Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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yaxomoxay
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by yaxomoxay »

mtwentz wrote:
NormoftheAndes wrote:
Audrey Horne wrote:I get that, and it’s wonderful for it to be a success and a joy for you. And remember though I am someone who hated the second half of the second season, and aside from the soundtrack is left cold from FWWM. What I loved about Peaks was how tight it was, like a drum, in that first season... yet still left my imagination roam. I think I was expecting with the pre planning Lynch and Frost did to be tight again.... with obviously it still being ambiguous, I just felt I was watching acting and filmmaking exercises. I’ll take and look at moments, but as a while I’m not lost in the story.

A little boy is mowed down in a hit and run. If this were the pilot in 1990, how does that pain reverberate through a small town... that ripple effect where it haunts everyone. Not saying ones opinion is right and ones wrong, just for me nothing really affected me in a moving way, more just cerebral while waiting for the next week’s installment.
But the boy being mowed down feels very staged and false. The response of onlookers looks like terrible bad acting - this is not just some accident on Lynch's part. The onlookers were locals and chosen for their poor acting I am pretty sure. None of this part of the show is comparable to the Laura repercussions and its treated very differently. What the meaning of the boy being run down is - that's another question! :D Maybe someone here has a better idea.
From a plot perspective, it's pretty clear what the accident means- it's the major event that eventually leads to Richard leaving town and confronting his father. It also gives us important insight to his character.

From an emotional standpoint, I think it's purpose is to show ultimately what havoc Cooper's choices have caused in Twin Peaks, the real human consequences- he has unleashed a monster upon the town. At least that's the emotion that I feel everytime I see that scene with the Badalamenti's moving Accident/Farewell theme.
Let’s put it this way. If Cooper had never ventured into the Black Lodge to save Annie, the innocent kid would still be alive. I think that the function of the dramatic scene of the kid’s death is to show that unfortunately good intentions will not ease pain as a whole. Actually, saving Annie probably caused more pain than anything.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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yaxomoxay wrote:Let’s put it this way. If Cooper had never ventured into the Black Lodge to save Annie, the innocent kid would still be alive. I think that the function of the dramatic scene of the kid’s death is to show that unfortunately good intentions will not ease pain as a whole. Actually, saving Annie probably caused more pain than anything.
If that was the intent, it’s interesting that we see Richard commit many intentional crimes indicating his vicious nature (assaulting Sylvia and Miriam, sexually assaulting and possibly raping Charlotte), but the greatest tragedy he causes is due to reckless behavior, not his violent nature. Driving while high, reckless driving/road rage and fleeing an accident scene are all crimes, but his killing the boy isn’t the result of the darkness in him that Cooper’s actions released into the world...at least, not as directly as his other crimes.
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Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Mr. Reindeer wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:Let’s put it this way. If Cooper had never ventured into the Black Lodge to save Annie, the innocent kid would still be alive. I think that the function of the dramatic scene of the kid’s death is to show that unfortunately good intentions will not ease pain as a whole. Actually, saving Annie probably caused more pain than anything.
If that was the intent, it’s interesting that we see Richard commit many intentional crimes indicating his vicious nature (assaulting Sylvia and Miriam, sexually assaulting and possibly raping Charlotte), but the greatest tragedy he causes is due to reckless behavior, not his violent nature. Driving while high, reckless driving/road rage and fleeing an accident scene are all crimes, but his killing the boy isn’t the result of the darkness in him that Cooper’s actions released into the world...at least, not as directly as his other crimes.
I strongly, vehemently disagree. One reason is TP related, but the main reason is of a different nature.
Let’s start with the easy one, TP. The fact that the kid died is due to reckless behavior exactly as Cooper venturing into the Lodge to save a girl. Both characters clearly display no interest to the bigger issues at hand despite being warned about it (Cooper by Hawk among others, Richard by his driver license teacher and the law). They don’t stop for a second to think about unintended consequences and possibilities. Richard drives with the same force Coop enters the Lodge and the damage is done even if not on purpose.
The second reason is of a social nature. We’re not talking about an unintentional DWI in which the driver is barely above the limit because he had one beer too many. Richard used a powerful drug, given to him by a drug lord for which he wants to work for, with the idea of defeating the law. Presumably this ain’t even the first time he drives under the influence. He disregards basic common sense, basic traffic laws, and he makes a conscious choice with his actions. He’s a violent criminal and this behavior - which I suppose is more about power over other people as often violent criminals are - has direct consequences even if those consequences are not directly sought. Richard Horne’s was murder. Not premeditated murder, but it is still murder under ethical grounds and also the law.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Ah ok so the argument is that Cooper released something damaging from the Black Lodge - on a cosmic level?

I would tend to agree with that more than any of these definitive ideas about Mr C raping Audrey etc.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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NormoftheAndes wrote:Ah ok so the argument is that Cooper released something damaging from the Black Lodge - on a cosmic level?

I would tend to agree with that more than any of these definitive ideas about Mr C raping Audrey etc.
In this case it’s not a matter of cosmic level - if I understand what you mean correctly - but a direct consequence. Kind of a butterfly effect on steroids and red bull.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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yaxomoxay wrote:I strongly, vehemently disagree. One reason is TP related, but the main reason is of a different nature.
Let’s start with the easy one, TP. The fact that the kid died is due to reckless behavior exactly as Cooper venturing into the Lodge to save a girl. Both characters clearly display no interest to the bigger issues at hand despite being warned about it (Cooper by Hawk among others, Richard by his driver license teacher and the law). They don’t stop for a second to think about unintended consequences and possibilities. Richard drives with the same force Coop enters the Lodge and the damage is done even if not on purpose.
The second reason is of a social nature. We’re not talking about an unintentional DWI in which the driver is barely above the limit because he had one beer too many. Richard used a powerful drug, given to him by a drug lord for which he wants to work for, with the idea of defeating the law. Presumably this ain’t even the first time he drives under the influence. He disregards basic common sense, basic traffic laws, and he makes a conscious choice with his actions. He’s a violent criminal and this behavior - which I suppose is more about power over other people as often violent criminals are - has direct consequences even if those consequences are not directly sought. Richard Horne’s was murder. Not premeditated murder, but it is still murder under ethical grounds and also the law.
I think in most jurisdictions, Richard is at best, as Sailor Ripley would say, a manslaughterer. I don’t think many people are convicted of vehicular murder without showing direct intent to kill or at least injure.

I do like your first point, re: Richard’s recklessness paralleling Cooper’s. As far as the driving under the influence, I think it’s debatable how much the drug is really to blame for the accident. Certainly one should never drive after taking drugs, but I think we only see Richard take a “sample” snort, right? I have no idea how messed up someone would get from that amount of a “designer drug,” but my impression was that Richard’s hotheadedness was more to blame than the drug (although both are factors). We know he is prone to flying off the handle for little or no reason, and Red belittled him. Richard is pretty much the quintessential road rager, due to his anger issues. I’m not certain that his actions would have been too different had he been stone cold sober.

But I’m geting off track. What I was trying to say is that the approach L/F took to showing the darkness Cooper released into the world isn’t the intuitive/obvious approach, which would be hanging a tragedy on a Bob-style act of violence and sadism. What they did (if that was indeed the intent) is to take a more nuanced, unpredictable approach, and I think you articulated one great thing that this approach accomplishes (paralleling Cooper’s recklessness). I didn’t mean to imply that I thought it was a poor storytelling choice — just an interesting, and seemingly very conscious, one.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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NormoftheAndes wrote:Ah ok so the argument is that Cooper released something damaging from the Black Lodge - on a cosmic level?

I would tend to agree with that more than any of these definitive ideas about Mr C raping Audrey etc.
I think it’s pretty obvious that Mr. C raped Audrey on a “literal” story level, although, as LateReg and others have theorized, the world of the show seems to be simultaneously “real” and psychological. On some level much of it can be read as a manifestation of Cooper’s fractured psyche, and perhaps also the overlapping psyches/dreamscapes of various other characters seeping in, a bit like DKL’s beloved Unified Field. However, I don’t think we can draw lines between reality and fiction as easily as in Mulholland Drive, or even the more complex INLAND EMPIRE. While Mr. C’s rape of Audrey may in some sense be a manifestation of his repressed desires, I think it also literally happened on some plane of reality, and had severe repercussions on Audrey’s mental state.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by yaxomoxay »

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:I strongly, vehemently disagree. One reason is TP related, but the main reason is of a different nature.
Let’s start with the easy one, TP. The fact that the kid died is due to reckless behavior exactly as Cooper venturing into the Lodge to save a girl. Both characters clearly display no interest to the bigger issues at hand despite being warned about it (Cooper by Hawk among others, Richard by his driver license teacher and the law). They don’t stop for a second to think about unintended consequences and possibilities. Richard drives with the same force Coop enters the Lodge and the damage is done even if not on purpose.
The second reason is of a social nature. We’re not talking about an unintentional DWI in which the driver is barely above the limit because he had one beer too many. Richard used a powerful drug, given to him by a drug lord for which he wants to work for, with the idea of defeating the law. Presumably this ain’t even the first time he drives under the influence. He disregards basic common sense, basic traffic laws, and he makes a conscious choice with his actions. He’s a violent criminal and this behavior - which I suppose is more about power over other people as often violent criminals are - has direct consequences even if those consequences are not directly sought. Richard Horne’s was murder. Not premeditated murder, but it is still murder under ethical grounds and also the law.
I think in most jurisdictions, Richard is at best, as Sailor Ripley would say, a manslaughterer. I don’t think many people are convicted of vehicular murder without showing direct intent to kill or at least injure.

I do like your first point, re: Richard’s recklessness paralleling Cooper’s. As far as the driving under the influence, I think it’s debatable how much the drug is really to blame for the accident. Certainly one should never drive after taking drugs, but I think we only see Richard take a “sample” snort, right? I have no idea how messed up someone would get from that amount of a “designer drug,” but my impression was that Richard’s hotheadedness was more to blame than the drug (although both are factors). We know he is prone to flying off the handle for little or no reason, and Red belittled him. Richard is pretty much the quintessential road rager, due to his anger issues. I’m not certain that his actions would have been too different had he been stone cold sober.

But I’m geting off track. What I was trying to say is that the approach L/F took to showing the darkness Cooper released into the world isn’t the intuitive/obvious approach, which would be hanging a tragedy on a Bob-style act of violence and sadism. What they did (if that was indeed the intent) is to take a more nuanced, unpredictable approach, and I think you articulated one great thing that this approach accomplishes (paralleling Cooper’s recklessness). I didn’t mean to imply that I thought it was a poor storytelling choice — just an interesting, and seemingly very conscious, one.
I agree that convicting him of murder would be an uphill battle, so most prosecutors would probably go for the safest route to get a conviction and charge him with manslaughter. But in general, we can say that it was murder and in the perfect legal world juries would convict him of murder. Richard shows reckless behavior and total disregard for human life. His history is of violence (including at least a count of domestic violence and attempted premeditated murder), and he does not even show remorse. For him there is no moral difference between killing a child or a deer.

I think that his being a drug addict and drug lord wannabe is just a consequence of his attitude towards life in general. He wants power and money (possibly more than his grandaddy), and he wants it fast. His taking the drug only enhances a pre-existing behavior. My understanding is that Lynch hates drugs, so he might use Richards as a way to convey his fear of drugs as they make you lose common sense.

I do agree with your last point. I think that unintended consequences are one of the keys to understand this show, and Richard is the prime example of a seemingly good action that causes more mayhem than anything. Another example, although at the polar opposite, is Jacoby’s shovel. Jacoby talks about big pharma, illuminati etc, but it causes a domino effect of a different kind that unchains a woman from her twisted way of loving a man he never loved her, which causes him to propose to his true love after 25 years, which causes her to renounce to big business (that is, what Jacoby hates and rants against). Indirectly, the shovel is used more by Norma than Nadine.



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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Heh, that’s a neat point about Jacoby and Norma. That gives me a new appreciation for the rather cliché/rushed Walter storyline.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Mr. Reindeer wrote:Heh, that’s a neat point about Jacoby and Norma. That gives me a new appreciation for the rather cliché/rushed Walter storyline.
It’s definitely a pretty weak storyline, but it’s not that terrible either; it has its merits.


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Mr. Reindeer wrote:
NormoftheAndes wrote:Ah ok so the argument is that Cooper released something damaging from the Black Lodge - on a cosmic level?

I would tend to agree with that more than any of these definitive ideas about Mr C raping Audrey etc.
I think it’s pretty obvious that Mr. C raped Audrey on a “literal” story level, although, as LateReg and others have theorized, the world of the show seems to be simultaneously “real” and psychological. On some level much of it can be read as a manifestation of Cooper’s fractured psyche, and perhaps also the overlapping psyches/dreamscapes of various other characters seeping in, a bit like DKL’s beloved Unified Field. However, I don’t think we can draw lines between reality and fiction as easily as in Mulholland Drive, or even the more complex INLAND EMPIRE. While Mr. C’s rape of Audrey may in some sense be a manifestation of his repressed desires, I think it also literally happened on some plane of reality, and had severe repercussions on Audrey’s mental state.
This is often my interpretation as well Cooper nerver leasing thé lodge until he has defeated his doppelganger. Thé lodge should know about thé tulpa bussiness and dont be fooled by thé Dougie switch. If that was the case he should have been able ro walk out into Glaatonebury Grove already in Ep. 2 as he walks the exakt same corridors in ep. 18 just going out with no problens. Of course this is after the Double is defeated, sittning in a chair burning.

Whats more i Think that up to The Curtain Call more or less everything is the final test för Dale WITHIN the lodge. This is supported by many things. Lodge spirits like The Arm and Gerard helping hon from the lodge to help him get the best chances not go die/lose in the manufactured lodge World, lodge spirits infuencing the Mitchuns through dreams. Theres also the red Curtain and the Red Room corridors showing up at The Silver Mustang and Szsymons and espeacially the fact of the Great Northern key. Many saw this as proof Dougie was in the physical but notice both the function of the key and its inscription that was on it - a quote GN nerver used by them but only by Cooper in the og series. And them all of talk of WE LIKE INSIDE A DREAM.

I Think the final konfrontation beetween Doppel or Coop betting a chance again meet and this time defeat hls double efter 25 testa and he now succéedded. I Think this Bleeds out in the so so called real World smile like Richard or Tulpa Diane.

Cant write more on my Phoene bit theres s log more SO BEAR WITH ME
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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yaxomoxay wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:Heh, that’s a neat point about Jacoby and Norma. That gives me a new appreciation for the rather cliché/rushed Walter storyline.
It’s definitely a pretty weak storyline, but it’s not that terrible either; it has its merits.


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I am perfectly good with the Walter storyline. To me, it fits in with the random eavesdropping, just-checking-in approach to storytelling. Sure, he's Norma's lover, but he's also a big fat nothing in that regard, a stop gap before true happiness, and he's also nothing more than her business manager, and it wouldn't feel at all strange to only see her business manager once just so we could check in with how she's doing. They also waited a long time to introduce Walter - and I don't think he would have benefited from more screen time - which put a lot of suspense and offered a payoff to why Norma is always doing so much paperwork, which also fits the show's M.O. when it comes to characters like Jacoby and his shovel painting. And within Walter's short time, Lynch played us like a fiddle or some such instrument, giving us emotional peaks and valleys. And I know I've mentioned this to Reindeer long ago, but Walter's role was also hugely metatextual, focusing as it did on the watered down ingredients that go into pale imitations of the real thing that are done just to turn a profit. I think there's too much happening there and happening in tongue-in-cheek ways to consider his storyline rushed or cliched. It's seems like another example of Lynch/Frost playing a fun game with expectations and toying with emotions and I've never had a problem with it.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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claaa7 wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
NormoftheAndes wrote:Ah ok so the argument is that Cooper released something damaging from the Black Lodge - on a cosmic level?

I would tend to agree with that more than any of these definitive ideas about Mr C raping Audrey etc.
I think it’s pretty obvious that Mr. C raped Audrey on a “literal” story level, although, as LateReg and others have theorized, the world of the show seems to be simultaneously “real” and psychological. On some level much of it can be read as a manifestation of Cooper’s fractured psyche, and perhaps also the overlapping psyches/dreamscapes of various other characters seeping in, a bit like DKL’s beloved Unified Field. However, I don’t think we can draw lines between reality and fiction as easily as in Mulholland Drive, or even the more complex INLAND EMPIRE. While Mr. C’s rape of Audrey may in some sense be a manifestation of his repressed desires, I think it also literally happened on some plane of reality, and had severe repercussions on Audrey’s mental state.
This is often my interpretation as well Cooper nerver leasing thé lodge until he has defeated his doppelganger. Thé lodge should know about thé tulpa bussiness and dont be fooled by thé Dougie switch. If that was the case he should have been able ro walk out into Glaatonebury Grove already in Ep. 2 as he walks the exakt same corridors in ep. 18 just going out with no problens. Of course this is after the Double is defeated, sittning in a chair burning.

Whats more i Think that up to The Curtain Call more or less everything is the final test för Dale WITHIN the lodge. This is supported by many things. Lodge spirits like The Arm and Gerard helping hon from the lodge to help him get the best chances not go die/lose in the manufactured lodge World, lodge spirits infuencing the Mitchuns through dreams. Theres also the red Curtain and the Red Room corridors showing up at The Silver Mustang and Szsymons and espeacially the fact of the Great Northern key. Many saw this as proof Dougie was in the physical but notice both the function of the key and its inscription that was on it - a quote GN nerver used by them but only by Cooper in the og series. And them all of talk of WE LIKE INSIDE A DREAM.

I Think the final konfrontation beetween Doppel or Coop betting a chance again meet and this time defeat hls double efter 25 testa and he now succéedded. I Think this Bleeds out in the so so called real World smile like Richard or Tulpa Diane.

Cant write more on my Phoene bit theres s log more SO BEAR WITH ME
Hope to hear more from you. I'm with you very much on the theory that Cooper is still in the Lodge even by the end of season 3 - perhaps. If anyone can tell me exactly when he does escape then I'll listen for sure but I'm not convinced so far.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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NormoftheAndes wrote:
claaa7 wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
I think it’s pretty obvious that Mr. C raped Audrey on a “literal” story level, although, as LateReg and others have theorized, the world of the show seems to be simultaneously “real” and psychological. On some level much of it can be read as a manifestation of Cooper’s fractured psyche, and perhaps also the overlapping psyches/dreamscapes of various other characters seeping in, a bit like DKL’s beloved Unified Field. However, I don’t think we can draw lines between reality and fiction as easily as in Mulholland Drive, or even the more complex INLAND EMPIRE. While Mr. C’s rape of Audrey may in some sense be a manifestation of his repressed desires, I think it also literally happened on some plane of reality, and had severe repercussions on Audrey’s mental state.
This is often my interpretation as well Cooper nerver leasing thé lodge until he has defeated his doppelganger. Thé lodge should know about thé tulpa bussiness and dont be fooled by thé Dougie switch. If that was the case he should have been able ro walk out into Glaatonebury Grove already in Ep. 2 as he walks the exakt same corridors in ep. 18 just going out with no problens. Of course this is after the Double is defeated, sittning in a chair burning.

Whats more i Think that up to The Curtain Call more or less everything is the final test för Dale WITHIN the lodge. This is supported by many things. Lodge spirits like The Arm and Gerard helping hon from the lodge to help him get the best chances not go die/lose in the manufactured lodge World, lodge spirits infuencing the Mitchuns through dreams. Theres also the red Curtain and the Red Room corridors showing up at The Silver Mustang and Szsymons and espeacially the fact of the Great Northern key. Many saw this as proof Dougie was in the physical but notice both the function of the key and its inscription that was on it - a quote GN nerver used by them but only by Cooper in the og series. And them all of talk of WE LIKE INSIDE A DREAM.

I Think the final konfrontation beetween Doppel or Coop betting a chance again meet and this time defeat hls double efter 25 testa and he now succéedded. I Think this Bleeds out in the so so called real World smile like Richard or Tulpa Diane.

Cant write more on my Phoene bit theres s log more SO BEAR WITH ME
Hope to hear more from you. I'm with you very much on the theory that Cooper is still in the Lodge even by the end of season 3 - perhaps. If anyone can tell me exactly when he does escape then I'll listen for sure but I'm not convinced so far.
I am getting more convinced that Cooper didn’t actually leave the Lodge until P18, when we see him stepping out of the Lodge in the same way he stepped in in S2.
I am also trying to understand if the Red Door that lets you back home has some connection with the red drapes that let ones in the Lodge. (I am also left wondering if “It’s in our house now” is meant to indicate the new Dougie that Cooper created in P17).


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Post by NormoftheAndes »

Yaxomoxay -

I associate 'its in our house now' more with the Palmer house, if it has to be linked to a specific location. But what I mean is that the abuse that happened in that house in Twin Peaks has moved into the Lodge and the trauma it caused has created manifold effects in there and the real world. Everything in season 3 feels wrong, like things have just gone haywire and out of control. I link this back to the atomic bomb explosion and how that was an abuse of mankind's ability to tamper with reality - that seemed to be one point where things started to really go wrong.

In terms of the red door and Dougie, there must be something to that. Dougie seems to be innocent, like a 'white lodge' being who just brings goodness and rewards to those in need - so that is one contrast against the hopelessness and depressing reality we see elsewhere in the season.
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