Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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laughingpinecone
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by laughingpinecone »

LateReg wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote: As yet another diverging opinion, I was surprised by how little 'regular Coop' we got... ...and I hate pt16 Coop. I appreciate his role in the story if I frame him in a certain specific way, which I find very easy with the way the story continues, but I've found nothing in interviews to support my interpretation that it's intended to be anything but a 'crowning moment of awesome', which I reeeeally loathe. "I am the FBI" within 20 minutes of the FBI storyline culminating in the tragedy of killing Diane? That's rough, buddy.
'My Coop' is only in the red room/bw scenes, in the FWWM time travel, and in the very final scene. That's not a lot of Coop! Thankfully I find the Vegas storyline full of moving Cooper moments, and I appreciate this kaleidoscope approach to Dale Cooper in general, so I'm good. But damn if that pt16 doesn't leave me squinting...
I think that Part 16 Cooper is awesome, but I also think it's more than just that. It's finally what we want, and it's too good to last. In the study of identity, it's also an example of how Dougie contained all the best traits of our Cooper - once Cooper finally wakes, he's fully formed because that's just who he is - he didn't need to gradually come back to himself, he was always there inside Dougie in the form of our Cooper's core components that can't be changed. I think you're right to question what you're seeing there, even as my instinct was to just love that moment and want to live in it forever, which fits the themes of nostalgia. And I love how that moment ends with Diane freaking out, remembering, and then marching her way to Cole's hotel room to the same theme we heard when first introduced to Evil Cooper. I think that's a perfect and meaningful swing, and one of my favorite transitions; I felt it deeply...specifically that something wasn't quite right. At any rate, I think that there's a lot going on in that Cooper scene and it's ok to doubt what you're seeing. Personally, I never found it hollow like some people did.
I originally added the following as an ETA after bowisneski seemed to share my same unpopular opinion in the post above mine, but the conversation has already moved forward, so new post it is^^;
I see that Cooper as Cooper hyperperforming what he perceives as himself. He's the one who desperately wants to be 'the old Dale Cooper', so that's what he acts like. Imho it makes sense for HIM to be inordinately hyped by the feeling of being himself again, of having agency again, as if nothing of this tragedy had transpired at all. Like the way he talks to 'Harry' on the phone, as if no time had passed. Everything is good again! He can be the hero triumphant! A Cool Guy (tm) who drives Sports Cars (tm) and has his adoring family remark on it. A completely understandable mood swing after 25 years AWOL + his week as Dougie, I'd say, and another facet of the whole Dale Cooper. Definitely part of this whole study of identity. So it makes sense for me. But it's definitely not the Cooper I wanted.
And I know it's not what Mfrost and Kmac are saying, so it's my interpretation but I won't push it as the intended meaning.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

laughingpinecone wrote:As yet another diverging opinion, I was surprised by how little 'regular Coop' we got... ...and I hate pt16 Coop. I appreciate his role in the story if I frame him in a certain specific way, which I find very easy with the way the story continues, but I've found nothing in interviews to support my interpretation that it's intended to be anything but a 'crowning moment of awesome', which I reeeeally loathe. "I am the FBI" within 20 minutes of the FBI storyline culminating in the tragedy of killing Diane? That's rough, buddy.
I think “I am the FBI” is meant to be a fist pump moment on initial viewing, but I think the viewer is meant to question both the moment and his/her initial gut reaction upon reflection/rewatches in light of Part 18, particularly the diner scene where he is cold and menacing while saying something that almost certainly deliberately echoes this moment (I believe he says, “It’s OK. I’m with the FBI,” as an excuse for swinging his gun around and ordering the waitress to give him an address). “I am the FBI” is such an egotistical statement; our charming old-school Dale Cooper can get away with it in the euphoria of that moment...but much of the remaining two hours is meant to make us rethink what that says about his hubris.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by LateReg »

laughingpinecone wrote: I originally added the following as an ETA after bowisneski seemed to share my same unpopular opinion in the post above mine, but the conversation has already moved forward, so new post it is^^;
I see that Cooper as Cooper hyperperforming what he perceives as himself. He's the one who desperately wants to be 'the old Dale Cooper', so that's what he acts like. Imho it makes sense for HIM to be inordinately hyped by the feeling of being himself again, of having agency again, as if nothing of this tragedy had transpired at all. Like the way he talks to 'Harry' on the phone, as if no time had passed. Everything is good again! He can be the hero triumphant! A Cool Guy (tm) who drives Sports Cars (tm) and has his adoring family remark on it. A completely understandable mood swing after 25 years AWOL + his week as Dougie, I'd say, and another facet of the whole Dale Cooper. Definitely part of this whole study of identity. So it makes sense for me. But it's definitely not the Cooper I wanted.
And I know it's not what Mfrost and Kmac are saying, so it's my interpretation but I won't push it as the intended meaning.
Yeah, I think that's a sound interpretation.

Also, what Mr. Reindeer said. So interesting. A lot of reflections and mirrors.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by bowisneski »

laughingpinecone wrote:As yet another diverging opinion, I was surprised by how little 'regular Coop' we got... ...and I hate pt16 Coop. I appreciate his role in the story if I frame him in a certain specific way, which I find very easy with the way the story continues, but I've found nothing in interviews to support my interpretation that it's intended to be anything but a 'crowning moment of awesome', which I reeeeally loathe. "I am the FBI" within 20 minutes of the FBI storyline culminating in the tragedy of killing Diane? That's rough, buddy.
'My Coop' is only in the red room/bw scenes, in the FWWM time travel, and in the very final scene. That's not a lot of Coop! Thankfully I find the Vegas storyline full of moving Cooper moments, and I appreciate this kaleidoscope approach to Dale Cooper in general, so I'm good. But damn if that pt16 doesn't leave me squinting...
I originally added the following as an ETA after bowisneski seemed to share my same unpopular opinion in the post above mine, but the conversation has already moved forward, so new post it is^^;
I see that Cooper as Cooper hyperperforming what he perceives as himself. He's the one who desperately wants to be 'the old Dale Cooper', so that's what he acts like. Imho it makes sense for HIM to be inordinately hyped by the feeling of being himself again, of having agency again, as if nothing of this tragedy had transpired at all. Like the way he talks to 'Harry' on the phone, as if no time had passed. Everything is good again! He can be the hero triumphant! A Cool Guy (tm) who drives Sports Cars (tm) and has his adoring family remark on it. A completely understandable mood swing after 25 years AWOL + his week as Dougie, I'd say, and another facet of the whole Dale Cooper. Definitely part of this whole study of identity. So it makes sense for me. But it's definitely not the Cooper I wanted.
And I know it's not what Mfrost and Kmac are saying, so it's my interpretation but I won't push it as the intended meaning.
I totally agree across the board. And it kind of sucks being disappointed by the one thing that so many people seemed to love and want more of.

The Vegas payoffs like Part 11 are so powerful because we know Cooper is experiencing those moments, he just has an inability to truly react or express himself in a way anyone in the Vegas storyline would recognize, but we see his reaction through his eyes and we can appreciate the ways in which others interact with him and he touches them and improves their lives. In many cases making up for some of the evil of Mr. C.

Agree with the hyperperforming as well. From a straight forward story perspective, I see it as this is the essence of the chipper "good" part of Cooper regaining full consciousness and being thrilled that if his plan succeeds, he'll truly make up for lost time and never get stuck in the Lodge. As well as not wanting to worry or tip off those around him.

From a meta-analysis perspective, I tend to agree with Mr. Reindeer.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Audrey Horne »

What I will say about why I liked episode Cooper being as alert and strong as he was is that it didn’t waste any time and was efficient (finally)... that we then didn’t meander with him grappling with the new world... that essentially his twenty five years was not wasted, he was tuned into his surroundings and enlightened.

And logically maybe it only worked for me because it was wrapped in nostalgia... I watched so much of the series cerebral, and the times I had an honest emotional reaction were things like the first Road House song with James and Shelly, Cooper being Cooper, and Audrey dancing and being Audrey again instantly in the mirror. Honestly, those were the three moments that took my thinking, critical brain out of the equation and was just lost in the magic of the world.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by chromereflectsimage »

My reaction to part 16 is that it felt too easy and fake. I knew Lynch had subvert it some way in the finale. The 'Richard' version of Cooper is what felt the most realistic to me, an integration of the Cooper's and of someone who's had a rough 25 years.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

I don’t want to derail this thread with theorizing, and this conversation should probably move elsewhere if it’s to continue, but I will just add that Diane seems to be an important part of the switch from classic Cooper to the more somber Mr. C-esque Richard. The second that he recognizes Naido to be Diane, he looks away as if in shame, the superimposed head appears, and he immediately changes gears, becoming much more laser-focused and less chipper. It’s interesting to me that it’s that moment, not the death of Mr. C, that transforms him. I really think the Cooper/Diane dynamic is an enormous piece of whatever the show is getting at.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by LateReg »

chromereflectsimage wrote:My reaction to part 16 is that it felt too easy and fake. I knew Lynch had subvert it some way in the finale. The 'Richard' version of Cooper is what felt the most realistic to me, an integration of the Cooper's and of someone who's had a rough 25 years.
My reaction was pure unadulterated joy. And I still have that reaction every time I watch it...my hear literally beats way too fast. But at the same time I recognize what you and others and myself have been getting at from an intellectual angle, but usually after it's over (perhaps during Eddie Vedder's downbeat, frank song) because over and over again I get caught up in the moment. I'm glad that it works both ways at once for me, and so of course I view that to be its intended double function, especially as I regard the Dougie aspect of Cooper's identity, that is, Dougie comprised of all the defining traits of our Cooper, which are fully available to him all at once as soon as he wakes up. And I just remembered that Lynch's direction to Kyle in the BTS footage shortly after that is that it's like no time has passed at all for Cooper as 25 years have passed for everybody else. That's interesting. Also important to note is that the one armed man is directly speaking for/along with the audience when Cooper wakes: "finally." So that scene is definitely inviting the audience to consider what it is they want and what they're seeing. Despite that, I still think it works like gangbusters on a surface level and is a wonderful scene that works so well for many because of all the pent up uncertainty of 15 hours wondering if he'll ever come back. I love acknowledging that that's what I want - I wish I too could return to my best self - and so I love the feeling it gives me, even if it is a trick.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by AnotherBlueRoseCase »

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by mtwentz »

IMHO, there's no reason for antagonism on this or any other thread of dugpa, at least at this point now that the show is over . I think we should continue to have a productive discussion, whether you liked the show or not. All theories welcome, all viewpoints welcome but I think we can all do better to avoid personal attacks, attacks on the physical appearances of the actresses, ageism, sexism etc.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Deep Thought »

AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:Some were then asked to link to places online where they’d said they were okay with audience antagonism this extreme, singly or together, in works not made by David Lynch. The idea behind these requests was clear: show us you’re okay with this stuff for its own sake and not just because it was sprung upon us by the Master.
I really have no idea what you mean by "audience antagonism," other than it being just another way of saying you didn't like TR or it didn't meet your expectations. If you mean that the show featured "incoherence, ugliness, tediousness, narcissism, randomness, etc," and you are looking for defenders of the form to prove some point, there are plenty of us, and perhaps I truly am the first one jumping to defend similar works on a TP message forum! :wink:

Here's a very small list of stuff I am OK with for its own sake (and not because David Lynch was involved), which I know for certain many, many people find incoherent, random, ugly, tedious, narcissistic etc. not to mention episodic. I have seen lots of people get just as angry as folks in this thread (or whatever emotion it is that needs a support group) after watching or listening to 3 minutes of these great works.

Movies:

Most of these directors have several masterpieces, not all of them fitting the descriptors above. Also, I stopped at ten, but could have easily listed 20, and I could list 100 with a little effort. The Return is groundbreaking TV but hardly stands alone in cinema. It is in good company. Many people on Dugpa have said as much, so your premise of the "damnations of silence" is flawed, to say the least.

Tarr: A Torinoi Lo
Jodorowsky: The Holy Mountain
Jarmusch: Dead Man
Denis: Beau Travail
Herzog: Heart of Glass
Noe: Enter the Void
Tarkovsky: Andrei Rublev
Dreyer: Ordet
Kiarostami: The Wind Will Carry Us (I actually do not like this movie at all, but I'm not ready to call the legions that do like it Kiarostami sycophants)

And the old saw that's been brought out countless times on Dugpa:
Kubrick: 2001 (paging Charlton Heston)

Music:

It actually would be pointless to make a list of 10 works, as all you need to do is listen to just about anything "serious" written in the last 75 years. So I'll just list 2 very different pieces that I think may be more accessible to the non-musician than say John Cage's stuff. But come to think of it, John Cage is a great example of the type of thing we're discussing, and there are probably thousands of forum discussion online about him which contain the same level of vitriol in this thread.

Glass: Music in 12 Parts
Xenakis: Jonchaies

Painting:

The COBRA movement [drops mike]
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by AnotherBlueRoseCase »

That wasn't what was being asked for, Deep Thought. Maybe read again the bit you quoted.

Fans were saying they were OKAY with the show’s levels of incoherence, ugliness, tediousness, narcissism, randomness, etc, and with the portrayal of older women, the retcon, it was all a dream, etc. Not disputing them, but that they were okay with them. They were then asked for links where they'd said they were OKAY with this kind of stuff in non-Lynch works, and none did so. Can you provide any links of this kind?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by Deep Thought »

I admit to being very dense at times, but I thought I was giving "links" to just those kind of things in the movies/music I am listing. Between those movies there are plenty of those qualities you mention, and I am OK with them. Sorry if I am missing your point. :(

Do you want a link to someone saying about some non-Lynch work, "I loved the tediousness of it all." If so, then that is what I am saying about the works above, especially A Torinoi Lo.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by AnotherBlueRoseCase »

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by mtwentz »

There was nothing 'random' about sticking the fork in the electric socket. It was Cooper remember in he had come out of a socket, or subconsciously recognizing he needed to shock himself again in order to wake up fully.
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