Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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mlsstwrt
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:57 pm

Adolphus wrote:
Rialto wrote:...Lynch and Frost are just doing what they want to do, which seems to be evoking various tones and atmosphere through a series of unconnected vignettes, exploring personal fixations with the atom bomb, 1950s Americana, or aliens, with no regard for audience, narrative or the original Twin Peaks.


NOT unconnected- why don't you wait until the whole series is over before making that kind of a judgment- you may find that the whole contains a multitude of parts.


Because I don't want to wait until the very last scene to start enjoying something.

Sorry for multiple consecutive posts. I just woke up and still coming round.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:47 pm

Adolphus wrote:
Rialto wrote:...Lynch and Frost are just doing what they want to do, which seems to be evoking various tones and atmosphere through a series of unconnected vignettes, exploring personal fixations with the atom bomb, 1950s Americana, or aliens, with no regard for audience, narrative or the original Twin Peaks.


NOT unconnected- why don't you wait until the whole series is over before making that kind of a judgment- you may find that the whole contains a multitude of parts.


Well, thanks for the telling off but, as I think I made clear in the bits of my post you didn't quote, I'm stating a personal opinion. Is that allowed? If we all waited till the end of the series before expressing any thoughts on it, this thread wouldn't exist.

I've read the whole thread; I've heard the argument that you have to watch the whole 18 hours first, or that you should watch each episode at least twice, and then it all becomes clear. I don't buy it.

But, I hope you're right, and I hope I'm wrong. Time will tell. If you can come back here at the end of the series and say 'See? I told you the connections would all become apparent, and it would be great', then I'll be thrilled.

Now, can I go and set up that other thread that was mentioned a while back? The 'Everybody who loves a heated debate, come argue your case for why TPTR Rocks/Sucks' thread?

I don't want to be on it. I just want to be glum in here, in peace.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:54 pm

@MissTWRT, I agree with what you said about changing Laura from a real human being to a supernatural force lessening her as a character.

One thing that stuck with me after FWWM came out, was the number of family sexual abuse survivors coming forward to say that finally here was the most realistic portrayal of what it feels like to be horribly abused by someone you love - for all its surrealism, Lynch had brought out painful truth. Now we're off into magic orbs and alien hokum, it's as though that truth has been lost, forgotten.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Snailhead » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:04 am

Rialto wrote:@MissTWRT, I agree with what you said about changing Laura from a real human being to a supernatural force lessening her as a character.

One thing that stuck with me after FWWM came out, was the number of family sexual abuse survivors coming forward to say that finally here was the most realistic portrayal of what it feels like to be horribly abused by someone you love - for all its surrealism, Lynch had brought out painful truth. Now we're off into magic orbs and alien hokum, it's as though that truth has been lost, forgotten.


That was also my visceral reaction to part 8 when we see Laura's face, but I don't think we should assume that the truth is going to be hidden away. It's also important to remember the way time is malleable in the lodge(s) - maybe it's less of an origin, and more of an idea of the essence of the very human Laura Palmer as an image that echoes into the past from the future, rather than having originated from the 1940s.
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mlsstwrt
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:10 am

I guess we can only comment on what we've seen up until now right and the impact it has on us at the moment we saw it (the visceral impact as you say Snailhead). So yeah it's perfectly possible the Laura orb thing will go a different way. All I can say is that I really hope they don't make Laura some supernatural being. That alone would pretty much kill this for me.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby TheArcher » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:35 am

mlsstwrt wrote:Great first post Rialto. Exactly how I feel, like they're just throwing almost random stuff at a wall and seeing what will stick. It does seem like Lynch had an 18 hour dream and decided to recreate it on film.


Just out of curiosity, have you seen anything by David Lynch before? I'm not being snarky, it's just that Lynch is a wildly different artist today than he was 27 years ago. But even then, he still made Eraserhead (one of the most inaccessible films on the planet) years before so much as dipping a toe into the world of Twin Peaks. And then outdid himself on obscurity with Inland Empire in 2006.

I can't help getting the feeling that hardcore fans of the original series are, generally speaking, not fans of Lynch in any other respect. I can understand why the original gangster fans might feel that way, although I'm genuinely surprised at how taken aback they are by the new season's tone and style.

If you go back and watch, for example, Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive, you'll see that Lynch is doing a lot of the same stuff here. Many things happen in a seemingly inexplicable manner, but in hindsight it becomes clear they carefully done by design. Which certainly might not be to your taste, but it's also nothing new. Pretty standard for him, actually.

A well known critic recently compared Lynch's visual approach in the new season to an artist who invites you into his studio to show you a painting, but only on the condition that he show you the painting in the way that he deems appropriate. The painting is a collection of hidden panels, and he only reveals one panel at a time, briefly, before covering it up again and moving on to the next panel. You might find the experience tedious, pretentious, and exasperating, but you'll likely never forget it.

I think it helps to keep in mind that Lynch cut his teeth on abstract art and painting before he became a filmmaker, and IMO he's often far more committed to creating the stink of a mood or an emotion than he is having things evolve logically and rationally. I also think things will become clearer as the season starts unfolding.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:44 am

TheArcher wrote:
mlsstwrt wrote:Great first post Rialto. Exactly how I feel, like they're just throwing almost random stuff at a wall and seeing what will stick. It does seem like Lynch had an 18 hour dream and decided to recreate it on film.


Just out of curiosity, have you seen anything by David Lynch before? I'm not being snarky, it's just that Lynch is a wildly different artist today than he was 27 years ago. But even then, he still made Eraserhead (one of the most inaccessible films on the planet) years before so much as dipping a toe into the world of Twin Peaks. And then outdid himself on obscurity with Inland Empire in 2006.

I can't help getting the feeling that hardcore fans of the original series are, generally speaking, not fans of Lynch in any other respect. I can understand why the original gangster fans might feel that way, although I'm genuinely surprised at how taken aback they are by the new season's tone and style.

If you go back and watch, for example, Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive, you'll see that Lynch is doing a lot of the same stuff here. Many things happen in a seemingly inexplicable manner, but in hindsight it becomes clear they carefully done by design. Which certainly might not be to your taste, but it's also nothing new. Pretty standard for him, actually.

A well known critic recently compared Lynch's visual approach in the new season to an artist who invites you into his studio to show you a painting, but only on the condition that he show you the painting in the way that he deems appropriate. The painting is a collection of hidden panels, and he only reveals one panel at a time, briefly, before covering it up again and moving on to the next panel. You might find the experience tedious, pretentious, and exasperating, but you'll likely never forget it.

I think it helps to keep in mind that Lynch cut his teeth on abstract art and painting before he became a filmmaker, and IMO he's often far more committed to creating the stink of a mood or an emotion than he is having things evolve logically and rationally. I also think things will become clearer as the season starts unfolding.


Hi, no that's fine. Twin Peaks aside - I liked Wild at Heart a lot. Liked the Straight Story. Loved Blue Velvet. Adored Mulholland Drive. Enjoyed Lost Highway tremendously. Found Dune a mess. Didn't like Eraserhead (which I guess is key here). Oh and Inland Empire was tough to sit through but I found myself thinking about it a fair amount after I left the cinema. Have never rewatched it though.

But, and this is crucial, my love for Twin Peaks is of a different order than anything else he's done. Maybe this is important to the 'split' - i.e. whether you're more of a TP fan or more of a Lynch fan. Like most on here I'm both but I'd rather keep TP/FWWM and lose all his other stuff than the other way round.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby TheArcher » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:51 am

mlsstwrt wrote:All I can say is that I really hope they don't make Laura some supernatural being. That alone would pretty much kill this for me.
Haha yes, and even then I could have done with what was presumably some sort of origins-backstory in episode 8. Each to their own, but when it comes to Lynch, I usually get a kick out of simply not knowing (especially if it "feels" right, or seems to make sense within the overall world/context he's created).

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed the episode, but doing what he did tends to cause viewers hell-bent on brute-forcing the jigsaw pieces together go from engaged and curious to climbing up the walls with frustration while frantically asking the wrong kinds of questions (ie. "What's the overall timeline here?"; "Was that a young Sarah Palmer who had the bug crawl into her mouth?"; "Did the nuclear explosion cause Bob, or did Bob already exist?" etc.).

For all I know he may have written that part into the story way back when in 1990. I enjoyed the execution, but to me it felt a bit reductive nonetheless. I never thought of Twin Peaks as having an overarching governing 'mythology', and I suspect that to start giving it one now would be a serious baseball bat to the kneecaps.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby TheArcher » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:57 am

Hi, no that's fine. Twin Peaks aside - I liked Wild at Heart a lot. Liked the Straight Story. Loved Blue Velvet. Adored Mulholland Drive. Enjoyed Lost Highway tremendously. Found Dune a mess. Didn't like Eraserhead (which I guess is key here). Oh and Inland Empire was tough to sit through but I found myself thinking about it a fair amount after I left the cinema. Have never rewatched it though.
We have plenty in common already! Lost Highway is probably still my favourite.

But, and this is crucial, my love for Twin Peaks is of a different order than anything else he's done. Maybe this is important to the 'split' - i.e. whether you're more of a TP fan or more of a Lynch fan. Like most on here I'm both but I'd rather keep TP/FWWM and lose all his other stuff than the other way round.
Now that's the honesty I like! Interesting...I feel differently. I must confess, I only watched the first two seasons of Twin Peaks earlier this year and found them to be a bit 'skim milk', but still enjoyed much of the quirks they had to offer. Really admire Fire Walk With Me (which I also saw only recently); it's emotionally-charged ballsiness.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:04 am

hey counterpaul -

When things seem important in a mysterious way and when folks with badges and "shiny metal objects on (their) chest(s)" start inspecting cryptic documents and throwing around coordinates and whatnot, our senses get prickly and we sit up and start looking really closely at everything for important clues. It isn't the clues themselves that interest Lynch, it's that special kind of attention.


I pretty much agree with this and also what you said about seeing Lynch's films from the point of view of surrealism rather than a code to be cracked. For me the ep 8 golden orb/ giant / woodsmen / (pink) rough sea ( cosmic consciousness getting choppy) / high tower / single window in massive blank wall imagery also fits in with this. They are not literal - they are signs. That doesn't mean they are metaphors or clues. They are signs that stand for themselves, there as a sort of shorthand visual handwriting - the simplest way of saying ' FBI agent' isn't to present a complex character with a failed marriage and emotional backstory and a complex set of ethical quandaries and a fractious relationship with his superiors, it is to present a fine upstanding guy with a clear moral code, a firm chin, and a nice b/w suit. It's all very literal - if you got the moonight, hey! you get the moonlight sonata aswell.

Lynch's paintings are like this, he doesn't spend hours painting a hyperrealist guy, and naturalistic rendering of flames in a fireplace, you just get the a few elements, simplified to their essence: fire! man! flame! open door! - and the rest of it is all texture and rendering. The relationships are not stated. This also chimes with why in TP and his other films he is not interested atall in a character's psychology or motivations. He is doing something else.

As you say, that 'something else' comes from surrealism. I found myself thinking about Bunuel, reading your recent post I quoted from. He uses police and priests and people in suits and bourgeois intellectuals in much the same way that Lynch uses UFO's or FBI or Police Badge or large box of files - they are unknoweables, a mystery, of course everyone wants to 'solve' a mystery ( your ' special kind of attention') but the real point of it is simply that it is - mysterious and beyond our grasp or comprehension. As incidentally, he often portrays women, as seen from the male perspective. Whereas his portrayal of female friendship isn't like that atall. It is all about complicity.

I also found myself thinking ( reading yr post ) of the way he shoehorns bits of other films in, his own or other people's, and makes so many glaring genre quotes, could make a whole list of those from this series. Again these seem to me to be like ' signs'/ - elements in a pattern - pieces of a puzzle that is just meant to be put together, rather than ' solved'. He uses music like this too - his use of music ( or sound) isn't ' background' - it's representational. Get the picture?

Lastly, your post got me thinking about when he started off making movies in the mid 70's, and what was going on around him at the time. The ' industrial urban soundtrack' is something alot of underground musicians were trying to do in the mid- late 70's. His use of it in eraserhead stripped it back to its simplest form - ditch the music, don't dress it up - just present the weird clanking sounds and hum and crackle for what they are. At the same time, as part of this kind of dystopian urban subculture, there were alot of crazy conspiracy writings and comics, robert anton wilson for instance, alot of people liked this stuff.
Anyway the one i am really thinking about here, from about 1979 onwards, was the ' Church of the SubGenius' - a weird fake cult - abit like a counterculture version of Alfred Jarry's pataphysics - who worshipped a mysterious and unknowable authority figure called.... J. R. "Bob" Dobbs....aka....BOB! I have always seen ( rightly or wrongly) seen the TP BOB to be a sly nod to this, and all the UFO FBI procedural tea-leaf studying gubbins to be a nod in the directions of things like Pataphysics and Subgenius - Lynch's roots, as much as cheesy fifties music and twangy guitars are.

It's all a collage, really ( albeit one on a massive scale with a $100 million budget).

have enjoyed reading your posts, thanks.

ps - i have just gone back and read a few more of your posts. I was pretty interested in what you had to say about time/pacing/ the rythmn of the thing, playing as larger part as the imagery or the sound. There are alot of places where Lynch doesn't really use ' scenes ' so much as ' tableau ' - you are in a place for a certain amount of time, often from a fixed viewpoint ( the camera doesn't move, it just turns from left to right or focusses in or out), long enough to ' feel it' or ' get it' or soak up the ambience, or take in the details - and then fade to black, fade up and you are in another time/place. The so-called boring bits ( like the spades being painted, which i really liked for the mechanical heath robinson detail, and the fact that it stayed with it and showed you a thing being MADE in real time) or the floor-sweeping scene, are as you said, breathing spots. Time is concertina, it has to breath out as well as in, and sometimes you have to pause for breath before the next long haul. Before the atom bomb you get one of the shortest scenes of the entire series - badcoop waking up from the dead. I haven't timed it, but it is no longer than it need be, i would guess 15 seconds max. And then you get 15 minutes of freeform plunge. I like the way that the ' 18 hour film' structure gives the space for these tight/ loose contrasts. Which are everywhere really. Another example in ep 8 was the simple layering/ fading old school FX of the woodsman scene ( again this was allowed to go on long enough to become a 'piece' rather than a ' scene - as with the convenience store tableau) contrasted against the ultra-modern super-naturalistic digital rendering of the atom bomb or the insect. And the b/w vs colour . The whole episode seemed to be constructed around a sort of yin-yang idea - also, of course, echoed in the so-called ' creation myth ' laura/bob archetype good and evil thing that so many people found over-expository. Personally, i thought it was just another visual rhyme , another example of turning the contrast knob up to max. I didn't take it literally, anyway.

Like you I am a professional editor for the last 25 years ( of sound rather than film) so it has been very interesting to read comments on this series from a perspective similar to my own. In the real world ( cough ) i on't know anyone who watches this series. It has been the first TV programme I have seen that has made me think enough about how it is made, put together, structured, and so on, that I have wanted to write about it or read what other people have to say about it in any detail. Your posts have focussed my attention on some aspects i hadn't thought about. Your idea of ' inside-out' character, and this being character driven from the point of view of how people PERCEIVE rather than their motivations, is not something I had considered. I had my own ideas about this which were a little different - more to do with the actual scenes or separate units themselves becoming the character - the glass box, the red room, the pink sea, the casino, the b/w movie theatre, the falling through space, are just as much characters as the actual people. The characters become the images and vice versa - i have not thought this one through. If you start a separate thread about this i will read it with interest. For now: thanks again for your words.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Metamorphia » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:00 am

Rialto wrote:@MissTWRT, I agree with what you said about changing Laura from a real human being to a supernatural force lessening her as a character.

One thing that stuck with me after FWWM came out, was the number of family sexual abuse survivors coming forward to say that finally here was the most realistic portrayal of what it feels like to be horribly abused by someone you love - for all its surrealism, Lynch had brought out painful truth. Now we're off into magic orbs and alien hokum, it's as though that truth has been lost, forgotten.


And this is why I'm almost certain a lot of people have got the wrong end of the gist with the Laura orb scene. There's no way in hell Lynch would undo something like that.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:28 am

It's like if Peter Weir made a sequel to 'picnic at hanging rock' where Miranda appears on the planet Venus which is inhabited by singing otters.

Getting my hair cut just now. This line prompted a literally dangerous laugh out loud.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LurkerAtTheThreshold » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:45 am

AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:It's like if Peter Weir made a sequel to 'picnic at hanging rock' where Miranda appears on the planet Venus which is inhabited by singing otters.

Getting my hair cut just now. This line prompted a literally dangerous laugh out loud.


Haha. Glad you liked it.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:16 am

Metamorphia wrote:
Rialto wrote:@MissTWRT, I agree with what you said about changing Laura from a real human being to a supernatural force lessening her as a character.

One thing that stuck with me after FWWM came out, was the number of family sexual abuse survivors coming forward to say that finally here was the most realistic portrayal of what it feels like to be horribly abused by someone you love - for all its surrealism, Lynch had brought out painful truth. Now we're off into magic orbs and alien hokum, it's as though that truth has been lost, forgotten.


And this is why I'm almost certain a lot of people have got the wrong end of the gist with the Laura orb scene. There's no way in hell Lynch would undo something like that.


FWIW I never took Bob as a metaphor, borne out of Leland's abuse. I've always seen Bob as real. That said, I did love the ambiguity of FWWM. In TP the Series Leland was borderline innocent, a 'babe in the woods'. But in FWWM we see that it's not all Bob. This comes through in the 'Between Two Worlds' interviews where Leland's face eerily darkens as he goes from talking about how much he loved Sarah to when he started seeing other girls, some young enough to be his daughter.

I don't know how on earth Laura as supernatural being would fit into any of this so I'm going to hope that the above posters are right when they say this isn't the direction Lynch is going.

Edit: Actually thinking about Between Two Worlds gives me some hope. It was entirely consistent with the Twin Peaks I know and love and had heart to spare. It wasn't that long ago right, so Lynch can't have become utterly disillusioned with TP and these characters since then!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:31 am

A footnote to my reply to counterpaul above.

It’s been pointed out elsewhere that IOC may also help explain 1. and 2. above, the “shoddy” (NB the quotemarks)/unconvincing dialogue and acting, such as EvilCoop’s robotic way of delivering cingeworthy lines about female moistness – that like other seemingly awful moments, they may be clues to L&F’s game here. The thinking again is Stop debating with the Ultras the awfulness of such moments. Accept they are awful beyond mere incompetence, and that this may hint at some other purpose.

What are convincing dialogue and acting, usually? Dialogue and acting that convince the audience that these are real people really speaking to each other, that help suspension of disbelief in other words. But there is no general attempt at suspension of disbelief in this show and the way IOC accounts for this has been explained above.

So all The Return’s “shoddiness” may be accounted for to a greater or lesser degree by IOC.

More specifically, it’s been an interesting exercise to reconsider particularly troubling aspects such as the portrayal of people of colour, the % of sexually active young women gruesomely murdered onscreen, Cole as one of the very few warmhearted 3D characters, etc. It’s not been hard to see them making more sense if the IOC idea is correct and The Return is in fact all about Coop’s psyche.

Where this would leave those claiming there are no such troubling aspects, the dialogue has been not just convincing but Mad Men-grade throughout, their suspension of disbelief has been uninterrupted, they’ve been there every single enthralling moment in the insurance office, identifying completely with every Emmy-worthy performance, ducking behind the couch whenever EvilCoop smoulders, trying out his tremendous moistness lines at the bus stop, I’m not sure. Such a wrongfooting of the hardcore fanbase seems quite cruel, if classically Lynch.

To say nothing of the possibility that the ageing L&F and others may also have lost their touch to some extent, that we’re seeing not “shoddiness” OR shoddiness but maybe both. That’s the danger with the adoption of “shoddiness”. To make it work in any honourable way you really Should be at the top of your game. Of course, as you’ll know professionally, what charlatans sometimes do when they suspect they’re operating below par is insert clearly deliberate “flaws”, with or without a kitsch/camp flourish, to muddy the waters and imply that other flaws are deliberate. “Well, it’s naive to think I was ever aiming for so-called high-quality in the first place. I’ve transcended all of that.”

Anyway, again we’re left wondering if IOC may ever prove worth it, especially if it’s restricted to one tiny corner of a small TP site, fully comprehended by just the one Finnegans Wake rereader (the FW quips will stop soon!) and then garbled by his bewildered apprentice.
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