Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[Mr. Reindeer]

Honestly, I think I just like stuff that I connect with. If other people love it too, it's a lucky bonus. I definitely don't take any snobbish pride in snubbing stuff just because it's popular; however, by the same token, my own personal tastes seem to rarely line up with the public at large.

I love Game of Thrones (although the show made me get into the books, and so I now spend most of my viewing time frustrated by the departures/oversimplifications/missed opportunities of the show), and the water-cooler aspect of that is great. It's nice to connect with something that has a huge cultural impact, especially since I'm not a sports guy, so my cocktail-party/watercooler/elevator chatter is limited. I loved Breaking Bad when no one had heard of it, and I was overjoyed when it became a cultural phenomenon. I didn't hold my "original fan" status over anyone's head, I was just happy to be able to share my passion with the average bloke on the street corner.

So, I guess my take is that, yes, there's definitely a joy in the communal "part of the club" aspect...but that really doesn't determine what works I connect with. It's just icing on the cake if something that I love happens to catch on. As much as I love talking GoT with my siblings/friends/coworkers, I'm finding it a lot harder to invest in GoT this season because I just want the show to end so I can rush my guests out of the house and watch TP alone, and then come on this board and discuss it with the few like-minded lunatics who are as invested as I am (whether they love it or are "profoundly disappointed" -- we're all in this experience together, and we all care about the show equally in our own ways, even if we're on opposite ends of the "enjoyment" spectrum).

[The Gazebo]

Honestly, I think I just like stuff that I connect with. If other people love it too, it's a lucky bonus. I definitely don't take any snobbish pride in snubbing stuff just because it's popular; however, by the same token, my own personal tastes seem to rarely line up with the public at large.

Yeah, I forgot to include that last part. I'm more versed in the history of music than cinema, and whenever an artist I like gradually becomes popular, it's usually because the music has become easier, more accessible - and by extension - often less interesting to me. Not because I by default shun anything popular.

[LurkerAtTheThreshold]

I don't know how the popularity would affect me. It certainly made me feel bad when this aired and everyone seemed to love it and I hated it. It wasn't a reaction to it being popular because it was still pretty much only Twin Peaks fans, hardly a mainstream audience. I just didn't resonate like everyone else seemed to.

One thing I know, is that I was very hyped that the show could be the same water cooler phenomenon as the original series. I suspected some sort of whodunnit and I was discussing the remnants of clues from the old series with friends before the new series aired.
As soon as it aired though, suddenly I had nothing much to say about Twin Peaks anymore. It certainly didn't create engaging conversation

i appreciate this and respect this opinion....it just makes me very sad

Sad in what way?

[wAtChLaR]

I don't know how the popularity would affect me. It certainly made me feel bad when this aired and everyone seemed to love it and I hated it. It wasn't a reaction to it being popular because it was still pretty much only Twin Peaks fans, hardly a mainstream audience. I just didn't resonate like everyone else seemed to.

One thing I know, is that I was very hyped that the show could be the same water cooler phenomenon as the original series. I suspected some sort of whodunnit and I was discussing the remnants of clues from the old series with friends before the new series aired.
As soon as it aired though, suddenly I had nothing much to say about Twin Peaks anymore. It certainly didn't create engaging conversation

i appreciate this and respect this opinion....it just makes me very sad

Sad in what way?

the lack of engagement for some old fans....i can't stop talking about the new series (aka water cooler)

[LurkerAtTheThreshold]

i appreciate this and respect this opinion....it just makes me very sad

Sad in what way?

the lack of engagement for some old fans....i can't stop talking about the new series (aka water cooler)

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of aspects of the new series that I like.
The blue rose investigations, and inclusion of Jeffries as a character, the Mitchum brothers, Ray and Darya, Hutch and the farm. Gordon Cole in the dimensional portal.

It's just I spend most of the time imagining how the ideas could have been handled better, rather than just enjoying it for what it is.

There are things to discuss, but the speculation seems to get bogged down by the mythology, where the old series was easy to discuss in inter character relationships, mystery and plot

[Rialto]

It's interesting watching the fan reaction, as a study in semiotics. But also baffling, the lengths people are going to, to ascribe a deeper meaning to this shallow, meaningless nonsense.

I don't know if you have received the memo or not, but no one elected you as the authority on what we should find higher meaning on, and what is nonsense.
I found deeper meaning in the scene where Bushnell understands Cooper's scribbles as I explained in the Episode 6 post. Others hated it, and didn't find anything about it.
Last time I went to Italy I was in Rome and I found myself in front of the Pietà. I had tears coming down my eyes. A guy next to me said, in Italian, "tutto qui?" (That's it?). Is either one of us an idiot or nonsensical? No. I am a devout Catholic and saw something. He probably just saw a nicely carved piece of stone. Both of us use art for our own purposes, based on our experiences, beliefs, and expectations.
Your post is somewhat offensive, there is no reason to belittle people who find meaning in things and enjoy coming together to analyze them.


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somewhat offensive? they are obviously a typical internet troll..YES i said troll

You're joining us here after 120 pages of discussion to convince us we're wrong to be having this discussion, and we just don't understand how great The Return is - and I'm the troll?

If you read the entire thread, you'll see at least 60 pages of fans of the new season, trying to convince us poor deluded souls in here that if we only looked at it this way, or that way, or waited till episode 18 is concluded, we'd realise how wrong we are.

When I want to see why people are liking it, get other views, I read the other, more positive threads. But I don't comment there, because no-one there wants or needs me telling them why I think they're wrong. They're enjoying themselves. Fair play.

That's why we have this thread. So leave me alone.

[Rialto]

And Yaxomomay, I'm genuinely sorry if I offended. I didn't at any point call fans idiots, but maybe my tone was too strong.

I do find it genuinely fascinating though - as a sometime tutor in semiotics to undergrads - the correlation between enjoyment of this season, and the ascribing of meaning/intention that simply isn't in the text, to a much greater level than I've ever seen. Does this make the lovers idiots? No. It's just an interesting phenomenon and I'm describing it without judgement.

I do judge the season though - not as an 'authority ', which is why I'm posting my subjective opinions (which is all they are) on an internet discussion group for people who don't like/have very mixed feelings about The Return - and not publishing them in a text book.

At the same time, if I can't say I find the new season to be nonsense here, without being called an offensive troll, where can I go?

[kleio]

Technically, this “club” here has far more members than the group I discussed the original TP with. The world was decidedly more limited and less immediate then.

The problem I see with this time around is the ridiculously specialized knowledge one has to have to glean meaning. Last time, all one needed was a reasonably functioning brain and a willingness to pick at details. As The Gazebo mentioned earlier, The Return lacks a way in for people who do do not have and do not want to get a degree in David Lynch Studies. I really just liked Twin Peaks the first time around was looking forward to seeing the new developments. Sadly, the plot is so thin that there’s not much left beyond the meta.

This time I’m also not sure how trustworthy the plot is. With the original, I had greater confidence in the coherence of the world of Twin Peaks. The time I spent kicking things around wouldn’t be wasted because there would be (some) answers provided or at least a signpost to suggest an answer. This time I can’t shake the feeling that Lynch is doing whatever strikes his fancy and my time would be wasted wandering down blind alleys.

At the same time, if I can't say I find the new season to be nonsense here, without being called an offensive troll, where can I go?

Like you, I have limited my comments to this thread and for the same reasons. I'm not interested in disrupting people's enjoyment of the event. I had given up on the idea of discussing it with anyone until I stumbled upon this board and this thread. My experience with the new material was so completely at odds with what others were experiencing that I didn't see any way of having a conversation. I miss IMDB because there really isn't a proper substitute for it. It was general enough that multiple levels of interest could participate, but there were enough specialists hanging out to answer more detailed questions.

[baxter]

I'd love to speak to someone who had never seen any TP except for the Return. Perhaps they still get a lot out of it, because they haven't been exposed to anything this "off-the-charts weird" before. Maybe the lack of old threads that might or might not be driving the plot actually enhances the experience.Who knows.

Like you, I sincerely doubt there is a way in at all for people who aren't massive fans already.

[yaxomoxay]

You're joining us here after 120 pages of discussion to convince us we're wrong to be having this discussion, and we just don't understand how great The Return is - and I'm the troll?

Actually I joined many pages ago - if I remember correctly after Episode 1 and 2, to defend most of you guys from the inevitable attack of many fans (aka trolls). I mentioned multiple time that liking this series or not is totally subjective, and it's your God given right to despise it, or love it.

If you read the entire thread, you'll see at least 60 pages of fans of the new season, trying to convince us poor deluded souls in here that if we only looked at it this way, or that way, or waited till episode 18 is concluded, we'd realise how wrong we are.

True, and most of those posts are nonsense. However let me point out that this is yours (that is, of those Disappointed) to keep clean. Trolls will inevitably get here.

When I want to see why people are liking it, get other views, I read the other, more positive threads. But I don't comment there, because no-one there wants or needs me telling them why I think they're wrong. They're enjoying themselves. Fair play.
That's why we have this thread. So leave me alone.

But you didn't stop at "I don't like it, they do. They are suckers." You criticized one of the most important traits of the human being, that is trying to attach meaning to things. That is the offensive part (especially since we're talking about art). A chair is a chair, but if it's the XIV century chair where all rulers of Britain are crowned then the chair is not simply a chair. As a student of semiotics you should know the importance of symbols, so it's really puzzles me that you belittle people who are looking for those meanings (independently of finding them or not)... stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus.


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[yaxomoxay]

And Yaxomomay, I'm genuinely sorry if I offended. I didn't at any point call fans idiots, but maybe my tone was too strong.

No problem. My reaction was probably too strong also.

I do find it genuinely fascinating though - as a sometime tutor in semiotics to undergrads - the correlation between enjoyment of this season, and the ascribing of meaning/intention that simply isn't in the text, to a much greater level than I've ever seen. Does this make the lovers idiots? No. It's just an interesting phenomenon and I'm describing it without judgement.

But as a tutor in semiotics you also know that you can't go around this. I will look at Dougie and give him a meaning, or at least I will attempt to.
On the other hand, I am not an expert of semiotics so I won't oversell myself. I read some of Eco's books on it and a couple of introductory texts on it. If you will, I also read Fulcanelli's book on cathedrals; not really semiotics per se, but a fascinating exploration in deeper meanings of things.

At the same time, if I can't say I find the new season to be nonsense here, without being called an offensive troll, where can I go?

Oh, you can absolutely call the season nonsense, horrible, awful, and use all the negative adjectives you can think of.
From your original post I gathered that you called the season nonsense in a way that implied that those that are looking for something deeper are basically idiots as it was attached to a sentence about those fans that spend time on analyzing each frame over and over.




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[Metamorphia]

Hey folks!

Dropping in quickly to say hello (don't worry, Metamorphia, you'll be rid of me again after this!)

So, the pace has improved somewhat and I've liked aspects of what I've seen this month, but I feel like I'm watching an assemble edit. There's so much glacially-paced material that scenes genuinely requiring the trademark sinister Lynchian pauses don't stand out as well as they should. Many times, I've found myself watching cute scenes with, say, Andy and Lucy, such as the one where they decide on chair colours, thinking 'this would be a fun deleted scene.') David Lynch and Miguel Ferrer are, for me, the highlight of the show, rivalled by Truman and Hawk. I could seriously watch a Gordon Cole solo TV show. The moment where Gordon tells Albert that he's worried about him is desperately sad in the context of real life events.

I think it gets 'stressful' getting too embroiled in discussions about the show while it's still meandering on screen. I miss the banter and the people here, but we're dealing with a 'marmite' show and I'm content to save myself for discussions post-part 18. My big regret is that I didn't wait until all 18 episodes had been shown. For me, this is a show I'd have watched from beginning to end more than once had it been delivered Netflix-style. Whatever else, this deeply frustrating, but intriguing show has wheedled its way into my thoughts enough that I'll certainly buy the Blu-ray and watch it through again. I'd even watch a season four (and probably still moan about it while it's on.)

Anyway, six episodes to go. I hope we get to see Coop back soon. Take care, y'all.

Sorry to bump! But welcome back

[yaxomoxay]

I'd love to speak to someone who had never seen any TP except for the Return. Perhaps they still get a lot out of it, because they haven't been exposed to anything this "off-the-charts weird" before. Maybe the lack of old threads that might or might not be driving the plot actually enhances the experience.Who knows.

Like you, I sincerely doubt there is a way in at all for people who aren't massive fans already.

I am observing an interesting phenomenon at my home.
In my family we're four people. Me, my wife, my 15yo teenager, and my 11yo (just turned 11). It is incredible to me to see how differently we react on many things that happen in the show.

I am the only TP fan, meaning that I am the only one that watched the originals back then (when I was 11). My wife watched the original series years ago when I told her about it; she doesn't like the original episodes that much, with few exceptions. One scene that actually "woke me up" (I point at myself, and say "Dougie Jones") is the one in which Candie hits the Mitchum with the remote. We had, literally, four different reactions. While Candie was chasing the fly, I was thinking, oh my Lynch is going to do it. When Candie hit Mitchum, I just grinned. My wife said "gosh she's stupid." My 15yo laughed for a few seconds, and my 11yo laughed so hard that he wanted to watch the scene again. That scene made me realize that no matter what, how we see this series (and probably not only this series) will be inevitably filtered by our own experiences, age, and external factors. I know it might sound obvious, but it also told me that there is no way that I can enjoy a TP as I enjoyed it when I was 11 (and that's why I am glad that Lynch/Frost went this way, as I explained in another post).
The original series also delivered differently. To prepare my kids to S3 I made them watch S1 and S2 in the past few months. The reactions:
-S1: I cry at Laura Palmer's theme as Bobby would do; it really brings out memories, and nostalgia is indeed powerful. Wife can't really understand the fascination, she watches it. My 15yo liked the pilot, really wasn't into it and watched it distractedly. My 11yo watched S1 religiously, learned all the names etc. (surprisingly he catches many references in S3).
- S2: I still cry at Laura's theme, but only in the Leland era; I usually fall asleep in the second part with the exception of the last episode. Wife, she can't stand the whole season, last episode is the exception. My 15yo surprisingly enjoyed the first half of second season more than the first season (pilot excluded), and he despises, hates, doesn't even want to watch the second half of the season. I basically had to force him. He enjoyed the last episode. My 11yo, loved the first half of the season to the point that for days he repeated "it is happening again." He despised the second half (post Leland), and as his brother I had to basically force him to watch it. He watched all the episodes but he was clearly distracted, and he loved the last episodes.
-S3: I like it, as it is known but I will reserve my final judgment until the end of episode 18. My wife likes it more than the originals, but she doesn't like the weird stuff; she doesn't like episode 8 for example. 15yo and 11yo love season 3. They beg me to watch the episodes, and they want to re watch some of the episodes (episode 8 left my 11yo quiet, and my 15yo said "I have no idea about what happened"). They keep making Dougie jokes, and they quote parts of the series. Often they actually talk about it between themselves, while this didn't happen in the originals.

[The Gazebo]

My 15yo surprisingly enjoyed the first half of second season more than the first season (pilot excluded), and he despises, hates, doesn't even want to watch the second half of the season. I basically had to force him. He enjoyed the last episode. My 11yo, loved the first half of the season to the point that for days he repeated "it is happening again." He despised the second half (post Leland), and as his brother I had to basically force him to watch it. He watched all the episodes but he was clearly distracted, and he loved the last episodes.

That's interesting. Did you brief them about the brilliance of early season 2, the subsequent dip in quality and the late resurgence?

[yaxomoxay]

My 15yo surprisingly enjoyed the first half of second season more than the first season (pilot excluded), and he despises, hates, doesn't even want to watch the second half of the season. I basically had to force him. He enjoyed the last episode. My 11yo, loved the first half of the season to the point that for days he repeated "it is happening again." He despised the second half (post Leland), and as his brother I had to basically force him to watch it. He watched all the episodes but he was clearly distracted, and he loved the last episodes.

That's interesting. Did you brief them about the brilliance of early season 2, the subsequent dip in quality and the late resurgence?

Not that I can remember.
After they began complaining about S2 (which surprisingly was right after Leland died), I told them to keep watching because even if the following episodes weren't great, good stuff was going to happen by the end.


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