LurkerAtTheThreshold wrote:What I dot understand is why go back to the nuclear bomb? Something which has been explored in countless works of art, when their are a million things which are just as haunting happening in the world today. Islamic terror? The rise of totalitarian ideologies? Militantism? Imperialism?
I have two responses to this.
First, I honestly can't imagine why time would blunt the resonance of using the image of a nuclear explosion as a metaphor for total chaos and destruction. It is still the only tool that can literally destroy the habitability of the entire planet in one fell swoop. It sure remains a damn potent image for me.
Second, back to Twin Peaks specifically: Eeeeeeelectricity! Splitting an atom generates massive amounts of power and electricity is one of the key motifs of Twin Peaks, certainly since FWWM.
Ok fair points.
I'm not saying I can't be convinced.
It's still ten episodes away for me before I can fully brand the return 'flop' or 'floater'
and I think some are underestimating the profound effect the atomic bomb era would have had one someone Lynch's age at the time it happened. For an artist who is so obsessed with and shows so vividly the underbelly of Americana and the bleakness behind it, the atom bomb tests really hit home how things changed in this country with those tests.
Venus wrote:I'm still profoundly disappointed so am in the right thread for that. Good to know.
I'm also in the mixed-to-disappointed category, but didn't you enjoy Part 8 at least?
No I didn't. I had hopes after ep 7 as it showed a bit of promise, but I felt they were dashed on the rocks with ep 8. To me, personally, it's felt heartbreaking watching what has been screened so far.
Agent Earle wrote:
You bring up valid points. I'll be the first to admit I am taking this personally, probably too much, but you have to understand, this - well, that - show has been with me for so long now, and certain aspects of Season 2 especially are so profound and near God-like to me, so much so that I'm incapable of rationality when it comes to them. Sigh. It's probably best that I refrain from posting on this forum for some time, at least till I get more perspective on the new stuff as well as Lynch's statements and cool my head and then see how I feel about it all - I'd hate to be an instigator of fruitless arguments about taste and personal preferences, there's been too much of them already. Peace, fellow TP fan.
I doubt very much Lynch was serious, and he probably wouldn't have made those comments if he was speaking to someone more clued up on Twin Peaks. He's a cranky old man who hates media interviews; he gave a snappy soundbite to envelop how he generally felt about the show's direction. Do you really think there are "god-like" moments in S2 though that aren't from the beginning or final episodes? Do you put episodes from the dreaded middle run up on that pedestal?
I think the middle run of S 2 contains certain parts, elements, aspects etc. that are as good to me as the rest of the series (for the record, I think the absolutely best part of the series are the first 9 episodes of S 2, far surpassing anything in S 1) - I love everything with Windom Earle (and with Leo Johnson by extension) as a way to learn about Cooper's backstory (which I think is really intriguing and well-done: I adore the fact that they made his past such a tragic one and him a deeply scarred man), everything with Annie Blackburn as a way to get to witness our staunch hero in a romantic mode, everything with Jean Renault, everything with the Packards and Thomas Eckhardt, everything with Major Briggs and the Project Blue Book. I have a lot of room for the James & Evelyn stuff and Dick Tremayne (just 'cause he's genuinely funny). I used to detest Little Nicky and John Justice Wheeler as much as the next guy but lately they've managed to grow on me. I still mostly hate Ben's Civil War phase and Nadine the Superwoman.
But overall, what I like most about that segment of the show is how the creators (whoever they were at that point) managed to completely upend the series: on the surface, if kinda became this goofy crazy-event-or-dorky-townie-of-the-week soap opera (which is a miracle in itself, given the profound tragedy and darkness of violence, incest and murder it made us witness just a few eps back!), but below the surface, this mind-blowing, completely one-of-a-kind mythology was slowly creeping in, practically concealed from an inattentive viewer's mind. It's as if they made everything in the last 10-12 episodes in an attempt to lull viewer into a feeling of tranquility, safety, even occasional boredom, just so that the Finale (which is the show firing on all cylinders!) could come along and pull the rug from under his feet, causing a fall from which he would never fully recover.
All in all, S 2 is a wild, erratic, deeply layered, strange and wonderful cocktail of tones, genres and creative approaches unlike anything before or after - whenever I'm watching or thinking about it, it's like I died and went to television heaven!
Sorry to quote your post late and bring it back into discussion but I've just seen it.
Thank you for your input. I respect what you say and you paint it very lovingly, even if I personally don't see it the way you do. I do actually agree with the "lull" that leads to the crazy finale, but I wonder how much of that was an intentional 'drag you in' design. One thing's for sure though that it is much easier to watch the mid episodes now with post-knowledge of how good it ends up. I agree with you too that the first 9 episodes of S2 are ultimately the best the original show ever did, all because it built to that crescendo.
Venus wrote:I'm still profoundly disappointed so am in the right thread for that. Good to know.
I'm also in the mixed-to-disappointed category, but didn't you enjoy Part 8 at least?
No I didn't. I had hopes after ep 7 as it showed a bit of promise, but I felt they were dashed on the rocks with ep 8. To me, personally, it's felt heartbreaking watching what has been screened so far.
What is heartbreaking to you about it, out of interest? Is it just the missed potential of what I imagine you want (sorry to presume, but I imagine normal Cooper, 100% or close to 100% Twin Peaks setting), or is it the treatment of the pre-existing characters, the brutal violence etc? Or all of those things combined? I hate to say it but I think after episode 8 it's not going to get any better if you don't like it already. There will be hints of E7 cropping up but it will never settle into that format. There will always be a Lynch-Frost atomic wildcard waiting around the corner.
IcedOver wrote:
I'm also in the mixed-to-disappointed category, but didn't you enjoy Part 8 at least?
No I didn't. I had hopes after ep 7 as it showed a bit of promise, but I felt they were dashed on the rocks with ep 8. To me, personally, it's felt heartbreaking watching what has been screened so far.
What is heartbreaking to you about it, out of interest? Is it just the missed potential of what I imagine you want (sorry to presume, but I imagine normal Cooper, 100% or close to 100% Twin Peaks setting), or is it the treatment of the pre-existing characters, the brutal violence etc? Or all of those things combined? I hate to say it but I think after episode 8 it's not going to get any better if you don't like it already. There will be hints of E7 cropping up but it will never settle into that format. There will always be a Lynch-Frost atomic wildcard waiting around the corner.
Hi Nikki. Nice to speak to you. Ah don't dash any remaining hopes. Everyone on this thread who has been a fan of the new series has said to hold on, we're only a third of the way through an 18 hr movie and things will get better and it will return more to the some of the feeling of the old TP. Now you're saying it's not going to get better if you don't like it already. So were they all wrong?
douglasb wrote:Less frustrating than the show is the CONTINUAL use of this thread by individuals as a platform for debate. Read the first f'kin post. There are other debate threads. This is not a debate thread! By all means battle it out! Just not in this f'kin thread!
Lol I've stopped coming to the thread often for exactly this reason. Don't get me wrong there have been many fantastic posts by people who love The Return. But really for all of those either explicitly or implicitly criticising the intelligence of those of us who can't appreciate The Return I have to say your reading comprehension skills are more troubling than our inability to fully understand the greatness of this work.
Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group.
Venus wrote:No I didn't. I had hopes after ep 7 as it showed a bit of promise, but I felt they were dashed on the rocks with ep 8. To me, personally, it's felt heartbreaking watching what has been screened so far.
Too bad. I think what it's good to keep in mind is that this is not the original show, and it's not going to be. I vaguely recall a comment by MacLachlan (I believe on the documentary on the DVD) about when he was making "FWWM", that he asked Lynch "Can't we go back to the way it was?" (referring to the dark and harsh nature of the film). Lynch told him "No, no, no." He's not looking to replicate the past, and that's admirable on its face. My main issues with it are centered around what's actually on screen, not necessarily how different or inferior it is compared to the original. For the most part, I haven't felt that the ideas/plots in this show have been very intriguing. The new characters are totally flat, and the show has almost zero emotion or introspection from the characters, or an emotional connection with the viewer. The plot structure, while refreshingly unorthodox, doesn't allow anything to develop because it often takes 2-3 hours to return to a plot. I like many aspects of it such as its absurdist nature, but I've found at its core that it's lacking dramatically. However, I enjoyed Part 8.
Venus wrote:
No I didn't. I had hopes after ep 7 as it showed a bit of promise, but I felt they were dashed on the rocks with ep 8. To me, personally, it's felt heartbreaking watching what has been screened so far.
What is heartbreaking to you about it, out of interest? Is it just the missed potential of what I imagine you want (sorry to presume, but I imagine normal Cooper, 100% or close to 100% Twin Peaks setting), or is it the treatment of the pre-existing characters, the brutal violence etc? Or all of those things combined? I hate to say it but I think after episode 8 it's not going to get any better if you don't like it already. There will be hints of E7 cropping up but it will never settle into that format. There will always be a Lynch-Frost atomic wildcard waiting around the corner.
Hi Nikki. Nice to speak to you. Ah don't dash any remaining hopes. Everyone on this thread who has been a fan of the new series has said to hold on, we're only a third of the way through an 18 hr movie and things will get better and it will return more to the some of the feeling of the old TP. Now you're saying it's not going to get better if you don't like it already. So were they all wrong?
Hi Venus. Well, I can't say for sure! But I don't think so.
It depends what you're expecting. It's never going to snap straight back into the way things were (if that's what you wanted), but if you are hoping for more of the old things to return then I'm sure that will happen - just never completely. That's why I felt important to stress the idea there will always be episodes like E8 to counter E7. I hope you find things to love about the remaining 10 episodes.
[quote="Venus"]Everyone on this thread who has been a fan of the new series has said to hold on, we're only a third of the way through an 18 hr movie and things will get better and it will return more to the some of the feeling of the old TP.[quote="Venus"]
I think it's fair to say at this point that we're not getting the old feeling or atmosphere back. We might get glimpses of it - like in episode 7 - but now that the supernatural stuff has been visualized to such a degree, I think it would be almost impossible to make it a small town mystery again. Nevertheless, we never quite know what's in store for us, and I'm fairly optimistic that we can get a handful of episodes that might take us into that sweet spot again (I'm saying this as a fan of both episode 7 and 8, after the absolute nadir of episodes 5 and 6). Even if the series as a whole doesn't take us into the feelings of old, I hope that you will be rewarded with at least a few good hours of television. Who knows, maybe Lynch/Frost by then have been able to lure you in.
While loving The Return without much reserve at all, I can actually sympathise with some comments on this thread. Part of me does yearn for the good old apple-pie humanism with which the earlier incarnation of Twin Peaks explored human relationships, foibles and tawdry quirks. It was heartening to see compassion, tenderness and a basic human goodness well up in the hearts of people otherwise shocked by tragic, violent and mysterious events; how people broke down, fell apart and zipped themselves back together again, always growing, always changing in a rich tapestry of interconnectedness.
On the other hand, I like to watch the whole as well as the part. In the larger context of Lynch's output, those moments of tenderness are like tiny islands, and many of them set up only to be overturned. There's a basic weltschmertz at work in everything he sets his mind to. Loss, abrupt change and death are the most familiar faces, but every environment or community in Lynchland no matter how golly-gosh gee-wizz heartwarming it is just hums with a static buzz, threatening to erupt from within. Often violently. There's a nameless, faceless unfamiliarity just beneath the skin of every scene, every smile. And sometimes -- not always, but sometimes -- the apple-pie goofiness and kookiness is just so blatant that it becomes in itself horrific.
I'm not sure Twin Peaks the original series, with its medley of other hands at the tiller, made it as clear as Lynch desired that the sentimental, empathic (and what writers sometimes call, in a grotesque turn of phrase, the 'characterful') connection with viewers was only ever meant as a thing to be deconstructed, shown in all of its artifice, as nothing but one set of codes (the 'naturalistic') among others, but the wider context of his other work amply evidences this.
So, all things considered, I can relate to both sides of the argument that brews between this thread and the after-show offload of positivity. It seems to me to come down to whether I watch primarily for entertainment/distraction or for intellectual stimulation. They can converge at times of course, but I can honestly say that there are moments in the original run where I felt the show was slipping too close to the Invitation to Love 80s style daytime soap-opera it so ruthlessly extraneated and estranged; even put in more charitable terms there were also times when it felt like conventional, cathartic, feelgood fodder with no greater aim that to provide some kind of dramatic arc for a series of relationships we had invested in to greater or lesser degree. None of that felt groundbreaking. It plodded. I was disappointed that bold gestures, meta-theatrical devices, artistic ironies, tangled hierarchies and strange loops were not followed up on by subsequent directors but passed over. For me, The Return not only resumes some of these formalist threads but vindicates their usage twenty-odd years ago. It also vindicates FWWM, which was unfairly and savagely slated in some of the most vicious reviews ever penned just because Lynch was no longer the mandarin of the hour.
So... I dunno. I have the vestiges of something like 'false nostalgia' for the original show. But when I rewatch those episodes (and I have been) I've come to realise the thing I hankered for was not really there in the first place, except by some kind of directorial miscegenation. In turn, those moments defer to other moments from other shows, and so on. The object of longing was always lost, and only through the experience of having lost it can I relate it having any kind of existence -- a privative and ersatz existence at best. So I see this hankering as something like saudade or sensucht. I can't get that treasure back because I never had it; what I'm really remembering is a past experience of missing it, and only 'having' it in that moment insofar as that moment recalled some other, and so on. Maybe what I'm actually hankering for turns out to be inter-uterine bliss. This is my working hypothesis, at least.
Maybe I started out with being disappointed-in-advance, and was shocked to find myself really enjoying the new series. But its an enjoyment that is bittersweet. Perhaps the best kind!
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
Novalis wrote:
It seems to me to come down to whether I watch primarily for entertainment/distraction or for intellectual stimulation.
I grapple with the same dilemma. I find season 3 to be intellectually stimulating, hilariously funny in parts, visuually stunning, making the original run seem out-of-date in parts - but the emotional connection (and thereby the immediate entertainment value) is almost non-existent. It might be a deficiancy on my part, but i struggle to be engaged in Cooper's return to his intellectual self. There's more than enough in this show to keep me engaged till the bitter end, but I have a great deal of sympathy for the fans who feel they are been taken for a ride after being told that "it's happening again" and "that gum you like is going to come back in style".
All in all, I can totally relate what you are saying about expectations and nostalgia. Sometimes I wish I hadn't been so attached to the original run. 25 years of longing does something to you. I'm pretty sure that if I was 16-17 years old again, watching TP for the first time this season, I would be as equally floored as I was back in 1990.
Thank you for an interesting perspective on this season.
