Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Tailsun
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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Tailsun » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:52 pm

Venus wrote:
referendum wrote:this is the thing that has confused me about this group. there is a sensible conversation going on then suddenly someone mentions star wars. Is the point here that the first three star wars films were great then the re - run was a total pile of shit which only fans would have any interest in? Is this the comparison? Same with Alien. THe first ones were great and covenant was a giant steaming pile of bollocks.

Are you guys really trying to compare TP 3 to these relaunches of hollywood blockbusters?


Lol no, someone brought it up so I commented :) Love your line 'there is a sensible conversation going on then suddenly someone mentions Star Wars'. V true Though I'm partial to a Star Wars diversion every now and then.

Tailsun - completely off topic but where are you vacationing? Just being nosey!
No worries! I'm in London. First time to Europe (and apart from Canada, my first time out of the US. And I'm from New England so that barely counts).

What a breath of fresh air! This is a short trip but I'd come back in a heartbeat.
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Tailsun
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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Tailsun » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:56 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
AhmedKhalifa wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
I don't know about Frost's upcoming book. TSHOTP was a grand disappointment to me. It went on and on about Lewis and Clark, Crowley, and Owl-like men, and most of the book was actually about Douglas Milford's adventures investigating UFOs! Twin Peaks got the short end of the stick. I think Frost is guilty of the same thing Lynch is with TPTR: Each basically used the brand name of TP to pursue their own obsessions and interests and sell it under the name of the only mass marketable product either of them was ever involved with. Whether they like it or not, TP is what they will both be forever known for in the eyes of the public, and they both know that. Lynch piggybacked on the popularity and prestige of the original series to basically make an 18 hour love letter to himself and things that turn him on, packaging it all as a continuation of TP, when, in truth, it was hardly that at all. It is at best a spin-off, in which the original characters didn't behave like themselves, or like human beings, for that matter. And Frost used TPs popularity to write a book that waxed poetic about his interest in boring X-Files types shenanigans, with only less than half the book about the residents of TP and their stories. Case in point: How's Annie???


Kudos for this excellent post! I'd add as a proof of this lazy, irresponsible, devil-may-care attitude towards the original property a massive amount of retcons plaguing the book (and, to some extent, the series) - and bafflingly careless behavior when being called on it, the one that actually insists on spreading the mystery around these inconsistencies as an attempt to make some big deal out of it, as if there's some massive grand scheme on the part of the creator(s) behind it all that will explain all the stuff they got wrong, when we know now that didn't turn out to be the case.
I think I've made it half way through The Secret History so far. Not long enough to reach the part about Twin Peaks the town at any rate.

I keep saying I'm going to come back to it, but I don't know. And given how little it seems to connect to TR I don't see much of a reason to any time soon. On the plus side the hardcover version looks beautiful, and my copy is signed. So it's a nice little object to have. I'll be waiting to hear about the upcoming book before I spend any time with it.
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Venus
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Re: RE: Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:01 pm

Tailsun wrote:
Venus wrote:
referendum wrote:this is the thing that has confused me about this group. there is a sensible conversation going on then suddenly someone mentions star wars. Is the point here that the first three star wars films were great then the re - run was a total pile of shit which only fans would have any interest in? Is this the comparison? Same with Alien. THe first ones were great and covenant was a giant steaming pile of bollocks.

Are you guys really trying to compare TP 3 to these relaunches of hollywood blockbusters?


Lol no, someone brought it up so I commented :) Love your line 'there is a sensible conversation going on then suddenly someone mentions Star Wars'. V true Though I'm partial to a Star Wars diversion every now and then.

Tailsun - completely off topic but where are you vacationing? Just being nosey!
No worries! I'm in London. First time to Europe (and apart from Canada, my first time out of the US. And I'm from New England so that barely counts).

What a breath of fresh air! This is a short trip but I'd come back in a heartbeat.


Ah welcome to dear old Blighty! Hope you're enjoying the rain! There's nothing quite like the smell of fresh rainwater on London pavements. New England! Have been there myself Did a grand tour. Loved it.

Sorry everyone, back on topic now...
When Jupiter and Saturn meet...
Cipher
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:32 pm

AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:Warning: strong Laura/BOB material ahead.

From Laura’s diary, talking about her early childhood:

Sometime he would cut me between my legs, and other times he would cut me inside my mouth. Always tiny little cuts, hundreds of tiny little cuts. I had to use a flashlight in the bathroom or else my parents might wake up and see the light, and I’d be in worse trouble then.

Some nights he would make me sticky. Rub himself very fast, and he would say that I had to hold the sticky in my hands, close my eyes, and recite this little poem while I licked my hands clean. I only remember a little. This hasn’t happened for a long time, the sticky. He made made me say:

The little bitch
Is awfully sorry
The little bitch
Drinks you up

(I can’t remember more, except the last line.)

In this seed is death indeed.


Now think of the monster responsible for this being dispensed with by Green Glove.

A suggestion for anyone who doesn’t have a problem with this artistically or ethically. Maybe get a friend round who’s never watched any Lynch works and ask their thoughts about it.

The real point behind all my strong criticism: such storylines suggest that something unhealthy has happened to David Lynch. His artistic and ethical judgement can’t be trusted any more. Nor can his motives. The above storyline isn’t just bad art, or disastrous art. There’s something more that’s hard to name. Camp amorality taken to its limits? Something like that. For years Lynch has been called an insidious corrupting force with the critics wrapped round his little finger. I still don’t believe that’s valid criticism of the director who made the TP pilot or The Straight Story. But the one who made The Return?

Through her father a demon repeatedly takes an infant to the woods for cumplay, slices her privates, rapes her for years before bludgeoning her, her friend and her cousin to death, and his storyline’s climax isn’t just played for bellylaughs but as pinball/pantomime farce, and the critics give a standing ovation?

I don’t have much respect for the man behind storylines like this or the vicious portrayal of older women, or the incredible narcissism, someone who seems at best irresponsible and a bit pathetic and at worst maybe even something darker. And to paraphrase Kenneth Tynan, I’m not sure I could like someone who admires this stuff. Someone who likes Wally Brando or Tammy, sure – that’s just different taste. But someone who applauds storylines like BOB’s has probably been numbed and beguiled so far out into the wilfully perverse periphery that they’ve lost their moorings, or so it seems to me. Twin Peaks was always a way to click with people socially, but I doubt the same will be true of Green Glove whacking the perpetrator of Laura's cuts to the sound of Lynch’s sniggers.

So it’s time to move on and have a weekend cleanse with Spirit of the Beehive and Cria Cuervos and other healthy stuff. Then to learn this series’ anti-lessons, apply them in our own work and go on as though it never happened, and if possible to warn people away from even hearing about Green Glove v BOB and the retcon. Stories are already circulating about the upset they are causing.

And it’s true. The Return never happened. It was just the nightmare of a once great artist whose real work we’ll always have.

Thanks to the main contributors to this thread for keeping Twin Peaks commentary honest and moored. Over & out.

If I can weigh in on why I don't have a problem with this, while believing Laura's abuse narrative to be at the heart of Peaks, it's because the monster responsible for that isn't dispatched by a green glove. He's in the Red Room at the beginning of the season, asking Cooper to find his daughter.

Bob is a great symbol and shorthand for cruelty, but he's also a cartoonish externalization of it. At the very least, he has the capacity to be (and I think the exposition surrounding the Lodge mythos and Blue Rose cases this season transitioned him into that realm; hell, maybe 25 years of iconography and fan theorizing had done that on their own). I'd take issue with it if he were still given the same weight as an externalized evil -- or if a greater and more enigmatic darkness didn't take his place by the end of the story, or if we ended on the simple pulpy triumph of episode 17, or if the narrative didn't return to Laura's character at the end, with all her complications.

But all of the above happened. I think we were owed some sort of closure with Bob, as the cliffhanger the series gave us 25 years ago, while at the same time believing it would be disingenuous to send him off if he were still the series' singular totemic evil. We get both; he's sent off, but he isn't -- we still have the dark sides of Leland, and Cooper, and the greater negative presence of Judy.

Speaking only for myself then, Bob's resolution went down perfectly well. I didn't think it was as simple as "Laura's abuse gets defeated in a cartoonish way, so bad art."

Camp amorality? Maybe; but only then as setup for episode 18 and a re-examination of the series' heart separated from all the demystified Lodge mythology the previous 25 years had layered onto it unavoidably. More like a shaming of camp amorality, if anything, I thought.

I think I'd agree with you entirely if, after Bob's defeated, the series didn't have another ninety minutes to go.

That is a more intellectual angle than Peaks usually goes for, though, as opposed to its standard emotional ones, so I think of any critique of the series, yours is one that holds weight. I don't find it ruinous, or even ineffective, but I can see why someone else might.
Rialto
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:04 pm

AgentEcho wrote:Rialto, you are pulling things out of a simple question that aren't there. It's a genuine question because most Star Wars fans seem perfectly happy with how things have unfolded with that franchise (maybe the recent spate of firings have caused alarm).


Sorry Agent Echo - we've just had so many people on this thread popping up with questions along the lines of 'so what did you guys want, commercial shite? Coffee, cherry pie and non stop cosy nostalgia?' - I misread your tone. Apologies.
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Joe McCluskey
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Joe McCluskey » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:32 am

Like many others in this thread, I have been pretty underwhelmed by this new season. I recently made a brief video talking about David Lynch's self-indulgence in THE RETURN, particularly when it comes to the character of Gordon Cole. Here's a link to the video if you have any interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVy51xrDzpk :wink:
nimeoa
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby nimeoa » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:52 pm

Joe McCluskey wrote:Like many others in this thread, I have been pretty underwhelmed by this new season. I recently made a brief video talking about David Lynch's self-indulgence in THE RETURN, particularly when it comes to the character of Gordon Cole. Here's a link to the video if you have any interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVy51xrDzpk :wink:


I enjoyed that quite a bit. Great job.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby wxray » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:33 pm

Joe McCluskey wrote:Like many others in this thread, I have been pretty underwhelmed by this new season. I recently made a brief video talking about David Lynch's self-indulgence in THE RETURN, particularly when it comes to the character of Gordon Cole. Here's a link to the video if you have any interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVy51xrDzpk :wink:

YEP.
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The Gazebo
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:39 pm

The Return, and Twin Peaks as a whole, has begun to fade away from my consciousness, and instead of making my planned summary of the good, bad and ugly of this show, I'm perfectly happy to just let sleeping dogs lie. I ended up heavily mixed, leaning towards dislike, which in itself is a huge disappointment. There's really no point in arguing anymore - it won't magically improve my experience of the show. Nor do I have a wish to convince fans of its flaws - it won't change anything. I've accepted that this show no longer is for me. No problem.

I see that several other posters are winding down their involvement here as well, and I'd just like to say many thanks to all the contributors who have managed to express their disappointment in a far more eloquent way than what I've been able to, and the same to friendly fans who've jumped in here from time to time and shared a bit of banter. Last, but not least, thanks to the admin and mods who allowed for this thread to thrive. Dugpa is a great forum :D

Cheerio!
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Twink Peaks
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Twink Peaks » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:47 pm

Joe McCluskey wrote:Like many others in this thread, I have been pretty underwhelmed by this new season. I recently made a brief video talking about David Lynch's self-indulgence in THE RETURN, particularly when it comes to the character of Gordon Cole. Here's a link to the video if you have any interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVy51xrDzpk :wink:


perfect :!:
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LurkerAtTheThreshold
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LurkerAtTheThreshold » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:24 pm

Joe McCluskey wrote:Like many others in this thread, I have been pretty underwhelmed by this new season. I recently made a brief video talking about David Lynch's self-indulgence in THE RETURN, particularly when it comes to the character of Gordon Cole. Here's a link to the video if you have any interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVy51xrDzpk :wink:


That was actually pretty great
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sylvia_north
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:18 pm

Jiaodai is Mandarin Chinese for "explain?" :lol:
i .. am .. not ... your... foot
Rialto
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:41 pm

The Gazebo wrote:The Return, and Twin Peaks as a whole, has begun to fade away from my consciousness, and instead of making my planned summary of the good, bad and ugly of this show, I'm perfectly happy to just let sleeping dogs lie. I ended up heavily mixed, leaning towards dislike, which in itself is a huge disappointment. There's really no point in arguing anymore - it won't magically improve my experience of the show. Nor do I have a wish to convince fans of its flaws - it won't change anything. I've accepted that this show no longer is for me. No problem.

I see that several other posters are winding down their involvement here as well, and I'd just like to say many thanks to all the contributors who have managed to express their disappointment in a far more eloquent way than what I've been able to, and the same to friendly fans who've jumped in here from time to time and shared a bit of banter. Last, but not least, thanks to the admin and mods who allowed for this thread to thrive. Dugpa is a great forum :D

Cheerio!


Cheerio, Gazebo!

It's kind of sad to see the thread winding down, but I guess that's the difference between a show you love, and a disappointment - the former you want to discuss with like minded souls and relive the enjoyment; the latter you want to let fade in memory.
mlsstwrt
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:34 am

Well we almost made 300 pages guys! I wonder if we'll crawl over that mark at some point.

In the meantime thank you all for your contributions, its been real.
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Iron_Dwarf
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Iron_Dwarf » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:36 am

So according to Sabrina Sutherland on the reddit AMA, almost everything that was shot appeared in the final cut. And Lynch added material during filming, that was run past Frost who could say yes or no (and apparently always said yes). That explains a lot.

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