trusts (to some degree). We also see that he is good at using people and has no moral scruples, we know that Cooper has a somewhat superior intellect. So I think we have enough pieces to conclude that it is credible that he is a masterful criminal.


I guess you mean Duncan Todd? He doesn't really seem all that capable; we can see that he regrets ever getting involved with Mr. C and later on shows hesitation after he gets the red box on his screen. I'm not sure if the woman he hires (Lorraine, had to search) is an attempt at delegating work/guilt of some of the crimes he's involved in, or whether she's actually instated by Mr. C. Either way she also is proven incapable, along with Ike the Spike, the hillbillies (loved them), and Anthony.

As an aside, incompetence seems to pervade most of the institutions of Vegas we see, the police force is mostly corrupt or at the very least has a corrupt "cell", the Vegas branch of the FBI is run by a hothead, and even the casino is horribly mismanaged with a hasty appointment of the guy who let 30 slot jackpots by the same guy go without stopping him for the old manager who got the shit kicked out of him.

Unless the Todd syndicate is but one tine on a worldwide fork of people beholden to Dopplecoop, he has gotten by on pure luck and cunning. I don't get why the people he employs suddenly lost their ability to get stuff done unless he doesn't actually have reliable people around him.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:52 am

mammajamma wrote:I guess you mean Duncan Todd? He doesn't really seem all that capable; we can see that he regrets ever getting involved with Mr. C and later on shows hesitation after he gets the red box on his screen. I'm not sure if the woman he hires (Lorraine, had to search) is an attempt at delegating work/guilt of some of the crimes he's involved in, or whether she's actually instated by Mr. C. Either way she also is proven incapable, along with Ike the Spike, the hillbillies (loved them), and Anthony.

As an aside, incompetence seems to pervade most of the institutions of Vegas we see, the police force is mostly corrupt or at the very least has a corrupt "cell", the Vegas branch of the FBI is run by a hothead, and even the casino is horribly mismanaged with a hasty appointment of the guy who let 30 slot jackpots by the same guy go without stopping him for the old manager who got the shit kicked out of him.

Unless the Todd syndicate is but one tine on a worldwide fork of people beholden to Dopplecoop, he has gotten by on pure luck and cunning. I don't get why the people he employs suddenly lost their ability to get stuff done unless he doesn't actually have reliable people around him.


Besides Duncan Todd, the pilot episode also shows us Roddy and Buella and "Philip Jeffries" as accomplishes of Mr.C. Basically it gives the impression of a vast criminal network. Also it seems Duncan Todd is normally good at getting the job done, it is only when Cooper and a bit of deus ex machina happens that ordinary crime skills don't match up.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:44 am

eyeboogers wrote:
mammajamma wrote:I guess you mean Duncan Todd? He doesn't really seem all that capable; we can see that he regrets ever getting involved with Mr. C and later on shows hesitation after he gets the red box on his screen. I'm not sure if the woman he hires (Lorraine, had to search) is an attempt at delegating work/guilt of some of the crimes he's involved in, or whether she's actually instated by Mr. C. Either way she also is proven incapable, along with Ike the Spike, the hillbillies (loved them), and Anthony.

As an aside, incompetence seems to pervade most of the institutions of Vegas we see, the police force is mostly corrupt or at the very least has a corrupt "cell", the Vegas branch of the FBI is run by a hothead, and even the casino is horribly mismanaged with a hasty appointment of the guy who let 30 slot jackpots by the same guy go without stopping him for the old manager who got the shit kicked out of him.

Unless the Todd syndicate is but one tine on a worldwide fork of people beholden to Dopplecoop, he has gotten by on pure luck and cunning. I don't get why the people he employs suddenly lost their ability to get stuff done unless he doesn't actually have reliable people around him.


Besides Duncan Todd, the pilot episode also shows us Roddy and Buella and "Philip Jeffries" as accomplishes of Mr.C. Basically it gives the impression of a vast criminal network. Also it seems Duncan Todd is normally good at getting the job done, it is only when Cooper and a bit of deus ex machina happens that ordinary crime skills don't match up.


Who was Roddy? I only remember Buella and Otis frim Part 1.

Part of me was hoping it would end up Mr. C was actually working undercover as he claimed.bthat would have been a surprise revelation!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:20 am

mtwentz wrote:Who was Roddy? I only remember Buella and Otis frim Part 1.

Part of me was hoping it would end up Mr. C was actually working undercover as he claimed.bthat would have been a surprise revelation!


My bad, it is Otis. I also thought that it could have been possible that Mr.C was somehow undercover, but only up to the scene with Daria.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:04 am

eyeboogers wrote:
mtwentz wrote:Who was Roddy? I only remember Buella and Otis frim Part 1.

Part of me was hoping it would end up Mr. C was actually working undercover as he claimed.bthat would have been a surprise revelation!


My bad, it is Otis. I also thought that it could have been possible that Mr.C was somehow undercover, but only up to the scene with Daria.


Well, actually...

It's not beyond the realm of possibility for someone under deep cover to commit a crime. In fact, there are some famous cases where federal agents were tortured and killed by drug kingpins with an actual deep cover DEA witnessing and doing nothing to stop it.

But in the scenario I envisioned, Mr. C. would be playing both sides- working 'officially' as FBI deep cover, but of course, always really working only for his own evil ends.
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