Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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SpookySculder
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby SpookySculder » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:13 pm

People can poke fun all they want but the fact remains that those of us in this thread are disappointed overall with how season 3 has panned out so far. And if you read the thread, you'll see it's NOT because we're stuck in the 90s or looking for logical explanations to the story. I think everyone here has voiced legitimate criticisms about The Return and the interesting thing is we're all still watching it. :D
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:47 pm

Rex wrote:In the shirt, Cooper was a true Bookhouse Boy, one of the inside team.

To each his own. We all have a specific idea about how the plot should have evolved. This was mine.

Sorry if anyone is pissed off by this or thinks I'm trolling, but this is the "disappointed" thread.


I don't think you're trolling and I agree with you. As to someone commenting Cooper wearing those shirts making him seem vulnerable and stripped of power, well, that was sort of the point of that particular stretch of episodes.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Framed_Angel » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:55 pm

SpookySculder wrote:People can poke fun all they want but the fact remains that those of us in this thread are disappointed overall with how season 3 has panned out so far. And if you read the thread, you'll see it's NOT because we're stuck in the 90s or looking for logical explanations to the story. I think everyone here has voiced legitimate criticisms about The Return and the interesting thing is we're all still watching it. :D
Are you referencing the GIF that WatchLAr posted?
It's out of context without the subredditor's title/ heading: "TP Alignment Chart For People Who May Have Never Seen Any David Lynch Before" (emphasis mine) https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... eople_who/
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby wAtChLaR » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:58 pm

Framed_Angel wrote:
SpookySculder wrote:People can poke fun all they want but the fact remains that those of us in this thread are disappointed overall with how season 3 has panned out so far. And if you read the thread, you'll see it's NOT because we're stuck in the 90s or looking for logical explanations to the story. I think everyone here has voiced legitimate criticisms about The Return and the interesting thing is we're all still watching it. :D
Are you referencing the GIF that WatchLAr posted?
It's out of context without the subredditor's title/ heading: "TP Alignment Chart For People Who May Have Never Seen Any David Lynch Before" (emphasis mine) https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... eople_who/


i don't even know what to say :lol:
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby wAtChLaR » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:59 pm

Framed_Angel wrote:
SpookySculder wrote:People can poke fun all they want but the fact remains that those of us in this thread are disappointed overall with how season 3 has panned out so far. And if you read the thread, you'll see it's NOT because we're stuck in the 90s or looking for logical explanations to the story. I think everyone here has voiced legitimate criticisms about The Return and the interesting thing is we're all still watching it. :D
Are you referencing the GIF that WatchLAr posted?
It's out of context without the subredditor's title/ heading: "TP Alignment Chart For People Who May Have Never Seen Any David Lynch Before" (emphasis mine) https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... eople_who/

always out of context.....i truly am....
thank you for this post....taught me so much
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rex » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:25 am

I don't think people should be blasted and teased in this thread because they don't consider this Lynch's best work.

You've got the whole rest of the forum to discuss your satisfaction with it.

Giving those who are disappointed in it a hard time in a thread specifically for them really is trolling.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:17 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Mallard wrote:Regarding Cooper, and speaking as someone who hasn't been disappointed with the series, I do really miss that character. Looking back for the last 9 episodes, it really does seem a shame that we couldn't have gotten some "damn good" Coop a bit earlier than it appears we are going to.

Having said that, I also wonder if that was ever even really possible. In fact, I worried before the season even started that having the old Coop back in action might end up being a bust. Could an older Maclachlan still pull that character off in a satisfying way? (I hope we still get to find out.).


Honestly, Kyle's performance felt off even in FWWM -- as did Ferrer's and Lynch's. All three feel less quirky and more like traditional FBI agents in the film, with their eccentricities far less pronounced than on the series. For Gordon and Albert, this progression has continued on TP:TR -- while it's great seeing Ferrer and DKL back in these roles, Albert is grim and dedicated to work with his insults seeming far more resigned/half-hearted than in the old show, whereas Gordon alternates between also being grim/dedicated, and being a charming/joyful caricature of DKL (but lacking Gordon's distinctive wide-eyed goofiness from the old show). I'm still a tad mixed on Albert, probably moreso than any other returning character....while Ferrer did great work, and I can accept this interpretation as a run-down version of the character a quarter-century on, part of me wishes he were given more witty/biting dialogue, even if the delivery remained the same (Gordon's repeated apologies in advance feel like hyperbole because Albert is never particularly insulting).


Yeah, Albert's attempted insults feel a little bit forced. Age and illness is difficult to hide, and I can only assume that it was hard work for Ferrer. As for whether an older Kyle could pull off the old Coop in a satisfying way? My guess is probably not, although Kyle seems fresh and quick-witted in the various interviews. A year or so ago Sacha Baron Cohen appeared as Borat on a talkshow, and even though it's not been that many years since the movie, something felt off, like he was struggling. I suddenly didn't believe the character. I think it's all about reinventing a 25 year older Cooper, removed from the world for so long. It's not easy to find the right angle with which to portray the character.

Now, while having a reduced Cooper is a bit of a disappointment, it's not my major beef with the show. Nor did I have any plot expectations. No, my clenched fist comes from having Dougie in Vegas. The brightness, the office landscape, the various hitmen - everything feels very anti-Peaks. I was all right with the first two hours, and the beginning of ep 3, but I still remember the despair when watching Cooper and Jade driving the Jeep, realizing how different this version would be (I was mostly unaware of the out-of-town spoilers). It took 7 hours before we got any sense of forebodement, which to me was one of the key ingredients of the original.

Now, It's still a pretty f**kin' incredible show. Ask me to name my favourite scenes, and I'd probably have a hundred to choose from. But so far, the overall experience is less than the sum of its parts.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby douglasb » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:39 am

Performance issues aside, no-one is the same after 25 years. We change in ways that we're conscious of, and we're different in ways we can't catch. Imagine meeting someone you went to school with for the first time in 25 years. You think they'll be the same - and they just won't.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:59 am

Rex wrote:Wasn't Ferrer battling the illness that would kill him while he was filming?


People keep pointing to this as the reason for the more lethargic delivery, and that certainly might be part of it. But my main issue isn't with the performance -- I could totally buy this performance as a more tired, burned out, world-weary version of the character a quarter of a century on. After all, this is a guy who's angry pretty much all the time. That takes its toll on you. I wouldn't have even guessed the actor was sick if I were viewing the performance in a bubble.

My issue is that the WRITING for the character isn't as snappy (and this was true in FWWM as well). It's almost like DKL has consciously rejected that impossibly-witty "hardboiled noir patter meets Don Rickles putdown" dialogue that was Albert's trademark. Granted, Albert always felt more like a Frost/Peyton confection, I can understand DKL feeling like that style doesn't fit with his version of TP (particularly THIS version), and wanting to go with something a bit more naturalistic. But I still miss the original version, and don't think the dialogue for new Albert feels like a particularly natural evolution of the character a lot of the time.

(It is worth noting that DKL cowrote and also directed Albert's first appearance, as well as of course Episodes 8 and 9, where he left Albert's dialogue largely untouched while seemingly changing the scripted dialogue pretty liberally in many other scenes. So it seems like he actively enjoyed the more overwritten version of the character at SOME point, but that seems to have dissipated even by FWWM.)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby SpookySculder » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:56 am

Framed_Angel wrote:
SpookySculder wrote:People can poke fun all they want but the fact remains that those of us in this thread are disappointed overall with how season 3 has panned out so far. And if you read the thread, you'll see it's NOT because we're stuck in the 90s or looking for logical explanations to the story. I think everyone here has voiced legitimate criticisms about The Return and the interesting thing is we're all still watching it. :D
Are you referencing the GIF that WatchLAr posted?
It's out of context without the subredditor's title/ heading: "TP Alignment Chart For People Who May Have Never Seen Any David Lynch Before" (emphasis mine) https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... eople_who/


Sorry. I was actually referring more to the post he/she made before that...The chart may be funny on it's own, I guess, but combined with the last post, I felt I needed to say it. The thing is, I'm seeing a lot of people (not so much on this board, thankfully) that act totally incensed that some of us aren't 100% happy with The Return. Like everyone thinks this has to be some perfect piece of work. I don't understand it, really. We are all fans of TP or Lynch and TP. We are interpreting things differently. Not everyone is going to like or dislike the same things. And in all honesty, I really believe it should make for good discussions to have different opinions about what we're seeing, liking or disliking. Instead, I'm seeing a lot of standoffish folks who feel the need to defend Lynch/Frost by finding ways of insinuating we're somehow stupid or not understanding the show. I'm trying to avoid that nonsense by coming to this thread to openly voice my likes (and most dislikes of recent episodes) without that kind of reaction.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Guardian » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:55 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Guardian wrote:For instance, episode 12 must perhaps be the one which the most people have disliked the most so far.
But I actually got surprised, and even liked it a little (for an S3 episode). It still has all the basic problems that the whole The Return has had.
But I actually think it's the best one so far. Grace' performance must be the best one I've seen this whole season. Made me think that the Return perhaps isn't a parody mockery show after all...
For almost the first time during S3 I actually cared for and got interested in a character. And believed what was being shown.

So, not only am I shocked that The Return turned out being the way it is, but also the diversity of what people enjoy and what they dislike / hate in it.


I think there's a near-universal consensus that Sarah's scenes (and Grace's incredible performance) are among the highlights of this entire season. Nobody has expressed dislike regarding those scenes (ok, tehnically, I think one poster did this morning). The disappointment with Part 12 stems from other scenes. One great sequence doesn't necessarily salvage an otherwise mediocre hour (a sentiment I imagine many on this thread can relate to).


Yes, ok, let me tell what other scenes I liked in part 12.

I thought the first scene in part 12 with Albert, Gordon and Tammy was ok.
Lynch even added a new piece of nice and moody Badalamenti music, which I thought gave the scene more depth.
It was a refreshing to hear after so much 'dead air' in the previous episodes.
However, the "Let's rock!" comment from Diane felt unnatural and strange.

Small scenes that I thought was ok, but seemingly didn't add anything to the story includes Jerry running out of the woods, and Carl Rodd scene; good performances.
Dougie-Coop getting hit by a ball was short, but kind of funny (to me). It was abruptly cut to Twin Peaks again, so that made me laugh.

Ben and Frank scene was slow and long, but I thought the acting and dialog was good.

Gordon and the french woman scene was slow and silly, but in a good way I suppose. She took her time, smiling and flirting. I thought her acting was good. Lynch's performance was not so good.
I laughed a couple of times during this scene. (It's all part of the DKL joke show I guess). It doesn't add anything to the story, but in a show where I almost have given up on the story anyways, I just try enjoy it on a scene to scene basis.
It didn't feel like those other "filler" scenes in previous episodes, where nothing happens, like floor sweeping and such.
I guess the typical pace in this season is eighter slow, very slow or super slow.

Gordon and Albert talking afterwards was ok. It's kind of funny when Albert just stands there with his stone face looking at Gordon when he tries to tell a joke.

The hitmen killing the warden almost reminded me of some Tarantino scene; they talk about eating, while killing a man like it's nothing. And the actors were in Tarantino's latest film as well.
It was ok, I guess.

The Audrey and Charlie scene was slow and long, but at least funny to me. Charlie is calm and only concerned with his paperwork and making up excuses, while Audrey is freaking out.
The whole scene is pretty absurd, and funny. I like both of the performances in the scene.

So about 43 minutes of ok scenes isn't bad for an episode of The Return in my book.

And no very bad CGI in this part, which is a plus.
Also, some atmospheric shots of mountains, trees and fog, which is always welcome, allthough I REALLY miss how it looks on analog film in the original series.

What scenes I didn't like:

I didn't like that they used old still footage of the hospital hallway at 16:11, and just zoomed in on it. Feels cheap to me.
Ben talking to himself about the bike felt silly, unnatural and soo slow.
Dr. Amp scene was annoying (it was annoying the first time), especially since it's just re-used footage. It's a total time waster for me.
The Road house scene feel like an unnecessary and uninteresting filler scene once again, and is pretty annoying, except for the music which was ok.
So glad to have the fast-forward button.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Trudy Chelgren » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:07 am

I feel like doing this.

Things I've liked:

- The more emotional scenes; be it the uplifting ending of Part 11, Cooper drawing on the case files, Carl Rodd's compassion, Laura's orb or Bobby, Shelly and Becky in the
RR. There are too many to list here. I feel they are some of the most rich and moving parts of Twin Peaks as a whole.
- The performances; particularly Kyle, Dana, Seyfried, Brent Briscoe, Belushi and Knepper, and Matthew Lillard in Parts 1 & 2. On the whole, the performances have been
stunning for me. Sometimes I've been left feeling cold, or unconvinced, but there are some career best, and Lynch best, performances here.
- The lodge, and it's new perspectives. The more 'infinite' feeling this iteration of Twin Peaks evokes.
- The way it can say so much with few words.
- Parts 1 & 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, & 11 have all been beautiful, moving, scary and visceral parts of Twin Peaks for me.
- The odd visual effects, part of me is kind of fond of Lynch's digital phase.


Things I haven't liked:

- The spotty Roadhouse performances. Some incredible, some awful. I feel the quality of the song can go a long way to defining what I walk away from the part feeling.
- The push-pull momentum. The pacing is totally bizarre, obviously. I loved Inland Empire, I think it's one of the most original, brilliant films of this century, but in a 'TV
show' setting this similar kind of pacing can make for frustrating viewing. When it's on, it's so incredible, and when it's off, it feels off for me.
- The emphasis (seemingly) on needlessly intricate, contrived, Frostian exposition (coordinates, secret messages et al) over deep feeling and characterization. A little too
much emphasis on anal, reaching dissection of every tiny detail sometimes.
- Albert's sometimes lackluster writing.
- The beloved characters sometimes being used as mouthpieces for story advancement, rather than being explored as three-dimensional; Tammy to an extent, Betty
Briggs, etc.
- The introduction of too many new characters with little purpose, (seemingly) and fleeting involvement. Seems a little over-egged.
- The lack of a unifying atmosphere, everything seems a little fractured and not quite cohesive to me for now.
- I do miss the analogue film, and I loved how Inland Empire looked, and this is not quite one or the other. It's a little unbalanced. Sometimes totally incredible, and
sometimes weirdly unremarkable
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Guardian » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:19 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Honestly, Kyle's performance felt off even in FWWM -- as did Ferrer's and Lynch's. All three feel less quirky and more like traditional FBI agents in the film, with their eccentricities far less pronounced than on the series. For Gordon and Albert, this progression has continued on TP:TR -- while it's great seeing Ferrer and DKL back in these roles, Albert is grim and dedicated to work with his insults seeming far more resigned/half-hearted than in the old show, whereas Gordon alternates between also being grim/dedicated, and being a charming/joyful caricature of DKL (but lacking Gordon's distinctive wide-eyed goofiness from the old show). I'm still a tad mixed on Albert, probably moreso than any other returning character....while Ferrer did great work, and I can accept this interpretation as a run-down version of the character a quarter-century on, part of me wishes he were given more witty/biting dialogue, even if the delivery remained the same (Gordon's repeated apologies in advance feel like hyperbole because Albert is never particularly insulting).

I guess this is all a long-winded way of saying I agree with you. :lol: Even in 1992, it seems either Kyle was unable to recapture Coop's persona precisely, or Lynch & Kyle simply weren't interested in doing so, and this seems to extend to all of the FBI characters.

Yes, I have to agree with you that the FBI characters felt diffrent already in FWWM.
But then, almost everyone and everything felt different in FWWM compared to the series.

I don't think it's because there was so much time between filming the last episode in S2 and filming FWWM so the actors forgot their characters.
I mean, I think both E.29 and FWWM was shot in 1991, and the pause between filming S1 and S2 was actually longer.
So I rather think it's the writing/directing that is the cause.
Lynch just wanted a different feel to FWWM, or more like 'Twin Peaks on barbed wire'.
Some of it translated into The Return. Gordon now seemingly has some of the same psychic traits as Cooper had in the series.
Albert is not that witty and insulting. The pace has gone down drastically, which takes the edge of some of the dialog and characters, but it can also add depth to a dialog. If pace is too slow though, it kind of feels parodic or even amateurish.

If one looks at the "Georgia coffee" commercials from 1993, Cooper seems like himself again, quick and quirky, although somewhat parodic.
So I believe the changes in characters are more to do with the writing/directing, rather than actors forgetting their role.
But of course, now it has been 25+ years since last filming, so that probably will impact the actors memory also.

I would also like to add that I really miss some witty and biting comments from Albert. It spiced up the old show.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Guardian » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:50 am

About another character change from the original to this Season, I just thought about how evil-Coop was depicted in the last episode (e29) where he laughs and smiles in an evil crazy way all the time, also in the last scene where he smashes the mirror.
But in this season I don't think I have seen him smile once.
I wonder if it's for the best, or not. Hard to say, but it makes the evil-coop character less colorful.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mallard » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:13 pm

The Gazebo wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Mallard wrote:Regarding Cooper, and speaking as someone who hasn't been disappointed with the series, I do really miss that character. Looking back for the last 9 episodes, it really does seem a shame that we couldn't have gotten some "damn good" Coop a bit earlier than it appears we are going to.

Having said that, I also wonder if that was ever even really possible. In fact, I worried before the season even started that having the old Coop back in action might end up being a bust. Could an older Maclachlan still pull that character off in a satisfying way? (I hope we still get to find out.).


Honestly, Kyle's performance felt off even in FWWM -- as did Ferrer's and Lynch's. All three feel less quirky and more like traditional FBI agents in the film, with their eccentricities far less pronounced than on the series. For Gordon and Albert, this progression has continued on TP:TR -- while it's great seeing Ferrer and DKL back in these roles, Albert is grim and dedicated to work with his insults seeming far more resigned/half-hearted than in the old show, whereas Gordon alternates between also being grim/dedicated, and being a charming/joyful caricature of DKL (but lacking Gordon's distinctive wide-eyed goofiness from the old show). I'm still a tad mixed on Albert, probably moreso than any other returning character....while Ferrer did great work, and I can accept this interpretation as a run-down version of the character a quarter-century on, part of me wishes he were given more witty/biting dialogue, even if the delivery remained the same (Gordon's repeated apologies in advance feel like hyperbole because Albert is never particularly insulting).


Yeah, Albert's attempted insults feel a little bit forced. Age and illness is difficult to hide, and I can only assume that it was hard work for Ferrer. As for whether an older Kyle could pull off the old Coop in a satisfying way? My guess is probably not, although Kyle seems fresh and quick-witted in the various interviews. A year or so ago Sacha Baron Cohen appeared as Borat on a talkshow, and even though it's not been that many years since the movie, something felt off, like he was struggling. I suddenly didn't believe the character. I think it's all about reinventing a 25 year older Cooper, removed from the world for so long. It's not easy to find the right angle with which to portray the character.

Now, while having a reduced Cooper is a bit of a disappointment, it's not my major beef with the show. Nor did I have any plot expectations. No, my clenched fist comes from having Dougie in Vegas. The brightness, the office landscape, the various hitmen - everything feels very anti-Peaks. I was all right with the first two hours, and the beginning of ep 3, but I still remember the despair when watching Cooper and Jade driving the Jeep, realizing how different this version would be (I was mostly unaware of the out-of-town spoilers). It took 7 hours before we got any sense of forebodement, which to me was one of the key ingredients of the original.

Now, It's still a pretty f**kin' incredible show. Ask me to name my favourite scenes, and I'd probably have a hundred to choose from. But so far, the overall experience is less than the sum of its parts.
.

Yeah, Vegas doesn't do much for me as a setting, either. It does work as a reflection of DougieCoop: polished on the outside, but vapid and soulless on the inside. But I would have skipped the metaphor altogether and left the Vegas idea on the cutting room floor.

Now I do think Twin Peaks 2017 (the town, not the show) works as a reflection of DoppelCoop: everything basically looks the same, but it's no longer inviting, warm, or approachable. Just a bleak, dark, dreadful entity. And it makes sense: Twin Peaks as we knew it could not have survived the darkness that was exposed by the events of the original series. In short, Twin Peaks isn't the same this time around becuase it couldn't be; that ship sailed as soon as it was realized that the town had been blindly ignorant to the tragedy that was Laura Palmer's existence.
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