Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[LurkerAtTheThreshold]

It's not like we're taking politics.


Surely this doesn't need to be such a polarising issue. People are going to have different emotional and intellectual reactions to things-period.

[counterpaul]

The thing with Bill Hasings is that it's the centre of the lateral storytelling so far. It's the event of which all realistic mysteries are built on, but unfortunately there's only so much to speculate on so far, did 'Hank' (the shady guy hanging outside) have some hand in delivering the body? What was in the garbage bags he was carrying? Is the body Major Briggs? Was Bill Hastings possessed by the ghost in the jail cell? How did Dougies ring get in the body?
Unfortunately this central mystery isn't enough at the moment to make reasonable speculation interesting yet, the number codes, alien in a box, mauve zone, casino gangsters are just too sparse to be interestingly related to the central mystery.

I can see what you're saying here. The structure of the piece is such that we're still largely in set-up mode (with the exception of Coop's storyline, which I think is nicely in-progress). I feel like there are plentiful character beats that make the whole thing a joy to watch, so this isn't bothering me, but it is true that the Hastings thread is very up in the air at the moment.

My gut feeling is that the bit with Hank is one of those Lynchian grace notes that won't lead anywhere (it reminded me of the guy who happened upon the victim of the motorcycle accident near the end of Wild at Heart--"Man, same thing happened to me last year. Shiiiiiiiit!"--a moment which I love like Lucy loves chocolate), but it could definitely go either way.

I'm terribly curious about whether the Buckhorn cops have found Phylis's body yet. It's only been a couple of days so it actually wouldn't be too weird if they haven't gotten around to going back to the Hastings house to question her. It's also possible George found her body and his gun and put two and two together and tried to hide the body or something.

A lot of balls in the air in Buckhorn. But we keep checking in with Constance and Dave, so I'm sure we'll keep learning things.

I'm hoping, in a twisted way that Beckys murder will centralise a more traditional murder mystery. I think then the show could really carry its own weight. Time will tell I suppose.

Okay, I really, really hope this isn't based on any spoilers you've heard. I want Becky to make it out of this alive. I feel like she has a ton of potential as a character, rather than just a catalyst, and I really don't want Shelly (and Bobby?) to have to go through losing her daughter. Time will tell, indeed.

I understand what your saying about the special effects. The cheapness does sometimes have a unique quality to it, like the gold ball had a charlatanry and stage magician quality to it.

There are echoes of fun weirdness in the FX like the movie 'House' by Nobuhiko Obayashi, have you seen it?

Nobuhiko Obayashi rules! Yes, I think that is a pretty apt comparison (though the effects in House are optical rather than CG).

Though I would disagree with the use of the word "cheap." Most film viewers are so used to equating realism with quality when it comes to VFX that it's sometimes hard to see the difference between high-quality, well rendered unrealistic VFX and cheap, sloppy crap. The VFX in The Return emphatically belongs to the former category. They are not "cheap."

[LurkerAtTheThreshold]

The thing with Bill Hasings is that it's the centre of the lateral storytelling so far. It's the event of which all realistic mysteries are built on, but unfortunately there's only so much to speculate on so far, did 'Hank' (the shady guy hanging outside) have some hand in delivering the body? What was in the garbage bags he was carrying? Is the body Major Briggs? Was Bill Hastings possessed by the ghost in the jail cell? How did Dougies ring get in the body?
Unfortunately this central mystery isn't enough at the moment to make reasonable speculation interesting yet, the number codes, alien in a box, mauve zone, casino gangsters are just too sparse to be interestingly related to the central mystery.

I can see what you're saying here. The structure of the piece is such that we're still largely in set-up mode (with the exception of Coop's storyline, which I think is nicely in-progress). I feel like there are plentiful character beats that make the whole thing a joy to watch, so this isn't bothering me, but it is true that the Hastings thread is very up in the air at the moment.

My gut feeling is that the bit with Hank is one of those Lynchian grace notes that won't lead anywhere (it reminded me of the guy who happened upon the victim of the motorcycle accident near the end of Wild at Heart--"Man, same thing happened to me last year. Shiiiiiiiit!"--a moment which I love like Lucy loves chocolate), but it could definitely go either way.

I'm terribly curious about whether the Buckhorn cops have found Phylis's body yet. It's only been a couple of days so it actually wouldn't be too weird if they haven't gotten around to going back to the Hastings house to question her. It's also possible George found her body and his gun and put two and two together and tried to hide the body or something.

A lot of balls in the air in Buckhorn. But we keep checking in with Constance and Dave, so I'm sure we'll keep learning things.

I'm hoping, in a twisted way that Beckys murder will centralise a more traditional murder mystery. I think then the show could really carry its own weight. Time will tell I suppose.

Okay, I really, really hope this isn't based on any spoilers you've heard. I want Becky to make it out of this alive. I feel like she has a ton of potential as a character, rather than just a catalyst, and I really don't want Shelly (and Bobby?) to have to go through losing her daughter. Time will tell, indeed.

I understand what your saying about the special effects. The cheapness does sometimes have a unique quality to it, like the gold ball had a charlatanry and stage magician quality to it.

There are echoes of fun weirdness in the FX like the movie 'House' by Nobuhiko Obayashi, have you seen it?

Nobuhiko Obayashi rules! Yes, I think that is a pretty apt comparison (though the effects in House are optical rather than CG).

Though I would disagree with the use of the word "cheap." Most film viewers are so used to equating realism with quality when it comes to VFX that it's sometimes hard to see the difference between high-quality, well rendered unrealistic VFX and cheap, sloppy crap. The VFX in The Return emphatically belongs to the former category. They are not "cheap."

Yeah I know what you mean. I'm an animator. 2D not FX but I know the amount of work involved in anything creative. That scene with Dougie and Phillip Gerard and the weird globule that battles with the gold ball. I understand that it would be a lot of careful artistic precision to make something look that weird. Special effects like those certainly get the imagination running.

I think I'm particularly referencing the scene at the start of Episode three where Cooper falls out of the sky onto the Mauve verandah.
I was loving episode one, and it was only the end of episode two with Cooper flying through space that I was totally ejected from the world and became frustrated with the show. That was a turning point for me and that tawdry drop in episode 3 just cemented this student film quality that totally jarred my faith in the world that was being built. It's been a constant effort to re engage with the series from that point.
So for me, I can't help but criticise the effects because they are almost totally responsible for what brought me out of the world, and gave me negative feelings about S3.

I'm sill on the fence about it. I can forgive that moment on a rewatch but I still don't like it. Then there are other parts like the black lodge overlay in the casino and Coop travelling through the power socket which brought to mind respectively - Andy daydreaming of a horned little Nicky and Josie in the doorknob. I don't think the comparisons are unfair either. In fact the Josie wood versus electric socket thing must be a deliberate parallel by Lynch.
It makes me really wonder too if after all these years it wasn't more of Lynch's influence on the second season that was more devastating.
Dougie and Sonny Jim is very little Nicky and echoes his earlier manifestation of family and domestic life; from eraserhead to inventing the log lady. We know Frost was the architect of the Moriarty Windom Earle and black lodge stuff which you have to admit was what saved the second series.

Lynch is credited as the artistic champion defeated by the network because he echoes the viewers thoughts that once Laura Palmers murder was solved the series wasn't the same. But then FWWM indicates that he didn't really have a great grasp on exactly what WAS interesting about the Laura mystery.
His seeming desire to rescucitate a somehow dead but ageing Sheryl Lee also seems to totally miss the bar on what is interesting about the tragic figure of Laura and the fascinating mystery surrounding her. That's just my opinikn

It was Mark who fashioned probably the best detective genre elements and cop drama moments in the first season. Lynch saying that he only really liked the pilot also seems to indicate that he can't have been the sole power behind the joyous uncovering of details which made season one so damn fine.

[counterpaul]

I think I'm particularly referencing the scene at the start of Episode three where Cooper falls out of the sky onto the Mauve verandah.
I was loving episode one, and it was only the end of episode two with Cooper flying through space that I was totally ejected from the world and became frustrated with the show. That was a turning point for me and that tawdry drop in episode 3 just cemented this student film quality that totally jarred my faith in the world that was being built. It's been a constant effort to re engage with the series from that point.
So for me, I can't help but criticise the effects because they are almost totally responsible for what brought me out of the world, and gave me negative feelings about S3.

Interesting. I'd totally disagree that the VFX in those two shots (Coop falling through space and Coop landing onto the mauve room's verandah) are "student film quality" (I sure wish I could have pulled off anything approaching that level of quality as a student!). I love the shot of Coop falling through space (the one that's introduced near the end of Part 2 and kicks off Part 3). I think it's gorgeous. And the one of him crash-landing is also just fine from a rendering perspective (it's a fairly functional effect that neither moves me particularly nor bothers me in the least--it simply does its job).

I will say this--the physics are totally wrong. Might this be what's bothering you? We are most definitely not seeing an effect meant to depict a realistic, physical human being falling at a great speed. Instead it very specifically evokes (to me anyway) what it is like to fall in a dream. It's not a physical falling, but rather the essence--the quiddity--of the idea of a "fall." It's Coop's surroundings, rather than his body, that have fallen away from him. He's observing this chaotic drop with a fair amount of emotional distance. He has his detective-face on. His body is basically passive--almost still.

I don't know about you, but I've had these kinds of dreams and that shot just hit me right where I live. It felt so beautifully familiar in its uncanny oddness.

The landing shot follows the fall, stylistically, quite naturally to me. Again, the physics are totally "wrong," but why would naturalism suddenly be appropriate? Look at what's happening.

Again, this is just a taste thing, but to me the first 20 minutes or so of Part 3 is a massive treasure. I feel like it's imagery Lynch has been carrying around with him since the days of Eraserhead that he's finally been able to realize. It just feels ancient and truthful to me. It's glorious, glorious stuff.

I'm sill on the fence about it. I can forgive that moment on a rewatch but I still don't like it. Then there are other parts like the black lodge overlay in the casino and Coop travelling through the power socket which brought to mind respectively - Andy daydreaming of a horned little Nicky and Josie in the doorknob. I don't think the comparisons are unfair either. In fact the Josie wood versus electric socket thing must be a deliberate parallel by Lynch.

Well, I'm one of the rare TP fans (apparently) who loves the Josie drawer pull moment. The execution of the shot is definitely dated, but the idea is marvelous. To me it makes perfect sense, on an intuitive level--it's one of the most completely, nakedly honest moments in that somewhat rough run of episodes after Leland dies and before Coop meets Annie. I'm actually a big, big fan of the Josie storyline overall, a few minor quibbles ("Asian Man Killed!!!!") aside. I think her story is moving, and thematically mirrors Laura's in a number of interesting ways.

The icon above the slot machines is the one bit of imagery in The Return so far that I'm not super in love with. My issue with it (and I definitely consider it a minor issue--the scene itself totally works for me overall), though, has everything to due with design and nothing to do with execution. The effect itself is well done--it just doesn't "sing" for me on a taste level. I find myself wishing it was more subtle--like the green light that flashed on Tony's face in the board meeting before Coop called him a liar. That worked for me.

As for devil-Little-Nicky: I'm not gonna talk about devil-Little-Nicky, in fact we're not gonna talk about devil-Little-Nicky at all, we're gonna keep him out of it.

It makes me really wonder too if after all these years it wasn't more of Lynch's influence on the second season that was more devastating.
Dougie and Sonny Jim is very little Nicky and echoes his earlier manifestation of family and domestic life; from eraserhead to inventing the log lady.

Here we part ways. I'm totally fascinated by Sonny Jim. First there are the obvious echoes of the room service waiter, and then that stunning scene of Coop crying as he watches him in the car. This material I find deeply moving and pure.

We know Frost was the architect of the Moriarty Windom Earle and black lodge stuff which you have to admit was what saved the second series.

Again, it looks like I must respectfully disagree. Earle as Moriarty to Coop's Holms is the most uninspired major development in all of Twin Peaks to me (sure, there are less interesting minor threads like Evelyn Marsh or Lana trying to rig Miss Twin Peaks, but those come and go relatively quickly). Earle-as-super-villain just kind of sits there. I don't think Twin Peaks needed a "main bad guy" at all. The lodges, as a concept, could have gone either way, but that thread is saved by two facts: it stems organically from the woods, which is a foundational presence in the show, and Lynch saved it from what would have been total goofiness when he scrapped the script for Episode 29 and instead made a masterpiece.

The lodge storyline of late season 2 works, for me anyway, more in retrospect than it did watching it real-time. It was touch and go as it teetered on the verge of dull fantasy literalism, especially when it came to Earl's extended speeches on the subject. I'm totally on board with Hawk's and Major Briggs's takes on the lodges, but in my mind (and, admittedly, I am stretching the text of the show for my own purposes, here) Earle was just wrong about the lodges most of the time. His ego and hubris made him think he was way more of an expert than he was. Again, Lynch saves the day when BOB just straight-up puts Earle (and all his silliness) in his place in Episode 29.

Lynch is credited as the artistic champion defeated by the network because he echoes the viewers thoughts that once Laura Palmers murder was solved the series wasn't the same. But then FWWM indicates that he didn't really have a great grasp on exactly what WAS interesting about the Laura mystery.

Well, the gulf between our two opinions widens ever more. With FWWM, Lynch added tremendous depth to Twin Peaks. Laura as simply a catalyst for mystery became an increasingly shallow conceit as soon as the true tragedy of the Palmer family (the years of abuse Laura suffered) became undeniable. The true revelation of Episode 14 was not the identity of the killer, as it would have been in a conventional murder mystery, but the identity of the town--a town that let this abuse go on and on out of sheer denial. As Bobby said at Laura's funeral, "Everybody knew Laura was in trouble." And it is the nature of that trouble, and the nature of the town's knowing, that is the real subject matter of Twin Peaks.

That is why Lynch was absolutely right to take the opportunity of making a film to tell Laura's story from her point of view. She deserved that. She deserved to be, explicitly rather than just implicitly, the truly heroic central figure of Twin Peaks and FWWM gave her that. Crucially, Laura (even though it cost her her life) succeeded in FWWM where Coop failed in Episode 29.

And I have a strong feeling that it will be Laura who, in some very important way, truly leads Cooper back to his best self in The Return. As it should be. Twin Peaks was built on Laura's pain, and Lynch has always honored that.

[LurkerAtTheThreshold]

I think I'm particularly referencing the scene at the start of Episode three where Cooper falls out of the sky onto the Mauve verandah.
I was loving episode one, and it was only the end of episode two with Cooper flying through space that I was totally ejected from the world and became frustrated with the show. That was a turning point for me and that tawdry drop in episode 3 just cemented this student film quality that totally jarred my faith in the world that was being built. It's been a constant effort to re engage with the series from that point.
So for me, I can't help but criticise the effects because they are almost totally responsible for what brought me out of the world, and gave me negative feelings about S3.

Interesting. I'd totally disagree that the VFX in those two shots (Coop falling through space and Coop landing onto the mauve room's verandah) are "student film quality" (I sure wish I could have pulled off anything approaching that level of quality as a student!). I love the shot of Coop falling through space (the one that's introduced near the end of Part 2 and kicks off Part 3). I think it's gorgeous. And the one of him crash-landing is also just fine from a rendering perspective (it's a fairly functional effect that neither moves me particularly nor bothers me in the least--it simply does its job).

I will say this--the physics are totally wrong. Might this be what's bothering you? We are most definitely not seeing an effect meant to depict a realistic, physical human being falling at a great speed. Instead it very specifically evokes (to me anyway) what it is like to fall in a dream. It's not a physical falling, but rather the essence--the quiddity--of the idea of a "fall." It's Coop's surroundings, rather than his body, that have fallen away from him. He's observing this chaotic drop with a fair amount of emotional distance. He has his detective-face on. His body is basically passive--almost still.

I don't know about you, but I've had these kinds of dreams and that shot just hit me right where I live. It felt so beautifully familiar in its uncanny oddness.

The landing shot follows the fall, stylistically, quite naturally to me. Again, the physics are totally "wrong," but why would naturalism suddenly be appropriate? Look at what's happening.

Again, this is just a taste thing, but to me the first 20 minutes or so of Part 3 is a massive treasure. I feel like it's imagery Lynch has been carrying around with him since the days of Eraserhead that he's finally been able to realize. It just feels ancient and truthful to me. It's glorious, glorious stuff.

I'm sill on the fence about it. I can forgive that moment on a rewatch but I still don't like it. Then there are other parts like the black lodge overlay in the casino and Coop travelling through the power socket which brought to mind respectively - Andy daydreaming of a horned little Nicky and Josie in the doorknob. I don't think the comparisons are unfair either. In fact the Josie wood versus electric socket thing must be a deliberate parallel by Lynch.

Well, I'm one of the rare TP fans (apparently) who loves the Josie drawer pull moment. The execution of the shot is definitely dated, but the idea is marvelous. To me it makes perfect sense, on an intuitive level--it's one of the most completely, nakedly honest moments in that somewhat rough run of episodes after Leland dies and before Coop meets Annie. I'm actually a big, big fan of the Josie storyline overall, a few minor quibbles ("Asian Man Killed!!!!") aside. I think her story is moving, and thematically mirrors Laura's in a number of interesting ways.

The icon above the slot machines is the one bit of imagery in The Return so far that I'm not super in love with. My issue with it (and I definitely consider it a minor issue--the scene itself totally works for me overall), though, has everything to due with design and nothing to do with execution. The effect itself is well done--it just doesn't "sing" for me on a taste level. I find myself wishing it was more subtle--like the green light that flashed on Tony's face in the board meeting before Coop called him a liar. That worked for me.

As for devil-Little-Nicky: I'm not gonna talk about devil-Little-Nicky, in fact we're not gonna talk about devil-Little-Nicky at all, we're gonna keep him out of it.

It makes me really wonder too if after all these years it wasn't more of Lynch's influence on the second season that was more devastating.
Dougie and Sonny Jim is very little Nicky and echoes his earlier manifestation of family and domestic life; from eraserhead to inventing the log lady.

Here we part ways. I'm totally fascinated by Sonny Jim. First there are the obvious echoes of the room service waiter, and then that stunning scene of Coop crying as he watches him in the car. This material I find deeply moving and pure.

We know Frost was the architect of the Moriarty Windom Earle and black lodge stuff which you have to admit was what saved the second series.

Again, it looks like I must respectfully disagree. Earle as Moriarty to Coop's Holms is the most uninspired major development in all of Twin Peaks to me (sure, there are less interesting minor threads like Evelyn Marsh or Lana trying to rig Miss Twin Peaks, but those come and go relatively quickly). Earle-as-super-villain just kind of sits there. I don't think Twin Peaks needed a "main bad guy" at all. The lodges, as a concept, could have gone either way, but that thread is saved by two facts: it stems organically from the woods, which is a foundational presence in the show, and Lynch saved it from what would have been total goofiness when he scrapped the script for Episode 29 and instead made a masterpiece.

The lodge storyline of late season 2 works, for me anyway, more in retrospect than it did watching it real-time. It was touch and go as it teetered on the verge of dull fantasy literalism, especially when it came to Earl's extended speeches on the subject. I'm totally on board with Hawk's and Major Briggs's takes on the lodges, but in my mind (and, admittedly, I am stretching the text of the show for my own purposes, here) Earle was just wrong about the lodges most of the time. His ego and hubris made him think he was way more of an expert than he was. Again, Lynch saves the day when BOB just straight-up puts Earle (and all his silliness) in his place in Episode 29.

Lynch is credited as the artistic champion defeated by the network because he echoes the viewers thoughts that once Laura Palmers murder was solved the series wasn't the same. But then FWWM indicates that he didn't really have a great grasp on exactly what WAS interesting about the Laura mystery.

Well, the gulf between our two opinions widens ever more. With FWWM, Lynch added tremendous depth to Twin Peaks. Laura as simply a catalyst for mystery became an increasingly shallow conceit as soon as the true tragedy of the Palmer family (the years of abuse Laura suffered) became undeniable. The true revelation of Episode 14 was not the identity of the killer, as it would have been in a conventional murder mystery, but the identity of the town--a town that let this abuse go on and on out of sheer denial. As Bobby said at Laura's funeral, "Everybody knew Laura was in trouble." And it is the nature of that trouble, and the nature of the town's knowing, that is the real subject matter of Twin Peaks.

That is why Lynch was absolutely right to take the opportunity of making a film to tell Laura's story from her point of view. She deserved that. She deserved to be, explicitly rather than just implicitly, the truly heroic central figure of Twin Peaks and FWWM gave her that. Crucially, Laura (even though it cost her her life) succeeded in FWWM where Coop failed in Episode 29.

And I have a strong feeling that it will be Laura who, in some very important way, truly leads Cooper back to his best self in The Return. As it should be. Twin Peaks was built on Laura's pain, and Lynch has always honored that.

Well articulated. I can agree on most of those points. As far as the special effects go it was more of an emotional reaction on my part rather than a logical one, and not one I can reason with myself, but through your eyes my appreciation does improve somewhat.

I feel like there's a divide between the Frostians and the Lynchians emotionally. I like both, but always liked Twin peaks for its complexity. Frost brought, as well as the clued in plot a lot of the emotional warmth of the small town--where Lynch does dark underside a lot better. There are very few innocents in the new series so far. No Jeffries being seduced into the world. It's all corrupt; which feels like a change of heart even for Lynch, looking at the world through more mature eyes. The young characters walking on the wild side this far don't even have music and romance working in their favour.

When TSHOTP came out I feel like a lot of the Lynchian had the same negative reaction that the Frostians are having toward the new season.

I'm just hoping we can reach a nice catharsis 'between two worlds'.

We'll wait and see

[Metamorphia]

Okay, I really, really hope this isn't based on any spoilers you've heard. I want Becky to make it out of this alive. I feel like she has a ton of potential as a character, rather than just a catalyst, and I really don't want Shelly (and Bobby?) to have to go through losing her daughter. Time will tell, indeed.

Drama arises from conflict and disruption, so hopefully it does happen. Will give Shelly and Bobby proper things to do, too.

[LurkerAtTheThreshold]

Okay, I really, really hope this isn't based on any spoilers you've heard. I want Becky to make it out of this alive. I feel like she has a ton of potential as a character, rather than just a catalyst, and I really don't want Shelly (and Bobby?) to have to go through losing her daughter. Time will tell, indeed.

Drama arises from conflict and disruption, so hopefully it does happen. Will give Shelly and Bobby proper things to do, too.

I don't know if that's the take away. I was thinking purely in terms of plot. Not so much about character development and wether the brutal murder of a young girl is good for character development. In my experience trauma poisons and destroys a person. No good really comes from it

[mtwentz]

I think people are assuming Becky is the new Laura because she is played by Amanda Seyfried, who played a similar role in Veronica Mars.

[KnewItsPa]

We can view the narrative of S3 (so far) as a painfully obvious Jungian metaphor and suppose Dougie / Mr C. to be a manifestation the 'good' and 'bad' parts of Coops psyche on their psycho-spiritual journey to reintegration with the Whole. OK, so it is 'metaphorical', if a somewhat ham-fisted, bludgeoning metaphor.

However it's important to remember BOB was metaphor for Leylands fragmented shadow-self and Lauras 'screen-memory' to cover the abuse by her father - and totally unlike Dougie / Mr. C., BOB did not have an external, physical form, roaming the world, going to the bathroom, crashing cars etc. BOB exists only in the mind. This remains true even if we also accept BOB as a supernatural evil spirit, walk-in who devours fear and takes possession of his victims.

If S3 were using the same, consistent model of psychological metaphor as Twin Peaks, either Dougie / Mr C. would not be 'real' or we would have seen TMFAP walk into the Double-R and order pie, backwards, and that never happened.

I don't think the shift in The Return is as extreme as you paint it here. If one were to interpret Twin Peaks so that anything in the narrative that undeniably happens outside of a character's head must be considered extra-metaphoric, then a purely metaphoric reading of the "supernatural" elements of the story began to fall apart the second Major Briggs brought Coop the printout with "The owls are not what they seem" and became totally unsupportable as soon as Harry watched Coop disappear behind the curtains at Glastonbury Grove. FWWM would, according to this logic, only further rip such a reading to shreds as the ring appears in a photograph and Jeffries inexplicably appears at the Philadelphia FBI headquarters.

Not at all. You seem to be deliberately missing the point that the framework in Twin Peaks is that the surreal elements are both metaphorical and supernatural, simultaneously. One chants out between two worlds. Twin Peaks also uses surrealism in relation to coded, military and government information as well, but try not to let that confuse you too much.

And sure, Dougie / Mr. C are fun characters, but it's so much more of a crude cartoon of Jungian psychological splitting than the BOB/Leland/Laura mystery. Maybe when Cole gets around to debriefing Agent Cooper on his undercover job, things will get more subtle and less blatant.

It's sidestepping the language of the show, which works on a metaphorical level from the first frame to the last.

I'm sure some people will stretch the Save the Pine Weasel campaign and Nadine getting super powers being all being a metaphor for something. Lol!

[Metamorphia]

Okay, I really, really hope this isn't based on any spoilers you've heard. I want Becky to make it out of this alive. I feel like she has a ton of potential as a character, rather than just a catalyst, and I really don't want Shelly (and Bobby?) to have to go through losing her daughter. Time will tell, indeed.

Drama arises from conflict and disruption, so hopefully it does happen. Will give Shelly and Bobby proper things to do, too.

I don't know if that's the take away. I was thinking purely in terms of plot. Not so much about character development and wether the brutal murder of a young girl is good for character development. In my experience trauma poisons and destroys a person. No good really comes from it

But that's GREAT to watch in a fictional TV/movie

[LurkerAtTheThreshold]

Drama arises from conflict and disruption, so hopefully it does happen. Will give Shelly and Bobby proper things to do, too.

I don't know if that's the take away. I was thinking purely in terms of plot. Not so much about character development and wether the brutal murder of a young girl is good for character development. In my experience trauma poisons and destroys a person. No good really comes from it

But that's GREAT to watch in a fictional TV/movie

Exactly.
We're all sick people but most of us on a surface level. In any case we all love a good murder mystery. Hundreds of years of crime fiction proves the fact

[counterpaul]

I don't think the shift in The Return is as extreme as you paint it here. If one were to interpret Twin Peaks so that anything in the narrative that undeniably happens outside of a character's head must be considered extra-metaphoric, then a purely metaphoric reading of the "supernatural" elements of the story began to fall apart the second Major Briggs brought Coop the printout with "The owls are not what they seem" and became totally unsupportable as soon as Harry watched Coop disappear behind the curtains at Glastonbury Grove. FWWM would, according to this logic, only further rip such a reading to shreds as the ring appears in a photograph and Jeffries inexplicably appears at the Philadelphia FBI headquarters.

Not at all. You seem to be deliberately missing the point that the framework in Twin Peaks is that the surreal elements are both metaphorical and supernatural, simultaneously. One chants out between two worlds.

Perhaps I did misinterpret part of your previous post. The paragraph quoted above was primarily in response to your assertion that, previous to The Return, there was a clearer line between the "real" aspects of the story and the "supernatural" stuff. When you spoke about how BOB only existed in the mind and LMFAP never walked into the RR, you seemed to be saying that one of your issues with The Return is that the corporeal presence of two Coopers brings the supernatural elements (set aside, for a moment, how we choose to read them) too explicitly out of the realm of the characters' subconscious. Was I not reading that correctly?

That's why I was harping on the stuff in Episode 29 and FWWM that basically does the same thing (not to mention Jeffries disappearing and reappearing in the hotel in The Missing Pieces). I'm just saying that obliterating that line (if it ever existed) isn't new to The Return.

Moving on from that into the land of interpretation, certainly I can see a reading of Twin Peaks in which the surreal elements are both metaphorical and supernatural, simultaneously. To a certain extent, I even agree. There is a very key metaphysical thread through the show's world-view that literalizes the idea that we can know things and feel traumas communally. I would never argue that the figures we're discussing here (BOB, The Arm, The Giant, the Tremonds/Chalfonts, MIKE, etc.) are presented as mere fantasies or delusions that the characters experience. That's not it at all.

However, I do think it's inaccurate and counterproductive to read these figures as fantastical entities, independent of the internal human drama they serve to depict. I think it's also an exercise in futility to try and squeeze what is a surreal device into a rational fantasy framework with consistent "rules." It isn't consistent because it's driven by character and emotion, which change from one moment to the next. That isn't to say it's meaningless! I would argue that the surreal imagery is extraordinarily meaningful indeed. But its meaning stems almost completely from the human context of a scene.

Twin Peaks also uses surrealism in relation to coded, military and government information as well, but try not to let that confuse you too much.

Certainly! The coded language and top secret, sciencey/official mumbo-jumbo rumbling around throughout the show is absolutely part of the surreal vernacular. Same with all the numbers. Same with all the clues in general. It's all about priming us to receive. When details (many of which are fairly random) are presented as important and secret and complex, certain parts of our brains switch on and we pay attention in a special way. Lynch loves playing around with that. The details themselves may in fact be meaningless (sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't), but that is irrelevant because when you're in that state of paying close attention to minutia, the really important emotional stuff hits you extra hard. It's a beautiful thing.

And sure, Dougie / Mr. C are fun characters, but it's so much more of a crude cartoon of Jungian psychological splitting than the BOB/Leland/Laura mystery. Maybe when Cole gets around to debriefing Agent Cooper on his undercover job, things will get more subtle and less blatant.

I'm reading it (at least so far) a little differently. I don't see COOPER and Coop as simply the "bad side" and "good side" of Dale Cooper. I think what we're seeing is a good man who is desperately lost on a spiritual level. 25 years ago, he profoundly failed himself and it just about destroyed him. What was left out in the world was a hateful shell (COOPER) who created this cruel, empty parody of the life Coop might have lived, absent any of the substance of what truly made Dale Cooper who he is (Dougie). But Cooper's true self did survive and is now slowly reasserting himself. This is presented as a literal rebirth. This lost, battered core has to grow from infancy.

This is a beautiful, truthful metaphor to me! This happens. We make mistakes and spend years, sometimes lifetimes battering ourselves for it. We miss out of life. And sometimes we wake up. But waking up is only the beginning of the journey.

It's sidestepping the language of the show, which works on a metaphorical level from the first frame to the last.

I'm sure some people will stretch the Save the Pine Weasel campaign and Nadine getting super powers being all being a metaphor for something. Lol!

Actually, yes. Not all metaphors are serious. Twin Peaks has a very pronounced absurdist streak, and certainly Nadine's story, and "good Ben" to a certain extent, are expressions of that.

My point is that Twin Peaks, from the start and regardless of whether we're talking about the various tales of a small town or the more blatantly "supernatural" elements, is not particularly concerned with naturalism as a story-telling mode. It's one of the reasons the more obviously surreal elements feel very much of a piece with everything else.

Surrealism doesn't just mean "wacky" imagery. It's an approach to storytelling and character development. Twin Peaks (when it's firing on all cylinders) is fundamentally surreal. Sarah on the phone in the pilot is surreal. Bobby and Donna crying in the Roadhouse as Maddy dies is surreal. Leland dancing and weeping amongst the largely oblivious crowd at The Great Northern is surreal. And, yes, Nadine busting the chains on her bed as she wakes from her coma is surreal.

It's a basic part of the show's DNA.

[LostInTheMovies]

I'm reading it (at least so far) a little differently. I don't see COOPER and Coop as simply the "bad side" and "good side" of Dale Cooper. I think what we're seeing is a good man who is desperately lost on a spiritual level. 25 years ago, he profoundly failed himself and it just about destroyed him. What was left out in the world was a hateful shell (COOPER) who created this cruel, empty parody of the life Coop might have lived, absent any of the substance of what truly made Dale Cooper who he is (Dougie). But Cooper's true self did survive and is now slowly reasserting himself. This is presented as a literal rebirth. This lost, battered core has to grow from infancy.

This is a beautiful, truthful metaphor to me! This happens. We make mistakes and spend years, sometimes lifetimes battering ourselves for it. We miss out of life. And sometimes we wake up. But waking up is only the beginning of the journey.

Very interesting post. What do you see as the nature/cause of Cooper's failure 25 years ago? This is something I am intrigued by now, especially as it applies to his current status in the ongoing series at present.

[Putontheglasses]

I'm reading it (at least so far) a little differently. I don't see COOPER and Coop as simply the "bad side" and "good side" of Dale Cooper. I think what we're seeing is a good man who is desperately lost on a spiritual level. 25 years ago, he profoundly failed himself and it just about destroyed him. What was left out in the world was a hateful shell (COOPER) who created this cruel, empty parody of the life Coop might have lived, absent any of the substance of what truly made Dale Cooper who he is (Dougie). But Cooper's true self did survive and is now slowly reasserting himself. This is presented as a literal rebirth. This lost, battered core has to grow from infancy.

This is a beautiful, truthful metaphor to me! This happens. We make mistakes and spend years, sometimes lifetimes battering ourselves for it. We miss out of life. And sometimes we wake up. But waking up is only the beginning of the journey.

Very interesting post. What do you see as the nature/cause of Cooper's failure 25 years ago? This is something I am intrigued by now, especially as it applies to his current status in the ongoing series at present.

I would say his failure is from making the same mistake with Annie that he did with Caroline. He endangered her by being seen in public with her romantically when Earle was in town, and he also betrayed himself by waxing poetic about her and being in love in front of Truman who had just lost Josie. He gave in to selfish desire and did not do the highest thing. Plus Annie was hurt badly in the past so she needed him to take things slowly and look out for her.

The only reason he didn't get with Audrey is because she didn't do it for him and because she was too young.


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[LateReg]

I'm reading it (at least so far) a little differently. I don't see COOPER and Coop as simply the "bad side" and "good side" of Dale Cooper. I think what we're seeing is a good man who is desperately lost on a spiritual level. 25 years ago, he profoundly failed himself and it just about destroyed him. What was left out in the world was a hateful shell (COOPER) who created this cruel, empty parody of the life Coop might have lived, absent any of the substance of what truly made Dale Cooper who he is (Dougie). But Cooper's true self did survive and is now slowly reasserting himself. This is presented as a literal rebirth. This lost, battered core has to grow from infancy.

This is a beautiful, truthful metaphor to me! This happens. We make mistakes and spend years, sometimes lifetimes battering ourselves for it. We miss out of life. And sometimes we wake up. But waking up is only the beginning of the journey.

Very interesting post. What do you see as the nature/cause of Cooper's failure 25 years ago? This is something I am intrigued by now, especially as it applies to his current status in the ongoing series at present.

I'd like to second this. The Dougie Coop stuff is not literal in the slightest in my mind, nor is it meant to be read on a psychological level (though it can be both of those things, as well as satirical). It is primarily, almost totally spiritual. A spiritual journey.