Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[Nikki Grace]

Would love to know exactly why it is "pretentious". Just because you don't like it?

I also think you show a misunderstanding of Lynch and the idea of the "Lynchian" style. Lynch's actual style as a director isn't so surreal - it's the subject matter that defines the weirdness. In terms of direction he's actually often rather classical, shooting in long masters, rarely handheld, rarely breaking up the frame unless it's a pivotal moment.

Just seems like you are enjoying the stories on screen more because of the old characters - which is fine - but don't go throwing around useless buzzwords like "pretentious". And personally, I like to think all media forms can aspire towards art. Why not?

I've been watching and enjoying Lynch's output since the late 1980s.

A spade is a spade and it costs $29.95!

Pretentious is when people think it's art to show a bloke sweeping a room for five minutes for no good reason. Pretentious is wasting time so that a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals can pat each others' cheeks, pretending to love something for it's devious 'cleverness,' thinking they're seeing something the barbarians don't; I see a naked emperor.

What Part 7 had was plot, momentum and characters I knew from Twin Peaks and cared about. Things actually started to move. I never watched Twin Peaks for the 'art,' although I recognised it for superior production values and it was beautifully shot. I'm thrilled if people have enjoyed the ham-fisted, amateurish joke-free sketch-show I've endured the last several weeks. Frankly, it insulted my intelligence and that of a lot of people here. I watched it for characters to whom I related, for whom I cared and their crazy misadventures.

I had four teeth pulled out by an orthodontist back in the 1980s. A couple of my teeth were jammed in so tight that the dentist literally had his foot against the chair with the nurse holding my head in the opposite direction to get them out. That was tedious, painful and too hours. The first six episodes of the new Twin Peaks felt like that for me. Indeed, the latest episode threw the past six into such sharp relief that I can't believe I tolerated as much as I did.

Now, I'm going to go and get myself a damn fine cup of coffee and make sure I didn't leave a fish in the percolator!

You see, there are many examples in film and TV where I can see this. But I have never, ever seen Lynch as falling into this category whatsoever. Again, it's fine not to like them, but I really resent it when people pull out the pretentious card when it's not at all deserved. It's just not true for him or his new Twin Peaks.

[Agent Earle]

The jury's still out in my case. The final decision will be heavily influenced by the presence - or lack thereof - of Windom Earle in the narrative. Given Lynch's expressed feelings about the whole of S 2, I'd settle for in-passing-mention-only as a sign the man respects history and mythology of his own show, after all.

* I'm only half-joking.

[Gabriel]

I'm sure you're sincere in these views but it does come across as trolling. We can probably all have better discussion if we refrain from provoking the other side.

I'm honest about my opinions. I've always been honest. By accusing me of 'trolling,' Nikki, you're effectively saying 'La la la! Don't want to hear it!' Not everyone likes the same thing. I'll defend FWWM to the grave, while other people throw three tons of silage on it. You're very welcome to disagree with me vehemently.

Go back through my posts and you'll find I'm remarkably consistent. I'll give praise when I feel it's due and I'll shoot something down if I dislike it. Moreover, I'll say why I dislike it. I'm on the Profoundly Disappointed thread. I've been on this forum for a long time – ten years. If you dislike what I say, feel free to ignore me. I don't bite.

[Gabriel]

You see, there are many examples in film and TV where I can see this. But I have never, ever seen Lynch as falling into this category whatsoever. Again, it's fine not to like them, but I really resent it when people pull out the pretentious card when it's not at all deserved. It's just not true for him or his new Twin Peaks.

Nikki, with all due respect, if you have manners, you don't turn up on a forum, having never been here before, go straight to a thread for people who are disappointed when you aren't, then start telling them they're trolling.

Introduce yourself, make nice, then we can all be friends. Then you can start accusing me of trolling on your fifth post!

[Hockey Mask]

Stop being condecending.

Nikki, you and your opinions are welcome.

[Agent Earle]

I don't remember you stepping in at the genuine (ie. not only seeming) outbursts of trolling in this thread, the ones talking about squids squirming on the floor with their beloved soap opera being gone or some-such condescending nonsense. A little perspective would be nice, given the title and purpose of the thread 'n' all.

[Gabriel]

Stop being condecending.
Nikki, you and your opinions are welcome.

Absolutely they are, but accusing someone of trolling on your second post is, frankly, rude. I'll willingly chat with Nikki till the cows come home, but throwing round the 't' word brings associations I don't care for.

[N. Needleman]

Gabriel, I think people in here should be able to express as much of their feelings as they want but let's be honest with each other: Any time you've gone off on a tear over the slightest thing in the last couple years that's perturbed you about this show or its production it's been back to these fairly colorful descriptions accusing Lynch of being a cynical old codger out to dupe us all and make his filthy lucre while cackling his way back to the TM ashram. This has happened several times, well before 5/21 and the show's actual return. It's gotten to be your stock in trade. I can predict it.

I like you and I accept that you have a certain outsize personality; so do I sometimes. I welcome that. But I think you're smart enough that this kind of bombastic approach is more performative than anything a lot of the time, and doesn't really tone down the discourse. I don't think anyone should come in here and call you guys philistines or plebs, and I've said so before. But I also think you sometimes enjoy putting on these displays more than you actually believe in them. And I think you frankly enjoy being able to sort of breezily insinuate that everyone else just isn't as plainspoken as you about some of these things, or even that those of who differ are therefore either pretentious or being weak-kneed.

I am not weak-kneed and neither are you. You've been here way longer than me. I respect that. But if you could maybe turn the dial a little lower on the range I think you'll find people willing to listen a little more. Because I think both you and Nikki have valid points to make.

And yeah, I dug the sweeping scene. It was designed to test you. And it worked!

[yaxomoxay]

Stop being condecending.
Nikki, you and your opinions are welcome.

Absolutely they are, but accusing someone of trolling on your second post is, frankly, rude. I'll willingly chat with Nikki till the cows come home, but throwing round the 't' word brings associations I don't care for.

I don't think that you're trolling, actually you bring interesting points, but one of your previous posts tells me that you're not looking at the entire equation.
You said that television making is a craft, not a form of art. I disagree with this statement. Craftsmanship and art making go together. Just ask any glassblower, painter, programmer, or sculptor. An artist can't create La Pieta' without perfect knowledge of his craft and perfect knowledge of the powers and shortfalls of hammers and tools. Also, a craftsman can't create amazing glass pieces without art.
The two things are not mutually exclusive, they actually go together. Of course you can buy glass made stuff like a glass bowl at Ikea; that lacks lots of the artistic part.
In a work like Lynch's you will need to seek both. There's an artistic component, and it utilizes skilled craftsmanship to reach the artistic goal. I think that S3 is balancing both elements pretty well.


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[Gabriel]

I don't think that you're trolling, actually you bring interesting points, but one of your previous posts tells me that you're not looking at the entire equation.
You said that television making is a craft, not a form of art. I disagree with this statement. Craftsmanship and art making go together. Just ask any glassblower, painter, programmer, or sculptor. An artist can't create La Pieta' without perfect knowledge of his craft and perfect knowledge of the powers and shortfalls of hammers and tools. Also, a craftsman can't create amazing glass pieces without art.
The two things are not mutually exclusive, they actually go together. Of course you can buy glass made stuff like a glass bowl at Ikea; that lacks lots of artistic part.
In a work like Lynch's you will need to seek both. There's an artistic component, and it utilizes skilled craftsmanship to reach the artistic goal. I think that S3 is balancing both elements pretty well.

Absolutely, yaxomoxay – and thank you, I always enjoy chatting with you. I feel it's a balance though. I feel we've had too much 'art' and not enough craft of late. This latest episode rebalances things considerably. The two live in a state of balance. As I said before, the craft is essential; the true artist elevates the craft.

[yaxomoxay]

I don't think that you're trolling, actually you bring interesting points, but one of your previous posts tells me that you're not looking at the entire equation.
You said that television making is a craft, not a form of art. I disagree with this statement. Craftsmanship and art making go together. Just ask any glassblower, painter, programmer, or sculptor. An artist can't create La Pieta' without perfect knowledge of his craft and perfect knowledge of the powers and shortfalls of hammers and tools. Also, a craftsman can't create amazing glass pieces without art.
The two things are not mutually exclusive, they actually go together. Of course you can buy glass made stuff like a glass bowl at Ikea; that lacks lots of artistic part.
In a work like Lynch's you will need to seek both. There's an artistic component, and it utilizes skilled craftsmanship to reach the artistic goal. I think that S3 is balancing both elements pretty well.

Absolutely, yaxomoxay – and thank you, I always enjoy chatting with you. I feel it's a balance though. I feel we've had too much 'art' and not enough craft of late. This latest episode rebalances things considerably. The two live in a state of balance. As I said before, the craft is essential; the true artist elevates the craft.

And here I understand what you're saying. I might not agree with the judgment of the specifics (I am loving this series), but I agree on the balance in general. I also agree that E7 really balances both elements in a way that the previous episodes didn't do.
After E2 I mentioned to someone that this feels like a painting, so it's very difficult to judge the entire work by looking at only a section of it. I feel like we have watched only the top right corner of Van Gogh's Starry Night: just a big, bright circle. We have to see the entire thing, and last night's episode makes me believe that what I said is true. We are finally seeing more of the painting so the big bright circle can be contextualized a bit more. Obviously, I have no idea if this is going to be a Starry Night or if it's going to be similar to what I would paint (I can barely draw a stick figure man). In any case, think about this: Lynch and Frost made you invest 7 hours on something you don't like. Obviously you were predisposed to it by the fact that you were invested into S1 and S2, but they made you watch something more painful than your teeth being pulled out for 7 hours. Each week for 7 weeks you freely chose to sit down at the dentist's chair to suffer a little bit !!
Personally, I would never do that with something I don't like. I would have probably stopped at episode 3, yet you're still curious about how it will go which is quite an amazing feat considering that the worst for any artist/worker is not being criticized but being ignored.


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[Gabriel]

Gabriel, I think people in here should be able to express as much of their feelings as they want but let's be honest with each other: Any time you've gone off on a tear over the slightest thing in the last couple years that's perturbed you about this show or its production it's been back to these fairly colorful descriptions accusing Lynch of being a cynical old codger out to dupe us all and make his filthy lucre while cackling his way back to the TM ashram. This has happened several times, well before 5/21 and the show's actual return. It's gotten to be your stock in trade. I can predict it.

Then I apologise. I don't think he's a cynical old codger, although I feel that somewhere along the way he's developed a nihilistic streak which I find disappointing. And a couple of years back, as I've apologised for before, I had a severe period of depression (the real type, not just feeling self-absorbed, a bit sulky and boo boo!) which made me unacceptably unpleasant.

I like you and I accept that you have a certain outsize personality; so do I sometimes. I welcome that. But I think you're smart enough that this kind of bombastic approach is more performative than anything a lot of the time, and doesn't really tone down the discourse.

Yeah, point taken. Maybe I have too low a sense of self worth and just assume no one takes me seriously enough to care much about what I say!

I don't think anyone should come in here and call you guys philistines or plebs, and I've said so before. But I also think you sometimes enjoy putting on these displays more than you actually believe in them.

Damn! I really am an open book. No disagreement there!

And I think you frankly enjoy being able to sort of breezily insinuate that everyone else just isn't as plainspoken as you about some of these things, or even that those of who differ are therefore either pretentious or being weak-kneed.

I guess I've moved in art circles quite a bit and it can make me unfairly cynical. My targets weren't and never have been people here – I guess taking potshots at people 'out there' can needlessly catch nice people here in the crossfire!

I am not weak-kneed and neither are you. You've been here way longer than me. I respect that. But if you could maybe turn the dial a little lower on the range I think you'll find people willing to listen a little more.

I guess, curiously enough, I'm wildly enthusiastic about the debate, which can affect people who are more sanguine. Feeling chastened and can only apologise again. Please shoot me down whenever I go too far. I'll try to be better.

Because I think both you and Nikki have valid points to make.

Hopefully 'hello!'

And yeah, I dug the sweeping scene. It was designed to test you. And it worked!

It was a disgrace. The broom hadn't been sprayed gold!!

[boske]

The episode seven felt to me like the stuff I was hoping we'd get from the beginning. Not necessarily these very plot details, but the pace, suspense, the thrill. It need have all been in Twin Peeks the town either, I am perfectly fine with other venues. I mean, I liked parts of FWWM outside of TP as if they were there. The localized lack of music I could also accept. I was also ok with the surrealist elements in parts 1-4, and even the "new" lodge I could live with. Yes I find the old one more mysterious, but I will take the new one if this is what we are going to get, it is still pretty good.

Here is my main problem: we have 18 hours, and judging by how time flew yesterday, the better these episodes get, the sooner it will all be over. I will then look back to certain parts with regret, and wish that we could have had more. That certain parts of the story suffered because of it, a lost opportunity. This is what we get after 25 years, and for people such as myself who have mulled over parts of this show in early 2000s (when the show was "as dead as a door knob") and never lost hope, just seeing it is a dream come true. You simply wish to have a real masterpiece, Twin Peaks "+" so to speak. This may very well be all that we will ever get. A one chance that a sports team gets to win a cup, so to speak.

Back to episode 7, even though at times in ealier episodes I thought we were clearly being trolled, I found the floor mopping actually pretty good. Having seen a lot in the preceding 45 minutes or so, I welcomed it as an opportunity to rest my brain a bit, and try to recollect and process what I had just seen. You know, that scene would make a terrific computer screen-saver!

[IcedOver]

Well that wasn't as bad on first viewing as last week (although I liked 6 more on a re-watch). However, the same problems persist. Lynch talks so much about "ideas," and it just doesn't feel like the ideas he had either in the script or the filming/editing phase were very inspired. Things are just plodding along in such an emotionless, flat manner. Even within the stories they chose to tell, it could be so much better. Scenes are falling flat. The lack of music has something to do with it, but it's also many other factors, including some actors who either aren't great or who weren't directed well.

Diane might be second to Jade as my least favorite character. A character that says the oh-so-witty phrase "Fuck you" to everybody she meets, and cries without tears, and this from Dern . . . painful to watch.

As much as I like some of the absurdist touches in this show, the sweeping scene (probably of Lynch's cigarette butts from that week) tried my patience.

[Gabriel]

Well that wasn't as bad on first viewing as last week (although I liked 6 more on a re-watch). However, the same problems persist. Lynch talks so much about "ideas," and it just doesn't feel like the ideas he had either in the script or the filming/editing phase were very inspired. Things are just plodding along in such an emotionless, flat manner. Even within the stories they chose to tell, it could be so much better. Scenes are falling flat. The lack of music has something to do with it, but it's also many other factors, including some actors who either aren't great or who weren't directed well.

Diane might be second to Jade as my least favorite character. A character that says the oh-so-witty phrase "Fuck you" to everybody she meets, and cries without tears, and this from Dern . . . painful to watch.

As much as I like some of the absurdist touches in this show, the sweeping scene (probably of Lynch's cigarette butts from that week) tried my patience

Yes, I'm afraid it smacks of a lack of discipline to me. I've remarked elsewhere that giving an artist total control and a whopping budget doesn't guarantee the artist's best work. As a rule, limitations and structure are good way of focusing a talent. We can all see from Lynch's past work – especially the likes of The Elephant Man and The Straight Story – that he's an artist who's mastered the craft of filmmaking and made it his own. Here, it feels like the artist is in control, but everything feels unfocused; kind of all over the place. It's like a bon vivante who likes a glass or two of wine drinking twelve glasses and and going for a thirteenth and not knowing when to stop.