Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

[yaxomoxay]

I'm prepared for Audrey to be stuck inside a coma or something but I still don't understand how the 18 year old victim of the explosion at the bank would know what she would look like 25 years later.

Who told you that what we see is her look? She might be severely burned, and missing a limb or two.




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[LateReg]

I know we're getting back into dangerous territory here and I don't really want to see arguments breaking out again. I really do believe that you guys posting here do love The Return and are not just swept up in some mass hysteria. But it's hard not to be skeptical when people on other threads aren't just saying, 'Wow really enjoyed that Episode, not perfect, but great hour of TV' but they're saying (about Ep 14), 'That was the most amazing hour of TV ever created.'

I think a few people may be falling into a bit of self-hype, which is probably inevitable when a favorite show returns after a quarter-century -- just as a degree of disappointment was probably inevitable no matter what L/F did. Like you, I do wonder about the people calling this the greatest television show of all time. DKL is my favorite living director, I'm loving the show overall (and I do think Part 8 in particular is an all-time great hour of television), but I do have to wonder whether the people touting this as the greatest thing in the history of TV have watched The Wire, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, The Shield, The Sopranos, Louie...I could continue, but you get the point. I also wonder if this particular contingent overlaps with the group who, pre-TP:TR, felt that nothing on TV since had matched the original show, or -- and this one TRULY baffles me -- that TV has gone downhill since the '90s (a sentiment I saw a lot on here in the pre-TP:TR hype). It seems to me that some people, perhaps for lack of time (something I can certainly relate to) stopped watching TV at some point after the original, and aren't quite aware of how much incredible art has been created for this medium over the past two decades. Ironically, I think some of the people who have fallen most in love with TP:TR may be more nostalgia-minded than you profoundly disappointed folk (who, as we all know, are all just longing for cherry pie and coffee ).

On the other hand, while I may not think TP:TR is the greatest TV show of all time, or even of the last few years, I would argue that it might be the most unique and experimental. And, if I believe that, then I can certainly also believe that there is a group of people who have been waiting for precisely this type of show with this pacing and idiosyncratic plotting, this exact mix of elements, to sing to their souls. Ultimately, I think on both extremes -- those who love and loathe the new show -- there are some people who are reaching intelligent, reasoned conclusions, and some people who are letting expectations/nostalgia cloud their judgment.

Totally wrong thread for this and I'm nearly a week late in responding, but this post from Mr. Reindeer is right in my wheelhouse. Given that there are profoundly disappointed and those who are madly in love with The Return, it's safe to say that it will be fascinating to watch this show evolve in the minds of fans/critics on its way into history. Each of us may have our own view of how it will go down, and most people in this thread would say and have been saying that supporters are fading and many more will soon realize that their excitement has gotten the best of them, and that the show is just not good. Supporters of the show most likely think the opposite, that The Return will evolve to be accepted more and more as a great work. I'm a supporter, and I definitely think that way. People in this thread have made good points about fans letting their excitement get in the way of judging this work, but I think if anything it's not that they think Lynch can do no wrong, but that fans of any director value the personal aspects of their art and interpret said art and symbolism through a different prism than others might. For this reason alone, since Lynch has put so much of himself and his past works into The Return, I think it would be foolish to bet against The Return becoming valued as one of the great works of his career by critics/historians, who very much value these kind of labyrinthine, self-referential career summations. To me it's a no-brainer that this will grow in stature over time, as all of Lynch's previous films have, and as nearly every divisive work by a major artist usually does.

With that out of the way, in response to Mr. Reindeer, I'd just like to say that I don't yet know where The Return ranks in the pantheon of great television (or films), but it is easy for me to imagine that it has a chance of being as highly regarded as those shows you mention, at least by film critics who are very conscious of Lynch's career and generally more open-minded than most TV critics since their brains aren't wired in such an episode-minded fashion. I really like the reasonable conclusion that you come to regarding The Return's status as the most unique and experimental show ever made, and on that basis alone I think one could consider it to be up there with those classics you mentioned. That said, it's incredibly hard to compare 18 hours of The Return to the much longer programs you referenced, most of which I've seen in their entirety at least twice (three times for Sopranos and The Wire, but just once for Louie). I think Sopranos, The Wire, Mad Men and Breaking Bad (along with, assuming it sticks the landing, The Americans) are the best dramas ever made, and I don't know how a one season limited series can touch them, but I would place The Return ahead of both The Shield (which was actually my favorite first time viewing of any show) and Louie without hesitation. Furthermore, for an apples to apples comparison, I have recently rewatched some of the best limited series of the past few years, including True Detective, Fargo(s) and Top of the Lake, and I would unhesitatingly rank The Return ahead of all of those, with even Top of the Lake seeming orthodox in comparison. So, I'm just writing to say that there are those of us who have kept up with the great art on television, and who wouldn't consider the notion that a new 18-hour David Lynch film that breaks new ground for television and obviously requires repeat viewings to unpack could be in the running for one of TV's most remarkable achievements. Of course, it still all depends on the ending, which may or may not contextualize even the Roadhouse scenes that so many on this board complain about...and which I personally find to be among the most consistently great scenes in The Return.

Like I said, wrong thread, and this post is not meant to tell anybody that they're wrong for not liking it now or 20 years from now. I'm just very into film canon and the evolution of a film's reception, and the above is speculation on my part based on film history and how critics contribute to shaping a film's reputation. Hence why this is my favorite thread, because I genuinely am fascinated to read what people think is wrong (and right) with a film/TV show. But I think that there should be a thread about where we think The Return might or might not sit in the pantheon, and how, if we consider it a third season rather than a standalone, it affects Twin Peaks' place in that pantheon.

[yaxomoxay]

Likewise, the unpleasant theory that Richard Horne is the product of rape - this carries no dramatic weight if the viewer doesn't understand the relationship between Cooper and Audrey in the original series. But if it does turn out that Audrey was raped by (who she thought was) Cooper, it'll leave a pretty nasty taste in the mouth. I mean, how will it possible to watch the Audrey and Cooper scenes in the original series knowing that this is going to happen? Remember, Audrey was a teenage girl - a child, basically - infatuated with a grown man who tried to avoid putting her in danger and ended up saving her life. Honestly, watching this whole series, it seems more and more like the whole thing is a deliberate act of vandalism.

Yes this is a truly upsetting thought and if it becomes true, then I don't see how it can't taint the original series. Whether she was conscious or not when attacked and even though it wasn't the actual Dale Cooper who did it it's still something that messes with your head. We'll see if they give the whole back story soon though quite honestly, I'm not sure that I really want to hear it.

Well, that's kinda the point of an evil doppelganger. They destroy "order".
I mean, it's not that Leland Palmer did much better........


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[referendum]

Yes this is a truly upsetting thought and if it becomes true, then I don't see how it can't taint the original series. Deliberate act of vandalism

but, the first series was about a teenager being raped by her dad. What do you mean, 'tainted'? ' vandalism'? are we watching different programmes?
The first one had no upsetting elements?
was just,is just, like james '' still cool'?

[yaxomoxay]

She means that she won't be able to watch Audrey and Coop's scene as they were anymore, which is totally legitimate.
My point is that each additional episode is going to "taint" something from previous episodes. Any update is going to "taint" what was there. The only way not to "taint" is to not do any new episodes.
By definition the new series was going to change things.


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[Venus]

Yes this is a truly upsetting thought and if it becomes true, then I don't see how it can't taint the original series. Deliberate act of vandalism

but, the first series was about a teenager being raped by her dad. What do you mean, 'tainted'? ' vandalism'? are we watching different programmes?
The first one had no upsetting elements?
was just,is just, like james '' still cool'?

Lol well dur, of course I know that and I wasn't referring to that at all because if I was, I would have mentioned it. That was all there and part of the storyline then. I was referring to just the Audrey/Cooper relationship then and now. Nothing else.

[LateReg]

The main problem with S3 is that the characters, such as they are, are wafer-thin and woefully underdeveloped. You cannot have a compelling drama without compelling characters. I mean, what the fuck is all that nonsense with Audrey and her husband? It's literally a waste of time. Their presence serves no narrative or dramatic purpose whatsoever. I'm astonished at just how much potential has been squandered.

I certainly agree with you about the terrible character development, but I think the Audrey/husband stuff is actually happening only in Audrey's head. This last episode added weight to the idea that Audrey's mind is fighting with itself. Her inability to leave the house suggests that there is more than just the obvious. Audrey is the irrational, emotional part and the husband is the rational, logical part. As much as Audrey wants to wake up, she is afraid of it and can't do it without the "husband" half. Up to now, she can't find a way past the fear to integrate the parts, so they never leave the house together. If it is that, it's kind of a nice parallel to Coop's split personality.

It certainly would be an interesting concept, if executed properly, but it a) most likely isn't the intention at all and it'll probably turn out to be another wild goose chase, and b) it's really badly done. I mean, look at those scenes. Badly written, badly blocked, badly shot, badly acted. It's like watching a particularly bad am-dram improv session.

As you correctly pointed out in one of your earlier posts, the characters in this series cannot stand on their own - a familiarity with the original series is essential in order to understand characters like Audrey, Nadine, Norma and Bobby. Of course we can speculate as to Audrey's mental state, because we know that she was in the bank vault explosion. Anyone without a basic grounding in David Lynch studies would be absolutely baffled as to Audrey is.

Likewise, the unpleasant theory that Richard Horne is the product of rape - this carries no dramatic weight if the viewer doesn't understand the relationship between Cooper and Audrey in the original series. But if it does turn out that Audrey was raped by (who she thought was) Cooper, it'll leave a pretty nasty taste in the mouth. I mean, how will it possible to watch the Audrey and Cooper scenes in the original series knowing that this is going to happen? Remember, Audrey was a teenage girl - a child, basically - infatuated with a grown man who tried to avoid putting her in danger and ended up saving her life. Honestly, watching this series, it's hard not to view the whole thing as a deliberate act of vandalism.

I know people on this board especially aren't fond of any notion that any scenes are intentionally "bad" or whatnot, but surely we can all agree that there is a big chance that Lynch is blocking and shooting the Audrey scenes with obvious purpose. They feel like a bad soap opera, they disrupt the rhythm of everything that appears around them. This is all intentional. Does it work? Maybe not!

As to the notion that Audrey may be in a coma...I admit they'd really have to do something special to make it work, and I don't quite know how they will. And I don't want to find out that she's somehow dreaming all of this, which would also require incredible skill to pull off. That said, this entire show may make the most logical sense if Audrey is dreaming it all from her comatose state. The last things she remembers are her classmate getting raped and murdered by an upstanding member of her community, which led to Audrey changing and nearly getting blowed up, after which she was raped by the one man she thought she could trust in DoppelCoop and gave birth to a son that she doesn't know. If she is somehow conscious of this rape and the birth of her child, then it would explain why nearly every random man in the show is extra evil and why nearly every woman is nuts and under constant threat of violence. Audrey would be projecting all of that. I haven't thought this through to every element of the plot and I don't care to because it's just a passing thought, nothing more.

[Venus]

She means that she won't be able to watch Audrey and Coop's scene as they were anymore, which is totally legitimate.
My point is that each additional episode is going to "taint" something from previous episodes. Any update is going to "taint" what was there. The only way not to "taint" is to not do any new episodes.
By definition the new series was going to change things.


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I agree with what you say re the tainting and the updates. But there is tainting of an old storyline and then there is violation of it, and if Audrey was raped as some say, then imo purely in the case of her individual storyline, it's a distasteful step too far as it would be completely unnecessary to the plot line, apart from to produce the devils spawn, and if that is the reason why then TP3 imo could seriously do without him.

[yaxomoxay]

She means that she won't be able to watch Audrey and Coop's scene as they were anymore, which is totally legitimate.
My point is that each additional episode is going to "taint" something from previous episodes. Any update is going to "taint" what was there. The only way not to "taint" is to not do any new episodes.
By definition the new series was going to change things.


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I agree with what you say re the tainting and the updates. But there is tainting of an old storyline and then there is violation of it, and if Audrey was raped as some say, then imo purely in the case of her individual storyline, it's a distasteful step too far as it would be completely unnecessary to the plot line, apart from to produce the devils spawn, and if that is the reason why then TP3 imo could seriously do without him.

I don't think it would be distasteful (obviously talking just about the drama factor, not the act itself). It would add a layer to Mr. C.'s story, as he was ready to hit from day one. Now, I want to see how it evolves before judging as it is clear that we will see more about this. However there's one question I have: did he do it so that Audrey was pregnant? Is so, why?

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[Venus]

She means that she won't be able to watch Audrey and Coop's scene as they were anymore, which is totally legitimate.
My point is that each additional episode is going to "taint" something from previous episodes. Any update is going to "taint" what was there. The only way not to "taint" is to not do any new episodes.
By definition the new series was going to change things.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I agree with what you say re the tainting and the updates. But there is tainting of an old storyline and then there is violation of it, and if Audrey was raped as some say, then imo purely in the case of her individual storyline, it's a distasteful step too far as it would be completely unnecessary to the plot line, apart from to produce the devils spawn, and if that is the reason why then TP3 imo could seriously do without him.

I don't think it would be distasteful (obviously talking just as a drama factor, not the act itself). It would add a layer to Mr. C. story, as he was ready to hit from day one. Now, I want to see how it evolves before judging as it is clear that we will see more about this. However there's one question I have: did he do it so that Audrey was pregnant? Is so, why?


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Maybe we'll find out next episode, as if he did it, he's now teamed up with his 'son'.

[yaxomoxay]

I agree with what you say re the tainting and the updates. But there is tainting of an old storyline and then there is violation of it, and if Audrey was raped as some say, then imo purely in the case of her individual storyline, it's a distasteful step too far as it would be completely unnecessary to the plot line, apart from to produce the devils spawn, and if that is the reason why then TP3 imo could seriously do without him.

I don't think it would be distasteful (obviously talking just as a drama factor, not the act itself). It would add a layer to Mr. C. story, as he was ready to hit from day one. Now, I want to see how it evolves before judging as it is clear that we will see more about this. However there's one question I have: did he do it so that Audrey was pregnant? Is so, why?


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Maybe we'll find out next episode, as if he did it, he's now teamed up with his 'son'.

In all fairness to Richard, the other option is not much better. John Justice Wheeler jumped off the Titanic leaving all those kids and women behind




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[mlsstwrt]

Likewise, the unpleasant theory that Richard Horne is the product of rape - this carries no dramatic weight if the viewer doesn't understand the relationship between Cooper and Audrey in the original series. But if it does turn out that Audrey was raped by (who she thought was) Cooper, it'll leave a pretty nasty taste in the mouth. I mean, how will it possible to watch the Audrey and Cooper scenes in the original series knowing that this is going to happen? Remember, Audrey was a teenage girl - a child, basically - infatuated with a grown man who tried to avoid putting her in danger and ended up saving her life. Honestly, watching this whole series, it seems more and more like the whole thing is a deliberate act of vandalism.

Yes this is a truly upsetting thought and if it becomes true, then I don't see how it can't taint the original series. Whether she was conscious or not when attacked and even though it wasn't the actual Dale Cooper who did it it's still something that messes with your head. We'll see if they give the whole back story soon though quite honestly, I'm not sure that I really want to hear it.

I, and others, keep contending this but many people disagree. I do strongly agree that much of The Return is a deliberate act of vandalism. Just assuming for a moment that that is the case I would like to know what is driving it. I'm not saying anything new but I find little darkness in The Return but a surfeit of ugliness, nastiness, banal brutality. Lynch has never really struck me as the tortured type (others may well be able to refute that). I think he said something to the effect that in great art, the characters should suffer but the artist shouldn't. Plus he just generally seems contented as a person, in interviews, etc. Not that that necessarily gives a true picture.

I do have a suspicion that Lynch has a fair amount of contempt for hardcore TP fans (i.e. us). Again if it's true I don't really begrudge him that. Even Dugpa called us nerds. I think this board is incredibly nerdy and people will spend twenty pages discussing something that Lynch may only have given passing thought to. It must be weird when every single thing you do is credited with massive significance.

The best thing I can say about The Return is that I admire Lynch for basically not pandering to his audience at all. That's very admirable in itself.

I'm not that interested in this anymore but I like coming into this thread and talking to you all so I'll carry on watching!

[mlsstwrt]

She means that she won't be able to watch Audrey and Coop's scene as they were anymore, which is totally legitimate.
My point is that each additional episode is going to "taint" something from previous episodes. Any update is going to "taint" what was there. The only way not to "taint" is to not do any new episodes.
By definition the new series was going to change things.


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I agree with what you say re the tainting and the updates. But there is tainting of an old storyline and then there is violation of it, and if Audrey was raped as some say, then imo purely in the case of her individual storyline, it's a distasteful step too far as it would be completely unnecessary to the plot line, apart from to produce the devils spawn, and if that is the reason why then TP3 imo could seriously do without him.

I don't necessarily agree Yaxomoxay. 'Taint' is pejorative not a neutral word. 'Change' and 'Taint' do noe mean the same thing. Change can be positive. Tainting is not positive.

I have to salute Reindeer's posts - incredibly balanced and fair.

[AnotherBlueRoseCase]

That's another considered, well-written post, LateReg, even if I disagree with it entirely. My friends and I have been debating not whether The Return is one of the greatest dramas ever made, but whether or not it's the very worst, for the reasons detailed upthread. I'm not saying it is in fact the worst, but the fact that we've been asking ourselves this question frequently just feels quite sad, considering our histories with the original and FWWM. Favourite TV episode (ep. 14) and favourite movie, followed decades later by one of the worst things we've ever seen -- that's quite a plummet.

At the same time it's hard not to feel a degree of respect for Lynch and Frost for the unbelievable ballsiness of what they attempted here. Broadcasting an eighteen-hour TV drama equivalent of Metal Machine Music at their age is really something.

The whole phenomenon of The Return feels like some cosmic joke perfectly in tune with these insane times. Here's hoping there's some other spacetime continuum in which our Nazi Benny Hill is rotting in jail for sex crimes and when Lynch weighed up fourteen episodes of Dougie Jones he decided not to bother.

[mlsstwrt]

That's another considered, well-written post, LateReg, even if I disagree with it entirely. My friends and I have been debating not whether The Return is one of the greatest dramas ever made, but whether or not it's the very worst, for the reasons detailed upthread. I'm not saying it is in fact the worst, but the fact that we've been asking ourselves this question frequently just feels quite sad, considering our histories with the original and FWWM. Favourite TV episode (ep. 14) and favourite movie, followed decades later by one of the worst things we've ever seen -- that's quite a plummet.

At the same time it's hard not to feel a degree of respect for Lynch and Frost for the unbelievable ballsiness of what they attempted here. Broadcasting an eighteen-hour TV drama equivalent of Metal Machine Music at their age is really something.

The whole phenomenon of The Return feels like some cosmic joke perfectly in tune with these insane times. Here's hoping there's some other spacetime continuum in which our Nazi Benny Hill is rotting in jail for sex crimes and when Lynch weighed up fourteen episodes of Dougie Jones he decided not to bother.

Hey ABR, wish I were involved in those discussions! Just having friends would be nice, lol.

Anyway yeah for me it's one of the worst things I've seen. Unfortunately that's in absolute terms not just relative the Original or the expectations I had.

As per my post up the page I do have to admire the 'unbelievable balsiness'. It's incredible actually and I respect them for that alone. Respect Showtime too for airing this.